Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Sonicninja115]

I suppose it depends on the player though, as I have done that in order to scare opponents and instead they go in and try to land anything to put me in trouble.

When stalling to the shield back, I MALLC into smash art and see if I can do something. If not, I cancel it and then switch to jump. If the opponent gets the hang of it, I switch to speed to try stay low. after all that, pretty much Shield art is usable again.

I find that when I am constantly MALLC'ing, the opponent gets sorta scared, unsure of what I am going to do next. I am practicing MALLC Roulette now, as that is an amazing tactic IMO.

 

[notyourparadigm]

notyourparadigm raised something really neat to me. She was playing against somebody on stream, and her going to monado smash gave the opponent enough fear to keep him from attack her much, giving her time to let monado shield come back.

It's a great idea, and I'm going to start implementing it. I usually like to use Monado Jump to dodge around out of reach as I wait for Monado Shield, but maybe it would be safer to use Monado Smash in the circumstance we are both at kill percents.

If you guys are interested, it was from the 1v1 at the end of game 3 from this doubles set here. I'm writing up a couple of posts from LANWAR X for the tourney results / video archives threads right now-- suffice it to say, it was quite a fun tournament. And I do like the strategy in theory-- if my opponent over commits to anything, they die because of Smash + rage. Otherwise, I get to wait for Shield to return. Of course, if I mess up my neutral I die... but if I practice, hopefully I can avoid that for at least the length of Smash art.

 

[gridatttack]

I have to wonder, what would a good option to go for the kill with Smash art + rage be?
On the edge, the natural choice would be a throw. But what near the middle of the stage?

I have never, ever landed an ASOOS, but it sounds it would be nice to get. Other thing that comes to mind is a forward tilt, and perhaps an U tilt?

Also for some reason, I always seems to run into the misfortune of having smash d throw to barely miss the kill. King of makes me want to make a table of the percents every character dies, like they did with Ness B throw.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I get plenty of mileage online with run-cancelled smash UTilt. Air Slash with rage is one of the most frustrating moves in the game honestly. People fall out of it ALL THE TIME for me.

 

[Masonomace]

I get plenty of mileage online with run-cancelled smash UTilt. Air Slash with rage is one of the most frustrating moves in the game honestly. People fall out of it ALL THE TIME for me.

Note: This implies that you hit with the sweetspot near the startup of Air Slash from the ground.

Jump art becomes your friend at that point. I think it would be good for you to also test your own accumulated Rage effect against a spread of different weight classes. For example, you can mash B for Jump art Air Slash from 0 - 100% on Jigglypuff & still connect both hits, but then can never Smash art Air Slash Jigglypuff even at 0%. On the other hand, it's kinda meaningless to go for a likely kill confirm with Jump art Air Slash with 100% Rage on Bowser because he barely reaches within range of the second hit. I would opt to go for Smash art Air Slash on heavies or fast fallers almost all the time, & Jump art Air Slash for the floaties or lightweights.

Players I fight against are slowly getting used to DI'ing behind us to avoid getting hit by the large horizontal slash in front of us. Reverse Air Slash is an option I feel will become a 50/50 if we predict their DI in the future. Be prepared for it if you haven't already. Either that, or delay the second hit & drifting away / backwards to catch their DI angle may net success.

I have to wonder, what would a good option to go for the kill with Smash art + rage be?
On the edge, the natural choice would be a throw. But what near the middle of the stage?

I have never, ever landed an ASOOS, but it sounds it would be nice to get. Other thing that comes to mind is a forward tilt, and perhaps an U tilt?

Also for some reason, I always seems to run into the misfortune of having smash d throw to barely miss the kill. King of makes me want to make a table of the percents every character dies, like they did with Ness B throw.

This is implying we have a window of opportunity to use a Smash art augmented move for kill confirming? Then I'd choose Usmash hitting with the ground-only knockup into the second hit, if we were going for the strongest kill option from mid-stage. Forward smash angled up is also fearsome, but it's naturally better to use vertical-launching kill moves such as Utilt or Usmash in that case.

As far as ASOOS goes, it would be best to use on heavies or fast fallers so that you know they can't evade the second hit. Reversing Air Slash out of shield may also be required in case they perform a move that allows them to try crossing up from behind us. But back to the kill options, I think these do just fine with Smash art from center stage:

• Utilt
• any smash attack
• Bair or preferably Uair
• Back slash from behind or Air Slash

Those moves listed are assuming we want to end their stock relatively early, since Monado Smash + Rage is a nasty thing to behold.

 

[Berserker.]

I have to wonder, what would a good option to go for the kill with Smash art + rage be?
On the edge, the natural choice would be a throw. But what near the middle of the stage?

I have never, ever landed an ASOOS, but it sounds it would be nice to get. Other thing that comes to mind is a forward tilt, and perhaps an U tilt?

Dash cancelled u-tilt and f-tilt in smash art are good options. Air slash, although faster and more powerful than u-tilt and f-tilt, is very punishable if you whiff it and it gets screwed over by rage anyway. Perfect pivoting with u-tilt + smash art also works really well. You can catch landing attempts and kill relatively early while you're at it.

Edit: Smash attacks are also scary with rage so landing a read with any of them would result into a ridiculously early KO but then again, be careful because it's a high risk-high reward tactic. I'd say that smash attacks are "good" options to go for only because of the reward but even then, it's still risky to go for.

Your only safe KO options with rage are u-tilt and f-tilt. Oh, and also b-air if you want to stuff defensive options and approaches but take note that b-air's landing lag is pretty bad and smash art's damage reduction doesn't help at all when it comes to making b-air safe on shield. It's still a solid and relatively safe option regardless if used right.

Also for some reason, I always seems to run into the misfortune of having smash d throw to barely miss the kill. King of makes me want to make a table of the percents every character dies, like they did with Ness B throw.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ill-kill-you-monado-smash-art-rage-ko-percentages-on-mario.405735/

 

[DarkenedHalo115]

Smash is really deadly with high rage.Any mistake the opponents makes can be a stock gone at 50%.Airslash outta sheild kills real early,a down throw/forward throw can kills early,a bair or smash will hit like superman.So basically,one misplaced or unsafe move could mean the death of them.Or they camp and you can put shield or jump on.Like you guys said,smash has quite a mental impact on your foe since 40% is now kill percent for them.
The downside is that nothing is safe on shield,any little hit will kill you and your extra damage you did if you didn't kill is horrible.
But when your gonna die even in shield you might as well push yourself and go crazy.I tried this though and it certainly pressured some of my opponents into making mistakes,most fatal.

 

[Masonomace]

Smash is really deadly with high rage.Any mistake the opponents makes can be a stock gone at 50%.Airslash outta sheild kills real early,a down throw/forward throw can kills early,a bair or smash will hit like superman.So basically,one misplaced or unsafe move could mean the death of them.Or they camp and you can put shield or jump on.Like you guys said,smash has quite a mental impact on your foe since 40% is now kill percent for them.
The downside is that nothing is safe on shield,any little hit will kill you and your extra damage you did if you didn't kill is horrible.
But when your gonna die even in shield you might as well push yourself and go crazy.I tried this though and it certainly pressured some of my opponents into making mistakes,most fatal.

O_o yo what? You sayin' that a stock can be sealed at 40% or 50%? I think you're thinking of Hyper Smash art's work. Monado Smash with maximum Rage effect is strong, but not THAT strong, unless it's either a lightweight, floaty, or both. For me, max Rage Smash art Air Slash near the ledge killed Zard around the ~70% marker which is still really good, but nothing like 40 - 50% range.

Already being off-stage can seal a stock in the ~40 - 50% range, but on the stage where we either use Air Slash, a smash attack, a DAir meteor, or something else, then I don't see a kill confirm until they're at least 70% or higher. Heavies from my attempts die around 80 - 100% at the earliest, but usually it's about 110 - 120% that's the death percentage when using a safe move.

 

[DarkenedHalo115]

I mean characters like Rosa,Kirby,pika
The lightweights that have trouble really getting the kills.Alothough I exaggerated,with bad DI you can di at that percent, especially on stages with small boundaries like duck hunt.

 

[Sonicninja115]

ZeRo made a video, it's pretty good, though I think he under appreciates MALLC.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z26AnrpMKUE

 

[WindHero]

That was a pretty good video indeed. Seems like there is a lot I could learn from it, especially regarding the mobility Arts. My Jump Shulk is nothing like his... And I was grinning widely watching all those replays. I kinda see how he says Pika is a hard MU, but maybe he just really wasn't feeling the Smash AS OoS. I gotta get better at predicting ledge get-ups though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

That was a pretty good video indeed. Seems like there is a lot I could learn from it, especially regarding the mobility Arts. My Jump Shulk is nothing like his... And I was grinning widely watching all those replays. I kinda see how he says Pika is a hard MU, but maybe he just really wasn't feeling the Smash AS OoS. I gotta get better at predicting ledge get-ups though.

My tactic is shield at the ledge, then you can jump OoS into Fair or Grab/Dtilt/Dsmash.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Yo I usually think Zero's videos oversimplify things but that was actually really similar to my thoughts on Shulk. I kinda agree about MALLC. I use it when it's convenient, but I find myself cancelling my dash with it more often because the ability to reset to a complete neutral from a run or dash is something very few characters have while everyone and their mother can autocancel. I REALLY need to master perfect pivoting though. I'm way too inconsistent at it but it's just obviously good for Shulk.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yo I usually think Zero's videos oversimplify things but that was actually really similar to my thoughts on Shulk. I kinda agree about MALLC. I use it when it's convenient, but I find myself cancelling my dash with it more often because the ability to reset to a complete neutral from a run or dash is something very few characters have while everyone and their mother can autocancel. I REALLY need to master perfect pivoting though. I'm way too inconsistent at it but it's just obviously good for Shulk.

I use MALLC as safe as possible, I don't see a need to not use it. If I am going to approach with Fair, I might as well cancel it.

I agree that it isn't super useful, but it is still very good.

I am trying to get dash cancelling down, I just need to get the timing and figure out more practical use for it.

I have been practicing PP for half a year now, and I am getting pretty good at it. I am not quite good enough to use it in a match yet, but I am getting it 75% of the time now.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I mostly use as it a quicker grounded approach, particularly if I'm planning to use Shield or Buster. You can run at your opponent with an option besides our crummy dash attack and grab. Plus if you get the timing of the activation down it has a few invincibility frames at the start of the activation. If you start it too early though you end up in your opponent's face.

 

[WindHero]

So, after fooling around a bit on the 3DS, something occurred to me: I really need to learn to fast fall often while on stage. I was trying to Jump around Battlefield like in that video, but all I got was a lot of slow falling and stopping on platforms. I know especially that Link players always FF when given the chance, so idk why I wasn't doing it more.

Really wish I knew my stages better on Wii U, a lot of times I'm just guessing where to take opponents. I read through the stage thread again for a refresher, but it only does so much. I asked over there what the best option is for fighting Sheik, Yoshi, and Diddy as well, as the current players-to-beat main those characters here.

 

[gridatttack]

I have to wonder, does the invincibility frames of an Activated art transfer when you are making an attack?

IIRC, there was this video showcasing MALLC, and there was a part in which he taunted and in the middle of the taunt, the art activated, and a Fox tried to grab him, but the invincibility frames were still active in the taunt.

I wonder if this can happen to an aerial move, so you ignore the damage and proceed to hit the opponent, so you don't trade off.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I have to wonder, does the invincibility frames of an Activated art transfer when you are making an attack?

IIRC, there was this video showcasing MALLC, and there was a part in which he taunted and in the middle of the taunt, the art activated, and a Fox tried to grab him, but the invincibility frames were still active in the taunt.

I wonder if this can happen to an aerial move, so you ignore the damage and proceed to hit the opponent, so you don't trade off.

Or it could lend invincibility to a smash attack, it might even be possible to make it completely safe.

 

[Berserker.]

I have to wonder, does the invincibility frames of an Activated art transfer when you are making an attack?

IIRC, there was this video showcasing MALLC, and there was a part in which he taunted and in the middle of the taunt, the art activated, and a Fox tried to grab him, but the invincibility frames were still active in the taunt.

I wonder if this can happen to an aerial move, so you ignore the damage and proceed to hit the opponent, so you don't trade off.

From what I remember, the invincibility doesn't transfer when you execute an attack. Not sure but, every time I try to attack out of MALLC, I usually get jabbed or grabbed (assuming that I'm really close to the opponent) so I was under the notion that the invincibility is active strictly during a portion of the activation animation frames

 

[gridatttack]

From what I remember, the invincibility doesn't transfer when you execute an attack. Not sure but, every time I try to attack out of MALLC, I usually get jabbed or grabbed (assuming that I'm really close to the opponent) so I was under the notion that the invincibility is active strictly during a portion of the activation animation frames

No, I mean like, you are in the middle of the attacking animation, and the art activates, not after a MALLC, as when you move, you override the invincibility animation frames with the action you perform.

Like in that example I listed. You taunt while having readied an art, and the art activates in the middle of your taunt. Your taunt animation doesn't get interrupted, but the invincibility frames still take in effect, because the fox couldn't grab him.

In theory, if that's the case, you can have an attack that wont be interrupted and won't trade if someone is attacking you, due to the invincibility frames.

 

[Berserker.]

No, I mean like, you are in the middle of the attacking animation, and the art activates, not after a MALLC, as when you move, you override the invincibility animation frames with the action you perform.

Like in that example I listed. You taunt while having readied an art, and the art activates in the middle of your taunt. Your taunt animation doesn't get interrupted, but the invincibility frames still take in effect, because the fox couldn't grab him.

In theory, if that's the case, you can have an attack that wont be interrupted and won't trade if someone is attacking you, due to the invincibility frames.

Oh. Whoops. I'm not too sure about that. If anyone can test this then that'd be great.

On the note of art activation, I found something weird. So I was getting f-air'd (multi-hit) by Pikachu and my speed art was ready to activate. At that very moment of the art's activation, I managed to vision counter out of Pikachu's f-air. I can provide a GIF of this if you guys are interested (though it'd take a while to produce)

 

[Masonomace]

You only possess intangibility frames when Shulk attempts performing the pose. The reason Fox's grab may have whiffed Shulk while his Down Taunt was going on probably is from the taunt putting Shulk out of the Z-axis plane. That's my guess anyway.

On the note of art activation, I found something weird. So I was getting f-air'd (multi-hit) by Pikachu and my speed art was ready to activate. At that very moment of the art's activation, I managed to vision counter out of Pikachu's f-air. I can provide a GIF of this if you guys are interested (though it'd take a while to produce)

I'm down to see this GIF

 

[gridatttack]

You only possess intangibility frames when Shulk attempts performing the pose. The reason Fox's grab may have whiffed Shulk while his Down Taunt was going on probably is from the taunt putting Shulk out of the Z-axis plane. That's my guess anyway.

I'm down to see this GIF

I see.
I'm trying to find the video, because that sounds like the answer to why that happened, but I remember seeing Shulk flashing while in the taunt, like when you get in the pose.

Though I cant test either due to the lack of a second player locally.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So I may be late to the party on this one but does Shulk's pivot grab have like SIGNIFICANTLY more range than his other two options? Seems like I can nab people out of the sky with this thing sometimes whereas I can shield an attack right next to me and not get a standing grab. Or is this just speed mode pivots being goofy as usual?

 

[Masonomace]

So I may be late to the party on this one but does Shulk's pivot grab have like SIGNIFICANTLY more range than his other two options? Seems like I can nab people out of the sky with this thing sometimes whereas I can shield an attack right next to me and not get a standing grab. Or is this just speed mode pivots being goofy as usual?

Yes. Pivot grab can grab characters crouching to the floor like WFT & Kirby, while standing grab & dash grab cannot. Pivot grab also has a better grab in general since you snatch people in the air more than dash grab or standing grab. Pivot grab in general is awesome & better.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yes. Pivot grab can grab characters crouching to the floor like WFT & Kirby, while standing grab & dash grab cannot. Pivot grab also has a better grab in general since you snatch people in the air more than dash grab or standing grab. Pivot grab in general is awesome & better.

What about Pika? Does it always grab him?

 

[Masonomace]

What about Pika? Does it always grab him?

Wii Fit Trainer's crouch height for her / his head is shorter than Pikachu's crouch. So, yes pivot grab always grabs Pikachu crouching.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Wii Fit Trainer's crouch height for her / his head is shorter than Pikachu's crouch. So, yes pivot grab always grabs Pikachu crouching.

Awesome! And it is possible to pivot grab in place right? with a single DD into grab? or does that count as a dash grab?

 

[Masonomace]

Awesome! And it is possible to pivot grab in place right? with a single DD into grab? or does that count as a dash grab?

Not exactly in place, but you tap one direction to dash / foxtrot & then immediately tap to the other direction while pressing grab simultaneously. You can pivot grab out of a DD as long as you don't get the dash grab misinput.

One good way of telling you have the shortened pivot grab is trying it with Monado Speed. Performing a pivot grab immediately will only produce a small slide whereas a normal pivot grab will travel a large distance.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Not exactly in place, but you tap one direction to dash / foxtrot & then immediately tap to the other direction while pressing grab simultaneously. You can pivot grab out of a DD as long as you don't get the dash grab misinput.

One good way of telling you have the shortened pivot grab is trying it with Monado Speed. Performing a pivot grab immediately will only produce a small slide whereas a normal pivot grab will travel a large distance.

Thanks! With the combos in the combo thread, do the true combos count on the meter? or do some of them not count but are still true. I can't seem to get Jab to true into AS...

 

[Masonomace]

Thanks! With the combos in the combo thread, do the true combos count on the meter? or do some of them not count but are still true. I can't seem to get Jab to true into AS...

I feel that depends. On the right character it can probably work, but with Jab1 being weight-based knockback, I predict that it's better to do with some Rage accumulated. Fast Fallers probably get affected by this greatly.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I feel that depends. On the right character it can probably work, but with Jab1 being weight-based knockback, I predict that it's better to do with some Rage accumulated. Fast Fallers probably get affected by this greatly.

Oh, thanks! I was doing it in training mode so that explains it.

 

[erico9001]

Hi! So I guess twitter was freaking out about what I called SABDJCUS (the really long sliding up smash), and now it's called Monadacus. But that's not what I'm here about.

I've found a new way to get Monado Speed's walk while Vanilla, and a way you can change arts while doing so! However, I must warn you right now, it's really hard to input. The input is not at all complicated, but it's damn hard.

I have found that if you walk really, REALLY, slowly, you can activate your neutral special regardless of the fact that your joystick is slightly tilted to the side for the walk. I found this slightly from accident, though I was trying to discover a way of doing very that at the same time.

Anyways, you can then activate or deactivate your monado art while technically walking! Use? If monado speed deactivates while you're walking, you will have the same speed stats and such. So, after deactivating monado speed as you're walking really slow, just speed up again, and you will be at monado speed's full walk speed! Hooray! But! If you can deactivate the art while walking, you can also start to activate an art while walking! So you can be walking at monado speed's walk speed while changing into a different art, something we've never been able to do before. Application? I'm not sure. Once the monado art activates, you will be put into the activation animation, and the speed will be cancelled. Maybe switch into smash to try for the d-throw kill? I don't know. But I just needed to post about it here before I forgot.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was labbing Shulk a bit, and I came across something. How good is Nair as a ledge option? If the opponent jumps, they get hit, if they stand or fall back into a jump they also get hit. It might even cover rolls.

Also, is Nair a good option for getting back ON the stage? It looks like a drop back Nair covers most options besides shield.

Thoughts?

 

[gridatttack]

Just saw Monadacus. Now, I'm willing to learn that ASAP, and mess around. I wonder if a Speed Forward Throw Monadacus works in the earliest kill percents.

Also, Nair is good for covering the ledge options. With Nair, depending on the timing, you can cover the roll, get up and jump. I managed to get people wondering how to get back for quite some time. Thought some characters have the aerials to nullify this.

And dunno about getting with Nair on stage. Will have to try it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Just saw Monadacus. Now, I'm willing to learn that ASAP, and mess around. I wonder if a Speed Forward Throw Monadacus works in the earliest kill percents.

Also, Nair is good for covering the ledge options. With Nair, depending on the timing, you can cover the roll, get up and jump. I managed to get people wondering how to get back for quite some time. Thought some characters have the aerials to nullify this.

And dunno about getting with Nair on stage. Will have to try it.

I wonder if it can be used with MALLC? Or at least switch a monado. I think there are many uses for it, and unless someone else has, I want to look into it some more.

 

[Zatchiel]

I was labbing Shulk a bit, and I came across something. How good is Nair as a ledge option? If the opponent jumps, they get hit, if they stand or fall back into a jump they also get hit. It might even cover rolls.

Also, is Nair a good option for getting back ON the stage? It looks like a drop back Nair covers most options besides shield.

Thoughts?

N-air versus an opponent on the ledge is good for covering options or bating a habit, like ledge a hopped aerial. If they go for an aerial during your landing frames, you get a free forward Vision. In any art, this can be deadly. Especially if their aerial is particularly powerful. They can die below 100% from across the screen easily.

N-air back onstage is much riskier. Since all it takes is shield to negate, and there isn't much of a reason to avoid a Shulk on the ledge to begin with, you won't see it used often. An all-or-nothing f-air or empty ledgehop back onstage (so you can shield or dodge asap) is less risky business.

 

[Sonicninja115]

N-air versus an opponent on the ledge is good for covering options or bating a habit, like ledge a hopped aerial. If they go for an aerial during your landing frames, you get a free forward Vision. In any art, this can be deadly. Especially if their aerial is particularly powerful. They can die below 100% from across the screen easily.

N-air back onstage is much riskier. Since all it takes is shield to negate, and there isn't much of a reason to avoid a Shulk on the ledge to begin with, you won't see it used often. An all-or-nothing f-air or empty ledgehop back onstage (so you can shield or dodge asap) is less risky business.

What about starting a mix-up game with it? You could go for a tomahawk instead, or a DJ into MALLC to get the Art change.

 

[Zatchiel]

What about starting a mix-up game with it? You could go for a tomahawk instead, or a DJ into MALLC to get the Art change.

Yeah, that's what I was suggesting. You could fit it somewhere as a mix-up, I just wouldn't say it comes in handy too often. In either scenario. It's too sluggish to be reliable.

Then again, you can say that about the near-whole of Shulk's arsenal. So what I'm actually saying is do whatever's comfortable. I'm personally not comfortable using N-air from the ledge at all (unless I'm in Jump art, so I can soooooar), so I am more than a little biased.

Your ideas are good, just bare in mind that I suck.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yeah, that's what I was suggesting. You could fit it somewhere as a mix-up, I just wouldn't say it comes in handy too often. In either scenario. It's too sluggish to be reliable.

Then again, you can say that about the near-whole of Shulk's arsenal. So what I'm actually saying is do whatever's comfortable. I'm personally not comfortable using N-air from the ledge at all (unless I'm in Jump art, so I can soooooar), so I am more than a little biased.

Your ideas are good, just bare in mind that I suck.

I don't have fundamentals right now, but I have a lot of tech skill, don't be so hard on yourself.

There is a way that might be safe on shield. Does anyone have Nairs Shieldstun equation?

Edit: What is better? I was thinking about art transitions when a though struck me. Is it better to DI or to activate an art? If I get hit be Fox's Usmash at 60%, I know I am going to live. So would it be better to use my time in the air to MALLC or art change? If there is the possibility of a follow-up from Fox, then it would definitely be best too DI, but otherwise, I think it might be best to not DI and activate and Art instead.