Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[XeVioN]

Well this looks like a cool place.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Well I found something funny, but mostly useless about Shulk's (and probably many others) jab. If you whiff the second hit of Shulk's jab and hold down the button, he almost immediately starts his jab 1 again instead of going to jab 3 from tapping it. It'd be super nice if it worked on hit but it doesn't so yeah. At least you can witness Shulk walking across the stage by kicking.

 

[Rawbinator]

I was playing around with that too. Too bad it doesn't really do anything. Sometimes if you jab an airborne opponent and hold A, jab 2 misses causing jab 1 to come out which can hit again and kinda juggle but this will stop working quickly. It does look neat to walk across the stage with jab though

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Well I found something funny, but mostly useless about Shulk's (and probably many others) jab. If you whiff the second hit of Shulk's jab and hold down the button, he almost immediately starts his jab 1 again instead of going to jab 3 from tapping it. It'd be super nice if it worked on hit but it doesn't so yeah. At least you can witness Shulk walking across the stage by kicking.

I believe what you're describing is known as combat walking. It's not very useful, but it's a neat trick. I'm pretty sure Ike can do it too, but don't quote me on that.

 

[Masonomace]

Combat walking when we (Shulk) are at low percents is great because Rage won't be affecting our Weighted Base Knockback aka Set Knockback. When just using it manually without hitting someone, it looks funny, but. . . when we have Monado Buster active and we connect a Jab in a way that interrupts the opponent while they're airborne, holding A after that becomes a sight to behold. Just to put this out there, if you're at one end of the stage and you're facing toward the stage, then that could potentially be a stage-wide Buster Combat Walk.

The last time I did a Buster Combat Walk, I remember dealing at least ~30% before reaching the very end of the stage and I was relatively near the ledge to bein with. Jab isnt that great on its own unless you Buster Combat Walk with it!

 

[Berserker.]

I remember doing buster combat walking too at some point. Felt really gooood to just feel like Fox (not exactly but you know what I mean) for once, but I don't use it a lot since I'd go more for jab 1 -> tilt or dash grab. Still, buster combat walking is pretty cool stuff

Also, hai guys

 

[gridatttack]

I have to ask you something guys.

I wonder how useful will be MALLC in a future. Right now, I mostly have been using it as a way to steal the win KO, as most opponents doesn't know Shulk can do this, However, I wonder how to use MALLC when the opponent knows you can do it/knows the Shulk matchup, as you are probably not going to get a KO move after MALLC.

Or perhaps im missing something more about MALLC. Based on what i said earlier, I see myself only using MALLC defensively to dodge or shield if the user well knows I can cancel the landing lag.

Anyone knows other options to punish the foe after a MALLC?

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

The main purpose of MALLC for me is to throw out a safe back air or a good combo starting fair. I kind of forgot you can land surprising KOs via MALLC aerial into FSmash and such. The way I usually KO is from a Jump fast fall fair edgeguard, Jump fair->fair, a stray bair, or a Smash down/back throw. I really don't use smashes that much, especially in Smash mode.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I have to ask you something guys.

I wonder how useful will be MALLC in a future. Right now, I mostly have been using it as a way to steal the win KO, as most opponents doesn't know Shulk can do this, However, I wonder how to use MALLC when the opponent knows you can do it/knows the Shulk matchup, as you are probably not going to get a KO move after MALLC.

Or perhaps im missing something more about MALLC. Based on what i said earlier, I see myself only using MALLC defensively to dodge or shield if the user well knows I can cancel the landing lag.

Anyone knows other options to punish the foe after a MALLC?

I think the main problem with MALLC right now is that it is harder to use then it is to avoid, at some point it is probably going to be a huge AT. But right now it is pretty small.

 

[ZcK]

MALLC is useful for lots of stuff besides the surprise factor

- Some combos only work with it like up air> art cancel> up air (or down air if they are at low percentages) , it works without the MALLC though but barely

- Because Shulk decacceleriton is pitful, landing with him is hard however the usually shielding enemy waiting for you to fall and have you punished will find himself surprised when you attack or airdodge and land with no lag whatsoever, however it may not work at all times specially if they are grab happy and sometimes it is better to just try to drift away with speed or jump, sadly fast characters like fox still are troublesome but is an option nonetheless.

- Approaching with MALLC is fine so long spacing is good, for an instance fast falling aerials with it is safe so long you are not close to their grab range ( I posted this video before and sorry for doing it again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzKcyzOrYJ8, but it shows how to do a fast falling with an aerial with a short hop and how it may go unpunished)

-Also approaching without fast falling with an about to be activated buster art then f-air, landing and f-tilt is a nice shield pressure tool, but as usual optimal spacing is necessary . Also one previously mentioned with buster MALLC but instead of f- air use d-air and instead of f -tilt use f- smash, it breaks shields.

- Baiting airdodges with an actual attack instead of just a jump and cancelling it then attack them, droping the ledge inputting art doing stuff and landing is useful too, theres is a lot of stuff it can be done besides punishing lack of knowledge.



Also MALLC is not hard once you get the timing on your head for starters I would recomend short hopping>input art > aerial, dont fast fall though.

However the problem with MALLC is using it consistently through all the match, attacking naturally implies commitment and Monado lag makes this commitment punishable most of the time, with MALLC the problem is aliviated... for just one attack, sometimes this is not half bad since the effect of the arts are too nice for them to be ignored however for what it can be done with it at optimal levels combined with art debuffering, it is being underused at the moment.

 

[gridatttack]

MALLC is useful for lots of stuff besides the surprise factor

-Also approaching without fast falling with an about to be activated buster art then f-air, landing and f-tilt is a nice shield pressure tool, but as usual optimal spacing is necessary . Also one previously mentioned with buster MALLC but instead of f- air use d-air and instead of f -tilt use f- smash, it breaks shields.

- Baiting airdodges with an actual attack instead of just a jump and cancelling it then attack them, droping the ledge inputting art doing stuff and landing is useful too, theres is a lot of stuff it can be done besides punishing lack of knowledge.

Yes, the thing is that we have now is the surprise factor. But once that is gone, I suppose MALLC might lose some usefulness is netting the KOs.

I been practicing now getting the timing and the height when you are getting back on stage after being in the air. I think this will great help, as I find it now relative easy to MALLC with smash art.

Also, thanks for that. Baiting airdodges near the ground with a MALLC attack sounds great. I will try to apply it, and if the opponent falls for it, im sure Fsmash will get the opponent when they are in the landing lag after the air dodge.

 

[Zatchiel]

I have to ask you something guys.

I wonder how useful will be MALLC in a future. Right now, I mostly have been using it as a way to steal the win KO, as most opponents doesn't know Shulk can do this, However, I wonder how to use MALLC when the opponent knows you can do it/knows the Shulk matchup, as you are probably not going to get a KO move after MALLC.

Or perhaps im missing something more about MALLC. Based on what i said earlier, I see myself only using MALLC defensively to dodge or shield if the user well knows I can cancel the landing lag.

Anyone knows other options to punish the foe after a MALLC?

Malllc will become one of Shulk's more usual combo-starters. I'm not sure where it stands right now. Everyone seems to use it differently.

Defensive mallc is a bit meh. Especially if you're trying to do it to avoid landing traps. I'd consider it more of a last resort for that purpose, but in general, Shulk is too slow for defensive mallc to reliably do its job.

You have quite a few options depending on what aerial option you used with mallc. True combos, chases, or parries are the most common I can think of.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So apparently shieldstun was increased in this patch. Some quick solo testing shows that Buster Smashes still aren't safe on shield, but I'm sure Shulk might have a move or two that just gained some bonus utility with some more testing, especially in buster.

 

[FOcast]

Defensive mallc is a bit meh. Especially if you're trying to do it to avoid landing traps. I'd consider it more of a last resort for that purpose, but in general, Shulk is too slow for defensive mallc to reliably do its job.

Could you expand on this? Defensive MALLC feels really good to me. While it's true that it would be much stronger if Shulk had any moves with quick startup or persistent hitboxes, landing with MALLC Bair feels really safe, and MALLC airdodge seems very theoretically strong (though I haven't implemented it much).

 

[Rawbinator]

Apparently increased shield stun in this patch? Sounds good for our boy especially in Buster

edit: beat to the punch

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Y'know I wonder what this means for MALLC. Like, say, could we MALLC Bair into Buster into FSmash as a block string before? Would that break a shield if it worked? Hmmm...

 

[FOcast]

Y'know I wonder what this means for MALLC. Like, say, could we MALLC Bair into Buster into FSmash as a block string before? Would that break a shield if it worked? Hmmm...

I tested this for shield breaking before the patch, and it wouldn't quite break a 100% full Captain Falcon Shield, but very close. If they held the button down just a little too long, or if the shield were at all damaged, it would pop. It'll be interesting to explore blockstring options given how safe we can be on shield with Buster.

 

[Masonomace]

Useless but ultimately it's sad news to me. Most Floor attacks' shield damage was nerfed, which means Buster Shulk's Floor attack doesn't break a full bubble shield if both hits connect. Not even HBuster Floor attack breaks a full shield unless they keep holding shield after both hits connect, which is the sad news to me.

In other news, Buster & Shield art got indirectly buffed this patch :D.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Hey guys, did buster DSmash always have enough shield stun to force an opponent to block a second hit? If not then it now has a spacing that allows for an instant shield break mostly uncharged (as uncharged as I can get testing stuff alone). If the opponent is directly behind Shulk their bubble shield (size-dependent probably: I was using Mario) will reach far enough to be hit by the first front AND first back hit of DSmash, and with even minimal charge the first back hit now (again, not sure if it did before) keeps the opponent in shield stun long enough to force them to take the second back hit, completing the shield break. And of course if you've charged moderately you don't even need a third hit to break the shield. If this wasn't already a thing Shulk's ledge pressure just got a bit scarier with proper spacing. On the other hand if they don't shield when they get up you'll whiff the first hit which will probably just give them time to jab you, but hey that's why they call them mix ups.

 

[Berserker.]

Can anyone check on the safety of speed, shield and smash art attacks?

 

[Zatchiel]

Could you expand on this? Defensive MALLC feels really good to me. While it's true that it would be much stronger if Shulk had any moves with quick startup or persistent hitboxes, landing with MALLC Bair feels really safe, and MALLC airdodge seems very theoretically strong (though I haven't implemented it much).

Safe against shield, I agree. But if all we had to worry about was shield, mallc would abate the risk more, rather than making things riskier.

When you go for mallc, you have to deal with the timing of two things: time required for art selection, and time required for your aerial of choice to come out. With b-air for example, that's art selection time + 18 frames. With the will to challenge, most characters can easily interrupt you with time like that.

Airdodge mallc is a strong option, but I wouldn't look to rely on it.

 

[Jinban]

people should start grinding shield break combos or reliable shield breaks. I saw a few on shulkified twitter, it's got gifs and such, but the few i remember him showcasing are
Nair > Buster MALLC > BS (only if shield slightly damaged)
Nair > Buster MALLC > Dtilit > Ftilit (shield breaks if all hits connect)
Bair > Fsmash (only if shield is slightly damaged already)
another old one is Dair > Buster MALLC > Fsmash which should be a little easier to pull off now, but still just as impractical

Anyway i should also bring up the perfect MALLC i brought up a few posts ago where you can select an art > SH > perfect MALLC when not on hit, since there is minimal self shieldstun( when you get stunned for hitting a hitbox, particularly easy to view when hitting buster BS on a back, same thing except for shields) you will perfect MALLC everytime as long as the button presses are fast enough. I found it easier on the 3ds but it is still useful on other controllers depending on control scheme. The point of this is to ensure that the shield pressure is true, such as Bairing and then getting a perfect MALLC will greatly increase chances of getting that shield break leading to a potential stock or maybe some free damage from the buster FSmash, maybe even Dsmash if we're near the ledge.

PS I think maybe this stuff could be added to the combo thread as shield pressure options and possible shield break combos? Also an update to the buster guide appears to be in order

tl;dr grind shield break combos, especially with buster. Seems like it might greatly benefit Shulk as a character.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Shulk got a good buff this patch, how safe are his aerials on shield now? are they still super easy to punish or are they relatively safe?

 

[gridatttack]

Hmmm, good point. I suppose I should practice shield breaking MALLC. Or better yet, MALLC with Buster art. I think im close to netting it with a full hop.

Also, how those shield breaking combos fare when the opponent has higher damage? IIRC, you get more shield damage the more percent you have.

Though, after the shield is broken, what then? The only thing I can think of is switching to smash art, and push the opponent close to the edges, and then an angled up Fsmash.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Considering how early that can kill, that's a perfectly fine option. If they aren't high enough, a full charged buster smash hits like Ganondorf on Super Mushrooms.

 

[Jinban]

if you're feeling creative 2nd hit Uair > smash MALLC > Uair can kill (although i'm pretty sure fully charged Usmash is better anyway )

 

[TrueSapphire]

Normally, I'm not pessimistic like Shulk, but I'm...hesitant to ask this. Are you guys really sure this indirect Buster buff helps a lot, or has this been overhype without more experience?

Ever since I learned about the shield nerfs and seeing Shulkified's gifs, I was a bit ecstatic to train my Buster playstyle. But...

• I did an uncharged Buster F-smash...then got punished.
• I did a Buster N-air...then got punished.
• I did a Buster F-air...then got punished.
• I did a Buster B-air...and it either helped me or not. I think this is the only aerial that's maybe safe.
• I played offensively (focusing on movement) against a defensive player...then got punished. Smash 4 still feels like a defensive game, I think.

While those Buster gifs are there, I would like to see Buster highlights in actual matches to see if they're reliable or not. It could work with Decisive and Hyper Buster, but I want to know the potential of the standard Buster. Maybe this is too early to jump to conclusions in this different path. My opinion might change soon. I just need more experience, I guess.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Buster FSmash was the first thing I tested when I heard about the shield changes. It's still unsafe on shield except MAYbe the very tip of it.

Not sure what to say about the rest without more context. Who were you fighting? What sort of spacing? Advancing/neutral/retreating aerial? Did you fastfall after the hit? Shulk's cooldowns/landing lag are still kinda rough but if I recall some of that stuff was safe before the patch with proper spacing.

I also don't actually expect the change to turn Shulk's whole world around. Just help him in those edge cases where he was almost safe and make his already safe stuff even better.

 

[Berserker.]

From my short 3 hours, I'd say that throwing out aerials in buster art is safe. The spacing and precision for safety is much easier than before but going ham (aka: rushing down) with the aerials is still a no-no except maybe with n-air. Don't land up close against the opponent after using the aerial on shield. Make sure that there's some distance or you'll feel Shulk's ****ty CQC options

Basically what I'm saying is, the difference in safety is noticeable. Like, it's substantial to Shulk but regardless, you still need to space correctly but the spacing for the aerials is a lot more lenient

Someone should really find the numbers for our safety on shield with our aerials in buster art

 

[Masonomace]

B-Reversed retreating aerials with Jump Speed or especially Buster are objectively safe.

Okay maybe they're not absolutely safe, but damn B-Reversing for me is slowly becoming my norm & I enjoy it to the max. It feels great doing an empty short hop towards someone shielding & then B-Reversing away with either using Nair or Bair. At that point, the Blade sweetspot of Buster Bair is the true gift of the Bionis.

Sheesh, even Shield Nair or Bair can be safe with a retreating B-Reverse because an airborne B-Reverse travels the same distance through the air no matter what art you activate. It's when you input an aerial like Nair or Bair as soon as the B-Reverse happens that would make Art B-Reversing Monado Shield or Monado Smash super unsafe because inputting anything immediately after the B-Reverse applies the art's mobility (In that case, Monado Jump & Monado Speed benefit from it whereas Monado Shield wouldn't). My remedy to that would be either jumping higher, fall faster, or delay the aerial until you're literally about to land on the ground. Although, it's not easy to delay the move that late when it comes to Frame 13 Nair from behind & Frame 20-ish Bair from behind.

Hey guys, did buster DSmash always have enough shield stun to force an opponent to block a second hit? If not then it now has a spacing that allows for an instant shield break mostly uncharged (as uncharged as I can get testing stuff alone). If the opponent is directly behind Shulk their bubble shield (size-dependent probably: I was using Mario) will reach far enough to be hit by the first front AND first back hit of DSmash, and with even minimal charge the first back hit now (again, not sure if it did before) keeps the opponent in shield stun long enough to force them to take the second back hit, completing the shield break. And of course if you've charged moderately you don't even need a third hit to break the shield. If this wasn't already a thing Shulk's ledge pressure just got a bit scarier with proper spacing. On the other hand if they don't shield when they get up you'll whiff the first hit which will probably just give them time to jab you, but hey that's why they call them mix ups.

No it didn't. That's something new that came with the 1.1.1 patch much like Lucario's Aura Sphere Charge & Yoshi's Down Air now preventing the opponent from dropping their shield in mid-attack.

What this means for Shulk now is how much more destructive our Buster Dsmash read option is for when the opponent ledge-climbs onto the stage & holds shield. Before they could drop shield & take the two last hits if they got scared of the strong first front hit of Dsmash. . . .but now they can't drop shield & now they're forced to take the Blade first hit & the second Blade or Beam hit on shield. Just semi-charging Buster Dsmash or charging anymore than that becomes a seriously strong option capable of breaking their shield, or at least shield poking to chip in some good damage. Here's a post talking about some changes.

Normally, I'm not pessimistic like Shulk, but I'm...hesitant to ask this. Are you guys really sure this indirect Buster buff helps a lot, or has this been overhype without more experience?

Ever since I learned about the shield nerfs and seeing Shulkified's gifs, I was a bit ecstatic to train my Buster playstyle. But...

• I did an uncharged Buster F-smash...then got punished.
• I did a Buster N-air...then got punished.
• I did a Buster F-air...then got punished.
• I did a Buster B-air...and it either helped me or not. I think this is the only aerial that's maybe safe.
• I played offensively (focusing on movement) against a defensive player...then got punished. Smash 4 still feels like a defensive game, I think.

While those Buster gifs are there, I would like to see Buster highlights in actual matches to see if they're reliable or not. It could work with Decisive and Hyper Buster, but I want to know the potential of the standard Buster. Maybe this is too early to jump to conclusions in this different path. My opinion might change soon. I just need more experience, I guess.

I feel where you're coming from. Decisive Buster & Hyper Buster were already good before 1.1.1, but I can assure that they feel even better. . . To be honest, the only solid fact I know & have experienced is Buster Dsmash as Plain Yogurt mentioned about earlier. The strong Blade first hit from the front is so strong on block that the opponent can't shield drop after the hit connects which is definitely something. Honestly we should be considering every character's oos options & their frame data much more because of the way shields got changed this patch. Standing grab & to an extent Dash grab became worse from this result so now it's more vital to be Air Slashing out of shield now whenever we can, & also take note of the characters traction / friction & the amount of shield DI they use against us. All of this comes down to whether that retreating Buster Nair was safe, or whether that pivoted Buster Fsmash pushed them far enough to get a breather.

Shulk has terrible friction for example, so expect to lose to Shulk dittos when it comes to fighting against a spaced Buster art augmented move like Blade Ftilt on block. Jump, Shield, Buster, & Smash won't save you, but Speed art does naturally increase traction / friction, so Speed art has also become more important to us this patch as well.

 

[Berserker.]

Masonomace

Merged your posts btw. Nothing wrong with the double post though since the activity of this thread can go on and off from time to time

 

[Masonomace]

Thanks Berserker.

Got something new that you guys may have noticed before, or maybe not. Anyway, I wanna talk about something that happened to me a little while ago in regards to ledge invincibility. We all know that grabbing the ledge once grants invincibility & then regrabbing the ledge the second time & onward grant no invincibility, but there's a way for Shulk to do it.

See video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvRTXYAuRCM

Spoiler: embedded video

What I gather from this: Shulk's feet touching the floor right near the ledge counts as Shulk technically making contact. Therefore, when I drifted towards the stage upon my rising Air Slash & using the second hit, I drift back to the ledge & got invincibility once again. What do you guys think about this?

 

[gridatttack]

Interesting, but I cant think of what to use it on.
Perhaps if we recover the lowest possible while doing that trick might be useful, but if the opponent shields air slash while you are above the edge, you can get punished.

But of course, having the invincibility frame again will provide protection if one thinks you don't have it.

 

[Masonomace]

I figured it wouldn't be safe on block unless maybe Buster art augments both hits of Air Slash & given the character doesn't have great shield reaction in case they need to do so in order to avoid their character's bad traction giving us a breather.

Also this works with Advancing Air Slash too, but good ****ing luck with that.

 

[kenniky]

https://twitter.com/Shulkified/status/649606192646516736

https://twitter.com/Shulkified/status/649608338351738881

Unsure if posted before, but yo

 

[Duke27]

^
Those shield breaks are amazing. I'll definitely try some of those on opponents who hold shield for too long.

Question- Which attack is your favorite one to hit dazed enemies with? F-Smash should do the job, but IMO Backlash is the way to go.

 

[Masonomace]

Question- Which attack is your favorite one to hit dazed enemies with? F-Smash should do the job, but IMO Backlash is the way to go.

Depends on your forte imo. Favorite move doesn't have to mean strongest move, but if did, then I'd go with the strongest BKB / KBG moves. Air Slash second hit has 170 KBG which gives it a HUGE honorable mention despite that it doesn't deal the most damage. I feel that Shulk's strongest moves on their own are:

• Forward smash angled up = 18.5% in Training Mode, 30 BKB & 125 KBG from the second hit
• Up smash = 18.0% in Training Mode, 45 BKB & 98 KBG from the second hit
• Back Slash back sweetspot = 16% in Training Mode, 30 BKB & 100 KBG
• Down smash first hit sweetspot = 14% in Training Mode, 50 KBG & 90 KBG
• Air Slash both hits = 11.5% in Training Mode, 35 BKB & 170 KBG from the second hit

My favorite move to pull off on a dazed opponent would be a full charged Up smash including the grounded knockup effect from the first hit launching them into the second hit piercing them to the heavens.

 

[kenniky]

Depends on their percent too, it they're too low should probably go for full charge Buster fsmash/dsmash (if more than one hit connects)

Or fake them out into shielding near the ledge after they recover and punish with Buster dsmash for another shield break :^)

 

[Duke27]

Or fake them out into shielding near the ledge after they recover and punish with Buster dsmash for another shield break :^)

:O That's evil. That's like...Metal Face territory right there. If they're too close to the ledge don't they go into a dazed fall?

 

[kenniky]

:O That's evil. That's like...Metal Face territory right there. If they're too close to the ledge don't they go into a dazed fall?

Yes they do. Potential easy way to get an early kill: switch to Speed and walk them to the edge, switch to Buster, wait for them to recover from dazing and put up their shield then break it

Of course, this is completely dependent on whether or not their instincts are to shield. Could work once, but probably not again.