Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Berserker.]

Yeah, but it's practically useless.

Definitely not arguing otherwise. I have some interesting ideas though with the moves though but I'll test that when I actually get to

 

[Scieric]

Like maybe UAir MALLC UAir or something? We've already established DAir MALLC FSmash is a good shield pressure combo. So I'm interested in hearing the other possible applications for the MALLCs we thought useless.

 

[ZcK]

Well actually 2nd hit of UAir> Jump art cancel> to UAir true combos pretty well and kills pretty early too, most characters die from it at 60 or more and somehow even if the first hit of the second UAir does not hit the 2nd hit is a combo too and even then if they get to far away from the beam you can follow up with Air Slash (this one quite of starts working at like 80) , which is a combo too, of course in a real match reading DI is of uttermost importance to make it work.

Also Smash is not as bad as I thought if done well at the ledge, if you get hit by a NAir the follow ups are pretty decent, for an instance:

- Nair> Smash art cancel> F-smash starts killing pretty early at like 40 at the least and mid 60 or something at the most (I m not too pricky with percentages sorry), Though when they are higher than 50 the first hit of F-smash does not hit and therefore stops being a true combo.

- Then if that fails Nair> Smash art cancel> Air Slash combos too and kills at the late 60 and quite of stops working at late 70 sometimes even early 80.

-Which by then Nair> Smash art cancel> F-air can kill if sweetspotted and when at latter porcentages the beam will end up killing anyway, though before reaching 100 of course because it stops working by then.

Then by this percentages it may be wiser to use Buster and if landing something that can combo (holy N-air for example) cancel it and follow with F smash or Air Slash.

I have make up myself the idea of thinking of buster as smash so I stop it right there and press B only once more when jumping so it cancels, it makes it I think.

Other neat stuff:

BAir> Speed art cancel> Bair works at mid percentages (40-50) and at early percentages it can be used as a safer alternative for the proposed fair or nair speed art cancel to U-Smash at lower percentages.

BAir > whatever art cancel> F-tilt at lower percentages looks quite safe.

Also replace Smash combos with Speed at higher percentages and works the same.

I have tried many more but most of them consist of Nair to something, but well having that many options to kill at that many percentages is nice.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm beginning to prefer n-air over b-air for ledge trapping for most purposes sans killing. Although b-air's range covers a lot of ledge options, n-air comes out faster and lingers longer plus it doesn't have that much landing lag (plus it also does a good job in covering ledge hops and even ledge drops > aerials compared to b-air tbh). That, and you can get more follow ups from n-air. I'd probably go for n-air ledge trapping if I were trying to rack up damage (in buster art or any art, but Smash art). If I were going for the kill, I'd definitely go for b-air for obvious reasons (with smash art notably). OH, and by using n-air for ledge trapping, you can confirm into an f-smash depending on the percentage of your opponent. Although I kind of mentioned this already, with all the discussion about n-air > art cancel smash art > f-smash, it made me realize, "Wait a minute. So, if I put them in a situation where they're grabbing the ledge, they're basically like... near off-stage... so that means that I can n-air > smash art f-smash and easily take their stock if I manage to intercept them with n-air for as long as I time my smash art activation right... HMMMM..."

Just spitballing though so idk

 

[gridatttack]

So I played today against a really annoying, defensive palutena.

I had a hard time, as I couldn't think what to do against a defensive character (which I haven't met one before)

Any tips when dealing with defensive players?

In the end, MALLC saved my day. I got my first 2 MALLC KO's in that match, and won.

 

[Berserker.]

This might be more appropriate for the video thread but I'll only transfer the post if you're fine with it BUT if you want help with dealing with defensive players, then.....

Well, the best way to deal with defensive players is to understand their patterns/tactics and play carefully. It's not a good idea to ever approach defensive players especially since Shulk's frame data sucks. To deal with defensive players, I think it's fine to play at mid-range against them. Just play the neutral at mid-range. If you're really eager to approach, then abuse speed art dash to shield grab or RAR b-air or n-air at the right time but like I said (a lot of times already in several instances), playing defensively and carefully will always be the superior option even if the opponent is defensive. OH, when I meant "approach", I meant just wait and punish.

My bad if this sounded a bit vague but I can give a clearer answer if you specify which character you're referring to (since you said defensive players). If it's Palutena then idk, I don't play the match-up that much and I'm hesitant to theorycraft about it even if I co-main the character

 

[gridatttack]

Thanks for the help. I was going to upload the video, but its duarition is 3:55 and max to upload is 3 mins...so yeah.

Speaking of which, I suppose that was my problem. I approached without first analyzing what was going on. I lost the first match, but I won the second one with MALLC.

I ended up trying to abuse B-air, but it didn't worked that well, not to mention palutena had auto reticle...
I suppose I need to learn how to play defensively.

Speaking of improving, I wonder, how do you guys do when you want to MALLC with another art other than jump?
I can't seem to grasp on how to move when cycling through arts, as I seem to accidentally do a special attack. I only managed to barely time with speed, but I have no idea how to keep moving when trying to cycle to shield through smash art.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Have any of you had issues with Air Slash getting stuck underneath Dreamland? It happened to me multiple times yesterday and it was just ughhhh. If you line up Air Slash even slightly wrong while recovering from below the ledge, you get stuck under the stage. I'm starting to think Dreamland might be bad for Shulk because of that. What do you guys think?

 

[Berserker.]

Have any of you had issues with Air Slash getting stuck underneath Dreamland? It happened to me multiple times yesterday and it was just ughhhh. If you line up Air Slash even slightly wrong while recovering from below the ledge, you get stuck under the stage. I'm starting to think Dreamland might be bad for Shulk because of that. What do you guys think?

This happened to me once, but **** Dreamland. I always strike that stage when I can

 

[gridatttack]

It happened me once too, but I haven't gotten any issue o it. I fail more on the Brawl Mario circuit Omega stage.

Anyway, I think I been getting MALLC on. I will go with full hop and SH ones. I was having trouble landing on other arts other than jump and speed. To get Shield, Buster or Smash, I make sure I land on the previous art before I jump. I still need to practice this, especially on Smash art.

I also managed to get the SH one perfectly. I had trouble before due to my control scheme. I always jump with y, and its the farthest from b. I figured that I never use the X button, so I set the special attack to that button, and its been working like a charm.

Also, I think I got how to MALLC on battle field/dreamland/miiverse platforms. You do a full hop and then immediately press the special button, kinda like the SH one, except its a full hop.

I still don't see how to SHFF MALLC though. Seems pretty complicated.

Also, how good is ASOOS? (Air Slash Out Of Shield)

 

[Berserker.]

Also, how good is ASOOS? (Air Slash Out Of Shield)

It's good. Risky, but good. It's one of Shulk's better killing options especially in Smash art

 

[Jinban]

Saw that jab 1 > AS was a true combo according to the combo thread. Can this be used as some kind of safe kill-confirm?

 

[erico9001]

Saw that jab 1 > AS was a true combo according to the combo thread. Can this be used as some kind of safe kill-confirm?

yes, but it does not work truly against many characters.

 

[Berserker.]

Jab > U-tilt is also seems to be fairly reliable for sealing stocks if you aren't anywhere near the horizontal blast zones (then again, air slash has ridiculous KBG so)

 

[Berserker.]

So dash attack sucks. Yeah. Cool stuff, BUT buster and smash dash attack are pretty good-ish. Smash dash attack kills at surprisingly early percentages so using it for land punishment isn't really a bad idea at all to be honest. If anything, I'd suggest that you'd use this more to punish landings. Actually, it's kill power is really good, I'd even say that it's good enough for it to make smash art dash attack a "3/5" or a "3.5/5" if anything. Buster art dash attack is kinda worthless at earlier percentages since it's really unsafe on hit. Once you reach mid-percentages up, buster dash attack sets up really well into other attacks despite its end lag

So whoo. Some appreciation for dash attack. Still sucks tho outside those 2 arts and maybe shield art. This is fit for the moveset thread but I felt like posting it here since anything good about dash attack is worth posting here tbh. Don't kill me for being slightly positive about dash attack plz. I just wanna find some decent or good uses from this ****ty move. Lol

But let's all remember that frame 15 is frame 15 so yeah BUFF PLZ SAKUWHY

 

[Sonicninja115]

So dash attack sucks. Yeah. Cool stuff, BUT buster and smash dash attack are pretty good-ish. Smash dash attack kills at surprisingly early percentages so using it for land punishment isn't really a bad idea at all to be honest. If anything, I'd suggest that you'd use this more to punish landings. Actually, it's kill power is really good, I'd even say that it's good enough for it to make smash art dash attack a "3/5" or a "3.5/5" if anything. Buster art dash attack is kinda worthless at earlier percentages since it's really unsafe on hit. Once you reach mid-percentages up, buster dash attack sets up really well into other attacks despite its end lag

So whoo. Some appreciation for dash attack. Still sucks tho outside those 2 arts and maybe shield art. This is fit for the moveset thread but I felt like posting it here since anything good about dash attack is worth posting here tbh. Don't kill me for being slightly positive about dash attack plz. I just wanna find some decent or good uses from this ****ty move. Lol

But let's all remember that frame 15 is frame 15 so yeah BUFF PLZ SAKUWHY

The only time I really use DA is in shield art, as the animation doesn't slow down, so you dash forward at normal speed. Often times my opponent is caught completely off-guard off-guard on account of the sudden increase in speed.

 

[erico9001]

I'm updating this now that we have more data such as all dodges and Shulk's jump squat. Also, updating it for Back Slash's buff.

Standing/walking options
1 - Shield
1 - Back Slash Charge (Super Armor)
3 - Spot dodge
4 - Roll
5 - Jab
5 - Jump
6 - Vision
7 - Grab
8 - Jump + Air dodge
10 - D-tilt
10 - Air Slash (all custom variants)
11 - U-tilt (in front, before beam comes out)
12 - F-tilt
13 - U-tilt (when the beam comes out)
14 - F-Smash (first hit)
18 - D-Smash (front)
18 - Up Smash (1st hit)
18 - Jump + Nair (hitbox starts behind Shulk)
19 - Jump + Fair (hitbox starts above Shulk)
19 - Jump + Uair (1st hit)
19 - Jump + Dair (1st hit)
22 - Back Slash (hitbox starts is shortly above Shulk)
23 - F-smash (second hit)
23 - D-Smash (back)
23 - Jump + Bair (Monado's beam not extended, close range)
26 - Jump + Bair (Monado's beam extended)
28 - Back Slash Leap
28 - Jump + Dair (second hit)
29 - Jump + Uair (second hit)
30 - Up Smash (2nd hit)
31 - Back Slash Charge (hitbox)

Running options
1 - Shield
1 - Back Slash Charge (Super Armor)
3 - Spot Dodge
4 - Roll
5 - Jump
6 - Vision
8 - Jump + Air dodge
9 - Dash Grab
10 - Air Slash (all custom variants)
10 - Pivot Grab
>12 - Pivoted F-tilt
>14 - Pivoted F-Smash
15 - Dash attack
18 - Up Smash (1st hit)
18 - Jump + Nair
19 - Jump + Fair
19 - Jump + Uair (1st hit)
19 - Jump + Dair (1st hit)
22 - Back Slash
23 - Jump + Bair (Monado's beam not extended, close range)
26 - Jump + Bair (Monado's beam extended out behind)
28 - Back Slash Leap
28 - Jump + Dair (second hit)
29 - Jump + Uair (second hit)
30 - Up Smash (2nd hit)
31 - Back Slash Charge (hitbox)
*Running animation can be cancelled instantly by a Monado Art, allowing for any of the standing/walking options

Aerial options
1 - Double Jump
1 - Back Slash Charge (Super Armor)
3 - Air Dodge
6 - Vision
10 - Air Slash (all customs variants)
13 - Nair
14 - Fair
14 - Uair (1st hit)
14 - Dair (1st hit)
18 - Bair (Monado's beam not extended, close range)
21 - Bair (Monado's beam extended out behind)
22 - Back Slash
23 - Dair (2nd hit)
24 - Uair (2nd hit)
28 - Back Slash Leap
31 - Back Slash Charge (hitbox)

From here, the next step is to take select moves in-game and actually try them on characters and record, as the frame the hitbox comes out and the frame that hitbox will actually collide with opponents could be different. I see this as a possibility for F-tilt, Dash Attack, D-smash, D-tilt, and grounded Air Slash. I'm also curious about how fast an opponent's hitbox must come out in order for it to cancel our grab. Will a frame 8 hitbox beat a frame 7 grab?

 

[kenniky]

Will a frame 8 hitbox beat a frame 7 grab?

No

 

[Jinban]

yes, but it does not work truly against many characters.

oh well, that's a shame. I don't know exactly how rage works but does it affect the jabs aswell?

-

Anyway do people know how easy it is to MALLC SH U-airs? It's almost automatic for getting that strong hit, as long as you input SH > special > U-air as quick as you can, you'll MALLC it almost perfectly. Another great thing is that it's much easier to land it on grounded opponents than when coming from higher up, and the time it takes (at least for me) to get from pressing the b button to pressing up and a usually means that strong hit is as close to the ground as possible to get those shorter oppenents. Like in training mode I was able to land it on someone like fox 98% of the time, where I'd usually have a much harder time getting him when I was coming from higher up or when not MALLCing. Even short characters like jigglypuff and metaknight were relatively easy to get, with the exception of kirby. The weak hit also isn't big deal since it's usually to high up to hit a grounded opponent unless you're directly on them, as in literally, the character models have to look like they're part of the same thing for the weak hit to register.

Back to the point, U-air > Jump MALLC > U-air is a very easy true combo to land once you get that strong hit U-air, and it starts killing at about 50% for the lightest characters and at about 75% for the heaviest characters and there's about a 20-30% window depending on the character (although there might be blind spots in percentage as the later percentages use the sourspot of U-air to kill). Seeing as U-air > U-air is a true combo for jump even without MALLC (19 frames of landing lag from memory), you have quite a large window to get that second U-air with jump MALLC. So I was wondering how safe this option is, obviously if you don't hit anything you'll suffer a little bit of endlag but that would hopefully be because of a spotdodge or roll which should mean that you're safe, although there are still plenty of other options which they could use. I'd imagine it would be safe on shield so you might even be able to grab them if you hit it, (or possible shield break with f-smash if it's shrunk a bit). Has anybody tested this or got anyway of testing safety? I mean it's a pretty high reward and if the risk isn't too high it could be a decent optiont to use to snag an early stock. And it's not like you're locked into doing an U-air, if you see them jumping towards you, a F-air could shut them down and if they somehow airdodge just U-tilt, just things like that.

Last thing to note, smash art MALLC can kill a little bit earlier if you're keen for the kill, and since I doubt you'd be using smash art at percents that low, you can just wtich out and try MALLC with you're actual desired art. I've heard D-air > buster MALLC > F-smash can break 100% shields, so could a similar thing be done with U-air except for slightly diminished shields if we're not immediately looking for the kill, like if our other arts are on cooldown for example?

tl;dr: SH jump MALLC U-airs might be viable for an early kill using U-air > Jump MALLC > U-air if someone could test out how safe it is.

 

[erico9001]

oh well, that's a shame. I don't know exactly how rage works but does it affect the jabs aswell?

-

Anyway do people know how easy it is to MALLC SH U-airs? It's almost automatic for getting that strong hit, as long as you input SH > special > U-air as quick as you can, you'll MALLC it almost perfectly. Another great thing is that it's much easier to land it on grounded opponents than when coming from higher up, and the time it takes (at least for me) to get from pressing the b button to pressing up and a usually means that strong hit is as close to the ground as possible to get those shorter oppenents. Like in training mode I was able to land it on someone like fox 98% of the time, where I'd usually have a much harder time getting him when I was coming from higher up or when not MALLCing. Even short characters like jigglypuff and metaknight were relatively easy to get, with the exception of kirby. The weak hit also isn't big deal since it's usually to high up to hit a grounded opponent unless you're directly on them, as in literally, the character models have to look like they're part of the same thing for the weak hit to register.

Back to the point, U-air > Jump MALLC > U-air is a very easy true combo to land once you get that strong hit U-air, and it starts killing at about 50% for the lightest characters and at about 75% for the heaviest characters and there's about a 20-30% window depending on the character (although there might be blind spots in percentage as the later percentages use the sourspot of U-air to kill). Seeing as U-air > U-air is a true combo for jump even without MALLC (19 frames of landing lag from memory), you have quite a large window to get that second U-air with jump MALLC. So I was wondering how safe this option is, obviously if you don't hit anything you'll suffer a little bit of endlag but that would hopefully be because of a spotdodge or roll which should mean that you're safe, although there are still plenty of other options which they could use. I'd imagine it would be safe on shield so you might even be able to grab them if you hit it, (or possible shield break with f-smash if it's shrunk a bit). Has anybody tested this or got anyway of testing safety? I mean it's a pretty high reward and if the risk isn't too high it could be a decent optiont to use to snag an early stock. And it's not like you're locked into doing an U-air, if you see them jumping towards you, a F-air could shut them down and if they somehow airdodge just U-tilt, just things like that.

Last thing to note, smash art MALLC can kill a little bit earlier if you're keen for the kill, and since I doubt you'd be using smash art at percents that low, you can just wtich out and try MALLC with you're actual desired art. I've heard D-air > buster MALLC > F-smash can break 100% shields, so could a similar thing be done with U-air except for slightly diminished shields if we're not immediately looking for the kill, like if our other arts are on cooldown for example?

tl;dr: SH jump MALLC U-airs might be viable for an early kill using U-air > Jump MALLC > U-air if someone could test out how safe it is.

I haven't tried it out in games yet, but this is a good reminder to me to try and pull it out in friendlies. Same with the Buster Dair -> F-Smash.

Something in my mind lately has been the thought of purposefully air dodging into the ground near an opponent, but with a MALLC. The opponent goes for the punish seeing the air dodge near the ground, but MALLC makes it so you can shield or spot dodge. Then, the opponent actually finds himself punished!

 

[Zatchiel]

Something about the difference in hitlag between Smash, Buster, and the other arts (plus vanilla) really intrigues me. I'll look more into it.

The opponent goes for the punish seeing the air dodge near the ground, but MALLC makes it so you can shield or spot dodge. Then, the opponent actually finds himself punished!

Definitely, this works wonders if the opponent is expecting a mallc aerial attack. If you think you'll have time before their punish option, you can even have Vision up.

I've killed people at well below 70% numerous times with mallc into Smash art followed by Vision. Seems to happen more often if I'm landing on a platform and the opponent tries to hit me with an aerial.

 

[Jinban]

I haven't tried it out in games yet, but this is a good reminder to me to try and pull it out in friendlies. Same with the Buster Dair -> F-Smash.

Something in my mind lately has been the thought of purposefully air dodging into the ground near an opponent, but with a MALLC. The opponent goes for the punish seeing the air dodge near the ground, but MALLC makes it so you can shield or spot dodge. Then, the opponent actually finds himself punished!

Are you talking about as some kind of approach option or actually landing if you've been sent from upstage? Actually I was just toying around in training mode, and if you change to an art and immediately SH, then as long you don't hit anything with an aerial, landing lag is pretty much negated completely. This was probably already known, but it feels pertinent to this airdodge approach thing. Maybe you could do something cool with it like airdodge > MALLC intangibility frames > spotdodge so that an opponent pretty much has only the one frame before the spotdodge to punish, or do what Zatchiel said and vision. Also the other thing I was thinking was to bait it with a whiffed Fair then when they try to punish throw out a tilt of smash. Or you could do something like try to space it, so if you hit them or their shield then even though MALLC won't work you should hopefully be safe against most of the cast, or if they spotdodge or roll then MALLC will completely negate landing lag and you can chase them with whatever, especially if the MALLC is to speed. Obviously it won't always work, but maybe this could be used with succesive MALLC to throw out some baits before you finally land on your desired art? Only problem I see with this is powershielding, but even then you can mix it up by FFing to hopefully get some MALLC.

 

[Zatchiel]

Actually I was just toying around in training mode, and if you change to an art and immediately SH, then as long you don't hit anything with an aerial, landing lag is pretty much negated completely.

You can hit with the aerial in that circumstance, the only thing is it's necessary to fast fall in order to get mallc.

When short hopping, if you pick an art before takeoff, you have to fast fall.

If you pick an art after short hop takeoff, fast falling just makes you endure more landing lag than necessary. So in that case, you shouldn't fast fall.

When it comes to shields, just be wary. You don't always have to land with mallc as planned. Tomahawking during a midair art switch is very viable when the opponent is expecting mallc. And with arts like Smash or Buster, you can land devastating grabs or even smash attack punishes out of tomahawk.

 

[erico9001]

MALLC'ing on shield, MALLC'ing on hit, and MALLC'ing without any hit are all different with timing. Actually, MALLC'ing on shield may have the same timing as MALLC'ing without any hit. Either that, or they are very similar. I can't tell.

You can actually do a frame perfect MALLC with an air dodge if you press B RIGHT before you short hop, without a fast fall. However, it's hard to do...

I think approaching with a MALLC'd air dodge would work best with a full hop or double jump method, without fast falling. This gives the opponent plenty of time to see and try to punish the air dodge.

 

[Sonicninja115]

MALLC'ing on shield, MALLC'ing on hit, and MALLC'ing without any hit are all different with timing. Actually, MALLC'ing on shield may have the same timing as MALLC'ing without any hit. Either that, or they are very similar. I can't tell.

You can actually do a frame perfect MALLC with an air dodge if you press B RIGHT before you short hop, without a fast fall. However, it's hard to do...

I think approaching with a MALLC'd air dodge would work best with a full hop or double jump method, without fast falling. This gives the opponent plenty of time to see and try to punish the air dodge.

would MALLC cancel the airdodge's ending lag?

 

[erico9001]

would MALLC cancel the airdodge's ending lag?

yep

 

[Sonicninja115]

so would it be worth it to tomahawk MALLC airdodge cancel and punish their options? or would it be better to just MALLC a Bair or Fair?

yep

 

[Jinban]

Yah, that's what I was saying before. I was doing Art > SH > MALLC without FFing pretty consistently using my 3ds (all I have) where i can just use my thumb for both inputs which is why i suggested it. The reason I also suggested F-air instead for the SH MALLC method was because it's normal option and pretty hard for the opponent to not see it, so it's more likely they'll take the bait, and since it's an almost frame perfect cancellation you can do whatever you want. I do agree about the FH or DJ and airdodge MALLC bit though, it wouldn't be as effective with a SH.

Also if you what @ erico9001 says about the timing for MALLC being the same whether you whiff or hit shield, then it would make this Art change > SH > MALLC thing all that more powerful as I doubt they'll be able to counter it at all, since you frame perfect MALLC if you miss or hit their shield, or you hit them and they can't exactly do much about it. That could possibly mean a safe approach option for Shulk as you wouldn't even need to fully space it (maybe).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Isn't MALLC bair only punishable by fast chars?

 

[erico9001]

so would it be worth it to tomahawk MALLC airdodge cancel and punish their options? or would it be better to just MALLC a Bair or Fair?

Hmm, well that depends. With an aerial, the opponent is pretty likely to shield grab, or use some other fast OOS option. With an air dodge, the opponent is likely to use a less safe attack, as air dodge into ground is always free punish. Considering Shulk still has bad frame data, if you see that they are going to just shield your MALLC'd aerial, you may want to go for the air dodge instead. Or, you may want to tomahawk without an air dodge or aerial.

Hmm, what's better though? A MALLC'd aerial -> Dash grab or just no attack -> dash grab? The MALLC'd aerial covers their option of charging an attack on you, but would probably make them react quicker, no?

More hmm. I wonder if we crouch after doing a MALLC with an aerial, if that would make it look like we're suffering landing lag.

 

[Jinban]

Isn't MALLC bair only punishable by fast chars?

Only if MALLC hasn't cancelled enough frames of endlag / the B-air hasn't been spaced properly.

 

[Berserker.]

Isn't MALLC bair only punishable by fast chars?

I think only Falcon's dash grab can punish MALLC b-air on shield

 

[Zatchiel]

Hmm, what's better though? A MALLC'd aerial -> Dash grab or just no attack -> dash grab? The MALLC'd aerial covers their option of charging an attack on you, but would probably make them react quicker, no?

I for one wouldn't be able to choose. They both have their shining moments, frequently so if you like to use mallc a lot.

If your opponent is keen to your mallc attempts, you'll probably get more grabs out of tomahawk than mallc aerials. Shulk's frame poorness makes it really easy to combat mallc (in neutral) with a simple shield.

 

[Berserker.]

I'd only use MALLC air dodge to escape from juggling situations but it's a lot simpler to just switch to jump or even shield when that happens. Also, I can (double or triple) confirm that shield art really screws over Zamus' advantage so if you get grabbed, get shield art ready (Or even Smash art... actually but you take more hitsun so no lol). If you want to execute the speed -> buster/neutral -> advantage transitioning strategy, the best way to perform to this is to get a speed art grab then MABD into f-air then switch into buster (basically, speed d-throw > MABD f-air -> Ready buster). OR, you can do it during some portions of speed art (after landing n-air or f-air or whatever). It works well and it's an easy and simply way on how to get used to MABD

This is probably one of the few times where I managed to actually apply MABD in some matches because I usually forget to try it out. I don't think I've ever mentioned this so yeah

 

[Jinban]

Just a quick update on this SH perfect MALLC thing, it does still work even if you hit normal shield with F-air or Nair. The other aerials are going to be way too hard for me to test so any help with testing that would be appreciated.

 

[Berserker.]

Don't know if it's just me but I'm beginning to prefer buster for dealing against campers for whatever reason. Anyone feeling the same way? I feel like I'm doing something really wrong with speed art if this is how things are going for me (maybe I'm not dash to shielding enough or something). I also use jump art for dealing with projectiles but I use buster more often and just power shield my way through. Idk. Just curious but how do you guys go about projectiles? I know that this question was asked many times but things evolve over time so.... yeah

 

[ZcK]

Not a bad idea considering they will try to compensate for the damage and propably start commiting, though speed
still gives you more stage control I think, buster though makes everything safe so if they are grab happy it screws them over, may not be a great idea if they are near the ledge maybe.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Don't know if it's just me but I'm beginning to prefer buster for dealing against campers for whatever reason. Anyone feeling the same way? I feel like I'm doing something really wrong with speed art if this is how things are going for me (maybe I'm not dash to shielding enough or something). I also use jump art for dealing with projectiles but I use buster more often and just power shield my way through. Idk. Just curious but how do you guys go about projectiles? I know that this question was asked many times but things evolve over time so.... yeah

I think buster just makes me have to be more calculating. as I know that any stray move can be punished harder then usual, only 11% more, but still. It also makes me go slower, and tack on percentage with safer moves. I sometimes use it and sometimes use speed, it is just preference and the char i am fighting.

 

[WindHero]

What I find with Speed is that I tend to fall into repetition too much: If I wanna grab, I keep trying instead of changing tactics after a whiff. Stage control is great, but not when we're idiots about it, like I am. I find that speed is nice in certain matchups, but the reduced damage output makes it feel like a wash. For that 30% I packed on in speed, I could have just gone Vanilla or Buster and did the same in half the time. So, I feel it takes a lot of know-how to use speed right. I'm still working on it... I know Speed is good, but I personally suck at using it.

For some reason, I don't find Meta Knight too terrifying to fight as Shulk. Especially when I use Jump to edgeguard. (Heck, Jump is good for edgeguarding any way you slice it.) I've really gotten back into the swing of using Jump, but I noticed a terrible trend in myself: In any given battle, there's usually one or two arts I completely neglect to use, even when they're good in the situation.

What are your opinions on using Buster against bruisers? It seems to put Shulk on an even footing, damage-wise, but it also makes their hits all the more devastating... Roy in particular seems to just kill Shulk (and 75% of the cast) at stupid early percents. Jump does wonders when edgeguarding him, but it also is crazy risky with Shulk's weight-reduction.

 

[erico9001]

Don't know if it's just me but I'm beginning to prefer buster for dealing against campers for whatever reason. Anyone feeling the same way? I feel like I'm doing something really wrong with speed art if this is how things are going for me (maybe I'm not dash to shielding enough or something). I also use jump art for dealing with projectiles but I use buster more often and just power shield my way through. Idk. Just curious but how do you guys go about projectiles? I know that this question was asked many times but things evolve over time so.... yeah

Shulk's Discord has a pretty good Mega Man named Kam, and against him I love to use Monado Speed RAR Nairs. It really does wonders!

As for Link, I focus on Monado Jump, but go into Buster when up close. Maybe some speed, but the lowered jump height can hurt.

I also secondary Link, and when I face Shulks, I know that I really need to utilize my long distance grab. I just spam projectiles, shield when they get near, and shield grab if they hit, or shield grab in advance if I see a tomahawk coming. It's easy and very hard to get around...

Anyways, as a Shulk, I like to bring projectile users to Smashville. It's a small stage, and the platform moving above can create opportunities to get in on the opponent. Another possibility is Lylat Cruise.