Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Locke 06]

Locke with his random Shulk thoughts...

If you are using the art activation to land, Shulk has the unique mixup of a b-reverse airdodge. With max airspeed, your opponent will have to guess whether you are going to b-reverse or not. And even then, you can b-reverse airdodge or not airdodge. Can help you out of getting juggled when you are out of your 2nd jump. (Or you can just go speed/jump and drift to the ledge) whiffed aerial = punish? Iunno...

That's my favorite use for b-reverse. Run off turnaround-bAir sounds cute too, instead of run off fAir... although maybe not as practical, but that's another thing unique to Shulk. Maybe ledge trump>turnaround-smash fAir? Iono. Just spitballing. If Mega could run off turnaround-bAir to cover low recoveries I'd be so happy.

 

[Berserker.]

Trying to get the timing of b-reverse or wavebounce b-air off-stage. I feel like it could be practical since it's a good idea to mix it up with run-off f-air. You can mix it up between those 2 such that if they try to anticipate that you're going to use f-air, they'll air dodge quickly only to eat a b-air instead which comes out later (frame 18 at the front hitbox, frame 20-22 from the back iirc). Then again, it's simpler to just wait for them to grab the ledge and retaliating to any ledge option with b-air or anything really but, b-reversing or wavebouncing with b-air is a good mix-up option. Y'know, to keep things less predictable

As for ledge trumping, I think air slash will be my go-to option if ever the opportunity arises since it kills really early off-stage (especially with Smash art)

 

[erico9001]

^Watch if you don't want to die to some glitch!

 

[Ultinarok]

Real talk, back slash is f****** boss now. This buff is incredible. It went from being a hit or miss back throw follow up and occasional edge guard tool/satisfaction/disrespect KO to being one of my primary finishers. You can actually reliably back slash follow up out of back throw almost every time, and snipe aerial opponents near you or recovering high very easily with it now. 9 fewer frames is a huge difference.

I remember when Back Slash was more of a joke move, a noob-friendly self-destruct tool, and a super punishable, high-risk medium reward move. It was one of Shulk's objectively worst moves, no matter how satisfying it was to connect. Now its actually good. So good. Back throw is now by far my favorite throw just because it leads to low percentage BS every time, especially in Speed.

I love how Monado Boy, like the FE cast, just keeps getting better while his worst match-ups get worse (Sheik, Sonic, Diddy and the loss of Fox's jab lock).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Real talk, back slash is f****** boss now. This buff is incredible. It went from being a hit or miss back throw follow up and occasional edge guard tool/satisfaction/disrespect KO to being one of my primary finishers. You can actually reliably back slash follow up out of back throw almost every time, and snipe aerial opponents near you or recovering high very easily with it now. 9 fewer frames is a huge difference.

I remember when Back Slash was more of a joke move, a noob-friendly self-destruct tool, and a super punishable, high-risk medium reward move. It was one of Shulk's objectively worst moves, no matter how satisfying it was to connect. Now its actually good. So good. Back throw is now by far my favorite throw just because it leads to low percentage BS every time, especially in Speed.

I love how Monado Boy, like the FE cast, just keeps getting better while his worst match-ups get worse (Sheik, Sonic, Diddy and the loss of Fox's jab lock).

Are those situations just reads or does Bthrow into Backslash actually work/true now?

 

[Ultinarok]

Are those situations just reads or does Bthrow into Backslash actually work/true now?

I haven't tested for sure but it works WAY more often than before and I even pull it off pretty consistently running all the way across the stage. The main issue is few people tech back throw in time so they suffer impact lag when hitting the ground and get struck. Even if you whiff it, its way less punishable in nearly every situation, simply because the opponent has to respect it when recovering, rolling, everything.

 

[notyourparadigm]

Are those situations just reads or does Bthrow into Backslash actually work/true now?

It's most viable in Buster (and low percents for the other arts, but Buster gives that big damage we all want anyways at low percents). Usually one of the following things happens (in order of most frequent that I've observed since the 1.10 patch)

1. The opponent doesn't realize how little knockback Buster has (especially at low percent) and either stands idle thinking they are still in hitstun, or tries to tech the throw while not in a tumble animation, thus air dodging and eating the backslash as they land. Also applies to the case where your opponent just airdodges after the throw expecting an aerial follow up.
2. The opponent tries to jump away, which can mean the backslash missing depending on which direction they jump and their character. Backslash still connects surprisingly often though, especially if they jump towards you (i.e. over you) rather than away.
3. The opponent stays in shield, and Buster eats their bubble and pushes them halfway across the stage. Fast characters will probably still punish you.
4. The opponent perfect shields. Aww shucks. You're gonna get punished.
5. The opponent rolls/runs out of range. Aww shucks. You're gonna get punished.
6. The opponent attempts to counter attack. Results will vary.

So yeah, it's still not guaranteed. Just surprisingly effective on opponents that don't expect it, and much closer to being guaranteed because of the improved startup. I think a lot of folks have discounted it as a viable move up until this point, thus why it hits so often.

EDIT: Typos

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Yeah hitting the vertical Back Slash hitbox during aerial scuffles is way easier now. Not a bad move at all anymore.

I was so bummed today. My mind randomly remembered that the D-pad could be set to specials and I thought it could make it way faster to dial up Monado Arts for short hop MALLCs and the like as if winding a clock and then I realized that specials don't come out if you're still even slightly pressing a direction, so you'd have to lightly swivel it on it's axis in the middle of a tense battle to get it to work. Which is fricking impossible. So now I'm just sitting here marveling at how Shulk Time was actually almost literally a gameplay feature for us.

 

[erico9001]

Yeah hitting the vertical Back Slash hitbox during aerial scuffles is way easier now. Not a bad move at all anymore.

I was so bummed today. My mind randomly remembered that the D-pad could be set to specials and I thought it could make it way faster to dial up Monado Arts for short hop MALLCs and the like as if winding a clock and then I realized that specials don't come out if you're still even slightly pressing a direction, so you'd have to lightly swivel it on it's axis in the middle of a tense battle to get it to work. Which is fricking impossible. So now I'm just sitting here marveling at how Shulk Time was actually almost literally a gameplay feature for us.

That was disappointing for me too. I was looking into that a couple pages back. However, not completely disappointing.

Q: Multiple buttons using Special Move = super fast monado art changing?
A: Sort of but not really. The disappointing thing about this is in order to use the same input on another button, you must have your finger off of the other button for at least 1 frame. If you input a special with a button while already inputting the special with another button, it will not repeat the action. Additionally, if you go immediately from one input to another, it does not happen. There must be a 1 frame gap between the pressing of the buttons. This prevents things like setting the d-pad to specials and spinning your thumb around it. However, you CAN get pretty fast inputs if you use two fingers, and make sure to take each finger off of the button ASAP. Since you are using two fingers, you don't necessarily need to go very fast with each finger.

Q: So what about the B-stick - setting the right control stick to specials?
A: Well sort of interesting results here. I don't think it is worth sacrificing your smash attack or tilts stick for, but here it is. First, for changing arts with the B-stick, you must press B once before you start using the stick. The B-stick has no way to input a neutral special, so you must do that yourself. Now that you have it pressed, you can change arts by pressing any of the directions. Here are the results from each direction:
---Pressing up: You change arts. If in your shield, you get a tiny, short tilt upwards, which gives insight into how the programmers designed the b-stick in this game.
---Pressing left or right: This further demonstrates how the programmers designed the B-stick. You do a dash for a very short time, while changing your monado art. You can fox trot with this dash, which will change 1 monado art each time you do a dash. You can also use this little dash to do very easy perfect pivots, but your monado arts will unfortunately NOT change while doing so.
--------Left/Right continued: If you go left and right pretty quickly on the right control stick, your dashes cancel out and you just stay in place changing monado arts. You can actually change Monado Arts REALLY fast by doing so.
---Pressing down: If on land, I believe you crouch, which prevents monado arts from changing.
---If in air: When in the air, any of the directions work. Spinning the control stick unfortunately does not work. The fastest way to change arts with the stick is still to go left and right repeatedly.

 

[kenniky]

If you're using a classic controller, why not set L and ZL/R and ZR to specials? You can quickly tap your finger for desired effect.

I would do this but I shield with R and grab with ZL from 3DS habits so uhh

Works on Gamepad too. Not on GCC because only three shoulder buttons, and pro controllers have wonky z buttons

 

[Berserker.]

Some random use for u-air with MALLC or any aerial against air borne opponents

Bait the air dodge with any aerial while preparing an art, fast fall and cancel the landing lag then punish the air dodge immediately

Been doing this for a while now when I'm juggling with Shulk. My B if anyone suggested this already

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Random thought that probably isn't feasible but it might be worth trying:

Buster is active. You jab 1 someone without continuing to jab 2 and 3. If you've ever done this to someone before (I do a lot for jab > grab,) you might notice that right after they fall out of jab 1 they shield. So, could it be possible to do jab 1 > opponent shields > Buster dsmash for a shield stab/break setup?

 

[Berserker.]

Random thought that probably isn't feasible but it might be worth trying:

Buster is active. You jab 1 someone without continuing to jab 2 and 3. If you've ever done this to someone before (I do a lot for jab > grab,) you might notice that right after they fall out of jab 1 they shield. So, could it be possible to do jab 1 > opponent shields > Buster dsmash for a shield stab/break setup?

It would be reliable against a cornered opponent that's shield happy, for sure. If they aren't shield happy though, it's best not to attempt it because d-smash is really slow and easy to react to

 

[ZcK]

Some random thought I had in the shower, a buffered deactivation out from speed to buster followed directly by down smash which I assume with the correct timing will have the sliding effect of speed is useful or even possible? . Walking and doing the down smash usually slides you quite far and considering how much the first hit of D-smash pushes the opponent when shielding then can the second hit connect and possibly break their shields maybe? Sorry if it was mentioned earlier.

Also maybe this belongs to another part but when trying to edgeguard Fox specially his side-b the pathetic damage output it has can be beaten with a buster D-tilt, or at least it has worked when I tried it. Again sorry if this was mentioned previously on the match up thread or elsewhere.

 

[Masonomace]

Random thought that probably isn't feasible but it might be worth trying:

Buster is active. You jab 1 someone without continuing to jab 2 and 3. If you've ever done this to someone before (I do a lot for jab > grab,) you might notice that right after they fall out of jab 1 they shield. So, could it be possible to do jab 1 > opponent shields > Buster dsmash for a shield stab/break setup?

I'd do this if I wasn't doing so many Jab1 > dash grabs. When thinking about conditioning an opponent, I'd totally give this a try, but I'll have to refrain from using so many dash grabs after Jab1 so that they first can be conditioned to shield for the opportunity to D-smash. I won't think about this too much vs characters who are either heavy or fall fast like Bowser / Dedede / Ganon or Fox / Greninja / Sheik 'cus D-smash uncharged at the earliest is Frame 18 & any later would be for when they keep holding shield. I could see this likely working on Lucario because his traction value is so high that he'd be shield-stabbed or maybe even break his shield.

 

[Berserker.]

I finished with the "ledge trapping with Shulk" part in my OP


I didn't put d-smash there because honestly, it's kinda unreliable especially if the first hit whiffs

 

[ZcK]

Usually an art-cancelled aerial still suffer a bit of landing lag at the beggining until the art activates taking out the safeness that the aerial would otherwise provide in theory when on the face of the opponent, but now if the art activated the very moment Shulk touches the ground, would it be safe?

I know short-hopped fast falling Art cancelling is hard and I have trouble doing it when hitting someone but when Im not going to hit anything it works perfectly. When I do it I usually wait just a tiny bit before fast falling so that the aerial will art-cancel the very moment I touch the ground giving me not more than 2 frames if any of landing lag. I think it has something to do with the hitlag, even if tiny, I cannot cancel any aerial with this method no matter what when I hit someone.

Funny part is that if I hit them when shielding I will Art-cancel the aerial and probably be at frame advantage. It takes like 7 frames for someone to drop a shield ( Im doing my math based on the perfect parry tech of the weeks videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET1PZwOJ6mU) and then grabbing takes them at the very least another 5 frames. Given Shulk 5 frame jab and 7 frame grab, this can mean he can act before the opponent does anything. In theory probably since I m not sure until which frame the opponent can dodge or jump out of shield or at which point of any attack they can input the shield drop.

I assume the point in discussing MAALLC safety has been brought before but giving the right circumstances where even the non-existant hitlag of shulk F-air decides wheter the aerial art-cancels or not, is telling me that the aerial is cancelling just in time with no lag at all.

Giving that this somehow ends up being safe then the close quarters game of shulk could see an improvement.

 

[kenniky]

Usually an art-cancelled aerial still suffer a bit of landing lag at the beggining until the art activates taking out the safeness that the aerial would otherwise provide in theory when on the face of the opponent, but now if the art activated the very moment Shulk touches the ground, would it be safe?

I know short-hopped fast falling Art cancelling is hard and I have trouble doing it when hitting someone but when Im not going to hit anything it works perfectly. When I do it I usually wait just a tiny bit before fast falling so that the aerial will art-cancel the very moment I touch the ground giving me not more than 2 frames if any of landing lag. I think it has something to do with the hitlag, even if tiny, I cannot cancel any aerial with this method no matter what when I hit someone.

Funny part is that if I hit them when shielding I will Art-cancel the aerial and probably be at frame advantage. It takes like 7 frames for someone to drop a shield ( Im doing my math based on the perfect parry tech of the weeks videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET1PZwOJ6mU) and then grabbing takes them at the very least another 5 frames. Given Shulk 5 frame jab and 7 frame grab, this can mean he can act before the opponent does anything. In theory probably since I m not sure until which frame the opponent can dodge or jump out of shield or at which point of any attack they can input the shield drop.

I assume the point in discussing MAALLC safety has been brought before but giving the right circumstances where even the non-existant hitlag of shulk F-air decides wheter the aerial art-cancels or not, is telling me that the aerial is cancelling just in time with no lag at all.

Giving that this somehow ends up being safe then the close quarters game of shulk could see an improvement.

The thing is, you don't need to drop shield to grab or do OoS options, only if you need to do something like a jab/tilt/fsmash/dsmash. Shield can be directly acted out of with jump or grab without any additional frames.

I think for jump cancelled stuff there is 1 frame extra for jump initiation.

So, for example, take Sheik. Grab is frame 6, Nair OoS is frame 7 (4 frame jumpsquat + 3 frames startup), Bair OoS is frame 8 (4 frame jumpsquat + 4 frames startup). Even though jab beats most of these you have a 2 frame window to time to beat out a grab, and then they can just wait in shield because lol that endlag

 

[ZcK]

The thing is, you don't need to drop shield to grab or do OoS options, only if you need to do something like a jab/tilt/fsmash/dsmash. Shield can be directly acted out of with jump or grab without any additional frames.

I think for jump cancelled stuff there is 1 frame extra for jump initiation.

So, for example, take Sheik. Grab is frame 6, Nair OoS is frame 7 (4 frame jumpsquat + 3 frames startup), Bair OoS is frame 8 (4 frame jumpsquat + 4 frames startup). Even though jab beats most of these you have a 2 frame window to time to beat out a grab, and then they can just wait in shield because lol that endlag

Thanks for clarifying that.

From a bit of testing a pivot grab does the job though, it starts at frame 9 but it puts you far enough for they not to grab you and the pivot range is good. Also most of the gals that got a 6-7 grab also got no range on them so that helps I guess.

I ve been able to pull some of these along with the jab or grab situations but sometimes is a bit inconsistent.

 

[Zatchiel]

short-hopped fast falling Art cancelling

Don't do this. You suffer unnecessary landing lag, which really subtracts from mallc.

You should only ever have to fast fall if you're above full hop height, and not in the process of descending, by the time you highlight the art you want. (Hyper/default arts)

now if the art activated the very moment Shulk touches the ground, would it be safe?

It's safer, but unless the opposing character has really poor out of shield game, odds are you're still very vulnerable. Sometimes even if you space perfectly.

B-air mallc likely is the safest thing we have on block. And that's not saying much as I think it maintains frames of disadvantage. I could be wrong though. I hope I am.

 

[Scieric]

I was doing some testing with @ erico9001 earlier about which combos you can escape/death combos you can live by activating Monado Shield, Here's what we found.

You CAN escape/live the following:

Meta Knight's Dash Attack -> UpB combo will not kill you
ZSS's DThrow -> UAir -> UpB will be lived and maybe even escaped
Rosa's UAir juggles will not kill you and you will likely fall too low for Rosa to continue to hit you
Mario's DThrow-> UTilt -> UTilt -> UTilt -> you get it can be escaped as once Shield activates the UTilt will no longer do enough KB to you and you will fall to the ground and you may punish with a Jab, grab, or counter Mario's next UTilt. Don't rely on that last one though.

You CANNOT escape/live the following:

DK's Cargo FThrow -> UAir does not give you enough time to actually switch into Shield
Sonic's Spin Dash will not allow you to switch into Shield during it (as far as we can tell) and you cannot avoid the followups (once again, as far as we can tell)

Other Notes

You technically CAN escape Luigi's DThrow combos, but only until he must go for a second grab at which point you have already taken ~30% and the only punish you can get is a jab, worth 9% fresh. You're better off just avoiding the grab.
You can switch Arts while paralysed. This means that ZSS's kill confirms from DSmash/Paralyzer along with Pikachu's/Falcon's infinite combos with customs are completely nill against Shulk since he will just switch into Shield and not die.
In other words SHULK DESTROYS ZSS! NOTHING WORKS AGAINST HIM

 

[Plain Yogurt]

You can switch Arts while paralysed.

This is quite useful info. So while you're waiting to get grabbed you can just cycle normally?

Also what percents are we talking here? I imagine most of these can kill Shield Shulk eventually and at some percents even make it easier since less knockback + Shulk size = easier to combo. Are these like avoiding 0-deaths or what?

 

[Scieric]

This is quite useful info. So while you're waiting to get grabbed you can just cycle normally?

Also what percents are we talking here? I imagine most of these can kill Shield Shulk eventually and at some percents even make it easier since less knockback + Shulk size = easier to combo. Are these like avoiding 0-deaths or what?

Yes. You can cycle through your Arts while paralyzed as if you were just standing there.
The kill combos all have a possibility of you falling out if you switch early enough. I would suggest the moment there is any sort of initiation for the kill combos, you switch to Shield immediately. And don't switch to Shield if it's going to make a combo work on you. Also, a weird suggestion, maybe switch to Smash to disable the combos. Not against ZSS though. The UAir will likely kill you.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Nice, nice.

Also, not sure if we've established this before (knowing you guys and my current track record we most certainly have but whatevs I'm reminding you), but jump cancelled vision goes further than a default vision counter attack, even if you have no aerial momentum going. And since Jump gives us the most momentum, it becomes even better as our go-to anti-projectile art, as jumping into a projectile with vision active will shoot Shulk quite far. Of course, the opponent will not likely be in the time bubble thing that slows people so how useful this actually might be is uncertain. How long are we invincible after Vision activates again?

 

[Berserker.]

Oh. Should add that Sheik's f-air chains don't last that long against Sheild Shulk. Also, shield Shulk can escape Link's d-throw follow ups. It may be just me but you can't really jump out of Link's d-throw combos (I play with my bro a lot and I've noticed this) but I can counter out of 'em with shield art activated since I take less knockback from d-throw. Shulk can also escape Robin's d-throw follow ups with shield art

I think Ness' d-throw > f-air combos still work on Shield Shulk. Key word being think. Maybe I could have air dodged or air slashed or countered out of it but I recall trying to mash out of the combos by air dodging. I couldn't manage to escape Ness' throw combos. Would be cool though if someone tested this just to confirm my suspicions

 

[Scieric]

Oh. Should add that Sheik's f-air chains don't last that long against Sheild Shulk. Also, shield Shulk can escape Link's d-throw follow ups. It may be just me but you can't really jump out of Link's d-throw combos (I play with my bro a lot and I've noticed this) but I can counter out of 'em with shield art activated since I take less knockback from d-throw. Shulk can also escape Robin's d-throw follow ups with shield art

I think Ness' d-throw > f-air combos still work on Shield Shulk. Key word being think. Maybe I could have air dodged or air slashed or countered out of it but I recall trying to mash out of the combos by air dodging. I couldn't manage to escape Ness' throw combos. Would be cool though if someone tested this just to confirm my suspicions

Sheik's FAir strings? Maybe. I actually don't really know but if someone else (who is better at Sheik's FAir strings) could test that. You might be able to fall out.
Also, you seem to be a bit confused as to what I was talking about when you mentioned Link and Robin. You are talking about combos that don't work because you're already in Shield when those combos start. I'm talking about longer combos that stop working once you activate Shield during them. But yes, it can be helpful to already be in Shield against those characters. Same would go for DK as well.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Could you activate shield during one of Luigi's combo strings? I think it could help, on the other hand it might extend his combo length. Because he could FF into an utilt combo.

 

[Berserker.]

Sheik's FAir strings? Maybe. I actually don't really know but if someone else (who is better at Sheik's FAir strings) could test that. You might be able to fall out.
Also, you seem to be a bit confused as to what I was talking about when you mentioned Link and Robin. You are talking about combos that don't work because you're already in Shield when those combos start. I'm talking about longer combos that stop working once you activate Shield during them. But yes, it can be helpful to already be in Shield against those characters. Same would go for DK as well.

Ah. My bad on the latter

As for Sheik's f-air strings, it works. I've been using this trick for a while now and it makes the Sheik match-up much more bearable than usual (Still hard but anything that makes the match-up less of a pain is good in my book)

 

[Scieric]

Shaweetness. I'd probably bring out my Roy against better Sheiks though. And against charaters like DK, Bowser, Ganon, DDD, etc. Enough renovation in the Shulk meta and he might be able to beat everyone. EVERYONE I SAY! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Berserker.]

With that frame data, it's hard to say but then again, we'll never know. I guess. I have positive suspicions about Shield art's role in Shulk's meta along with buffered deactivation. Plus, if it ever crossed my mind to switch to another character against Sheik (this almost never happens btw), I'd probably attempt to go for Sheik dittos

 

[Scieric]

But then you have to have a better Sheik than the Sheik player. At that point, you should just main Sheik.

 

[Sonicninja115]

But then you have to have a better Sheik than the Sheik player. At that point, you should just main Sheik.

In a sense you should, however, it comes down to the fact that Shulk doesn't have a good MU against Shiek while Shiek has an even MU vs. Shiek.

In other words, if the Shulk/Shiek MU is +2 Shiek's favor, then I would have to be better then the Shiek player in order to beat a Shiek. so if I were better then the other player and had experience with shiek, then the MU would be even and it would be a battle of the players.

There is also the variable of how good the other Shiek is compared to your Shiek. If the other Shiek is better then your shiek it would mean that it is +1 in there favor probably. But if you are better then them in general, you have the possibility of evening out the MU.

Anyways, this is just my opinion. Take it as you want.

 

[Scieric]

Could you activate shield during one of Luigi's combo strings? I think it could help, on the other hand it might extend his combo length. Because he could FF into an utilt combo.

Please read over my Shield activation guide once more.

In a sense you should, however, it comes down to the fact that Shulk doesn't have a good MU against Shiek while Shiek has an even MU vs. Shiek.

In other words, if the Shulk/Shiek MU is +2 Shiek's favor, then I would have to be better then the Shiek player in order to beat a Shiek. so if I were better then the other player and had experience with shiek, then the MU would be even and it would be a battle of the players.

There is also the variable of how good the other Shiek is compared to your Shiek. If the other Shiek is better then your shiek it would mean that it is +1 in there favor probably. But if you are better then them in general, you have the possibility of evening out the MU.

Anyways, this is just my opinion. Take it as you want.

Uh... sure... I'll take it as I want. I have to be better than the #2 player in Ontario to even have a chance of bringing the matchup slightly closer to even. Does that sound nice? Or should I go a secondary?

 

[kenniky]

I mean there's also Lucario and Kirby to go to... lol

 

[Scieric]

Meh, I'd personally go Roy or Brawler. My 2 secondaries, and not nearly as bad against Sheik. I also have a friend at tourneys who mains Puff. Give me a brief fill-in on Puff, use my already adequate knowledge of the character, facepalm a few times after some really bad puns and I got dis.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Meh, I'd personally go Roy or Brawler. My 2 secondaries, and not nearly as bad against Sheik. I also have a friend at tourneys who mains Puff. Give me a brief fill-in on Puff, use my already adequate knowledge of the character, facepalm a few times after some really bad puns and I got dis.

Roy still has quite a bit of trouble against Sheik from my experience. He gets outcamped by needles pretty hard. He also has a tough time approaching a Sheik that is spacing fairs well.
Shulk can get around those durn needles better with Speed and Jump, but Roy has a more efficient punish game and better out of shield options in my opinion.

But really, who doesn't have trouble against Sheik? I mean, she IS kind of the best character in the game.

 

[Scieric]

Still have that untrained pocket Puff lol

 

[Berserker.]

Everyone has trouble against Sheik. Like, even Kirby and Lucario. Even if Lucario can rage come back against Sheik, his neutral is ass so regardless of what his rage and aura percentage is, Sheik will beat him because her neutral is the exact opposite of ass. Kirby loses hard because he gets camped. You really just need to f-air and needle Kirby out

Anyway, I'll try not to derail the thread anymore. Time to go back on topic

 

[ZcK]

A video of what i was talking about earlier http://youtu.be/SzKcyzOrYJ8
What made it safe probably was the invincibility frames which cant be relied onto but you can't see almost no lag on landing
I put out different examples and how on hit it does not cancel could have done a better one but time is lacking sorry
As usual being out of their grab ranges ,unless they have startup, is the best option but at least they cant buffer anything but jump oos stuff before shulk does anything
But hey not even sheik is safe that close

 

[Berserker.]

If you guys really want to utilize pivot f-tilt, use it when the opponent is above you. How close above you? If the opponent is really close to you from above, then yeah. Go for pivot f-tilt. U-tilt will be beaten to the punch if you use it from that distance. I went up against some Dr. Mario offline. Every time he was above me, I'd try going for the u-tilt but he was too close so his FF N-air managed to hit me first. Figured that it was more reliable and optimal to simply run back then pivot f-tilt