Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[WindHero]

Speaking of shields, reading the patch thread reveals that a few people say shield regen has been slowed.

This could be VERY good for Shulk.

Also, Dash Attack endlag decreased. Apparently, endlag wasn't included in previously posted data dump.
EDIT: didn't notice this was already posted in another thread here.

 

[erico9001]

So now that we have that faster back slash, what are its new uses?

Well, for one, there's Nair -> Back slash. It may come in handy at mid/high-percents upon landing an Nair. Works later with monado jump.

Another use is due to the more horizontal hitbox it has now (thanks to that new animation), it can be used against projectiles to both out-prioritize and possibly punish.

The speed of back slash is really nice. I believe we can actually use it to punish in instances where before would have used dash attack. The range of the move is a huge contributor to this as well, so make sure to space yourself.

Using Back Slash in the air will be better now, of course. Should be easier to mix people up with it, or respond to their Bairs with back slash.

Back Slash is usable for ledge trapping and catching rolls. Unlike before, it was waaay too slow for being usable for those situations

I like this.

 

[Linkmario00]

I had a silly idea. BS can actually be useful now with the buffed startup, but the endlag is still terribl. Could we bypass this by MALLC the landing on BS? Maybe it's a little crazy but if it works it can lead into a strong pressure game, like a MALLC BS on shield+ Buster Ftilt or Fsmash could break a Shield. It would really be amazing.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster dash attack seems like an actual option off from f-throw, b-throw or d-throw (all throws can set up into dash attack). Like, the issue with dash attack with buster art back then was that landing a hit with it gets you punished because of the end lag. Now that it's reduced (although we don't know by how much), maybe dash attack in buster art is possibly somewhat or even moderately safe on hit. Dash attacks low knockback in buster also sets up nicely into u-tilt or f-tilt or hell even f-smash

Another use is due to the more horizontal hitbox it has now (thanks to that new animation), it can be used against projectiles to both out-prioritize and possibly punish..

This is the next idea I was going to mention. Having a playing buddy who mostly uses Link, projectiles can get quite annoying to deal with. Back slash was too slow to use against campers tbh because well... FRAME 31. GREAT. Well, now it's frame 25. Back slash is much more reliable against projectile campers now.... maybe except Mega Man and Sheik (not that it's totally useless against them or anything, it's just that their projectile are insanely spammable when you compare them to the rest of the campers in the roster)

B-throw > Back slash should be a more reliable set-up now. Still not a true combo (didn't test it enough tbh) though so be careful

I had a silly idea. BS can actually be useful now with the buffed startup, but the endlag is still terribl. Could we bypass this by MALLC the landing on BS? Maybe it's a little crazy but if it works it can lead into a strong pressure game, like a MALLC BS on shield+ Buster Ftilt or Fsmash could break a Shield. It would really be amazing.

Input for Back Slash and Monado arts are overlapping (both require the B button) so this is impossible, unfortunately

 

[Linkmario00]

God damn you're right. It's a shame tough

 

[Masonomace]

As long as the MALLC is perfectly timed, you can mash the B button to input Air Slash Back Slash or Vision after you've landed with MALLC. The drawback obviously is when the MALLC isn't perfect you'll end up cycling arts upon landing, which is a shame.

EDIT: I misread what you guys mentioned. Sorry 'bout that.
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My thoughts on the Back Slash buff

• Slow running in place at the ledge, running off quickly, & inputting Back Slash back toward the stage has become much greater since we're essentially skipping the fall phase from doing this. So now, the move looks even faster coming to a land & this Landing hitbox phase actually has the strongest shield damage modifier (+10) whereas the Startup & Falling phases only have a (+7) shield modifier. This is practical for crossing up from behind someone holding shield or when they ledge-roll & hold shield.
• When we take shield knockback, we're still able to do that Back Slash where we gain no height & we're closer tot he ground right? If that hasn't been patched (which I can't see why or when it was considering Lucario as an Air Walk D-air out of shield where he ascends in the air during his D-air), we can use the frame buff advantage to make our Back Slash attack even faster at a more ground level.
• Back Slash is better for platform hunting since we can be grounded & input Back Slash to hit someone standing on a platform with a Buster or Smash art (or Speed art for pivoted reasons) to deal swell shield knockback + shield damage or strong knockback capable of KO'ing or setting up an edge-guard hunt. Unfortunately, BSL & BSC didn't get anything so now they're kinda irrelevant in comparison.

 

[Berserker.]

Found something nifty with deactivation buffering :D

Also, I'll just call MALLC "Art cancelling" from now on

F-air > Art cancel into speed art > Dash grab > D-throw + Buffered deactivation > Switch to jump > F-air > Art cancel into jump > Dash grab > U-throw > U-tilt > F-air > F-air > Air Slash

It's more of a string though but I think if you're fast enough with button pressing and art cancelling, it could be a true combo. Did this on Marth and it kills. You'll die too though because air slash off-stage :3c

You can also replace dash grab > u-throw > u-tilt with just > u-tilt but that'd require stricter spacing. It's also highly possible that you can actually buffer art deactivation in between your 2nd to your last f-air and air slash and possibly quickly switch into Smash art such that air slash is a sure kill. Only issue with this is that this will kill you since you're way too far off-stage. This kills across-the-stage btw. I think you can remove one f-air in the last hits to make it such that it won't kill you.

Why am I talking about MADTD/D-throw buffering? Because it's cool **** and it's basically an additional reason to start in speed art over buster art (been starting with buster a lot recently). It reinforces the idea of "speed at neutral, anything else at advantage or disadvantage"

And speaking of back slash, I managed to get aerial punishes with back slash. I like the new buff. I mean, frame data buffs would be better but hey, take what you can get, right?

 

[Berserker.]

Buster d-throw buffering is godlike for set ups

You can either get an air slash, f-air (excaliburguy said this already) or b-air. Now that I think about it, is it possible to do this?

Buster d-throw > buffered deactivation > prepare smash art > u-air (1st hit) > art cancel into smash art > u-smash

Requires serious B mashing. Note that kill set ups with buster d-throw work at mid-high/high percentages. So to make it easier, you could do this except maybe jump instead of smash except you do it at a much later percent because jump doesn't have as much KO power as Smash art.

Gonna try this out. Man, I love this character (and hate him for his **** frame data)

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Now that I think about it, is it possible to do this?

Buster d-throw > buffered deactivation > prepare smash art > u-air (1st hit) > art cancel into smash art > u-smash

Requires serious B mashing. Note that kill set ups with buster d-throw work at mid-high/high percentages. So to make it easier, you could do this except maybe jump instead of smash except you do it at a much later percent because jump doesn't have as much KO power as Smash art.

Gonna try this out. Man, I love this character (and hate him for his **** frame data)

Based on my results on 3DS, I'm afraid there's no way to perform that string you mentioned as a true combo. I might be able to get closer on Wii U, but... I don't know. I did some calculations, but the testing was very non-scientific, so take these results with a grain of salt. That fastest I was able to start the Monado Art cycle and select Smash (just select, not activate), was roughly .75 seconds. Then you have to wait for the 14 frames of startup on up air, which is about .23 seconds. Add in the time that it takes to run, and you might be looking at... eh, roughly 1.25 seconds of hitstun required from a Buster down throw. I'm not sure how much hitstun a Buster Down throw has, but I'm pretty sure it's not 1.25 seconds. Theoretically, if you could half the time you spend selecting Smash, you MIGHT be able to pull this off. I really have no idea. It seems like a lot of effort for a kill-setup.

You are right, though. Buffered Buster deactivation into Jump is legit at higher percents. I find that Buster MADTD is just as useful if not more useful than Speed MADTD. That Speed KO setup I showed is kind of unrealistic against a good player because DI. Speed MADTD is still good up to about 35ish% from my experience, however.

 

[Berserker.]

Based on my results on 3DS, I'm afraid there's no way to perform that string you mentioned as a true combo. I might be able to get closer on Wii U, but... I don't know. I did some calculations, but the testing was very non-scientific, so take these results with a grain of salt. That fastest I was able to start the Monado Art cycle and select Smash (just select, not activate), was roughly .75 seconds. Then you have to wait for the 14 frames of startup on up air, which is about .23 seconding. Add in the time that it takes to run, and you might be looking at... eh, roughly 1.25 seconds of hitstun required from a Buster down throw. I'm not sure how much hitstun a Buster Down throw has, but I'm pretty sure it's not 1.25 seconds. Theoretically, if you could half the time you spend selecting Smash, you MIGHT be able to pull this off. I really have no idea. It seems like a lot of effort for a kill-setup.

You are right, though. Buffered Buster deactivation into Jump is legit at higher percents. I find that Buster MADTD is just as useful if not more useful than Speed MADTD. That Speed KO setup I showed is kind of unrealistic against a good player because DI. Speed MADTD is still good up to about 35ish% from my experience, however.

I'm too slow for smash art :s

Yeah. It requires too much effort. I managed to check but it's good that you checked too so that it was double-de confirmed. At least Buster to jump is reliable enough (I can live with that) :D

Can't seem to do it that much for some reason :/

Meeh. Never mind. It's too hard to pull off even with jump ;;

Gonna fiddle around with possible footstool set ups. Maybe buster u-tilt will do? Idk. Time to hit the lab again

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Speaking of buffered deactivation, against people who you condition to airdodge, Buster uthrow > buffer deactivation (opponent airdodges while you do this) > usmash is a kill setup I've been working on lately. The timing is strict but it's soooo satisfying to pull off

 

[erico9001]

I'm experimenting around with MALLC using dair and uair.

Dair:
It's really hard to get a Dair MALLC with both hits using regular arts. The issue is regular arts have such a short activation period. Both hits of Dair creates such a large amount hitlag, and takes so much time that the art will likely activate before you reach the ground. It is technically possibly to do a MALLC with bot hits, but only with FH + double jump, and you must be at an exact position where you then press B and IMMEDIATELY afterwards use Dair.

However, you can MALLC with just the first hit or just the second hit.
Just the first hit: The easiest way to MALLC with Dair. Unfortunately, nothing true combos off of it. If you do it frame perfect, meaning earliest MALLC possible and using Dair at the latest time before hitting the ground, you can combo into a jab and probably a grab (combo counters don't seem to count grabs...), but that's it. They can shield before anything else. I think grab is the most useful here. Also, the opponent is sent towards whatever direction you hit them from, so a RAR beforehand makes the grab more guaranteed.

The second hit of Dair is weird to land in coordination with MALLC. Without platforms, the easiest metod is to utilize how the second hit of Dair has more horizontal range than the first hit. And that's hard. However, it is the best hitbox to use for comboing from MALLC at mid/high percents due to its low knockback angle. Dair (second hit) >> F-tilt works against rob from at least 20-70% (not finding exact percents). I only wish there was an easy way to do both hits of Dair...

Well, there is! Decisive arts . It's easy with these. Just Full hop, shortly afterwards press B and double jump, do not fast fall, and Dair when in range. Probably plenty of other methods. MALLC Dair (both hits) >> F-smash deals 46% damage with the MALLC being into Decisive Monado Buster. Training mode. Not bad.

The other way to MALLC with the second hit of Dair is to just do a normal MALLC, but while on a platform with an opponent below you, and having the second hit poke through the platform. The timing is the same as a Fair MALLC. You can either use the soft platforms you have around on various stages, or poking through the bottom of the stage as an edgeguard. Not too sure if there are many combos from it, but it at least adds safety to your attempt.

Uair:
Uair is nice if you can land it with a MALLC. Like Dair, it's extremely hard to land both hits with MALLC unless using decisive arts. A downside Uair has to Dair is it's incredibly hard to land on short opponents. However, against those it does land on, you have some pretty useful things.

Uair (first hit) >> U-smash - any percent, kill combo. Plenty of other options.
Uair (second hit) >(jump)> FH + DJ Uair, kill combo.

Also, if the opponent is on a platform above you,
Uair (first hit) >> U-tilt works at any percent if the opponent is not to light. This could kill if MALLC'ing into Smash. Air Slash doesn't work though due to the first hitbox's pulling effect.
If they happen to air dodge, you could possibly U-Smash them.

So that's that. Hope this helps.

 

[Berserker.]

Speaking of buffered deactivation, against people who you condition to airdodge, Buster uthrow > buffer deactivation (opponent airdodges while you do this) > usmash is a kill setup I've been working on lately. The timing is strict but it's soooo satisfying to pull off

I advocate this set-up. It's really good

Buster art u-tilt > buffered deactivation > footstool > d-air art cancel into whatever art (1st hit only) > do anything

 

[Berserker.]

Okay. Imo, b-air > f-air > n-air. Beginning to like f-air more simply because it can be safe if you time it right and space it right in buster. If you manage to make buster f-air safe, you'll appreciate it more

B-air ledge trapping is godlike as ****. It's a free damage racker and a free kill with smash art

MADTD stuff:

B-air >> art cancel into speed > d-tilt + buffered deactivation > f-air >> art cancel into jump > f-air

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

MADTD stuff:

B-air >> art cancel into speed > d-tilt + buffered deactivation > f-air >> art cancel into jump > f-air

Noice! Also, because we utilizing buffered deactivation with attacks other than down throw, the name MADTD doesn't really fit. Perhaps we should name it something more that makes more sense? Monado Art Buffered Deactivation or MABD seems like it would work, but I'm up for other ideas.

 

[Berserker.]

MABD = Monado art buffered deactivation
MALLC = Monado art landing lag canceled

Sounds fine. You can shorten both to simply buffered deactivation and art cancelling

 

[Zatchiel]

I need some things tested that I can't manage on my own.

Mid percent jab combo -> dash -> f-air in Speed (opponent does outward or diagonal DI on the jab)

Mid/high-mid percent jab combo -> full hop f-air in Jump (opponent does strictly upward or up and slightly diagonal DI on the jab)

80% sure the latter is a true combo. Not sure about the one in Speed.

To spark a more freeform discussion: How do you guys feel about our arts + grabs? In any art, I flat out love d-throw. Also starting to like f-throw in Speed to set up tech chases.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster f-throw is actually a viable set up into f-tilt or f-smash. U-throw is dependent on the opponent's reaction whether he jumps away, attacks out of hitsun or air dodges. If the latter 2 is done, it's a meaty free punish. With speed art, both f-throw and b-throw are great for tech chases. U-throw is great in speed too because you can either follow up into f-air, U-tilt or U-air. Kinda sounds like jump art U-throwing lol

 

[gridatttack]

So I've been practicing MALLC, and man, is it hard. I only can do the full hop and full double hop ones. For some reason, when I try the short hop fast fall, the art doesn't activate before I jump. I wonder if I'm doing it wrong.

BTW, is there more info on what Buffered deactivation is?
I see you talking about it but dunno what it is lol.
Perhaps I missed it on an earlier discussion :v

 

[Berserker.]

So I've been practicing MALLC, and man, is it hard. I only can do the full hop and full double hop ones. For some reason, when I try the short hop fast fall, the art doesn't activate before I jump. I wonder if I'm doing it wrong.

BTW, is there more info on what Buffered deactivation is?
I see you talking about it but dunno what it is lol.
Perhaps I missed it on an earlier discussion :v

I actually perform art cancelling with FH's and double jumps. Doing it from SHFF is really difficult, so you're probably doing it right

Buffered deactivation is basically deactivating your current monado art early by pressing the b button 3 times during any animation

 

[Nammy12]

Just wondering, does the backslash buff make buster bthrow to backslash any more useful?

 

[Berserker.]

Just wondering, does the backslash buff make buster bthrow to backslash any more useful?

Eh. Meh

Not really. Maybe a bit

 

[Zatchiel]

So I've been practicing MALLC, and man, is it hard. I only can do the full hop and full double hop ones. For some reason, when I try the short hop fast fall, the art doesn't activate before I jump. I wonder if I'm doing it wrong.

Once you get it down, it'll feel a lot easier. You won't go a game without it.

Jump and Speed are the most useful mallc and the easiest to perform out of a short hop. For Jump, just press neutral special as soon as you take off for a short hop and use an aerial. No fast fall.

Once you get the hang of that, short hop Speed mallc will come naturally.

SBTW, is there more info on what Buffered deactivation is?
I see you talking about it but dunno what it is lol.
Perhaps I missed it on an earlier discussion :v

Just a combination of two concepts: deactivation and buffering. Not trying to be sarcastic. I'm assuming you know what one is and not the other.

Buffering is inputting an attack/command before another finishes within a set window. When the former attack/command is finished, the one you inputted will begin on the earliest possible frame.

Combined with art deactivation, the art is cancelled frame perfectly, and you can either proceed in vanilla or pick another art as soon as possible.

Just wondering, does the backslash buff make buster bthrow to backslash any more useful?

I don't really think so.

 

[BlueCrush]

Forgive me if this was discussed already, but does MALLC B-Air to F-Tilt Pop Shields?

 

[Berserker.]

Forgive me if this was discussed already, but does MALLC B-Air to F-Tilt Pop Shields?

By pop, you mean break?

Depends on the shield health. On a shield with 100% health, probably not. Maybe it could with hyper buster but idk.

~~~

HUH. That's weird. Anyone having inconsistencies with buffering deactivation with u-throw?

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Oh, man... I got a to review and catch-up on this thread. It feels good to be back though.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

I got rekt by a Sheik on Anther's Ladder today. He was a better played than me, sure, and there was really not a whole lot I could do. Then I counter picked Castle Siege. His strategy of trying to camp me out with needles wasn't going to cut it on the second transformation. I was able to clutch it out after a very long battle of attrition. I lost the third game, but not as badly as before. So yeah, when playing against a Sheik, play a very careful game. My opponent didn't seem to like having to play six minute games, but really, what was I supposed to do? If you go in on Sheik you will get bodied. There are just no two ways about it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is b-reversing/wave bouncing shulks Monado art activation worth it? Is their any point to learning this skill or is it just a situational tech?

 

[notyourparadigm]

Is b-reversing/wave bouncing shulks Monado art activation worth it? Is their any point to learning this skill or is it just a situational tech?

Actually, to add to this question, how can you even wave bounce Monado art activation? B-reversing is fine, but I've always learned wave bouncing as inputing an aerial turnaround immediately followed by a b-reverse. Since the activation doesn't occur at the same time as the button input, how is it possible to pull off? I just wrote it off as impossible-- can someone confirm this, or explain how to do it / show a gif of what it looks like if it is actually possible?

 

[Zatchiel]

Is b-reversing/wave bouncing shulks Monado art activation worth it? Is their any point to learning this skill or is it just a situational tech?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: I think the best way to describe it is useful, just not outstandingly so. The quick reversal in momentum is nice, but for something so difficult to be consistent with it isn't really worth it.

It's counterproductive to recovering from offstage, gimmicky at best for approaching, and more dangerous than just doing mallc when you're trying to land.

Actually, to add to this question, how can you even wave bounce Monado art activation? B-reversing is fine, but I've always learned wave bouncing as inputing an aerial turnaround immediately followed by a b-reverse. Since the activation doesn't occur at the same time as the button input, how is it possible to pull off? I just wrote it off as impossible-- can someone confirm this, or explain how to do it / show a gif of what it looks like if it is actually possible?

It is possible. For the inputs I just do what I would for any other neutral b wavebounce/b-reversal, except I try to time those inputs to coincide with art activation. It's tricky, and I can't get it more than a couple times when practicing.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Thanks! the only use I could think of for b-reversing was to change shulk's direction to use a bair/fair and mix-up the opponent.

 

[erico9001]

Actually, to add to this question, how can you even wave bounce Monado art activation? B-reversing is fine, but I've always learned wave bouncing as inputing an aerial turnaround immediately followed by a b-reverse. Since the activation doesn't occur at the same time as the button input, how is it possible to pull off? I just wrote it off as impossible-- can someone confirm this, or explain how to do it / show a gif of what it looks like if it is actually possible?

You can wavebounce a monado art activation. The easiest way I found is to hold the opposite direction you're facing so that you do the turn around, and then move the controller the other way very quickly after.

For uses to b-reversing the monado arts, it's probably that NOBODY would be expecting it. You could use it to easy your recovery back to the ground. Though, once they see it once, it will be very easy to predict, unless you are also MALLC'ing. Another use could be spacing Bair. We're the only character with the option to suddenly turn velocity around and use an aerial. I suppose if you did it into a Buster move, you would have the safest version of that move ever, aside from MALLC's.

The thing with b-reversing is, unlike the MALLC techniques I engineered, I don't see a clear way to know when to do a b-reverse without timing it. This means that you would have to rely on internal timing. Though, you could probably eventually get muscle memory.

Anyways, I'm making a video to cover that glitch where you can't use your Up B. Hope it gets wide-spread before we have the next character balancing patch, so that it gets fixed. Going to finish video tomorrow.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Wait? Shulk can't use the Up B in certain situations? How? Is it a universal thing or is it Shulk exclusive?

 

[Berserker.]

Wait? Shulk can't use the Up B in certain situations? How? Is it a universal thing or is it Shulk exclusive?

Shulk exclusive

If you're in mid-air and you switch to an art that's on cooldown then you let it fade, you can't use air slash unless you perform an animation afterwards. It's cost me some tournament matches ;-;

 

[erico9001]

Wait? Shulk can't use the Up B in certain situations? How? Is it a universal thing or is it Shulk exclusive?

Shulk exclusive

If you're in mid-air and you switch to an art that's on cooldown then you let it fade, you can't use air slash unless you perform an animation afterwards. It's cost me some tournament matches ;-;

Killed me once at the last tourny I went to, during doubles. We still won though.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

That's nuts... No wonder it felt weird that I couldn't recover one time when I picked a cooldown art. That's very important to know.

 

[MarioFireRed]

Shulk exclusive

If you're in mid-air and you switch to an art that's on cooldown then you let it fade, you can't use air slash unless you perform an animation afterwards. It's cost me some tournament matches ;-;

That's...pretty bad actually. Never had it happen to me personally but I hope it gets fixed.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is there a technical reason that explains why it happens?

 

[Rawbinator]

I imagine it's similar to entering the Monado cycle (i.e. when all B inputs just go to the next Art even if you're inputting a direction). I can't test but do Back Slash and Vision come out once you've entered this state?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

There is one solid use for b-reversing activations. If your opponent recovers low and close to the stage you can prep an art, run off, b-reverse the activation, and fair them in the face instead of trying to aim the much slower bair. It works better as a surprise since prepping the art kind of tips it off, but it's not often characters need to recover that low in the first place so there'll be times it can work.