Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Nammy12]

New movement options for speed Shulk.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Ok guys, so Jump Art up throw->up air is legitness. It starts KOing Sheik at 70% off the top of FD. No matter where they DI, you can still follow them and clip them with the up air. Now if they air dodge the up air, don't worry about it. The next up throw you get, bait the airdodge, follow their DI, and charge an up smash for an easy KO.
If you read their airdodge after the up throw, they WILL die, provided that their percentage is high enough for the stage ceiling. If they start jumping after up throw, that's ok too. If you can predict which way they'll jump, fair them a few times. Or you can follow them with up tilts, as many characters' only reliable landing mixup, double jumping, is now gone. If you know that they're going to double jump and airdodge, the latter strategy will be more effective.
There some things I haven't tested with this strategy, such as when your opponent uses a quick nair and the exact percents when you should us the strategy. It was working on Sheik from 60-85ish%, though I can see it working for longer, especially on fast fallers. I knew that up throw up air was good in Jump mode, but the fact that you can destroy airdodges makes this a string worth looking into again.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey, would sliding pivots be able to be used with MALLC?

 

[FOcast]

Hey, would sliding pivots be able to be used with MALLC?

Pretty sure the answer here is no. No matter how tight your timing is, you'll still be entering landing lag after your aerial, which precludes retaining its momentum. Also, given how Monado Art Dash Cancelling works, I'd expect grounded art activation to mess with your grounded momentum in ways that prevent that.

 

[erico9001]

New movement options for speed Shulk.

This is legitimate. Does actually slide farther than just waling -> grab. Seems to be some sort of velocity slow down and then speed up when turning around on the ground. You must grab during those few moment of higher speed.

Hey, would sliding pivots be able to be used with MALLC?

Unfortunately no. If you MALLC into Monado Speed, you would not have be at the full air speed of Monado Speed.

Pretty sure the answer here is no. No matter how tight your timing is, you'll still be entering landing lag after your aerial, which precludes retaining its momentum. Also, given how Monado Art Dash Cancelling works, I'd expect grounded art activation to mess with your grounded momentum in ways that prevent that.

The video is wrong about one thing. You do get this effect slightly with our Nair. It's just not the full effect. It's also wrong in that Shulk does have an autocancel... the autocancel just sucks. Fair on FH.

 

[McDareth]

This is legitimate. Does actually slide farther than just waling -> grab. Seems to be some sort of velocity slow down and then speed up when turning around on the ground. You must grab during those few moment of higher speed.

Unfortunately no. If you MALLC into Monado Speed, you would not have be at the full air speed of Monado Speed.

The video is wrong about one thing. You do get this effect slightly with our Nair. It's just not the full effect. It's also wrong in that Shulk does have an autocancel... the autocancel just sucks. Fair on FH.

Yeah, I know Shulk can autocancel, it's just that the window is like frame 74 or something absurd. I also didn't want people still thinking that Shulk's Nair autocancels lol.

One thing I thought of after I had already made the video is doing a B-Reverse of Monado Art Activation (I apologize if there's an actual term for this that I don't know) and then holding the opposite way to do a Sliding Pivot.

 

[erico9001]

One thing I thought of after I had already made the video is doing a B-Reverse of Monado Art Activation (I apologize if there's an actual term for this that I don't know) and then holding the opposite way to do a Sliding Pivot.

This would have the same issue wouldn't it? You wouldn't be going at full speed in the air, so when you land, you aren't going to be going the full walk speed. I have tested it out and couldn't make it work.

On another note, I ended up figuring out the exact input necessary for a monado art wavebounce, and did it several times in a row. It's pretty easy in training mode. However, one I went up against just a lv 1 CPU, suddenly I could not do it anymore. In fact, even B-reversing was hard all of a sudden. Perhaps it is the CPU was distracting?

 

[McDareth]

This would have the same issue wouldn't it? You wouldn't be going at full speed in the air, so when you land, you aren't going to be going the full walk speed. I have tested it out and couldn't make it work.

On another note, I ended up figuring out the exact input necessary for a monado art wavebounce, and did it several times in a row. It's pretty easy in training mode. However, one I went up against just a lv 1 CPU, suddenly I could not do it anymore. In fact, even B-reversing was hard all of a sudden. Perhaps it is the CPU was distracting?

You probably wouldn't be going the same distance no, but you should still get a slide from it as long as the buffered turnaround happens. Like in this video someone made working on setups with Greninja using it he jumps in place and still gets some distance and that's similar to what I experienced when testing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78T0WLcfjhQ

Also I still don't know how/haven't seen the sliding wavebounce Monado Art moves (no idea what it's actually called lol). I've heard about it but have been waiting on someone to make a video explaining it D:

 

[gridatttack]

The sliding pivot looks promising. I would perhaps use it only in speed and smash art, as speed being the longest, and smash art having an above average sliding length, to get the D-throw.

Also, I can't believe why I didnt implemented empty hops in my playstyle. Previously, I had people shielding everything, now with empty hops I can go for a grab, and with smash art for the KO seems to be working for now, as people would expect I Fair them.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Here's a fun little string that turns the tables at the ledge. First hit of up air into Back Slash. It's easiest in Speed mode.

 

[erico9001]

The sliding pivot looks promising. I would perhaps use it only in speed and smash art, as speed being the longest, and smash art having an above average sliding length, to get the D-throw.

Also, I can't believe why I didnt implemented empty hops in my playstyle. Previously, I had people shielding everything, now with empty hops I can go for a grab, and with smash art for the KO seems to be working for now, as people would expect I Fair them.

Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm just confused because of the wording, but just in case, I will point out smash art does not have an improved sliding length. But yes, tomahawks and empty hops are great strategies! Very important for Shulk when being offensive.

 

[gridatttack]

Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm just confused because of the wording, but just in case, I will point out smash art does not have an improved sliding length. But yes, tomahawks and empty hops are great strategies! Very important for Shulk when being offensive.

I suppose its wording. What I mean is, I assume smash shulk has the same length as vanilla Shulk, which the video listed it at 5.6 blocks, which after looking at others, is above average.

Also, pardon my ignorance, but what are tomahawks?

 

[meleebrawler]

I suppose its wording. What I mean is, I assume smash shulk has the same length as vanilla Shulk, which the video listed it at 5.6 blocks, which after looking at others, is above average.

Also, pardon my ignorance, but what are tomahawks?

It's when you jump over someone without attacking them, with the goal of getting them to throw up their shield against a nonexistent attack allowing you to grab them.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So I completely forgot this somehow and since I did I'm gonna PSA remind you all in case you forgot too: Jump is best offensive art. Falling Jump Nair combos into freaking any other aerial and UTilt -> Fair -> Air Slash is the sexiest combo in the game. Plus your airspeed makes crossing up and sliding away from shields so easy. Plus it doesn't have the damage reduction Speed has. Plus tomahawks are a thing. Gah I love this art. Yeah the defense reduction blows and you're more susceptible to anti-airs, but I forgot just how much you can do off of it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does anyone have the shieldstun info? Like how many frames Bair/Nair/Fair have on shield now? I want to find out what is easily punishable and by what.

 

[meleebrawler]

Does anyone have the shieldstun info? Like how many frames Bair/Nair/Fair have on shield now? I want to find out what is easily punishable and by what.

Pretty sure they're all still punishable with poor spacing. Good spacing will prevent punishes especially with Buster.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Alright, so I just played oodles if epic Shulk dittos with Masonomace , and here are my findings.
1. MALLC is key to finding success, especially in Shulk dittos, where you are always changing your Art to counter the opponent's. I was finding a lot of success with MALLC fair -> fair, while Mace was rocking the MALLC up air more often than I've seen any Shulk do so in the past.
2. Against characters without a kill confirm, if Shulk can survive to absurd percents through use of not only Shield, but Jump and Speed as well (for recovering and evasion). If Mace got the first kill and used his arts effectively, an even game could soon turn into a two stock. Shulk does not have a reliable way to KO without a read, meaning that getting the first KO in a Shulk ditto is crucial.
3. Airborne counter does not work against multi-hit moves, like Shulk's forward smash. This lost me a very close game.
4. RAR nair is fairly effective in Speed mode.
5. Tomahawks are a great tactic that I wasn't using frequently enough.
6. Optimization is the next step after building solid fundamentals with Shulk. I was able to keep up with Mace through fundamentals, yet he seemed to always get the edge thanks to his greater optimization of the character. I believe that Shulk dittos are a great way to practice optimization, as the opponent's Monado Arts require instant adaptation. They put you in a variety of different scenarios that transition to each other much quicker than they do in other matchups, which forces you to not play from a flowchart and, consequently, improve optimization. Shulk does not have any easy bake combos that are the best option in every situation. Therefore, Shulk must be optimized through precise and well-spaced attacks, placed that in way that makes these otherwise laggy attacks flow cohesively.

Oh yeah, and--
7. Mace is pretty good.

 

[DarkenedHalo115]

Mobility arts really shut down other sword wielders!I used to never use jump but it's mixups and combos are so so good.I'm also learning to love smash,I love those times when I am stocks ahead and out smash when we are both at high percents.Due to that rage and percent along with smash making everyone about 1.5 lighter,the next hit is a death sentence.My opponents get so scared they mess up and practically hand me the KO.

 

[gridatttack]

I'm also learning to love smash,I love those times when I am stocks ahead and out smash when we are both at high percents.Due to that rage and percent along with smash making everyone about 1.5 lighter,the next hit is a death sentence.My opponents get so scared they mess up and practically hand me the KO.

I've been doing this for a while and it seems to work most of the time. It works nice when you have the stock lead, though it can also serve as an easy way for the opponent to KO you if they play it safe.

I also been taking the risk of using smash art when were both on our last stock at higher percents. There's practically no room for error as you are dead if you do. So far, tomahawking people seems to be working fine. I first bluff with Nairs and FH Fair, just to land without an attack when the opponent shields thinking I will do something and then go for D throw for the win...

Still, I sort of wish D throw launched opponents farther, as I have noted some opponents survive even if they are on 120% and Im at 110% in smash art...

 

[WindHero]

Mobility arts really shut down other sword wielders!I used to never use jump but it's mixups and combos are so so good.I'm also learning to love smash,I love those times when I am stocks ahead and out smash when we are both at high percents.Due to that rage and percent along with smash making everyone about 1.5 lighter,the next hit is a death sentence.My opponents get so scared they mess up and practically hand me the KO.

While I certainly agree that those arts are great, I wouldn't absolutely say they shut down opposing sword wielders. They certainly make life difficult, but it's also incredibly easy to start getting predictable with those arts. Any opponent worth their salt will capitalize on the predictability... So the key is to constantly mix it up. At least you added in about being ahead on stocks while in Smash mode... Good.

I've gotten narrowly beat by good Roys and Marths while playing Shulk, even when I abuse mobility. Even if Shulk is moving faster, his arms certainly aren't. (frame buffs when?) Still, I did have a great moment playing with a couple friends yesterday. Through judicious and constant use of Arts, I played a 3 player, 2 stock Free for All against a Charizard and a Pit, and 2-stocked them both. :epic: Made it all the way to 198%, largely thanks to Jump and Shield. Still, I made plenty of mistakes that match... Had I been fighting the current best on the island.... Welp. At least all 4 KOs were credited to me. xD

That aside, glad to hear people are having luck with the Monado lately. I'm currently trying to find a third main/secondary to complement my Shulk and Robin, and hopefully make life easier against certain opponents, like Meta Knight. I hear
Greninja and ZSS have good MUs with MK...

 

[Jinban]

Alright guys i haven't posted here in a while but i found something which i think is interesting and I posted it on the discord chat. Here's a copy of what i said (since i'm too lazy to rewrite it):

I've been thinking about some kind of option select with Shulk involving his up air this involves either having some pretty strict MALLC timing or using some of the other methods you can use for getting good MALLC. I try to use art selection > immediate SH or FH > Immediate art selection > FF. You can also do DJ > immediate art selection > FF if its close enough to the ground. So to do this OS you have to time the up air to hit a grounded opponent. If you're SHing it shouldn't be too bad to do after a little practice. If you're FHing or DJing you want to do Uair at the apex of the jump and immediately FF. This should result in the second hitbox coming out relatively close to the ground so it can launch up grounded opponents.

Anyway what i was thinking is that we try to perfect jump art MALLC the Uair on the opponent, we press grab so that on whiff we perfect MALLC and grab, we then press jump after the grab so if we hit them then we're put into landing lag and they're sent upwards and we can then go for the kill with another Uair which is a true combo at a decent range of percents e.g. on the 3ds version it kills sheik on fd in training mode from about 60-80%. you'll often have to DJ and you have to try and hit with the first hit of Uair to ensure the combo becomes true. It can still be true at higher percents when you hit with the second hit sourspot but the percentage range is a quite tight.

to elaborate on the reasoning for this option select:
It's designed to beat shields on whiff or get the kill on hit. If the formula for shielstun is correct then we should have about 7-8 frames of shieldstun due to the 10-11 damage of a fresh uair. If the MALLC is perfect or even a few frames less than that you should still be able to act out faster than your opponent so you can grab them with our frame 5 grab which is fast enough to get them while they're in shieldstun. If we get them on hit, since there's a little bit of self induced hitstun (I think that's what it's called), then we'll unfortunately take the full 17 frames of uair endlag. However that's okay because again 2nd hit uair to uair is still a true combo on a decent amount of percentages. Apart from that there are some obvious flaws. The 2nd hit Uair has a very narrow horizontal hitbox so you have to be pretty much on them for it to hit, and they can beat you out with pretty much any attack of their own, stuff like that is the reason that you shouldn't spam this. But otherwise tell me what you guys think


tl;dr option select with Uair by perfect jump art MALLCing, grab on whiff to beat shields, jump on hit to try and get an early kill with another uair true combo.

 

[DarkenedHalo115]

Here was a good match I had with a Roy.I first used only buster and speed since that's my style but he punished me pretty easily for massive damage.I won the next match as Dr. Mario and this was the deciding match.I went mobile arts so I could mixup easily and it really worked,especially jump!









I ended up tomahawking with jump so often my opponent starting spot dodging so I then got f-smash punishes.I love jump now!

 

[WindHero]

Jinban Nice find, if only I was consistent enough with MALLC to start testing that...

DarkenedHalo115 Definitely can relate to that. I always loved speed and buster against Roy, but they love our Buster since we already take tons of damage from them. More than one Roy has told me, however, that our mobility arts make it much harder to deal with us. Thinking about how you said you conditioned them to spot dodge on tomohawks, I think you could have really capitalized if you MALLC'd into Buster FSmash, then cancelled the art before they could react. idk, just a thought.

 

[DarkenedHalo115]

Jinban Nice find, if only I was consistent enough with MALLC to start testing that...

DarkenedHalo115 Definitely can relate to that. I always loved speed and buster against Roy, but they love our Buster since we already take tons of damage from them. More than one Roy has told me, however, that our mobility arts make it much harder to deal with us. Thinking about how you said you conditioned them to spot dodge on tomohawks, I think you could have really capitalized if you MALLC'd into Buster FSmash, then cancelled the art before they could react. idk, just a thought.

I just thought of something dirty!So you bair mallc(into buster) and f-smash.Now that won't break shields so shields beat that.But how about you bair a bit before you hit the ground so hit on shield lag stalls the f-smash and you can move your c-stick to buffer d-smash.So you option select for a hit/whiff and f-smash,and on shield hits with d-smash.So you cover no shield,spotdodge(f-smash covers that,shield,grab and maybe up specials out of shield(art invincibility)That option select sounds grossly good,going to need to test that out.

 

[gridatttack]

Jinban that sounds interesting, but I wonder, is there some video of someone doing that? I'm afraid I can't quite picture it by reading :S

 

[Jinban]

Jinban that sounds interesting, but I wonder, is there some video of someone doing that? I'm afraid I can't quite picture it by reading :S

Not atm man, i don't usually do videos but guess i'll try when all my projects are done n stuff. Don't expect high quality as use a 3ds with no capture card.

 

[Goesasu]

i went to a 120 man tourney and finished 33.

Everything was ok until a wild pro sheik appreared and i couldnt do a thing, like really, i got stompped hard. I switched to robin and almost made a comeback, i was 180% and he 130% last stock but i took a ftilt and the dream die right there.

I feel good about it in general, even was able to turn the tables around after a very early spike from a falcon winning that set. But im sad of being unable to fight back against sheik, maybe i should have used more jump art to avoid getting hit and to create and opening dont know. Clearly a match up i need to learn.

 

[erico9001]

Monado Jump tomahawks -> D-smash are legitimate. Hits them if they shield, air dodge, or roll around us.

Also Monado Speed buffered deactivation (walk) -> sliding D-smash works too

edit: The reason for this is they can't unshield between the hits anymore (Masonomace discovered this). The sliding distance from a jump tomahawk or a buffered speed walking deactivation keeps them from sliding out of range. However, this may depend on the friction value for each character specifically. Maybe you don't have the need for speed.
-Whether it will actually shield poke seems to depend on character. Definitely works on other Shulks, but a Greninja I faced was able to shield all three hits. Though, then it ALMOST breaks the shield... and they are left somewhat defenseless for a while...

 

[Goesasu]

Monado Jump tomahawks -> D-smash are legitimate. Hits them if they shield, air dodge, or roll around us.

Also Monado Speed buffered deactivation (walk) -> sliding D-smash works too

edit: The reason for this is they can't unshield between the hits anymore (Masonomace discovered this). The sliding distance from a jump tomahawk or a buffered speed walking deactivation keeps them from sliding out of range. However, this may depend on the friction value for each character specifically. Maybe you don't have the need for speed.
-Whether it will actually shield poke seems to depend on character. Definitely works on other Shulks, but a Greninja I faced was able to shield all three hits. Though, then it ALMOST breaks the shield... and they are left somewhat defenseless for a while...

TY i ll try.

 

[Zatchiel]

But im sad of being unable to fight back against sheik, maybe i should have used more jump art to avoid getting hit and to create and opening dont know. Clearly a match up i need to learn.

It's surely an exhausting match up to approach. Sheik's frame data leaves Shulk in the dust. Did you struggle with anything in specific, that you noticed? Besides the obvious difference in frame data, we all seem to struggle with different aspects of the match up.

From what I've explored, a simple but effective tactic is just breaking down her neutral and creating openings that way. Powershield as much as you can. That's a tall order against Sheik, but even just shielding her attacks one after the other encourages more grabbing. She has to get you into the air somehow to put on her damage/juggle you. Try to stay grounded to land a grab or jab. (Forward) Vision if the Sheik is jab or tilt happy.

Monado Jump tomahawks -> D-smash are legitimate. Hits them if they shield, air dodge, or roll around us.

This is godlike, especially at the ledge. Touching noses with an opponent in shield tends to cause them to react with a grab, unless they have a great out of shield option or an inclination to dodge. Dsmash works well for counteracting a number of those options.

 

[gridatttack]

I always hated Sheik. I switch to Pit instead now, as I got 2 stocked (almost JV3) against a good one and left me scarred

Any info like the above is greatly appreciated, as I couldn't pick up much on the MU thread other than perhaps being a -2 for us :<

Monado Jump tomahawks -> D-smash are legitimate. Hits them if they shield, air dodge, or roll around us.

Hmmm, Interesting. Will try out. Sounds promising at the edges.
If they are roll happy, wouldn't facing the other way and Dsmash them would hit them with the strong hit?

 

[Goesasu]

It's surely an exhausting match up to approach. Sheik's frame data leaves Shulk in the dust. Did you struggle with anything in specific, that you noticed? Besides the obvious difference in frame data, we all seem to struggle with different aspects of the match up.

From what I've explored, a simple but effective tactic is just breaking down her neutral and creating openings that way. Powershield as much as you can. That's a tall order against Sheik, but even just shielding her attacks one after the other encourages more grabbing. She has to get you into the air somehow to put on her damage/juggle you. Try to stay grounded to land a grab or jab. (Forward) Vision if the Sheik is jab or tilt happy.


This is godlike, especially at the ledge. Touching noses with an opponent in shield tends to cause them to react with a grab, unless they have a great out of shield option or an inclination to dodge. Dsmash works well for counteracting a number of those options.

Tried this already, its really good, not bullet proof but very reliable and im very gratefull for sharing this knowledge.

Yesterday i played a very good sheik in for glory (i know i know not the same and there was no lag)...but he was able to 2 stock me the first round while doing all the good sheik stuff, including the 50/50 kill confirm and everything. This was super usefull for me because i know understand it very well and try to read what to do (jump or dodge or how smash art actually allows you to avoid that completely). The last is very important, smash art allows shulk to survive longer because it nullifies sheik 50/50 and also lets us kill her a lot easier.
Shield art at the very beggining nullifies sheiks combos and jump art used wisely can be crucial to kill and to survive at very high % avoiding sheik and creating opening. All this knowledge allow me to win the second and third set!!!! the guy even changed characters since he was very good with a lot of them and his sheik wasnt winning against me.

We played for about 2 hours, he played sheik, cap falcon, mario, marth, diddy, ZSS, sonic and dk if i remember correctly. I won about 70% of our matches, he was very good and probably better than me, but i was using shulk to the fullest and i can honestly say that my abilities with shulk and reads led me to the victory most of the time, something i couldnt have done with other character.

Feeling really good about this, with a little more match up experience sheik shouldnt be this freightening monster for too long.

 

[erico9001]

I always hated Sheik. I switch to Pit instead now, as I got 2 stocked (almost JV3) against a good one and left me scarred

Any info like the above is greatly appreciated, as I couldn't pick up much on the MU thread other than perhaps being a -2 for us :<



Hmmm, Interesting. Will try out. Sounds promising at the edges.
If they are roll happy, wouldn't facing the other way and Dsmash them would hit them with the strong hit?

That would work under the condition you are pretty sure that they are not going to shield it. If they do just shield it, they would be able to punish it due to the lack of shield poke. In addition, I'm not too sure of all the the logistics. If somebody rolls in anticipation of an aerial, would we be able to land and put the hitbox out soon enough in order to hit him? Maybe if they roll last minute it would but not if they roll earlier? Under the anticipation of a roll behind, might it be better to just plan out a Bair to hit them before you reach the ground? I'm just not really sure. This isn't specific to the back hit, forward hit too. The back hit comes out even later, so to turn it around for the forward hit might even be the solution. I wish I could say exactly what would happen at this moment, but I guess we just need to test it out in real battles .

Anyways, something I like about D-Smash tomahawks is that, unlike grabs, you can still be spaced out with your large disjointed hitboxes. Though, this raises another important question: does it actually work when spaced out, or does it have to be the larger damage blade hitbox? I also wonder what would happen if you were to charge it a little bit before releasing.

I'm curious about the logistics of if it actually may work against people who roll away, because the ridiculous sliding distances of monado jump landing from full speed and buffered deactivation of monado speed into a walk could allow you to sort of chase them with your attack.
You can reference my video when I discovered MABD for how far you slide with monado speed buffered deactivation into a walk:

You know, a thought just occurred to me... how far does Monado Speed MABD -> Run -> Up Smash slide? Certainly should go longer than the slide distance of the walk, which is already quite long, due to going at higher speed. If so, it could have similar application to Brawl DACUS. You would just need to input the up smash before you slow down, so the sooner the better.

Mm, wondering what your thoughts are on all this. I'm not by a smash game right now, so I can't test.

 

[FOcast]

You know, a thought just occurred to me... how far does Monado Speed MABD -> Run -> Up Smash slide? Certainly should go longer than the slide distance of the walk, which is already quite long, due to going at higher speed. If so, it could have similar application to Brawl DACUS. You would just need to input the up smash before you slow down, so the sooner the better.

Mm, wondering what your thoughts are on all this. I'm not by a smash game right now, so I can't test.

That's a great question - theoretically, sliding Speed USmash distance should be reduced by Speed mode's increased friction. I wonder if we get more distance after MADB if we have the same Speed, but no friction increase.

 

[erico9001]

I did testing of the slide distances of MABD (Monado Art Buffered Deactivation) from Speed -> JCUp-Smash, as well as a lot of other slide distances. So to start here is a simple MSJCUS (Monado Speed Jump-Cancelled Up Smash).

The middle of the lava sticking up and the lower level without any lava is 1 square in the stage builder. For this example, Shulk traveled over 6.5 squares, maybe 6.7?
(later retest of ms jcus suggests 6.5 slide distance)

MABD Speed JCUS

9 squares. Travels about 38% farther

That's actually quite a significant difference. You can have it where you travel too far so the first hit of up smash connects but the second hit whiffs. It's a good idea to charge your up smash to increase damage and knockback

Here's a video demonstrating (I should have been charging it, but it gets the point across)

Here's the slide distance of MABD from Speed -> Walk -> stop walking or do some attack

6.5 squares
This is still just an amazing slide distance. If you get the chance to, I really recommend doing this.

Monado Speed walking without the buffered deactivation:

4 squares.
Not bad.

Here is the slide distance of monado jump landing from full air speed:

5.5 squares. Nice.

The same thing but with monado jump deactivation buffered (should be the same):

5.5 again.

Monado Art Run Cancel (MARC or MADC) slide distance):

5 squares... that's actually pretty damn far. Should we be MARC'ing into Buster D-Smash?

5 squares
This is interesting. Would have thought speed to travel less distance due to its increased friction.
I tested this again, but with entering an attack or input, and then Shulk was affected by friction. The normal 5 sliding distance is only obtained if you remain in the leaning over animation that plays at the start of the art's activation. Otherwise, you get like 3 spaces.

5 squares again, unsurprisingly.

This next one is the slide distance of when monado speed turns around after being at full air speed (Sliding pivots, video can be seen at the top of this page). I measure it so that at the line, Shulk has finished turning around and is just sliding, no longer walking.

5 squares. Mm. That is a fair distance. It is greater than the 4 squares you get with monado speed simply walking, so there is some credibility to the technique.

Vanilla jump cancelled up smash:

3.5.
Interesting that this is much less than the MARC slide distance and monado jump landing. Even smaller than monado speed walking. Also, without the jump cancelling, it is just pathetic distance (didn't record it as it was like 2 or something)

But here's something I was curious about. Does jump cancelling actually matter?

Here is the slide distance of a plain running up smash in monado speed:

6 squares.

And jc up smash?:

More like 6.5 squares.

So that's an improvement right? WRONG. This is actually a downgrade from a regular running up smash because:

This is how far you slide while in monado speed's jump crouch. 2 spaces.

You slide with the jump crouch for 2 spaces, but only slide with the up smash inputted for 4.5 squares (6.5 – 2 = 4.5). Therefore, you are charging your up smash for a lesser distance and time, meaning in the end you will have a weaker up smash compared to the running up smash. While yes, it does cover .5 squares more overall, you could simply make up for that .5 distance by running just that amount farther in monado speed, with no negative downsides to your speed.

So jump cancel up smashes in monado speed are not good. However, they appear to improve the slide distance when doing a mabd from monado speed. For some reason, running up smash from a mabd from speed only travels...

5 squares.

-------------------------------------​

Data summarized:

move|slide distance
MABD MSpeed JCUS|9 or 7 (-2 for jump crouch)
MABD MSpeed Walk|6.5
MSpeed JCUS|6.5 or 4.5 (-2 for jump crouch)
MSpeed Running Up Smash|6
MJump Landing|5.5
MSpeed Sliding Pivot|5
MARC|5
MSpeed Walk|4
Vanilla JCUS|3.5
MSpeed jump crouch|2

Findings:
-Speed's jump cancelled up smash is worse than speed's running up smash (despite the appearance of longer slide distance)
-MABD from Speed -> run -> jump cancelled up smash travels quite far. The jump cancel is needed here.
-MARC has an unexpectedly large slide distance
-Speed MARC travels the same distance unless the activation animation is interrupted
-MABD MSpeed Walk has a great slide distance

Also
-MABD -> Buster D-Smash is nice because they can't unshield between the hits and get shield poked.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Alright guys i haven't posted here in a while but i found something which i think is interesting and I posted it on the discord chat. Here's a copy of what i said (since i'm too lazy to rewrite it):

I've been thinking about some kind of option select with Shulk involving his up air this involves either having some pretty strict MALLC timing or using some of the other methods you can use for getting good MALLC. I try to use art selection > immediate SH or FH > Immediate art selection > FF. You can also do DJ > immediate art selection > FF if its close enough to the ground. So to do this OS you have to time the up air to hit a grounded opponent. If you're SHing it shouldn't be too bad to do after a little practice. If you're FHing or DJing you want to do Uair at the apex of the jump and immediately FF. This should result in the second hitbox coming out relatively close to the ground so it can launch up grounded opponents.

Anyway what i was thinking is that we try to perfect jump art MALLC the Uair on the opponent, we press grab so that on whiff we perfect MALLC and grab, we then press jump after the grab so if we hit them then we're put into landing lag and they're sent upwards and we can then go for the kill with another Uair which is a true combo at a decent range of percents e.g. on the 3ds version it kills sheik on fd in training mode from about 60-80%. you'll often have to DJ and you have to try and hit with the first hit of Uair to ensure the combo becomes true. It can still be true at higher percents when you hit with the second hit sourspot but the percentage range is a quite tight.

to elaborate on the reasoning for this option select:
It's designed to beat shields on whiff or get the kill on hit. If the formula for shielstun is correct then we should have about 7-8 frames of shieldstun due to the 10-11 damage of a fresh uair. If the MALLC is perfect or even a few frames less than that you should still be able to act out faster than your opponent so you can grab them with our frame 5 grab which is fast enough to get them while they're in shieldstun. If we get them on hit, since there's a little bit of self induced hitstun (I think that's what it's called), then we'll unfortunately take the full 17 frames of uair endlag. However that's okay because again 2nd hit uair to uair is still a true combo on a decent amount of percentages. Apart from that there are some obvious flaws. The 2nd hit Uair has a very narrow horizontal hitbox so you have to be pretty much on them for it to hit, and they can beat you out with pretty much any attack of their own, stuff like that is the reason that you shouldn't spam this. But otherwise tell me what you guys think


tl;dr option select with Uair by perfect jump art MALLCing, grab on whiff to beat shields, jump on hit to try and get an early kill with another uair true combo.

So basically it is a win/win situation, is there a downside? Or a way to escape?

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

It's an option select. Nice!

 

[Sonicninja115]

What do you guys think? It should be amazing in speed mode. (Note: I knew about boost grabs before this vid, it just has more options and I think it is better.)

 

[erico9001]

@notyourparadigm raised something really neat to me. She was playing against somebody on stream, and her going to monado smash gave the opponent enough fear to keep him from attack her much, giving her time to let monado shield come back.

It's a great idea, and I'm going to start implementing it. I usually like to use Monado Jump to dodge around out of reach as I wait for Monado Shield, but maybe it would be safer to use Monado Smash in the circumstance we are both at kill percents.

 

[gridatttack]

I suppose it depends on the player though, as I have done that in order to scare opponents and instead they go in and try to land anything to put me in trouble.

When stalling to the shield back, I MALLC into smash art and see if I can do something. If not, I cancel it and then switch to jump. If the opponent gets the hang of it, I switch to speed to try stay low. after all that, pretty much Shield art is usable again.