Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[meleebrawler]

It's a sad day for Cloud when all Shulk has to do to gimp him is point his Monado towards him.

 

[Masonomace]

Damage values are updated in the Damage Tables. Man oh man do those Enchant I mean Buster art damages look delicious! I'll also include more info about the transition from jumping to landing & how that's affected when a mobility art such as Jump Speed or Shield is active. This will hope to steer some attention towards how exactly we want to be landing, even if the lag state reduction is small.

Expect more edits to the OP near the end of the weekend. Until then, I'm off to a couple of tournaments! Bye Shulk metagame.

EDIT: Redid Shulk kill percents with Nair, since the whole 0.5% damage buff to the sweet & sourspots. Check it out:

Updated Ver. 1.1.3
Going into Training Mode, I tested the 1% difference between Nair Blade 7.5% & Nair Beam 8.5% to compare the kill percentages against a CPU Shulk set to Control at the very center of Omega Gaur Plains without applying DI. These percents were found by setting the current damage before getting hit by said Nair. So if Vanilla Nair Blade below says 235%, that means I set the damage to 235% & then used Nair Blade to see the Deadly blow effect appearing.

Vanilla: When Shulk's at 235%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 211%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.

Speed & DSpeed: When Shulk's at 237%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 213%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.
HSpeed: When Shulk's at 238%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 214%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.

Shield & DShield: When Shulk's at 237%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 214%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.
HShield: When Shulk's at 238%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 215%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.

Smash: When Shulk's at 189%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 170%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.
DSmash: When Shulk's at 163%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 147%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.
HSmash: When Shulk's at 143%, Nair Blade's Deadly Blow appears. When Shulk's at 128%, Nair Beam's Deadly Blow appears.


Pre-patch 1.0.4 - 1.1.2
Nair Blade dealt 7% while Nair Beam dealt 8%. These percents were found by me setting the current damage before getting hit by said Nair. So if Vanilla Nair Blade says 249%, that means I set the damage to 249% & then used Nair Blade to see the Deadly blow effect appearing.

Vanilla: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow spark starts appearing at 249%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow spark starts appearing at 223%.

Speed & DSpeed: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 251%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 224%.
HSpeed: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 252%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 225%.

Shield & DShield: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 251%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 225%.
HShield: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow spark starts appearing at 252%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow spark starts appearing at 226%.

Smash: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 199%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 179%.
DSmash: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 173%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 155%.
HSmash: Nair Blade's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 151%. Nair Beam's Deadly Blow starts appearing at 135%.

 

[Jayroach3]

Shulk can actually mallc a nair and true combo it into a running jump air slash that will kill as early as the 50s with smash art near ledge or 80s with jump art

 

[Sonicninja115]

Shulk can actually mallc a nair and true combo it into a running jump air slash that will kill as early as the 50s with smash art near ledge or 80s with jump art

Really? That sounds awesome! Is this because of the latest patch?

 

[Jayroach3]

Really? That sounds awesome! Is this because of the latest patch?

We've always had it since it involves the use of mallc but it's pretty nice for cheesing out stocks

 

[Masonomace]

So I'm bringing up something I don't think we've talked about in full detail: Grab release for Shulk.

So I did some testing for it, & it goes like this. When you grab release a character without inputting a pummel or a throw, they'll either perform a grounded or airborne release naturally, so it's character-specific. Mashing pummel on the ground will usually force the ground release even against characters who naturally have the airborne release. The only the way to get the airborne release from characters who normally have a ground release is by grabbing them near the ledge enough that they'll dangle offstage, or if they input a jump button, Utilt, or Usmash command. Although, if a grabbed character is near the ledge & you mash pummels, you'll force the ground release regardless of whether they mash or not. Interestingly, some characters that naturally have the airborne release from the ground won't fly any farther back when mashing, but some characters that naturally have the ground release slide farther back when mashing out of the grab or us pummeling. So that's something to consider. Also, when a ground release takes place, both parties have neutral advantage meaning no one has frame advantage over the other. However, if you make them mash to break free or you mash pummels to force their ground release traveling farther, then it doesn't hurt to use a Dtilt or Ftilt especially with Buster art.

And one more thing. There's only one character that this grab release setup works on, but it's better than nothing right?

Okay, so I said one more thing, but I'm in progress of making a table of grab release distances & rating a Key on how far they're apart from us during a regular Ground release, Air release, all that. Stay tuned.

 

[ArtAtk]

Spoiler: [DEBUNKED: Monado Art Beat theory. REASON: MA activation = 46 frames, not divisible by multiple MAB]

It's Shulk Time, My Fellow Shulk Mains!
Here is a post regarding my findings about what fundamentally makes Shulk "tick".​

So, to begin, I have concluded that Vanilla Shulk has an underlying elementary "unit of time" to all of his basic movements, which is defined as follows:​

"The duration of time (inclusive) between initiating an art cycle (to the next available art; i.e. upon immediately pressing [Special], a semi-transparent, lens-flared Kanji pops into existence)​

and the art cycling rest state (i.e. when the selected Kanji becomes fully opaque/non-lens-flared but cycling hasn't finished nor has activation occurred)."​

For brevity, I propose we call this the "Monado Art Beat" or MAB/Art Beat since the animation looks like the heartbeat of the Monado, a memorable pun! (What a bunch'a Jokers!)​

So how does the MAB (in terms of time) correspond to Vanilla Shulk's movement (in terms of distance) with respect to the main platform, you may ask?

WHY IT'S ELEMENTARY, MY DEAR NOPON!!!​

Here are what I believe to be the fundamental "distances" equal to integer (0,1,2) amounts of "MAB" (< 3 required for MA selection's duration):​

0 MABs/ArtBeats = "DAB" or Down (Art) beat (i.e. press [Special] IMMEDIATELY right before initiating any another other movements)

1 MAB/Art Beat = "MAB" (perform single Art Beat before initiating any other movements), 2 full-tilt walking strides, 1 full-tilt running stride, "hang-time" (duration after reaching jump-apex before you can fast-fall for ANY jump),

short hop (rise or fall) (*1), full hop (fast-fall to ground), teabag (stand-->crouch-->stand), Smashville/Battlefield side platform (fast-fall through to main platform)​

2 MABs/Art Beats = full hop (rise or fall) (*1), full hop-->double jump (fast-fall to ground), Smashville/Battlefield side platform (fall through to main platform), Battlefield top platform (fast-fall through to main platform),

MAB/teabag-->short hop (rise)
​

Simply adding up combinations of these fundamental distances/MABs,
Shulk can now plan out advanced techniques with greater ease than ever before!​

3 MABs/Art Beats = MA selection's duration (MA appearance-->MA activation), wherein one can:

Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel (MALLC) (*3) (*4)
DAB-->short hop (rise + hang-time + fall), DAB-->[full hop (hangtime + fall)], DAB-->[short hop->double jump (hangtime + fast-fall to ground)],
MAB-->Smashville/Battlefield side platform (fall through to main platform), MAB-->Battlefield top platform (fast-fall through to main platform),
DAB-->Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->short hop (rise + hang-time + fast-fall to main platform), DAB-->[Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->full hop-->double jump (fast-fall to main platform)],
When starting on Battlefield's top/side platform-->DAB-->run off platform-->fall to side/main platform, etc...
Turnaround/B-reverse/Wavebounce
DAB-->short hop-->double jump (rise), DAB-->short hop (fall)-->land-->short hop (rise + hang-time),
MAB-->full hop (or double jump) (rise), MAB-->short hop (rise + hang-time), MAB-->teabag-->short hop (rise),
DAB-->2 running or 4 walking strides (*2)-->short hop (rise), DAB-->teabag-->1 running or 2 walking strides (*2)-->short hop (rise), DAB-->teabag-->teabag-->short hop (rise)

Monado Art Dash Cancel (MADC)
DAB-->3 running or 6 walking strides (*2) , MAB-->2 running or 4 walking strides (*2) , DAB-->teabag-->2 running or 4 walking strides (*2), MAB-->teabag-->1 running or 2 walking strides (*2)​

The following MAB (> 3 required for MA selection's duration) guidelines can also be used for potential setups of aformentioned Shulk techniques:​

4 MABs/Art Beats = full hop (rise + hang-time + fast-fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB exactly halfway through the full hop (rise)
5 MABs/Art Beats = full hop (rise + hang-time + fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB before the apex of the full hop (hangtime)
6 MABs/Art Beats = short hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fast-fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB before the apex of the double jump (hangtime)
7 MABs/Art Beats = full hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fast-fall), =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB just before the fastfall of the double jump (fast-fall)

short hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB right as you start descending from double jump (fall)​

8 MABs/Art Beats = Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->short hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fall to main platform)
9 MABs/Art Beats = Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->full hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fast-fall to main platform)
10 MABs/Art Beats= Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->full hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fall to main platform)
etc... [ Note: Keep in mind that on Battlefield the same vertical distance exists between the side/main platforms as with the top/side platforms, so the exact same # of MABs/Art Beats will also apply in the latter case ]

Notes: (*1) Shulk's Jump-squat animation is 5 frames, however the window for MALLC/B-reverse/Wavebounce is ~5 frames due to the nature of special moves/art activation, effectively negating slight time discrepancies.

(*2) Also, his initial dash's 1st running stride is slightly longer than his subsequent running strides, so either account for a slightly later DAB/MAB or only begin selecting your art when already in a full-tilt run.
(*3) Obviously shield/hit stun upon landing an attack messes up the timing of MALLC, so inputting a DAB slightly later than usual should compensate for this, allowing you to safely pressure shields from a distance with, say, a short hop delayed-DAB (right after pressing jump) b-air on shield into MALLC.
(*4) Shulk's Fair and Bair do not effect his fast-fall momentum, meanwhile his Nair, Dair and Uair all will slow down his fast-fall momentum (aerial breaking), so keep this in mind when landing MALLC (especially upon shield/hit stun); It's definitely possible to reapply fast-fall after you use those specific aerials.
​

You can easily verify/confirm any of these specific timings for yourself by empty cycling MABs while performing these movements!
(Though be mindful of the "states" in which Shulk is unable to cycle his arts, like during the falling through animation for example)

(Ex. the total duration for a full-hop from ground to ground should be exactly 5 MABs, I recommend using 1/4 speed in Training Mode)

So is the Monado Art Beat or MAB legit or not? Lemme know what you think, thanks!!!​

Updated and annotated Monado Art Beat = 10 frames video (sorry mobile users)!

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's Shulk Time, My Fellow Shulk Mains!
Here is a post regarding my findings about what fundamentally makes Shulk "tick".
(I apologize if I'm re-treading over any old ground here, my bad!)​

So, to begin, I have concluded that Vanilla Shulk has an underlying elementary "unit of time" to all of his basic movements, which is defined as follows:​

"The duration of time (inclusive) between initiating an art cycle (to the next available art; i.e. upon immediately pressing [Special], a semi-transparent, lens-flared Kanji pops into existence) ​

and the art cycling rest state (i.e. when the selected Kanji becomes fully opaque/non-lens-flared but cycling hasn't finished nor has activation occurred)."​

For brevity, let's call this "time unit" the "Monado Art Beat" or MAB/Art Beat since the animation it corresponds to looks like a heartbeat and is a memorable pun! (What a bunch'a Jokers!)​

So how does the MAB (in terms of time) correspond to Vanilla Shulk's movement (in terms of distance) with respect to the main platform, you may ask?

WHY IT'S ELEMENTARY, MY DEAR NOPON!!!​

"Fundamental "distances" which equal integer amounts of "MAB" (< 3 required for MA selection's duration )".​

0 MABs/ArtBeats = "DAB" or Down (Art) beat (i.e. press [Special] IMMEDIATELY right before initiating any another other movements)

1 MAB/Art Beat = "MAB" (i.e. single Art Beat delay, then actually use selected art!), teabag (stand-->crouch-->stand), 2 full-tilt walking strides, 1 full-tilt running stride, "hang-time" (duration after reaching jump-apex before

you can fast-fall for ANY jump), short hop (rise or fall) (*1), full hop (fast-fall to ground), Smashville/Battlefield side platform (fast-fall through to main platform)​

2 MABs/Art Beats = full hop (rise or fall) (*1), full hop-->double jump (fast-fall to ground), Smashville/Battlefield side platform (fall through to main platform), Battlefield top platform (fast-fall through to main platform),

MAB/teabag-->short hop (rise)
​

Simply adding up combinations of these aforementioned fundamental distances/MABs,
Shulk can now plan out advanced techniques with greater ease than ever before!​

*3 MABs/Art Beats* = MA selection's duration (MA appearance-->MA activation), wherein:

Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel (MALLC) Opportunities (*3) (*4)
DAB-->short hop (rise + hang-time + fall), DAB-->[full hop (hangtime + fall)], DAB-->[short hop->double jump (hangtime + fast-fall to ground)],
MAB-->Smashville/Battlefield side platform (fall through to main platform), MAB-->Battlefield top platform (fast-fall through to main platform),
DAB-->Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->short hop (rise + hang-time + fast-fall to main platform), DAB-->[Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->full hop-->double jump (fast-fall to main platform)],
When starting on Battlefield's top/side platform-->DAC-->run off platform-->fall to side/main platform, etc...​

Turnaround/B-reverse/Wavebounce Opportunities
DAB-->short hop-->double jump (rise), DAB-->short hop (fall)-->land-->short hop (rise + hang-time),
MAB-->full hop (or double jump) (rise), MAB-->short hop (rise + hang-time), MAB-->teabag-->short hop (rise),
DAB-->2 running or 4 walking strides (*2)-->short hop (rise), DAB-->teabag-->1 running or 2 walking strides (*2)-->short hop (rise), DAB-->teabag-->teabag-->short hop (rise)

Monado Art Dash Cancel (MADC) Opportunities
DAB-->3 running or 6 walking strides (*2) , MAB-->2 running or 4 walking strides (*2) , DAB-->teabag-->2 running or 4 walking strides (*2), MAB-->teabag-->1 running or 2 walking strides (*2) ​

The following MAB (> 3 required for MA selection's duration) guidelines can also be used for potential setups of aformentioned Shulk techniques:​

4 MABs/Art Beats = full hop (rise + hang-time + fast-fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB exactly halfway through the full hop (rise)
5 MABs/Art Beats = full hop (rise + hang-time + fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB before the apex of the full hop (hangtime)
6 MABs/Art Beats = short hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fast-fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB before the apex of double jump (hangtime)
7 MABs/Art Beats = full hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fast-fall), =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB before the apex of the full hop (hangtime)

short hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fall) =======> For MALLC, you want to DAB during the double jump (fall)​

8 MABs/Art Beats = Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->short hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fall to main platform)
9 MABs/Art Beats = Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->full hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fast-fall to main platform)
10 MABs/Art Beats= Smashville/Battlefield side platform-->full hop-->double jump (rise + hang-time + fall to main platform)
etc... [ Note: Keep in mind that on Battlefield the same vertical distance exists between the side/main platforms as with the top/side platforms, so the exact same # of MABs/Art Beats will also apply in the latter case ]

Notes: (*1) Shulk's Jump-squat animation is 5 frames, however the window for MALLC/B-reverse/Wavebounce is ~5 frames due to the nature of special moves/art activation, effectively negating slight time discrepancies.

(*2) Also, his initial dash's 1st running stride is slightly longer than his subsequent running strides, so either account for a slightly later DAB/MAB or only begin selecting your art when already in a full-tilt run.
(*3) Obviously shield/hit stun upon landing an attack messes up the timing of MALLC, so inputting a DAB slightly later than usual should compensate for this,allowing you to safely pressure shields from a distance with, say, a short hop delayed-DAB (right after pressing jump) b-air on shield into MALLC.
(*4) Shulk's Fair and Bair do not effect his fast-fall momentum, meanwhile his Nair, Dair and Uair all will slow down his fast-fall momentum (aerial breaking), so keep this in mind when landing MALLC (especially upon shield/hit stun); It's definitely possible to reapply fast-fall after your use those specific aerials.
​

You can easily verify/confirm any of these specific timings for yourself by empty cycling MABs while performing these movements!
(Though be mindful of the "states" in which Shulk is unable to cycle his arts, like during the falling through animation for example)
(For example, the total duration for a full-hop from ground to ground should be exactly 5 MABs, I recommend using 1/4 speed in Training Mode)

So I definitely put quite a bit of thought, time, and effort into recognizing all of the many different setups for Shulk's Adv. Tech,
and I'm curious to hear your replies as to whether you think the Monado Art Beat or MAB is legit or not. Thanks!!!​

I am sorry, but I am really confused... Is this an article talking about what you can do in the time between changing an Art?

 

[ArtAtk]

I am sorry, but I am really confused... Is this an article talking about what you can do in the time between changing an Art?

Sorry for any confusion, I tried to edit/format my original post a bit better now; it's not an article by the way it's just something I've been researching and coming to understand for the last little while and thought I'd finally share.

Edit: Having read his reply a little ways down, Masonomace is right in that any sort of timing arithmetic should only be with respect to Shulk's Frame data. Hence my updated and annotated Youtube video below (Sorry mobile users!).

In the past, videos like Distant Kingdoms' MALLC video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34v54e5lhjQ have had us memorize specific points along the trajectory of Shulk's jump animations, such as when exiting the tuckroll of his double jump followed by a fast-fall, in order to execute MALLC but without actually explaining why these timings are the way they are.

In essence, I'm proposing that Shulk's physics (sh/fh, run/walk, fall through, etc.) are intentionally coded with the Monado Art activation duration/cycle in mind (which I've discovered to be equal to exactly three MABs or Monado Art Beats; you can even see the second and third MABs visually depicted in the brightness of the miniature Kanji located above Shulk's profile picture as it fades out [MAB #2] and then back in [MAB #3] ) This knowledge ideally facilitates coordination of Shulk's movements with Monado Art activation in order to perform his advanced techniques such as MALLC, B-reverse/Wavebounce, or MADC.

So if you can imagine of (and of course perform) any series of Shulk's movements adding up to three MAB, you will be able to precisely coordinate Monado Art Activation to occur simultaneously with the downbeat of the fourth MAB, theoretically allowing Shulk to consistently do things including but not limited to: MALLC from or falling though platforms, sh/fh/dbl jump B-reverse/Wavebounce, or even MADC 2 or 1 MABs after landing on the ground.

I say theoretically but I am actually already incorporating these fundamental facets into my gameplay. I can definitely post a video of my Shulk on Battlefield to help illustrate exactly what I mean (when I get the time).

 

[ArtAtk]

So, I made an annotated video (sorry mobile users!), please check it out!

its ~3 minutes long and demonstrates my methods for: Edit: included jumpsquat

• MALLC via MAB + fall from side platform, MAB + fast-fall from top platforms, MALLC from running off side platform (Not frame perfect)
• Some regular sh/fh MALLC for good measure. (Not frame perfect)
• Then it goes into a few (MAB + jumpsquat + 1/2 full hop) B-rev/Wavebounce, two (MAB + teabag + jumpsquat + short hop) BR/WB, and a single (MAB + dbl jump) BR/WB.
• Next I show how Shulk's walk and run strides coincide with 2 and 1 MAB's respectively. DEBUNKED BY FRMAE DATA
• Some more B-reverses/wavebounces, this time adding c-sticked aerials

 

[Masonomace]

It has a neat research behind it Artatk. I like the concept of it, but I think that there's more than 3 beats so-to-speak. I could be totally wrong here just throwing that out there.
When you cycle to an art, you see that the kanji character is lit up the moment it's cycled to. Then, you see that the kanji fades & then lights up again followed by the art activating after it's lit. Going by this, the art activation would mean that it's happening when said art's kanji character would be fading again, making it 4 beats in one cycle process.

Think of it from this perspective now. An art you cycled to & selected activating, now watching an art that would be on cooldown. When the art on cooldown is cycled to & selected, the art's beating stops the moment it vanishes, followed by the art visually seen behind Shulk on the screen fades away. The 4th beat that would be there to be the activation indicator flashes, but since it's an art on cooldown the flash activation indicator is replaced with the art kanji character disappearing.

The interesting thing I've noticed about the art beating is in Training Mode. When you have the speed set to 1x 1/2x or 1/4x, it's a normal beat. However, in 1.5x & 2/3x speed, it's beating much faster. I wonder why. . .
═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Personally I can't really get into a theory that Shulk's physics were revolved around the Monado arts in this kind of way. I just go by frame data & move on from there. Found here, it takes 6 frames to cycle past an art & 46 frames for an art selected to activate. Shulk Short Hop & Full Hop air time found here shows that SH = 39 frames & FH = 60 frames. So if I were to try cycling to an art while trying to immediately input a Short Hop jumpsquat & not fastfall frame perfectly, it would almost work but not quite which means you need a smidge of fastfall at the last moment IF you didn't hit anything.

The biggest question to your theory of MAB is that you have a lot of things applied to Shulk's physics but not to when Shulk flinches from taking hits or dealing hits. Dealing knockback or taking knockback including hitstun taken, hitlag from moves, or multi-hits tamper with the Monado art's activation & perhaps the MAB process. So by this, Shulk's MAB physics is basically about not getting hit. But once you get hit, it's completely different.

EDIT: ArtAtk Ahhhh please! D: Don't disprove your video!

 

[Monadom]

This is something revolutionizing I'm seeing here, to be honest. I really appreciate this! Though the concept boggles me a bit... oh well.

EDIT: I should have mentioned before, I really admire your ability to b-reverse/wavebounce with Shulk's Monado Arts!

 

[ArtAtk]

It has a neat research behind it Artatk. I like the concept of it, but I think that there's more than 3 beats so-to-speak. I could be totally wrong here just throwing that out there.
When you cycle to an art, you see that the kanji character is lit up the moment it's cycled to. Then, you see that the kanji fades & then lights up again followed by the art activating after it's lit. Going by this, the art activation would mean that it's happening when said art's kanji character would be fading again, making it 4 beats in one cycle process.

Think of it from this perspective now. An art you cycled to & selected activating, now watching an art that would be on cooldown. When the art on cooldown is cycled to & selected, the art's beating stops the moment it vanishes, followed by the art visually seen behind Shulk on the screen fades away. The 4th beat that would be there to be the activation indicator flashes, but since it's an art on cooldown the flash activation indicator is replaced with the art kanji character disappearing.

The interesting thing I've noticed about the art beating is in Training Mode. When you have the speed set to 1x 1/2x or 1/4x, it's a normal beat. However, in 1.5x & 2/3x speed, it's beating much faster. I wonder why. . .
═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Personally I can't really get into a theory that Shulk's physics were revolved around the Monado arts in this kind of way. I just go by frame data & move on from there. Found here, it takes 6 frames to cycle past an art & 46 frames for an art selected to activate. Shulk Short Hop & Full Hop air time found here shows that SH = 39 frames & FH = 60 frames. So if I were to try cycling to an art while trying to immediately input a Short Hop jumpsquat & not fastfall frame perfectly, it would almost work but not quite which means you need a smidge of fastfall at the last moment IF you didn't hit anything.

The biggest question to your theory of MAB is that you have a lot of things applied to Shulk's physics but not to when Shulk flinches from taking hits or dealing hits. Dealing knockback or taking knockback including hitstun taken, hitlag from moves, or multi-hits tamper with the Monado art's activation & perhaps the MAB process. So by this, Shulk's MAB physics is basically about not getting hit. But once you get hit, it's completely different.

EDIT: ArtAtk Ahhhh please! D: Don't disprove your video!

Thanks for the reply Masonomace!

I believe you're right that we should be referencing frame data to evaluate the purported Monado Art Beat or MAB; just based on the fact that 46 is only divisible by 46, 23, 2, & 1 leads me to believe that there is no reasonably possible integer multiple of MAB that can fit in an art activation

*************************How I found the frame duration of the "Monado Art Beat"************************************

Looking at 1/4 speed (15 fps) in training mode and using a metronome at 1 Hz or 60 bpm (15 frames per beat) and then 3 Hz or 240 bpm (5 frames per beat) it's clear that the MAB, as I've defined it, is really closer to ~10 frames long meaning an entire MALLC activation of 46 frames (which is 1 frame longer than 3 seconds at 15 fps) won't line up exactly with an integer value of MAB. To verify this, I controlled the CPU Shulk with a second GC controller to MAB in time with the 46 frame art activation cycle of my non-CPU Shulk (1st GC controller), but this was really just for my own catharsis as the frame data itself is pretty conclusive and undeniable.

I think I got really incorrectly caught on to the idea of a 3 MAB duration from the roughly three strides (which might mean there are 15 frames per stride!) of Shulk's running animation that seems to almost exactly line up with art activation. In fact, I think my eyes were being tricked by a slight after image of the MAB lens-flare which lead me to believe it was closer to 15 frames long, Hence the roughly 3 MAB per art activation which I initially proposed.

***********************Regarding my quasi-consistent methods for B-reversing/Wavebouncing*****************

Around the 1:07 mark in my video I show off B-rev/WB from MAB + fullhop, which now makes sense given that the Monado Art Beat is only 10 frames long. No wonder I was able to be so consistent!

• ~10 frames MAB
• 5 frame jump squat
• 30 frame of airtime to reach apex of full hop
• ~= 45 frames, just 1 frame under the 46 required for art activation

Around the 1:28 mark in my video, also my method for B-rev/WB from MAB + crouch + short hop seems finicky at best:

• ~10 frames MAB
  
• ? frames of teabag (stand-->crouch-->stand), my best guess is 15 frames
• 39/2 = 19.5 or ~ 20 frames
• ~= ~45 frames, just 1 frame under the 46 required for art activation

However, I guess I'm not so consistent with my B-rev/WB from double jump because there is no longer a jump squat involved (I usually just started dash-dancing my control stick approximately around the time the art is supposed to activate to WB/B-rev, but at the expense of not knowing which direction I'll be facing after the fact due to the Russian-roulette style Wavebounce/B-reverse):

• ~10 frames MAB
  
• 30 frames of airtime to reach apex of double jump hop, assuming its just like full hop
  
• ~= 40 frames, a whole 6 frames less than the 46 required for art activation

************************************Regarding My Thoughts on MALLC**************************************

I admit shield/hit stun would throw a wrench into the timing as well. which is why I believe fast-falled variations of MALLC should be avoided in general for near-frame perfect MALLC.

By the way, I think MALLC from shorthop non-fastfall is meant to be possible but it has a 1 frame window: (Setting jump to the z-button, I use a pinching gesture to hit the b-button then immediately the z-button)

• frames 1 Press [Special], art activates on frame 46
• frames 2-6 are jump squat (5 frames) since you can't press [special] during jump squat
• frames 7-45 are the SH airtime (39 frames of airtime)
• frames 46 land on the same frame the art activates and immediately MALLC

Now, if you anticipate not whiffing your aerial (i.e. you are about to either encounter a shield, going into shield-stun, or successfully hit you opponent, going into hit-stun) you can always compensate by fast-falling!
However if you are already fast-falling as part of the MALLC timing, there is no way to compensate for shield/hit stun. Therefore, I think any MALLC that involves fast-falling during the descent before putting out an aerial will be susceptible to shield/hit stun messing up the MALLC, meaning non fast-falled approaches which can be corrected with appropriate fast-fall upon shield/hit stun will ultimately be the safer option for MALLC in general.

 

[FOcast]

However if you are already fast-falling as part of the MALLC timing, there is no way to compensate for shield/hit stun. Therefore, I think any MALLC that involves fast-falling during the descent before putting out an aerial will be susceptible to shield/hit stun messing up the MALLC, meaning non fast-falled approaches which can be corrected with appropriate fast-fall upon shield/hit stun will ultimately be the safer option for MALLC in general.

This is a concept I've been thinking about lately as well. I am often inclined to use MALLC as a landing option when trying to get back to neutral. A weakness of consistently landing with MALLC'd aerials seems to be that if you aim for a timing that gives you advantage after hitting a shield, and you instead whiff, you are landing considerably earlier (and therefore suffering lag for longer) before your art activation. Has anyone labbed on how many frames this difference actually is? When you hit a shield, how many more frames do you spend in the air?

 

[erico9001]

This is a concept I've been thinking about lately as well. I am often inclined to use MALLC as a landing option when trying to get back to neutral. A weakness of consistently landing with MALLC'd aerials seems to be that if you aim for a timing that gives you advantage after hitting a shield, and you instead whiff, you are landing considerably earlier (and therefore suffering lag for longer) before your art activation. Has anyone labbed on how many frames this difference actually is? When you hit a shield, how many more frames do you spend in the air?

This is a flaw I've realized with my original video on MALLC methods - it's all for on hit. It actually does make a huge difference if they shield it. If they shield, the hitlag you experience is more similar to if you didn't hit anything at all. You CAN actually MALLC Dair and Uair both hits on shield.

You would need to slightly adjust your MALLC timing for the on-shield version - hit b a little bit sooner. I think it's something that needs to be explored in a video :3

Overall, I believe if you are MALLCing for safety rather than for combos, you should aim for the on-shield timing of the art activation rather than the on-hit version. If it hits shield, you're safe, and if they don't shield and you hit them, you don't MALLC, but they are hit away so it is still safe.

----

I'm trying to understand ArtAtk with his Art Beat post. I may be wrong, but how I am trying to understand it is you are using a certain beat made by the monado art for visual reference? I actually have no idea what this art beat is. Or is it all internal timing?

 

[WindHero]

Based on the whole shield hit thing, this makes me wonder: If you're going for the regular MALLC timing, but see after you've already committed that the foe is going to shield, could we fast fall to make up the difference? If so, that could really make a difference in making MALLC even safer.

 

[erico9001]

Based on the whole shield hit thing, this makes me wonder: If you're going for the regular MALLC timing, but see after you've already committed that the foe is going to shield, could we fast fall to make up the difference? If so, that could really make a difference in making MALLC even safer.

I see what you're thinking, but it works the opposite way. If you are going for an on hit MALLC and they shield instead - you will hit the ground too soon rather than too late. Fast falling is the opposite of what you would want to do in the situation. If it was the inverse situation, where you plan to hit a shield and see them unshield, you could fast fall if you had a quick enough reaction time.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I see what you're thinking, but it works the opposite way. If you are going for an on hit MALLC and they shield instead - you will hit the ground too soon rather than too late. Fast falling is the opposite of what you would want to do in the situation. If it was the inverse situation, where you plan to hit a shield and see them unshield, you could fast fall if you had a quick enough reaction time.

Some people are saying that MALLC isn't that useful. I find it kind of weird, as MALLC seems like a pillar of Shulk's Metagame. Why do you think this is? I find MARC to be rather useful, but not nearly as much as MABC or MALLC.

 

[ArtAtk]

I'm trying to understand ArtAtk with his Art Beat post. I may be wrong, but how I am trying to understand it is you are using a certain beat made by the monado art for visual reference? I actually have no idea what this art beat is. Or is it all internal timing?

Yeah it's meant to be a visual reference, maybe a bit of internal timing and then perhaps muscle memory for inputting a jump right after.

TBH, I guess I originally had a a silly idea/hypothesis of the MA activation duration being divisible by three so-called "Monado Art Beats", where the MAB is the duration of the Kanji "flare", something that I didn't investigate very well. I would say it mostly stemmed from my method for semi-consistent b-reverses/wavebounces, which seemed to require me to full jump after 1 "MAB" at which point I was always able to B-rev/WB near the apex of Shulk's Jump.

Unbeknownst to me, Shulk's frame data shows his MA activation is 46 frames long, not divisible by three as I initially thought. However, I now know why I can B-reverse/Wavebounce the way I do: 10 frames MAB + 5 frames Jumpsquat + 30 frames for 1/2 full hop air-time= 45 frames, allowing for a B-rev/WB right at the apex of Shulk's full hop.

I demonstrate this method around 1:09 in my updated, now annotated video, try watching it at 0.25 speed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaEiEkcwWUU#t=1m09s

 

[ArtAtk]

In reply to someone's great (accidentally deleted) question/comment on my youtube video (paraphrasing) : "How do you [personally] utilize B-reversing/Wavebouncing correctly and continuously?"

So first I watched and understood this video on B-reversing/Wavebouncing by My Smash Corner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw1elkJwtDo

As for doing it correctly, I then figured out when to coincide my directional inputs with MA activation, the timing of which I have been facilitating with the Monado Art Beat.

As for doing it continuously, whenever I anticipate messing up the timing due to jumping too early/late, I simply cheat "Russian-Roulette" style by dash-dancing my control stick approx. during MA activation to the effect that, despite this cheating method always gaining the desired 180-momentum shift, it randomizes which direction Shulk faces afterwards--a small price to pay!

I feel as though B-rev/WBing makes opponents more wary of the space they need to keep between themselves and the reach of Shulk's Monado. People may not realize all the zany stuff B-rev/WB + Shulk's lengthy aerials can allow for. Recently, my favourite (albeit least consistent) way to end a stock is: jumping away from but facing the opponent into a Smash/Shield Art B-reverse (which causes Shulk to fall towards the opponent with his back turned towards him/her) into back air; this gives Shulk the appearance of "air-walking" and, in my experience, completely hoodwinks the opponent (who might expect a defensive option given you are switching to a new art while jumping away from them).

I personally utilize it as a mixup for MALLC, as opponents can catch onto MALLC after a while and simply Shield/Roll away. I don't typically stay in one art until it runs out as that would limit the number of B-rev/WB's I can perform in a given time; I like using them as safer/unexpected ways to approach/escape opponents, and if you really think about it, many professional Sm4sh players like Zero use B-rev/WB's all the time, utilizing Diddy's side B "monkey flip" (for increased momentum) into B-rev'd banana pull/peanut popgun, which allows him to land safely and escape juggles.

Essentially, I always try to be cycling arts when I'm not directly in a position to inflict damage, i.e. either when moving on the ground (setting up for a B-rev/WB) or at the height of Shulk's jump (setting up for a MALLC) as this will make it hard for opponents to gauge what I try to do next.

One needs to be proficient with all of Shulk's Arts at any given moment since setting up a B-rev/WB may have you simply MA cycling haphazardly, as you're seeking the next available art, though obviously you can switch from any presently disadvantageous art (e.g. Shield, Smash) to more useful arts (Jump, Speed, Buster) by buffered MA deactivation (i.e. pressing [Special] 3 times) right before end lag of an aerial/airdodge wears off. IMO, this will make it hard for your opponent to keep up with or and anticipate your next movements.

An obvious caveat may be not having the right art available when you need/want if it is still in cool down from too many consecutive B-rev/WB's, so I feel it still requires concentrated forethought about which arts Shulk can afford to be using to gain an advantage in a given situation, i.e. much like how Robin as a tactician must be wary not to exhaust all of his/her tomes.

 

[Y2Kay]

Good news:I have my first tourney to day (wohooo)

Bad news: First round I play the best shulk in Memphis

Halp me not get slaughtered please. (I play greninja)

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Good news:I have my first tourney to day (wohooo)

Bad news: First round I play the best shulk in Memphis

Halp me not get slaughtered please. (I play greninja)

A few quick tips:

If Shulk is in buster and he's spacing well, a good amount of his attacks are safe on shield, so keep that in mind.

Shulk's Airslash can't usually sweetspot until the second swing, making it possible for Hydro Pump to gimp him. The threat of this option might force him to recover high, where you can go for anti-airs.

Shulk has no projectile while Water Shuriken is a good harassment tool. Use it to fluster the Shulk into doing something unsafe. (Of which many of his moves are on whiff.) If he's as good as you say though he'll be very patient and maybe try to use speed to rush down your cooldown.

I'm not super knowledgeable on Greninja so I hope this sort of helps. And if you've already played the match...sorry. Also if you knew to do all this stuff already...sorry.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANYWAYS something kinda cool. I decided to try and check out the safety of our buster attacks. No exact frames or anything. Just seeing how early opponents could act compared to us. Well what's kinda cool is that the strong hit of UAir is really close to positive on shield. The bad news of course is that landing strong hit Uair on a grounded opponent is a freaking hassle, but it is something to keep in mind and I'm sure it'd be beneficial on platform attacks in some way. Could maybe frame trap a Back Slash? Just kind of a cool thing.

 

[Y2Kay]

A few quick tips:

If Shulk is in buster and he's spacing well, a good amount of his attacks are safe on shield, so keep that in mind.

Shulk's Airslash can't usually sweetspot until the second swing, making it possible for Hydro Pump to gimp him. The threat of this option might force him to recover high, where you can go for anti-airs.

Shulk has no projectile while Water Shuriken is a good harassment tool. Use it to fluster the Shulk into doing something unsafe. (Of which many of his moves are on whiff.) If he's as good as you say though he'll be very patient and maybe try to use speed to rush down your cooldown.

I'm not super knowledgeable on Greninja so I hope this sort of helps. And if you've already played the match...sorry. Also if you knew to do all this stuff already...sorry.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANYWAYS something kinda cool. I decided to try and check out the safety of our buster attacks. No exact frames or anything. Just seeing how early opponents could act compared to us. Well what's kinda cool is that the strong hit of UAir is really close to positive on shield. The bad news of course is that landing strong hit Uair on a grounded opponent is a freaking hassle, but it is something to keep in mind and I'm sure it'd be beneficial on platform attacks in some way. Could maybe frame trap a Back Slash? Just kind of a cool thing.

Too late got bodied

 

[DarkenedHalo115]

So I'm about to make a really long post regarding Nair and fair that doesn't fit well on the discord discussion.

First off,why mallc Nair?From what I heard,you can't act out of MALLC till frame 6,and Nair already is pretty safe on shield and 4 frames isn't that big of a difference.

Second off,to rising Nair or to descend nair?I often try to use rising Nair to cover airdodges and jumps and falling nair so I get shield safety,cause jabbing after that makes it seem safe.I still don't really use this move right even though it's one of shulk's best tools.

Third,rising fair or falling fair.I know of the "safer fair" aka the full hop fair and do another action in the IASA frames but you can also fair and try to land so you get the landing lag done and over with.So which is the better option and/or which option is best for some situations?

Sorry for this long post interrupting the MALLC related info but I realized that I misused some of shulk's best attacks and generally play neutral poorly.Any and all help to answer these questions are appreciated.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Unless you can get setups out of it (footstools from nair into Jump MALLC, maybe?) I don't really try to cancel Nair myself. Then again I also don't typically use aerials with the express purpose of using MALLC either. I personally just use it as a convenience of "oh my art's over/I need to switch. Time to cancel an aerial/dash."

I personally prefer descend Nair cause that's where like all of Shulk's setups come from. If you're retreating though rising Nair can make a nice wall. But if they block rising Nair early on you're stuck in it. Which is why I prefer rising Fair sometimes instead cause of its better IASA frames. It's all about the situation. Trying to cover ledge options? Rise with the aerial to take advantage of your active frames (especially true with Nair) and get that punk back off stage. Spacing on a shield? You want to be as close to the ground as possible when it hits because you gotta get out of that lag before they can get to you.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

I've been using rising nair quite a bit in my gameplay recently and I think it has hurt my neutral quite a lot. My original thought was that repeated rising nairs can put out a lot of hitboxes to stuff approaches, but really, all one has to do to combat this strategy is run up, perfect shield the front hitbox, and punish. Once Shulk commits to a rising nair, he is stuck for quite a while. The time from when nair passes its front hitbox to when Shulk recovers from nair's landing lag is ample time for punishment. Rising nair could be good when retreating, but as Plain Yogurt said, fair is generally a better option in this scenario. Rising nair's best use in my opinion is blocking projectiles such as Link's arrows. There's a full list of projectiles that get canceled by nair somewhere in these boards but I forget where it is.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I've been using rising nair quite a bit in my gameplay recently and I think it has hurt my neutral quite a lot. My original thought was that repeated rising nairs can put out a lot of hitboxes to stuff approaches, but really, all one has to do to combat this strategy is run up, perfect shield the front hitbox, and punish. Once Shulk commits to a rising nair, he is stuck for quite a while. The time from when nair passes its front hitbox to when Shulk recovers from nair's landing lag is ample time for punishment. Rising nair could be good when retreating, but as Plain Yogurt said, fair is generally a better option in this scenario. Rising nair's best use in my opinion is blocking projectiles such as Link's arrows. There's a full list of projectiles that get canceled by nair somewhere in these boards but I forget where it is.

There was a video on Reddit where a guy found out a way to use an aerial really early out of Ledge-jump. I think it would work really well with Shulk.

 

[FOcast]

There was a video on Reddit where a guy found out a way to use an aerial really early out of Ledge-jump. I think it would work really well with Shulk.

Nair can be quite good from ledge-jump because the later part of the hitbox swings around behind Shulk and can stuff punishes.

 

[Masonomace]

Hello metagame. I've been kinda inactive 'cus tournaments n stuff but I was given the double confirmation that these are Shulk's Air Times for his Short Hop & Full Hop when using Monado Jump Speed & Shield.

翔 (Monado Jump)
SH Air Time = 43 frames
FH Air Time = 68 frames

疾 (Monado Speed)
SH Air Time = 34 frames
FH Air Time = 51 frames

盾 (Monado Shield)
SH Air Time = 35 frames
FH Air Time = 52 frames

So from this, we know:

• Monado Jump can SHAD without landing lag, & SHFair & act with doublejumping or using Nair to replace Fair's landing lag
• Monado Speed can SHAD & override the landing lag with doublejump, aerial's landing lag, or a special like Back Slash
• Monado Shield can SHAD without landing lag
• Monado Jump can FHFair & autocancel. . .yay
• Whatever else you'd expect / experiment with.

Even though these are options we may have been aware of or not, it's cool that we have actual numbers now. So have at it heirs. And check out the Shulk customs thread if you want a larger scoop of info / knowledge about how we land & use the art's Air Times.
═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
EDIT: Here's some more Air Time numbers for Shulk. Including Doublejump (DJ), & Jump Art Buffered Deactivation's (JABD) Short Hop Full Hop & Doublejump Air Times:

Vanilla Shulk
DJ Air Time = 62 frames

翔 (Monado Jump)
DJ Air Time = 70 frames

JABD SH Air Time = 57 frames
JABD FH Air Time = 93 frames
JABD DJ Air Time = 97 frames
Note: JABD SH Fair can autocancel. Finally we have something that autocancels out of a Short Hop! Technical to the max though.

疾 (Monado Speed)
DJ Air Time = 53 frames

盾 (Monado Shield)
DJ Air Time = 54 frames

 

[Masonomace]

Note: I'll be adding this to the OP
Tip: If you want to know the FAF, just add +1 to the amount of total frames
So heirs. Remember when everyone told you that the Monado arts didn't affect Shulk's frame data?. . .That was a lie!

Movement Frame Data
Dash to Neutral (Including 翔 疾 盾 斬 撃 and Vanilla) | Total Frames= 33
Dash to Shield (Including 翔 疾 盾 斬 撃 and Vanilla) | Total Frames= 10


Skid (this happens when you run, but decide to reset the joystick to neutral or tap down on the joystick)
Vanilla skid | Total Frames= 24
Jump art skid | Total Frames= 24
Speed art skid | Total Frames= 28
Shield art skid | Total Frames= 14


Dash Turn to Neutral (all this is, is me turning around & resetting the joystick to neutral until the turn finishes)
Vanilla Dash Turn to Neutral | Total Frames= 35
Jump art Dash Turn to Neutral | Total Frames= 35
Speed art Dash Turn to Neutral | Total Frames= 39
Shield art Dash Turn to Neutral | Total Frames= 25


Dash Turn to Shield (all this is, is me turning around, holding the joystick the other way to start running in that direction, & then holding shield to see when you can act)
Vanilla Dash Turn to Shield | Total Frames= 34
Jump art Dash Turn to Shield | Total Frames= 34
Speed art Dash Turn to Shield | Total Frames= 35
Shield art Dash Turn to Shield | Total Frames= 35


A true Dash Turn (this is when you begin a dash turn & hold in that direction to have Shulk come to a halt asap. Then hold shield to see when you can act)
Vanilla | Total Frames=20
Jump art | Total Frames=20
Speed art | Total Frames=21
Shield art | Total Frames=21
═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Also, this too:

• Up taunt, "Now it's Shulk time!", has a FAF of 120. This means that the taunt is 119 Total Frames.
• Side taunt, "I'm really feeling it!", has a FAF of 80. This means that the taunt is 79 Total Frames.
• Down taunt, "This is the Monado's Power!", has a FAF of 90. This means that the taunt is 89 Total Frames
• A Monado art activating & appearing inside the glass center of the Monado during a taunt won't affect the frame data. You also do not acquire the intangibility from the art activation during a taunt. Just in case you didn't know

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Interesting...so while Shield kills our speed, it gives us more...control, I guess is the word? That art looks stronger than its initial perception every day.

 

[Masonomace]

Interesting...so while Shield kills our speed, it gives us more...control, I guess is the word? That art looks stronger than its initial perception every day.

Back around December of 2014, I was performing running to skid with Shield art because I saw the difference in Shulk's movement right away. This is why I've been doing this for over a year now, because in Neutral you can throw off the opponent in close quarters with Shield art. So while most of the time you want to be fairly spaced away at mid-range with Shulk, it's plausible to be doing this with Shield art in close quarters!

Also, if you're slow running, then you act even more quickly out of skid. So slow running in Shield becomes even less of a commitment.
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
More frame data:

Floor Getup: 1-22 Intangibility | FAF: 30
Floor Front Attack: 1-16 Intangibility (Hitbox active: 17-18 and 21-22) | FAF: 46
Floor Back Attack: 1-16 Intangibility (Hitbox active: 17-18 and 21-22) | FAF:46
Floor forward roll: 1-20 Intangibility | FAF: 36
Floor back roll: 1-24 Intangibility | FAF: 36

 

[-NV]

I'm making a shulk video, can I use the information in this thread?

I will cite everyone of course

 

[Masonomace]

I'm making a shulk video, can I use the information in this thread?

I will cite everyone of course

You want to use 61 pages of information for your shulk video?

Yeesh. .good luck

 

[-NV]

You want to use 61 pages of information for your shulk video?

Yeesh. .good luck

It's gonna be a long video

 

[OllieWG♪]

It's gonna be a long video

Be sure to link it when you're done, i'd like to see it.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

So lately I've been thinking about the uses of Shield against combo heavy characters. From what I've played, starting out with Shield against Sheik makes the matchup so much more bearable early percents. Forward tilt strings? Ha! A Vision! Or you can just DI down and shield. Same thing applies to Mario's up tilt skill combo. So I was thinking, if you can cycle through arts in hitstun, theoretically you could switch to Shield during ZSS's elevator combo and not die. Or better yet, switch to Smash mode and utilize the greater knockback received to more easily DI out of ZSS's up-B and then counterattack with an Air Slash. Same could apply to MK and Mario. AND BAYONETTA. The thing is, I haven't done testing with the elevator combos, as none of the players I've played recently can consistently perform them. So what do you guys think? Feasible? Or nah?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Starting in Shield against Sheik is typically a waste of time, along with any semi-mobile character with a projectile. You become the slowest character in the game, after all. It does work alright on the less speedy combo characters like Mario and Ness though (okay Mario's not SLOW but you know what I mean). It's definitely also awesome when you have a decent lead too, cause you can just sit there and they can either try to hit you and they do jack for damage, or they wait out Shield which is another 16 seconds closer to timeout.

I BELIEVE testing has been done and with quick enough reflexes both ZSS and MK's ladder combos can be mitigated through switching to shield. Probably helps against Bayo too, especially since her extravagant combos take a while.

Speaking of Shield art, when Masonomace posted those reduced skid frames something I started taking a look at "run dancing" back and forth with it. It's a little iffy because Shield reduces the mobility, but I think it might have some decent dash dance-esque mindgame potential since he can stop so fast and use dash attack for burst movement when you're ready to strike.

 

[Scarhi]

Confirming that switching to Shield art while getting ladder comboed by MK or ZSS can help avoiding the kill. Being in Shield or Smash beforehand also works against MK (since he won't be able to combo you at all). His ladder combo's percentage range is from about 20 to 50% so keep that in mind to be prepared to react.

I find low percentages Shield art to be useful against Mario but not so much against Sheik because she will win the neutral 90% of the time against Shield Shulk, has options to adapt her combos to Shield art and can camp you with needles. Low percentages Smash art probably works better against her.
Mario can still Uthrow combo you in Shield art but you'll take less damage and the use of Shield art won't extend his combos like it does with Sheik's.

 

[-NV]

Be sure to link it when you're done, i'd like to see it.

its going to be a very high quality video. im good at editing, and im confident in my skills to produce results.
hopefully it gets featured or something, it'd be a crime if it didn't.

I'll make sure I link it when i'm done