Thirty Days of Life - Competitive Discussion Thread

[Jane]

because i fuggin hate it? Haha. Why learn it when i can just ban it always

Not the greatest mentality ever but hey, it works.

Also im thinking of picking up dedede.. next chance i have to play some bawrls i'll getting to know him a little better.

 

[Sky Pirate]

because i fuggin hate it? Haha. Why learn it when i can just ban it always

If for no other reason, you shouldn't always ban it because some characters aren't even good on that stage and would never counterpick it in the first place.

Not the greatest mentality ever but hey, it works.

It could always be better!

 

[Jane]

which characters are those? (not asking sarcastically, haha)

 

[Sky Pirate]

As far as I know, Bowser, Link, Samus, Ice Climbers, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Ike, Ness, and Sonic wouldn't CP Frigate either because the stage is really bad for them or they have better stages to CP.

Yoshi, R.O.B., Kirby, Dedede, Lucario, G&W, Snake, and M.K. seem more likely to pick the stage than most characters.

The rest I'm not too certain of.

If anyone else can confirm these or wants to argue against them, I'd be most grateful.

 

[Jane]

definitely been taken there by a falco and a marth. bowser, link, and sonic i don't much care where they take me. ice climbers yeah, i would probably ban FD. the rest, i have no idea where they would want to take me so i would probably end up banning frigate just out of not knowing what would be the better ban choice.

 

[Tin Man]

Now I got time to get my 2 cents in

You'll know when the Monkey flip is coming, Just powershield it, I dont have problems with diddy in bracket, Mainly falcos. I get put out by falco more than anything actually.

Monkey flip can also grab you tho

you don't feel like talking about it?

Nah yo, don't wanna leak any info that I shouldn't be.

Assuming they do it the same way as the 1.0 version, I really don't understand what information a bunch of meaningless numbers could possibly provide.
Regardless of what we decide that the match-up is in terms of numbers, we need to know WHY people think these numbers are what they are.

I'm sure it'll spark discussion in here anyway, but it's a bit irritating to be fed filtered data.

Well if it helps, we got outsiders on the panel. It now consists of me, Dabuz, Fino & Anuar. Logic wasn't really that into it, Rich Brown never posted in it or talked to anyone, and Denti helped but he wasn't actually on the panel.

Will there be write ups, I'm not too sure. Likely no. There would be info for the MU's we changed however. But I could do a complete Bowser write up (mostly what we talked about on AIM ).

What stage do you guys find people ban against you the most, and what do you find people counterpicking the most?

Most ppl ban Castle Siege vs me the most. As for what's CP'd vs me the most, depends on the MU really.

Also, I'm starting to think Brinstar is a really good stage for us, people really do forget how good our uair is there and the things on the side extend the hitbox like crazy, so it's out forever. People really do some dumb approaches there as well.

I can't think of a single character be it Bo3 or Bo5 that I would take to Brinstar

One more question, who do you have trouble keeping stage control against?

ICs

Sorry, BSL's talk of Uairing through Brinstar made me think of some gimmicks and such that I've been seeing/thinking about lately.
Might be nice for discussion.

Listing:
- Ledgedrop -> Jump-> Whistle -> Nair ledge tactic. First saw it with IcyLight, but he got it from a japanese player who used it onstage. Most commonly applied nowadays as a method for Olimars to get grounded.

- dabuz's Usmash -> Dsmash thing (I wanted a video to accompany this, but youtube is being *****y)

- Ledgedrop -> Jump -> Fair -> DI back at the apex of the jump -> land on edge -> Fsmash. You can also just barely tap the ground at the ledge while going off to renew your second jump and go back in with a Bair or whistle bounce back and retether the ledge.

I do the 1st option a lot. I know Asa does the 3rd option quite a bit, but in a different way. He'd instant tether, then jump and fair, and he wouldn't land and try and Fsmash. Prolly cause he never got the chance (Olimar dittoes). Expand on this 2nd option plz .

Deeper discussion:
- We never really use ledge plucking in places we could naturally do so, like on Delfino (when dropping from small cliffs like the ones found on the shine gate and the transformations with the shallow water), Halberd (transition between the flying platform and the main one), Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, and PS1.
When we stop a run at the edge, we can cancel the skid and just fall off with a B move, so why not choose when you go off with a pluck?

- Dunno if other Olimars do this, but I like to whistle bounce back immediately when going off a ledge. Really helps with getting under semi-permeables like the flying platform on Halberd quickly (when it transitions, for example) or Brinstar. Pikmin don't always follow, so it's difficult to scrooge like this, but it is good for a surprise Uair without having to jump out to half-tarzan.

Meh, Olimar is pretty vulnerable while in the mid air pluck animation don't you think. I think this would be good for plucking 1 Pikmin when your on a platform trying to get down while the opponent is close, otherwise if you need to fill up on 6 Pikmin, I'd say just pluck em on the spot, or dash cancel pluck them.

As far as I know, Bowser, Link, Samus, Ice Climbers, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Ike, Ness, and Sonic wouldn't CP Frigate either because the stage is really bad for them or they have better stages to CP.

Yoshi, R.O.B., Kirby, Dedede, Lucario, G&W, Snake, and M.K. seem more likely to pick the stage than most characters.

The rest I'm not too certain of.

If anyone else can confirm these or wants to argue against them, I'd be most grateful.

Bowser, Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sonic I can see taking us to frigate, but they all have better CP's against us.

 

[Asa]

The usmash-dsmash thing ( i think) is like

you go in for usmash, and if it gets blocked, go for a dsmash cuz they should be pushed far away enough that a grab or other punish will whiff and they'll get hit

 

[IcyLight]

Sorry, BSL's talk of Uairing through Brinstar made me think of some gimmicks and such that I've been seeing/thinking about lately.

Hello! Figured i'd comment on this....

Did you know you can drop off the right side of rainbow cruise, uair through the BOTTOM of the ship into the cubby, and still recover back to the right side with a full pikmin chain?



Also, another thing with whistle bouncing. I first saw rich do this against m2k i think when the mk was spawning. He jumped, whistle bounced, double jump whistle bounced like 4 more times and landed. Very technical whistle bouncing and hard to do simultaneously, but a complete mind **** for a spawning opponent so you don't get hit when they are invulnerable.

 

[Tin Man]

Hello! Figured i'd comment on this....

Did you know you can drop off the right side of rainbow cruise, uair through the BOTTOM of the ship into the cubby, and still recover back to the right side with a full pikmin chain?

Cool, works with any colour?

Also, another thing with whistle bouncing. I first saw rich do this against m2k i think when the mk was spawning. He jumped, whistle bounced, double jump whistle bounced like 4 more times and landed. Very technical whistle bouncing and hard to do simultaneously, but a complete mind **** for a spawning opponent so you don't get hit when they are invulnerable.

Yup, been doing this since I saw him do that ^_^

 

[Sky Pirate]

Well if it helps, we got outsiders on the panel. It now consists of me, Dabuz, Fino & Anuar. Logic wasn't really that into it, Rich Brown never posted in it or talked to anyone, and Denti helped but he wasn't actually on the panel.

Was this before or after Denti got banned?
If it was before, I have no idea why he wouldn't be on the panel (or in the BBR) with all he's doing down here.

I do the 1st option a lot. I know Asa does the 3rd option quite a bit, but in a different way. He'd instant tether, then jump and fair, and he wouldn't land and try and Fsmash. Prolly cause he never got the chance (Olimar dittoes). Expand on this 2nd option plz .

That's... a bit different from what I'm talking about.
You can see what i'm talking about on the second option by watching dabuz's concentrate videos.

Meh, Olimar is pretty vulnerable while in the mid air pluck animation don't you think. I think this would be good for plucking 1 Pikmin when your on a platform trying to get down while the opponent is close, otherwise if you need to fill up on 6 Pikmin, I'd say just pluck em on the spot, or dash cancel pluck them.

1. If you're ledge plucking properly, why would you be entering the midair pluck animation?
2. I'm not talking about plucking 6 pikmin with ledge plucking. It's just something a little something extra to benefit from. If you're dropping from a ledge anyway, there's no reason to not ledge pluck.

Bowser, Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sonic I can see taking us to frigate, but they all have better CP's against us.

Hence the "or they have better stages to CP".

 

[Dabuz]

upsmash -> Dsmash is when you upsmash the opponent, and a charge a dsmash KNOWING they will do a defensive action such as airdodging or landing away and rolling into you. I can't beleive i stopped doing this, but out of dthrow, it is an amazing mind**** for 40%


Also, ledgepluck i find useful to overwhlem the opponent when you hit them away, and want to chase them, throw pikmin, and get pikmin of your on, on a stage like BF where you can use platforms to chase, it becomes really confusing to see olimar jumping on platforms, pulling pikmin, and recklessly trying to continue a juggle

Denti is in the panel, he may be banned, but he was part of one of the skype discussions and i believe Fino got his MU numbers

None of the characters tin man listed should want to take us to Frigate, we get the advantage on that stage against those characters

BTW, against monkey flip, simple but hard thing to get good at. Up-B the flip on reaction.

 

[Exceladon City]

Frigate isn't a bad CP for Sonic against Olimar...until you see a million yellows everywhere. Then, it becomes kinda problematic.

 

[Tin Man]

We really get the advantage over those character on frigate o_O. Weird but ok.

Was this before or after Denti got banned?
If it was before, I have no idea why he wouldn't be on the panel (or in the BBR) with all he's doing down here.

Denti got banned lol?

That's... a bit different from what I'm talking about.
You can see what i'm talking about on the second option by watching dabuz's concentrate videos.

Yeah I said that it was different lol. I understand more about Dabuz's mind game now. Thanks for pointing it out .

1. If you're ledge plucking properly, why would you be entering the midair pluck animation?
2. I'm not talking about plucking 6 pikmin with ledge plucking. It's just something a little something extra to benefit from. If you're dropping from a ledge anyway, there's no reason to not ledge pluck.

1. My bad yo, was referring to something else.
2. Aiight I hear you.

 

[-Coco-]

Hello! Figured i'd comment on this....

Did you know you can drop off the right side of rainbow cruise, uair through the BOTTOM of the ship into the cubby, and still recover back to the right side with a full pikmin chain?



Also, another thing with whistle bouncing. I first saw rich do this against m2k i think when the mk was spawning. He jumped, whistle bounced, double jump whistle bounced like 4 more times and landed. Very technical whistle bouncing and hard to do simultaneously, but a complete mind **** for a spawning opponent so you don't get hit when they are invulnerable.

Link to match pl0x

 

[Jane]

^he did it in game 2 vs m2k at tourney play, i think.

 

[Asa]

he's done that to anti too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHHizQ5JC6A#t=1m

 

[Dnyce]

more of a comfort thing at this point
i'd rather not use it against mk, but i'm fine using it against most other characters

I always thought that it was because it's the smallest legal stage, and one of our most effective game-plans is throw pikmin until you can fsmash or grab. Going with said game-plan is that we're very limited from a positioning standpoint (see 3rd quote).

Regardless of what we decide that the match-up is in terms of numbers, we need to know WHY people think these numbers are what they are.

Any questions? I can help

i should start CPing people to brinstar. just realized how AWESOME THAT STage is. oops caps .

^THIS!!
YESSSSSS

So long as mk is banned at the tournament, I fully endorse CP'ing people to Brinstar.

What do you do when you get pressured to the edge of the stage?

Either find a way to knock your opponent away for find a way back to the middle. With larger stages we have a lot more options for the former. Take FD, for instance. Assume the opponent is on the far right side of the stage - if you position yourself roughly around the left tip of the middle diamond, you can SH-double pikmin toss safely until your opponent gets close to the right tip of the middle diamond. From there you should either only throw one pikmin during your SH or start throwing grounded - ideally, you want to stay grounded when you are just outside your opponent's fastest/safest/longest approach option (so take this part with a grain of salt and apply common sense ). Once you transition into when you want to start grounded tossing, you should begin to consider how you're going to knock the opponent away (so you can rinse and repeat). At this point though, you have 1/4 of the stage left to figure out how to do that (assuming you don't get it immediately and need to retreat a bit). Meanwhile, if you applied that spacing to a stage like smashville, we're practically already at the edge by the time we need to start thinking how to get the opponent away, so there's a lot less room for error. It's a bit harder to camp effectively on such a small stage =/

That's mostly my general theory on camping anyway, ideally... you shouldn't get pressured to the ledge often. You want to cling on to as much central stage control as possible so when you opponent IS putting up a solid pressure game, you have room to adjust etc.

The usmash-dsmash thing ( i think) is like

you go in for usmash, and if it gets blocked, go for a dsmash cuz they should be pushed far away enough that a grab or other punish will whiff and they'll get hit

It's not very reliable imo. Used to be

Did you know you can drop off the right side of rainbow cruise, uair through the BOTTOM of the ship into the cubby, and still recover back to the right side with a full pikmin chain?



Also, another thing with whistle bouncing. I first saw rich do this against m2k i think when the mk was spawning. He jumped, whistle bounced, double jump whistle bounced like 4 more times and landed. Very technical whistle bouncing and hard to do simultaneously, but a complete mind **** for a spawning opponent so you don't get hit when they are invulnerable.

Wow, that's legit. It sounds REALLY punishable though, lol.

And yeah, I noticed rich do that too in his vids. Immediately stole the idea, works awesome.

BTW, against monkey flip, simple but hard thing to get good at. Up-B the flip on reaction.

There's also no hitbox on his ***, so you can sometimes run under him and upsmash. The hitbox on his foot will win every time though. This works best when diddy is already in the air, if he's doing it grounded (or from the ledge), it's probably a good idea to try pivot grabbing it.

 

[Asa]

Apart from FD, smashville isn't significantly smaller than the other starters -.-

like 2 olimar dtilts lol

 

[Sky Pirate]

Any questions? I can help

HYESZ, after they release the list.

 

[IcyLight]

BTW, against monkey flip, simple but hard thing to get good at. Up-B the flip on reaction.

you can just usmash oos after his foot hits your shield :D

 

[Sky Pirate]

Okay, so... We have a Falco in Austin now.

I've only played Falco once or twice so far, so I had a lot of trouble dealing with Laser -> SideB at first.
Rich's tip about facing away and grabbing really helped though, because it seemed that I would make him uncomfortable at a certain range by running at him and turning around and shielding. He'd have to either jump away, go through me with something I could usually punish, or continue camping and risk taking a yellow Fsmash or Purple SideB.
Utilt was also incredibly difficult to land on his SideB, whether on reaction or when predicting the move. It doesn't always clank.
People have been saying Jab is dumb, but I didn't realize just HOW dumb it was. :<

1. I'll be checking the video thread here in a bit, but does anyone know of any videos that REALLY show how the match-up should be played?

2. Does anyone have any tips for baiting based on habits Falco players tend to have?

3. Why is this match-up so freaking annoying?

 

[Zigsta]

Just pick up Bowser.

 

[Jane]

its annoying because falco has so many wonderful tools.

what i've found to help is to STAY GROUNDED. jumping when you are both in a neutral position will get you punished fast. also, watch his habits after the downthrow; its really easy to just follow him and regrab/shieldgrab. if they start jumping after the dthrow a lot, i usually just predict the landing and grab again, because i hate risking the upair.

 

[Asa]

If they tend to jab u when u get close u could get in and usmash the jab oos

On the ground id look for rollspotdodge habits tho

 

[Llumys]

I know there's a thread for this, but I don't feel like bumping it.

How high do you think Olimar would be on a MK-banned tier list? I think it'll look something like this...

1. Falco
2. Diddy Kong
3. Marth
4. Snake
5. Olimar

 

[Jane]

its honestly so hard for me to decide. i feel like falco, diddy, marth, and snake are all on the same tier.

none of these are in a specific order

S Tier
Falco
Diddy
Marth
Snake

A Tier
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Wario

B Tier
Lucario
Pikachu
Dedede

 

[Dnyce]

Apart from FD, smashville isn't significantly smaller than the other starters -.-

like 2 olimar dtilts lol

SV is at least 1-2 roll distances shorter than every other stage. I wanna say ~50-60 IGU... which is considerable distance if you ask me.

you can just usmash oos after his foot hits your shield :D

I thought only bad diddy's threw the foot out early. If you shield, monkey flip is still a command grab. ;o
Also, I was under the impression that yellows and whites would die if you tried this, anyone know for sure?

 

[Sync.]

For Falco you stay at mid range and camp. When he's close roll away or jab. Up smash OoS doesn't work if he jabs twice. Don't camp far away, he can reflector without penalty. DO NOT get grabbed and camp platforms. You just need to bait and punish and look for grounded habits like Asa said.

 

[Dnyce]

Up smash OoS doesn't work if he jabs twice.

**Usmash oos ONLY works if he jabs twice.

Don't camp far away, he can reflector without penalty.

???????

DO NOT get grabbed and camp platforms.

Camping platforms is a pretty good way to not get grabbed... lol.

 

[Asa]

According to tinman (and we did test it while he was in bc), you can usmash oos after the first or second jab

 

[Sky Pirate]

Curious, has anyone tried an Oli/Falco team?
If so, is it any good at all or it it just team "we get gimped"?

 

[Dnyce]

According to tinman (and we did test it while he was in bc), you can usmash oos after the first or second jab

I'll ask him about the data to see how he tested it. I was positive Falco could jab2 before Olimar could upsmash and only worked if Falco was doing jab timing to be able to jab cancel, but I could be wrong.


EDIT: u guys no test in frame advance n say sometime rite or not y?

baka

 

[Sky Pirate]

As far as I can tell, we can Upsmash him after he strikes our shield if he also hits our pikmin with Jab1.
I'm not completely sure of the spacing, but his jab hitbox seems to miss the pikmin on rare occasions.

[collapse=Falco Jab frame crap]Frame 2-5: First hitbox
Frame 7: Earliest input for Jab2
Frame 10: Earliest Jab2 can come out (with multijab follow-up)
Frame 17: FAF (Earliest input for Jab2 without multijab)
Frame 19: Jab2 comes out (without multijab follow-up)

It seems to go through one extra frame of the Jab1 animation before executing the Jab2 animation if Jab2 is entered before frame 17, so entering the Jab on frame 16 will still result in Jab2 coming out on frame 19 (in this case, it would still have the multijab follow-up).[/collapse]
This all assumes that Jab is completely fresh.

If he hits the pikmin:
Frame 2: Jab strikes shield
Frames 3-7: Hitlag
Frame 9: First frame jump and Usmash can be input (Jab strikes pikmin, pikmin with 5+ health will rocket)
Frame 10-14: Falco experiences hitlag for striking pikmin
Frame 16: Usmash hits Falco, theoretically earliest Falco can input Jab2 after successful pikmin strike (with multijab follow-up)
Frame 19: Earliest Jab2 could come out (with multijab follow-up)

If he misses the pikmin:
Frame 2: Jab strikes shield
Frames 3-7: Hitlag
Frame 9: First frame jump and Usmash can be input
Frame 12: Earliest Falco can Jab2 (with multijab follow-up)
Frame 15: Earliest Jab2 will hit (with multijab follow-up)
Frame 16: Usmash hits Falco

I'm assuming frames 9-10 would be the only frames to Usmash OoS and still rocket since there are five frames of hitlag on striking the shield and the Jab hitbox is only out frames 2-5.

Jab hitbox progression:
Frame 2-Jab (shield hit)
Frame 3-Jab (Frame 8, shield stun)
Frame 4-Jab (Frame 9, jump/Usmash input possible)
Frame 5-Jab (Frame 10, jump/Usmash input possible)
Frame 6-Jab hitbox gone

Obviously his next jab is going to hit us if the struck pikmin dies before the Usmash is executed.

Please correct me if any of this is incorrect.

 

[Dnyce]

If Peach gets a beam sword, let her keep it. If we get the beam sword, DO NOT THROW IT AWAY. Use jab and fsmash when facing peach, use dash attack the opp direction (hitbox out in our blind-spot), never use tilt (range is only slightly better than jab and frame data is near fsmash).

//random advice

 

[N_o_M]

Curious, has anyone tried an Oli/Falco team?
If so, is it any good at all or it it just team "we get gimped"?

Rich and Larry have a couple videos, they are pretty good.

Also if you can bait the side b on the stage try and predict where he is going to land and charge a down smash.

 

[pesticide]

Curious, has anyone tried an Oli/Falco team?
If so, is it any good at all or it it just team "we get gimped"?

DR3W and i randomly tried it in a doubles tourney a few weeks ago. Didn't work out too well lol. But also we had no previous practice with each other before the tourney and idt he plays much doubles

 

[Dnyce]

Stage Length (longest to shortest):
Castle Siege (2nd) - 840

Pokemon Stadium - 175.5
Final Destination - 170
Castle Siege (3rd) - 165
Lylat Cruise - 160
Battlefield - 156

Delfino - 141
Yoshi's Island - 140
Smashville - 139
Castle Siege (1st) - 131

Frigate - 93




Happy Camping

 

[Sky Pirate]

GASP!
...yeah, **** Frigate. XD

This is really good info, but one thing is bothering me. Your length for FD is 3+ less than the one given in the BBR stage analysis project.

Is there a reason for this this difference?

 

[Dnyce]

GASP!
...yeah, **** Frigate. XD

This is really good info, but one thing is bothering me. Your length for FD is 3+ less than the one given in the BBR stage analysis project.

Is there a reason for this this difference?

I saw this

Spoiler

Which is where I got the idea to post it here. *** got LAZY

Camera Center (x,y) (0, 0)
Top-left Camera Limit (x,y) (-180, 130)
Bottom-right Camera Limit (x,y) (180, -60)
Top-left Blastzone (x,y) (-240, 180)
Bottom-right Blastzone (x,y) (240, -115)
Respawn Platform (x,y) (0, 50)
Main Platform Height (y) (.64)
Main Platform Width (-x, x) (-86.876, 86.876)

Main Platform to top blastzone: ~180
Center of stage to side blastzone: 240
Edge of stage to side blastzone: ~155

The picture you have shows the correct value, I'm editing my post, L.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think tbh most stages aren't really intriscly bad for olimar, even brinstar which generally caters to aerial based chararcters is pretty good for olimar in a lot of match ups.

I'm not really sure where I'm going to cp olimar.

I think lylat might be a better olimar stage than YI or CS though