The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated

[Browny]

everyone should do that (the sh uair lol...)

 

[Kinzer]

Hey could I get some feedback on my match agaist Olimar?

I think you used too much spin attacks.

Or rather, you didn't use ASC enough. It's a saving grace in this MU, could there be any reason you didn't do it as much as I think you could've?

That's what I saw mostly. If you want, we can go deeper (inb4that'swhatshesaif)

Quoted for sheer brilliance. You guys should all follow the example of Kid, who follows the example of ME.

+50 Steak points for you my friend.

Can I just cut out the piece of Steak middle-man and credit you instead...?

like, there I was lol'ing in some thread about "spring > dair > footstool (to KO as well as recover), lol noone will ever do that it'll never work"

and this guy uses it twice within like 1minute of his video which includes a billion other crazy trixxies without even blinking

I'd never seen a double-footstool actually used ever (I mean footstool > footstool > recover)

and his tech'ing skillz are the best I've seen from someone not called Ally

Edit: also note how ready he is with the jab-locks as well as ways to follow them up

and the glide-tossing crazy tricks and his ability to dodge/use Snake's nonsense

and his spacing; on Bairs and Uairs, which is part of how he gets away with his spring tricks madness

and his meatriding, oh wai--

Understand that it is a combo video, meaning it's meant to make something look more amazing than it may actually seem.

Also understand that I am not going to discredit anybody. I'll admit, the video even impressed me. However, I think if you take a good look at the video, you realize that there are a couple of things some opponents could've done to prevent their fate.

Yea, I watched this video... Honestly, it kind of makes me want to stop playing Brawl. I know I will never be as good as that at reading, teching and spacing haha.

This Sonic is incredible and executes everything perfectly that I wish I could execute. So why bother playing when I can just watch him do it?

Also, from what I have seen no other Sonic on these boards is even close to this guy other than maybe Espy. I know this is just a combo vid, but still, even if this was against computers it would still be impressive.

Ah, please tell me you aren't serious about this...

Okay good. Some posts have already gone over this.

But don't let somebody else who appears to be better than you stop you from trying to become better.

You know, being alone is terrible. Building Sonic's metagame is a team-effort; We're all in this thing together, doing our part to help... even if it just by playing Sonic. It's one thing for one person to bring out potential in a character, but it's another thing for multiple people to do amazing things themselves.

Kuaudo has the right idea. I'm glad he does. I think without Tails, I would've given up a long time ago... but he gives me a purpose to stick around... I help him bring out his best... meh, now I'm just being corny and going on on a rambling rant. My last sentence is weird... blech... bleh...

 

[4nace]

@Kinzer

Haha yea, that post was slightly sarcastic as I said to Kuraudo, but not completely however.

I watched some of his videos and his on-stage game atleast is exactly how I would want to play my Sonic every game. While watching his videos, it was the first time I was like, that is exactly what I would do, but I know I wouldn't be able to pull it off heh.

Don't get me wrong I will continue to play Sonic and learn new things. I really need to get a video up soon of some of the stuff I've been working on. One of my main "techs" ive been playing with he actually does exactly how I would at 8:53 where he Side-B jump cancels inside the enemies shield and actually gets him to unshield and then follows to punish. Its pretty smexy.


I guess what's different for me about this video than others is it just makes me realize how I don't really have the time to get as good as I would want.

His Techs, Up air spacing, pivots, jab locks, etc all require a pretty good amount of time and practice. And then theres the simple matter of fact that this guy is just better at reading then I am haha.

All in all its an amazing video and I hope he brings Sonic's game even further. However, I don't think his spin game is as good as some of the US smashers, but every other aspect of his game is top-notch! Great work by him.

 

[infomon]

However, I don't think his spin game is as good as some of the US smashers, but every other aspect of his game is top-notch! Great work by him.

Actually...... I just rewatched the video. I think that's what's so amazing about it.
HE DOESN'T SPINDASH.

There's no use of ASC in the entire video.
His primary reason for spindash is spinshot, which he uses a lot.
Secondary: SDR from far away when the opponent is in lag, usually proceeded by an SDJ into.... something unique per the situation.
Tertiary: Side-B to hit with the hop part, into a footstool or jump-cancel item-catch :o

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. My only question, is why is that kid not OBLITERATING tournaments all over the place?

2. the only thing I didnt like were his jab lock follow ups, I felt like he could have done mroe with them than just a down tilt to an escapable up air or w/e

3. just so everyone knows, that part at 2:55, I did that 6 months ago, at APEX. lol

4. also at 4:49, ADHD taught me that anybody that can catch and throw an item that fast is on adderall... lol =P

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLvbbd7ze_Q Act 1. hes very good but has some bad habits. and is hyper agressive.

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G6bBl2XDqU&feature=related act 2. His friends are pretty good too.
also watch the end.
WOMBOO COMBOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Camalange]

i just started watching that video.

i can't finish it right now, but i like what i saw so far. he thinks outside the box-obair.

 

[da K.I.D.]

for what its worth, the down throw to running pivot grab back throw... ive been doing since 08. I even posted about it once or twice....

 

[Jim Morrison]

Major respect for this kid.

 

[Camalange]

Finally got around to watching that vid.

Dayum.

The spring uair stuff got real repetitive, but wow. I'm incredibly impressed by how risky, yet rewarding his offstage gameplay is, as well as how advanced his item/glide toss gameplay is. His technical skill, timing, and just overall advanced understanding of Sonic's capabilities is simply mind blowing. I also liked his use of nair.

The jab lock stuff was kinda basic, and ideas we had before, but some of this stuff man...future status. Spring Dair/Footstool Wall Jump shenanigans are just awesome. I definitely need to rethink the way I play this character and what I consider to be his "limits"

 

[B.A.M.]

Loved the combo video. Glad to see the use of HA vs Snake off stage and HA in general. Stuff works man. As well as the dthrows to pivot grab back throw. I remember you talking about that awhile ago KID, i thought all of us Sonics have been on that. Spring L-cancel and stalling love; ive been using that ton since talking to tenki about it awhile back. I think this hilarious that all these sonics are amazed. Why? not because i believe im all amazing, but the fact that all these gimmicks and techniques are things we all know. Dont you guys experiment in friendlies. This guy is freakin awesome. No doubt. the fact is i try this stuff all the time ESPECIALLY when im playing actually solid players. Sonic is seriously the sickest character in brawl in my opinion. We can follow up more than any character in the game. We all should always be working on our follow ups. moreso than any character. It suxs because sometimes i watch Kojin's videos or some other sonics. And they just stop following up. for no reason at all. DDP and DD is all good, dont get me wrong. But that stuff, unless u got true pivoting for tilt follow ups down and DDP smashes, we should just chase and follow up. Why the heck stop the follow up and go in a neutral position? especially we're sonic. Its once we get a hit we can destroy, because we can actually space, follow up, AND use our billion gimmicks ALL during the time they are flying in knockback.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm exhausted so I'm not putting them in the collection tonight, but here's the videos of me vs. Razer 1-3.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JUJ210#p/u

 

[Kuraudo]

Dang, Espy.

 

[Sagen du Smash]

Wow Espy that set blew my mind. Your are so legit as Sonic!

 

[Browny]

obviously very pro

however from a critique point of view I think you could have done considerably better by paying attention to the combination of mines on the ground. Too many times I was thinking 'dont approach him, hes just gonna nade drop pivot grab and throw you into the nearby mine' and it happened I know being aware of his traps, and approaching + avoiding them is something altogether, it just seemed too easy for him to grab you exactly where he wanted and was rarely threatened by his own mines timing out.

 

[Espy Rose]

To be fair, I was completely aware of that, and was trying to play into his mines to get him to be hit into them with jabs. I think I pulled that off in one match, I don't remember.

Meh, what happened happened. In the end it's the results that matter.

I could've used more tilts though.

Oh, and for Kojin: I tried the nair several times in friendlies and a handful of matches.

Nair is amazing.

=====

By the way, my quick thought on that Sonic's combo vids:

More or less, what I think about this Sonic has been brought up by KID. This player is, visually, incredibly entertaining to watch as he ***** and takes games, but most of the content of those videos didn't really seem to be of anything new. In fact, the only thing I saw in those videos that I've never seen or tried in tournament before were the uair to Lucas' PK Thunder (Which I should've known by now), and that gimmick with Falco's sideB toward the beginning of the video.

Oh, and the voices and small animations during the combo video were just embarrassing to watch.

=====

Updated. I added in all the recent videos and combo videos into the archive.

 

[da K.I.D.]

razer didnt do enough holding of his A button.

 

[Espy Rose]

razer didnt do enough holding of his A button.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The spin mindgames are really good against snake and his manuverability can really throw snake off, but it kinda all goes down the toilet as soon as the snake remembers that he has an A button.

Thats the reason i can never beat the snake in my area, if razer had mashed A instead of shielding your spindashes, it would have been a different story, is what I unfortunately believe.

Also, you should never have anything less than perfect DI for snakes f and as such, you should rarely ever die to it, especially at 130. its 2 hits and takes forever to hit you away

Snake can also up tilt you out of your ASC on reaction, which also would have tilted the scales in his favor.

I also didnt really like the spring drop camping on the mountain stage. snake can up b, the cypher will eat the spring and then up air you while your dairing back to the ground.

 

[Espy Rose]

The spin mindgames are really good against snake and his manuverability can really throw snake off, but it kinda all goes down the toilet as soon as the snake remembers that he has an A button.

Thats the reason i can never beat the snake in my area, if razer had mashed A instead of shielding your spindashes, it would have been a different story, is what I unfortunately believe.

Bair beats jab and I believe uair outdoes it, so A isn't as overpowered as you're making it seem. Do keep in mind that you can change your trajectory after the ASC into a shield for a retreat or possible shield grab. If a Snake were to just hold A every time they heard or saw a spin coming, just remember how easy it is to slow down the movement from the spin and into an uair, cancel, or jump cancel.

They're not going to jab every time either. That'd make them predictable and punishable by a dashing shield grab.

Also, you should never have anything less than perfect DI for snakes f and as such, you should rarely ever die to it, especially at 130. its 2 hits and takes forever to hit you away

Agreed. I just panicked and didn't DI properly after being hit. I honestly expected an utilt at that point.

Snake can also up tilt you out of your ASC on reaction, which also would have tilted the scales in his favor.

I disagree with the "on reaction" bit, but lack the reasoning to explain.

I also didnt really like the spring drop camping on the mountain stage. snake can up b, the cypher will eat the spring and then up air you while your dairing back to the ground.

True. At the same time, I knew he wouldn't do it.
Besides, I have a large chunk of air time to see whether or not he does upB from spring drop camping.

You make it seem as though every Sonic dairs right after spring. It's not that hard to drop a spring and retreat instead. Given the time you spend going up then falling back down to ground level as he rises from the cypher, it's pretty **** easy to get away from him, especially given his terrible agility in the air.

 

[Shugo-Chan]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Espyyyyyyyyy.

 

[Boxob.]

And a delayed 'good ****, bro' to Espy.

 

[Trent]

Kick arse Espy.

 

[Kinzer]

*Insert Espy Steakridin' here.*

 

[MalcolmM]

I enjoyed that you camped him. Who cares about what mistakes you made...you camped him...which is such a big improvement nothing else matters.

<3 Espizzle

 

[da K.I.D.]

ugh, shut up malcolm. u so dum

espy, theres always room to improve, you know this.

hopefully you guys will be almost as impressed with my vids when they come out...

 

[Espy Rose]

I know there's room for improvement, KID.
If there wasn't, I wouldn't have lost against Fliphop or Trela.

Thanks anyways though.

Of course I look forward to watching your sets as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

me and you need to play against diddys more, Ive been thinking alot recently, and i think sonic has what it takes to create definite winning matchups with some of the better characters, diddy and rob specifically.

 

[Espy Rose]

I think it's just the lack of match up experience. I've always felt that ROB/Diddy Kong vs. Sonic was always 55:45, or something close to 5:5.

We aren't necessarily disadvantaged by anything game breaking in either match up, but there are advantages that both Diddy and ROB have on Sonic (nanerz obviously for Diddy, while ROB lives forever and has large range and projectiles).

Hell, if Diddy Kong didn't have the bananas, he'd be terrible vs. Sonic.

 

[~TBS~]

yeah, good stuff espy. always nice to see your improvements. o=

@The combo vid
I'm just speechless at it. Sure, we might have known it could be done, but its still too good.

btw, i've been experimenting with somethings, (you guys prolly already know about it cause you are all too smart) and hopefully it'll get rid of this "rehearsed Sonic that keeps running into things" thing. Im talking different follow-ups, more defense, and most of all, not running INTO things all the time. I'll still run I'm feeling that i'll have more luck with this one instead of doing the same thing over and over. I wont tell anyone about it until im sure this thing will work.

and it better work. >_<

 

[da K.I.D.]

There was this once diddy player that I think was from around texas, and he used to get mad at the diddy boards, when they said that they went even with/beat meta. the justifacation for this idea was the fact that mk couldnt deal with the nanners. but there was always one player that said that mk ***** diddy because of the fact that if there was ever an mk player that handled the nanners as well as the diddy he was fighting against, the diddy would get unequivically wrecked....

I dont think you can apply this concept to other characters, because of certain playstyles and what not. snake and ddd come to mind because they are fat and slow, and their actual throwing and catching of nanners seems slow, so theres no way those characters will be able to control the items at the level that diddy does.

However sonic, I really think can play the nanner game just as well as diddy, possibly even better, but its hard because the only way to get that good with nanners is to play as diddy, which doesnt help because diddy and sonic have completely different movesets and abilities, so learning follow ups and traps with diddy, doesnt really translate. the only other option is to play with a really good diddy player, constantly. which also rarely happens. but if I ever get that chance, i plan to use it to the full, cus i think sonic is one of the few characters that can get on diddys level and beat him at his own game.

 

[Magik0722]

Here are some games of me vs espy last saturday in case any of yall wanted to see them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3j-cTEiQS0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGqoGQU55VY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biNPXHu1S5E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-vOOi7JsZM

 

[Espy Rose]

There was this once diddy player that I think was from around texas, and he used to get mad at the diddy boards, when they said that they went even with/beat meta. the justifacation for this idea was the fact that mk couldnt deal with the nanners. but there was always one player that said that mk ***** diddy because of the fact that if there was ever an mk player that handled the nanners as well as the diddy he was fighting against, the diddy would get unequivically wrecked....

I dont think you can apply this concept to other characters, because of certain playstyles and what not. snake and ddd come to mind because they are fat and slow, and their actual throwing and catching of nanners seems slow, so theres no way those characters will be able to control the items at the level that diddy does.

However sonic, I really think can play the nanner game just as well as diddy, possibly even better, but its hard because the only way to get that good with nanners is to play as diddy, which doesnt help because diddy and sonic have completely different movesets and abilities, so learning follow ups and traps with diddy, doesnt really translate. the only other option is to play with a really good diddy player, constantly. which also rarely happens. but if I ever get that chance, i plan to use it to the full, cus i think sonic is one of the few characters that can get on diddys level and beat him at his own game.

That's somewhat how I feel about the situation. The problem is just the lack of Diddys in my general area. Not to mention the two that are in Texas happen to always go to the ends of the tournament, so it's hard to squeeze in some friendlies with them to get a better idea on the match up.

In all honesty, I want more Lucario, Diddy, and Meta Knight practice. I don't have enough of any of those.

@Magik: I completely forgot those were recorded. Good stuff.

 

[da K.I.D.]

why do you have the japanese voices on your wii?


theres always room for more Mk experience. lol. i need practice vs a lot of characters.

 

[Magik0722]

the person who recorded them does

 

[WedginatorX]

The same Falco from last time I posted came to me saying he got better. So I offered to have another offline set with him. Kthxenjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcEgQslTJY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntygxgzNyDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI9SoRErytw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNxKVzu_JwU

 

[infomon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biNPXHu1S5E
oh my goodness

Magik, you are a man, for coming in here and posting this.

 

[MalcolmM]

How could u feel disadvantadged vs Diddy? He only has a frame 3 out of shield option with a banana in his hand that covers all options around him and you dont have a frame 3 move in ur arsenal aside from jab.

Edit thanks to Merby: Frame 8 OOS option. Fastest Autocancel Aerial with landing is 9.

 

[Espy Rose]

Malcolm needs to l2elaborate.

If we jab, they just shield it > banana > whatever.

If we shield, they just banana > whatever.

They have less options than us, but more when compared to other characters.
And most of their options are viable vs. Sonic because of the banana.

 

[JayBee]

Espy vs Razor match 1:

the primary conditioning that we need to give to our opponents, especially to grenade spamming ones, is to always expect the side step. Espy's grabs were constantly sidestepped, and what he needs to understand is that Razor's tactics were not that tricky. I'll even go out and say that most of his actions were robotic on the ground. Grenade>sidestep> jab> grab/tilt is so common amung good snakes its sickening, and you can prevent its usefulness simply by running at them like normal with the mindset that they are already going for the sidestep/grab. those options are the most common option out of a snake holding a grenade. what I'd do, is run at them, expecting at first a side step, and delay the grab i wanted to do immediately, anticipating the sidestep, then grab afterwards. you'd only have to wait a split second to verify if they will do it, then decide for yourself whether to grab, or not.

Try running, and screech stopping more, the action itself is tricky to opponents expecting sonic to run all the way to them, and if for example he was anticipating a rush down, and tried to counter with a pivot grab, then the random stop outside of that range will not only give you a chance to counter afterwards, but make it harder to determine how to counter you when all they have are baited spotdodges, blocked ftilts that can be punished with IDA, and grabs. btw, this snake grabs a lot. A LOT.

I liked the patience you showed at teh beginning, he was trying hard to make you approach immediately, and even tho it didn't work out in teh end (mostly due to the stage) that is something you should work on and use from time to time, especially against significantly slower characters. Please ban BF against snake. the platforms dont help you at all when he has explosions everywhere, and you can get suffocated spacing wise.

match 2:

LOL nice counterpick. the isdr evened the ground control from snake as went through the explosions and caught him off guard. The thing that showed the most promise, is when you had the stock lead and you went to the side of Yoshis, charged your side B, and JUST SAT THERE CHARGING. that is brilliant. if anything, the snake is forced to think of something, and when you consider your aggressive style, it works, because at anytime, you could have gone back to being super aggro again. Notice that when he caught on, he did all he could to stay with you with Dacus to prevent the side B charge, and at one point set a Dsmash at the edge. this limits the effectiveness of the Dsmash to control the field (its usually best to set them more inward the stage) and dacus is punishable as hell to sonic. This reveals snakes lack of safe approach options on sonic without a grenade, and isdr negates teh usefulness of nade cooking to an extent. in short, ISDR gave you the edge to gain the ground advantage IMO. the way you spammed it was lovely.

He did not feel safe on the ground, and had to run at you. grenade cooking was almost useless on the ground too. and "turtleing" with isdr on the edge put even more pressure on the snake to make the first move.

match 3:
ASC was used well in this set, even with the nade spam. i'd been a bit more patient since you had more room in round 1. at this point, he did a lot of dash attacks, which you should have baited and punished more, some you did , some you did not. you did a good job manuvering around his projectile spam, which was key to this match. he missed a lot of free damage because of it. btw, he wanted you to come at him in that windmill at teh end. he went there and basically waited in his shield. that event almost cost you, as he got a lot of free damage. please dont do that again against snake.

i find it ironic that his heavy use of nades cost him in the end. that's what you get, i guess.


+
good movement to avoid grenades
solid reading and spindash kill setups

-
lack of consistant punishment of Snakes DACUS
telegraphed grabs too often; led to sidestepps punishment
sometime ran into situations that were heavily NOT in your favor.

good stuff espy. you'll do even better next time. you better believe Razor's probably looking at why he lost to you too...

 

[Kinzer]

Unless you go by a striking system, I would much rather ban stages like Lylat/Halberd/GGs (if this is even legal)/Brinstar/etc. against Snake before I would consider getting rid of Battlefield.

Lylat isn't too bad, it's basically FD with lower platforms that don't disrupt spacing too much, if at all. Big issue here is that explosives get concealed by the dark background, and so does Snake to some extent. Other than that, I'll admit banning Lylat is personal preference.

Halberd has a notoriously low ceiling. So easily can you die to U-Tilts, I'm not sure whether I'd get rid of this or Brinstar. Brinstar has a lot of uneven ground that I find hard to maneuver around, and again the low ceiling does nothing to help Sonic's case. Not to mention it brings the camouflage problem to a whole new level (but still might not be so bad as long as you pay more attention).

Meh, I won't go on a long rant, I'm just saying Battlefield may not be the first thing that you should ban against Snake, but I could be wrong. Throwing my $0.02 out there pretty much. Maybe I can learn something new.