Guide The way-too-long-for-anybody-to-actually-read Ness Guide!

[toasty]

exactly, sage, no knockback or stun. AAA has both. it's also much faster than you might think.

 

[Ether]

Would A-A -> grab work? Or even A->grab? It's just your standard jab to grab, but I don't know if Ness' grab range lets him pull it off. If he can do it, the payoff's better than A-A-A or repeated downtilts.

Here's another idea. Perform one or two jabs, then jump behind them and bair them in the back of the head. If they're shielding, they might go for the shield grab and get hit by the bair once they come out of their shield.

Or A->A->spaced fair->bat

You'll have to DI away to space your fair so just the tip of the lightning hits. If they shield it, don't go for the bat. If they get hit by the fair, give 'em the bat. But now I'm thinking like a Marth player. =P

 

[indie_dave]

If they get hit by the fair, give 'em the bat. But now I'm thinking like a Marth player. =P

lulz

still, marths win.
sooooo if we wanna see nesses win, gotta see nesses unashamed to play dix0rz.

like marth players.

:shrugs:

edit: i like dtilt to ftilt/AAA. it's a nice way to c-c-c-c-combo breaker

 

[Ether]

dtilt to ftilt/AAA sounds interesting. The dtilt is so fast that Ness should be able to follow up with more than just more dtilts. I like the way everyone is thinking.

 

[toasty]

In all seriousness, I love having you on here Ether...a non-Ness player giving input on what may or may not work...esp since you know so much about spacing for just about every move [just don't become a future M2K...it would suck to see you waste away like that and become a robot...well, I mean, as long as you still show at Otis's =D hahaha] that and you've played enough [but still nowhere nearly enough!!!] against my Ness and AngryLobster's to know a lil about what you're saying...so yeah, thanks...keep this mess going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as for dtilt-->ftilt/AAA...sounds good, and Ether, while you're right about it being so fast that he should be able to follow it up with more than just more dtilts, ftilt and AAA are just about the ONLY things fast enough to follow it up with...sadness I'll have to try the single/double A--->grab though...I don't think it'll work. I don't know if the first hits have enough stun for someone to let you grab them...and not to mention the crappy range =/

guess we'll see, eh?

 

[Ether]

In all seriousness, I love having you on here Ether...a non-Ness player giving input on what may or may not work...esp since you know so much about spacing for just about every move [just don't become a future M2K...it would suck to see you waste away like that and become a robot...well, I mean, as long as you still show at Otis's =D hahaha] that and you've played enough [but still nowhere nearly enough!!!] against my Ness and AngryLobster's to know a lil about what you're saying...so yeah, thanks...keep this mess going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as for dtilt-->ftilt/AAA...sounds good, and Ether, while you're right about it being so fast that he should be able to follow it up with more than just more dtilts, ftilt and AAA are just about the ONLY things fast enough to follow it up with...sadness I'll have to try the single/double A--->grab though...I don't think it'll work. I don't know if the first hits have enough stun for someone to let you grab them...and not to mention the crappy range =/

guess we'll see, eh?

A non-Ness player? Me? Shhh...
>.>
<.<

It's funny you mentioned Mew2King. Actually, you hit the nail right on the head. I HAVE been wasting away all this week devoting all my time into sheer spacing, frames, and hitboxes. I've studied Mew2King's site, and he's my inspiration. O-NO and Lee came over the other day and recorded every single one of our matches. You should see the results.

Back on topic. If it's true that following up the downtilt and natural combo is too hard, then at least use the moment as an opportunity to waveshield away. (I know people call it shield dash, but waveshield sounds sexier.) The instinct of someone who's pummeled with downtilts is to wait a moment and then dash attack/grab right back in. I'm sure everyone sees the obvious opportunities for punishment, like, say, a bat, but what if you charge up that up smash and.... BAM! YYG.

Downtilt spam -> retreating YYG. Even if they start predicting it and they hit you after the upsmash, you'll be holding up on the control stick, and it's easy to shift your thumb to a diagonally up-right or up-left position to maximize your DI. Or simply crouch cancel their dash attack into more downtilts for another YYG setup. I know pulling out the YYG can be hard, but it's going to take something like this to move Ness up the tier list.

 

[indie_dave]

honestly i don't have that hard of a time hitting fsmash bat after dtilt combo, even when ppl expect it. like toasty brought up, just gotta space right -- if they're farther i'll usually bat; closer i'll ftilt. i don't like dtilt-->AAA if nme is ccing. at low %s, nmes hit me out of AAA when ccing :'(

i'm intrigued by the dtilt-->retreating yyg. do you mean to wavedash backwards, upsmash? care to elaborate further?

 

[Ether]

You got it. The idea is to get some breathing room with downtilt, WD back, and charge an upsmash that they'll run into if they take the bait. Obviously make sure you have some retreating room behind you. Anyone wanna try this technique out? I can't do the YYG. Someone give it a shot.

 

[toasty]

Anyone wanna try this technique out? I can't do the YYG. Someone give it a shot.

I WILL FIND SOME TIME!!! If anything I'll MAKE some time for this...and man am I excited to see what you guys did...yet another VHS Tape of Greatness?
good call on that baiting combo though =D

 

[indie_dave]

You got it. The idea is to get some breathing room with downtilt, WD back, and charge an upsmash that they'll run into if they take the bait. Obviously make sure you have some retreating room behind you. Anyone wanna try this technique out? I can't do the YYG. Someone give it a shot.

z0mg "you got mindgamesd SON" haha now i rly wanna do this ^_^

 

[thesage]

Some Ness player needs to make a new combo vid. It's needs to show off Ness' DjC ability even MOAR!

 

[Ademisk]

All this discussion of Ness combos gets me all crazy interested in the game, and completely overwhelmed at the same time...why couldn't I start learning this stuff like the same time last year....

Well if I can put my 2 cents in, if I actually could L-cancel fast enough to get the AAA in I'd do AAA and then try to dash retreat to bait the enemy into running into a DjC bair. Or would a dash be too slow?

 

[toasty]

Well if I can put my 2 cents in, if I actually could L-cancel fast enough to get the AAA in I'd do AAA and then try to dash retreat to bait the enemy into running into a DjC bair. Or would a dash be too slow?

classic Ness move =D my favorite baiting-for-a-bair trick with Ness [and it's sooo bizarre how I've been doing this even before I learned anything like WDing or SHing or L-cancel with the same group of people [like over a year ago] and it STILL works a sufficient percent of the time]:
if they're nearby and you're near an edge and they seem like they're on the approach [it's especially useful when the oppenent has an aggressive streak], run off the edge, double jump back on, bair...happiness =D It really does work wayyyy more often than it ever should!

about your idea though, it doesn't even have to be a really fast DJC-bair at all, it could be a swing-jump style DJC where you're dashing away from them, jump forward, swing the second jump back immediately with a bair.

another favorite thing to do [although I'll admit, I really only try this with Pikachu, haven't had a chance to apply it as Ness] is horribly elementary in concept but it really works. People learn to wavedash and maybe even waveland...and then they wonder, after learning to do it all the time, when the hell can I actually use it? finally, they start doing the classic "run forward, wavedash backward, fsmash" with just about any character. With Ness, you don't have it so easy unfortunately.
so what you can try is a full/short hop toward them and just before you get into aerial attack range, you waveland back, and fsmash them while they try and grab out of shield. ::be cautious about trying this against Sheik or Marth as their ability to grab you out of the air is...well, broken.::
or of course, if you're good at spacing yourself.......YYG!

obviously: do not try this against Link or YLink...instead, just jump in front of them and spot dodge the hookshot that'll undoubtedly be coming at you

 

[Ademisk]

Actually, the dash in their face, wavedash backwards F-smash is a classic Ness mindgame, oh how I love that bat. I like your idea about the waveland, but I can't pull it off yet. Maybe even do a shorthop, and then try to do a DjC waveland so they think that the noise from the Dj is your F-air. Is a DjC waveland reasonable, or am I just imagining crap?

 

[indie_dave]

ask simna, he really likes djc wavelanding. as unorthodox as my controller layout for ness compared to other characters already is, i have to do even different things to wave-djc. normally i use XX to djc and YR to wavedash, but in this case i YXL to wavedjc. it looks trippy, almost as cool as delaying mewtwo's wavedash so he disappears. however, i have NO idea nor wherewithal to incorporate in gameplay.

 

[toasty]

haha, yeah I forgot the dash forward, WD backward, fsmash...hell that's a class SSBM move! just about every character can get away with that [cept Bowser probably haha]...and no I like the idea of using DJC-waveland...I should try that some more...esp against air-grab-happy Marths and Sheiks

and indie_dave
"however, i have NO idea nor wherewithal to incorporate in gameplay."
and yet you manage to incorporate the word "wherewithal" in an actual sentence. nice. haha

 

[indie_dave]

thx thx ^_^
i really like what chudat does with his ICs: space a backwards wavedash to fsmash BAM
so i've been doing something similar with fox lately: dash forward, dashdance back, wavedash backwards at nme, then f/usmash.
even though ness isn't as fast dash dancing, and lacks wavedash distance ics have, he is still highly effective at both, so i'm gonna start doing it with ness too. potential YYG setup????

 

[Ademisk]

Well, I just thought Short hop wouldn't be a good of enough fakeout, but with the DjC you're really testing both their audial and visual response skills.

 

[Wave⁂]

I added a new vid to the Omnibus: Simna(YLink) vs. ender(Kirby)FD
Really funny. I think Simna was trying to DjC.

EDIT: i added about Five Kajillion neww videos to the Omnibus, courtesy of Ademisk. Wooooo!!!

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

lol thats not a ness vid!

and i cant tell u if i was trying to DjC...i cant remember back that far^_^

 

[Wave⁂]

But since the first person i think of when i hear "ness" is Simna.... why not?

 

[toasty]

hah I think it'd be better for your argument if you say the first thing you think of when you hear Simna is Ness...good vid either way though. Simna, who else do you use?

 

[Wave⁂]

Roy... or at least used to be Roy.

 

[OnYourMark]

yeah, and annoying used to main dr. mario...

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i DON'T use Samus, ICs, Mario, Luigi, Kirby, Pichu, and Peach

 

[Ademisk]

Well uhm, neither do I, so there.

 

[toasty]

dang...that's like ChuDat's roster of characters [what I mean is, the names you didn't mention is like the size of the roster he's pretty handy with, not to mention the few that he's godly with...stupid ICs] I'm just starting to try and build a bigger roster of people I'm proficient with, which I guess comes more easily the more comfortable you are with the game's advanced techs and I guess...the "better" you get at the game. Is your Zelda any good? If so, could you direct me to any tips/threads that might actually help? I haven't had [and won't have, for some time] a chance to play against humans using her so I have no idea what stuff in the Zelda forums may actually help since so many people are giving input and it's impossible to distinguish the practical from the impractical...so I didn't even bother.

By the by, that Zelda question was directed at ANYONE (not just Simna) who may be good with her

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

hmmm...i dont know of good zelda topics, but.... i can give u some general tips like "bait&switch" and your downsmash is very fast and bair is slightly faster than fair and learn to use upB properly and downB can be useful. I can also direct you to players who could probably give you better tips from what i hear altho Kawn(K Balls) and Mow(UmbreonMow) may be hard to find^_^ but hey DRGN and RyokoYaksa both have better Zeldas than me...try asking them^_^

 

[toasty]

thanks man.......bait&switch? what are you talking about specifically? lmao "downB can be useful" I actually ONLY switch to Sheik if Zelda's stuck just below the ledge due too overly-aggressive/greedy edgeguarding and I'm trying to make it a habit to switch to Sheik to upB around and onto the ledge...trying to make it as much of a habit as possible before I actually get a chance to play against real people since I doubt I'll even THINK to use it quickly enough in a real battle.
as for aiming her upB, that's the one thing I've actually had a chance to practice [esp since I have an LCD TV that lags like crazy, so that's one of the few things I can effectively practice...don't want lag-based timing habits when it comes to combos/lcancel timing/etc ]

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

bait&switch is zelda's strongest game(and also one of her weaknesses)

the basics of it consist of baiting the opponent into an offensive while u are in a retreat or defensive position then using proper spacing to switch instantly from defense to offense using zelda's fast and superiorly ranged aerials

im pretty sure this is the reason why Zelda uses more retreating fairs than any other character

 

[toasty]

bait&switch is zelda's strongest game(and also one of her weaknesses)

the basics of it consist of baiting the opponent into an offensive while u are in a retreat or defensive position then using proper spacing to switch instantly from defense to offense using zelda's fast and superiorly ranged aerials

im pretty sure this is the reason why Zelda uses more retreating fairs than any other character

oh okay, that's what I figured, didn't want to just assume in case there was something I was missing out on...but yeah that's actually why I was interested in using Zelda, Ness does his fair share of baiting for DJ-aerials...but obviously: Zelda's aerials hurt infinitely more...and you don't need the double jump to do it, hell it's even sweeter at lower % to do the aerial and then double jump toward them for ANOTHER stiletto to the face =D man...I have crazy goals for my characters...like Ness? Spike Jacket --> PKflash [I bout died when I finally landed it on someone, and they're good too!!!...I just need to master the Star Jacket, my timing is off on the DJCuair, so I just do a regular jump and do the uair right as I reach the ground]
Zelda: dair chain on meteor-canceling space animals =D dunno if it would work...but yeah I can see it now, it's like the reverse of Peach's parasol shenanigans against FFers
G&W: frying-pan "shine" spike
Fox: drill-shine-infinite [that one isn't that "crazy" as in far-fetched...just takes a crazy amount of speed/skill/practice...I'm almost there though, at least I can waveshine pretty consistently]

*looks at the clock* OH SNAP new site up in 17 minutes =D!!!
for those who have been lucky enough to escape the hype:
www.smashbros.com

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Lololol Smashbros.com Failure To Launch!

 

[toasty]

Lololol Smashbros.com Failure To Launch!

LMAO I wonder how long kids pummeled the Refresh button before they gave up, and then went over to the new-site thread and bltched and moaned about it...and then somehow someone has the "inside info" that it'll be up at noon(Japan time)...hahaha...sweet, kids will be refreshing for the next 12 hours

I CAN'T WAIT FOR IT TO BE THE SAME 2 TRAILERS hahahahaha, maybe a nice background...........................okay that's a lie, I'm dying to see the new stuff.

<---guilty

 

[toasty]

Lololol Smashbros.com Failure To Launch!

LMAO I wonder how long kids pummeled the Refresh button before they gave up, and then went over to the new-site thread and bltched and moaned about it...and then somehow someone has the "inside info" that it'll be up at noon(Japan time)...hahaha...sweet, kids will be refreshing for the next 12 hours

I CAN'T WAIT FOR IT TO BE THE SAME 2 TRAILERS hahahahaha, maybe a nice background...........................okay that's a lie, I'm dying to see the new stuff.

<---guilty

EDIT: anyone notice for the last 45 minutes or so, the boards became REALLLLY slow? I think it's because it got flooded whent he site wasn't up and running hahahaha...btw, I know this isn't a real edit, I just hit "submit reply" and it was taking forever so it made me think to hit "stop" so I could add this


EDITX2: Simna, remove that first post?

 

[thesage]

I hate Nintendo...

 

[indie_dave]

Lololol Smashbros.com Failure To Launch!

omg this is so funny
<-- highly entertained

ries:



sumaburani nesu ga nakattari = akiramenasai/giivu appu :'''''''''''''''''''''''''(

edit: HEROES FINALE TONIGHTZ0RS 2 :DED:

 

[Wave⁂]

There just doing that for publicity.... maybe. *refreshes* dammit! *refreshes*

 

[Ademisk]

We waited allthis time, we can wait another day.

 

[thesage]

813 users online today. Wow...

 

[Ademisk]

The only two threads being posted on in the Ness specific section have bother degenerated to complainig about the Brawl site. That's awesome.