Guide The way-too-long-for-anybody-to-actually-read Ness Guide!

Wave⁂

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
11,871
#1
The Ness Compendium of Knowledge and Statistics has been renamed. More interesting now... yeah.

This guide now has a theme song! Beat that, The Greatest Falcon Thread! Ness-ownage!

TABLE OF CONTENTS
Post #1: Frame stats for every move. Descriptions, too.
Post #2-3: Earthbound360's huge guide to PK Thunder. [Ctrl+F] Search for {{PKT}} or click here and here for page 2.
Post #4: OnYourMark's yo yo glitch guide. [Ctrl+F] Search for {{YYG}} or click here.
Post #9: Video collection. [Ctrl+F] Search for {{VID}} or click here.
Post #10: Character matchups. [Ctrl+F] Search for {{CHMU}} or click here.


YAY! Pre-credits!!! So you might actually read them.
annoying1359
Earthbound360
thesage (twice)
OnYourMark
Simna ibn Sind
_clinton
Seanson
the people in Earthbound360's credits
Ademisk

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS IS FROM SMASHWIKI:
SmashWiki's movestats for Ness.
I then added SuperDoodleMan's frame data.

=====

Seanson has created an amazing hitbox system--
The thread
Direct link there
With this, you can see ANY attack at various speeds, with hitboxes and collision bubbles visible. Yay. I took those images, then made some GIFs. Thanks, Seanson!

Pros

* Best character to play (statistically) in Low Tier Tournaments.
* Long recovery
* Quick attacks
* Can double jump cancel

Yes DjC is magic.

Just to make it clear this is not about actual tactics with DjC. This is more about the buttons you actually press to DjC. Leave your comments about a certain button combination and I'll update them into the first post.

X+X+A:

Y+Y+A:

X+Y+A:

It's a little hard to pick up, but the rewards are worth it. It allows you to keep your momentum and your areals come out pretty fast too. <3 <3 <3 ~thesage

X + X + Z:

Y + Y + Z:

Y + X + Z:

Can anybody actually do this? ~thesage

Up on Control Stick + Y + A:

Up on Control Stick + X + A:

Up on Control Stick + Y + Z:

I used to do this, but then I realized that it ruins my controller and my index finger hurts after pressing the Z button so much. It's easy to pick up, but it's hard to do fast djc areals except for djc uairs. I don't recommend it. ~thesage

Up on Control Stick + X + Z:


Lol, that's a lot of different ways.


* Effective at combo'ing
* Very good aerial attacks
* Good KO moves
* Average weight
* Small target
* Throws can KO and combo
* Powerful forward smash
* Very versatile projectile
* Largest sweetspot range
* Forward smash (if timed correctly) can deflect projectiles

Cons

* Slow without advanced techniques
* Highly abusable recovery
* Extremely low grab range (and slow)
* Slow special moves

Move Set Overview

Please note that some of these attack descriptions are incomplete.

A-Attacks

* A: Hook 1-3%
Total: 19
Hit: 3-4

Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 5 (or later)



Pretty much never just use one A. Never. Interesting fact: you can hit with your back foot during this attack.

* A (Second): Straight 1-2%
Total: 20
Hit: 4-5

Window of the Kick: 2-25
Kick starts: 7 (or later)

Little knockback, but some combo potential.

* A (Third): Kick 2-4%
Total: 30
Hit: 7-10

The plain three hit combo. If your opponent is a bit too close for comfort, use this to get them off. Very fast. Not much else to say....

* Dash A: PK Shove 2-12%
Total: 41
Hit: 8, 15, 22
IASA: 40



A very good move. One of Ness's best options for an approach. It has incredible range and is practically a projectile. Don’t go thinking that your opponent will go flying along on a scary angle like the level nine computer player does. No, a human player will only do that if they smash DI upwards as soon as the move hits. Instead, they will get juggled around for a lovely 12% damage and shot up into the air, all floaty and weird. (Quite often, they won’t be spinning at all, but simply “falling” upwards while looking around. The reason is that they are being hit while they are on the ground.)
Hit 1 has a semi-spike effect, like a weak YLink's dsmash. Hit 2 does almost nothing. Hit 3 pops hem up.

* F-Tilt: Short Kick 6-11%
Total: 34
Hit: 7-11



A nice move. Fast, useful and has a lingering hit box, nice priority and can edge guard. Can be directed by aiming at a diagonal.

This attack is more useful than is sounds because it is fast and it has low lag. It goes through many projectiles. Its deceptive priority makes the uftilt fairly useful against shffls.

* Up Tilt: Push Up 3-7%
Total: 39
Hit: 5-9
Head invincible: 5-6
IASA: 32

Very fast, has silly priority due to his invincibility, and decent range. A good weapon against space animals. Good in combos.

* D-Tilt: Squat Kick 1-3%
D Tilt

Total: 13



Possible infinite against walls, usually ends around 300%. An annoyance. Possible edgeguard, but not to replace a proper edgeguard. Using against a full shielding opponent will prevent shield grabbing because it pokes at their feet. Yay, shield stabbing!

* Forward Smash: Home Run Swing 9-32%
Total: 49
Charge frame: 10
Hit: 16-17
Reflects: 16-17



It has insane range and priority, does amazing damage if you tipper, can’t be shield grabbed because of shield stun and they are pushed away. Is used to edgeguard about 50% of the time. Use it to finish combos against fast fallers as well.
It’s not very obvious and very hard to punish, so you don’t need to worry about using it. The lag is significant, but not huge. It’s the eighth most powerful horizontal smash in the game, if you tipper. Ness's body can reflect projectiles during his 2 invul frames. Best against projectiles if you aim away from your opponent. Also, as a very cruel April Fool's Joke, Simna convinced me it can turn opponents around. :cry: :cry:

* Down Smash: Walk the Dog 3-25%
Total: 61
Charge frame: 13
Hit: 12-31
IASA: 59



Ness's worst attack, hands down. Except for extreme mindgames. (Read: for Simna only ^_^)

* Up Smash: Around the World 3-22%
Total: 49
Charge frame: 13
Hit: 12, 13 (if you charge), 14-31
IASA: 49

More on the yoyo glitch later. Or you can click here if you're impatient.

Aerial-Attacks

* Aerial Neutral A or nair: Ness Spin 4-11%
Total: 39
Hit: 5-23
IASA: 36
Auto cancel: <4 27>
Landlag: 22
Lcanceled: 11



Un-reached potential. If your opponent is at too high a damage to combo into a finisher, this is your move. Very good edgeguard. Very fast, and even faster if DjC'd.

* Aerial Forward A or fair: Flying PK Shove 1-15%
Total: 41
Hit: 8-10, 11-13, 14-16, 17-19, 20-21
IASA: 40
Auto cancel: <7 30>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9



<3 <3 <3 fair. Really good combo'r, but best if you DjC or shfflc so only the weak hit hits, so you can combo them across to stage. A neat thing about fair is that although it appear to be several hits, it is continuously hitting your opponent. One of Ness's best (and only) approaches.

* Aerial Back A or bair: PK Drop Kick 5-16%
Total: 39
Hit: 10-19
IASA: 36
Auto cancel: <9 25>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9



Finisher finisher finisher. Very good KO move DjC'd. Possible edgeguard, but not that good due to it's small range. Not much else to say. (Note the small landing lag.)

* Aerial Up A or uair: Jumping Headbutt 7-13%
Total: 45
Hit: 8-11
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <7 27>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9

One Ness's best weapon's against Space Animals, but that will be covered in character matchups. ALWAYS DjC THIS MOVE. ALWAYS. Good killer against floaties like GAW and Jiggz due to their light weight and... floatiness. Ness's best juggler. Equip star jacket by DjC'ing uair.

* Aerial Down A or dair: Meteor Kick 6-12%
Total: 59
Hit: 20-28
Auto cancel: <19 29>
Landlag: 28
Lcanceled: 14



Avoid using this in actual combat; there is way too much lag. It is a possible combo starter if you aren't shield grabbed.
As a meteor, this kinda sucks. The long hitbox is good, but there is too much lag. Unless you you spike jacket. That looks so fricken cool.


Grab and Throws
-------------------------------------
Standing Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 8-9



This is a JC grab, or a standing one. Look at the purple. LOOK AT IT! Tiny, huh?
-------------------------------------
Running grab

Total: 40
Grab: 10-11

Never do this on purpose.
-------------------------------------

* Pummel: Captive Headbutt 1-3%
As a rule of thumb, do this about once for ever 15-20% damage they have, depending on whether they are struggling.

* Forward Throw: PK Throw 6-11%
Nothing special about this move... avoid it, unless edgeuarding.

* Back Throw: Reverse PK Throw 6-11%
FRICKEN AMAZING. This will kill pretty much anyone at 90%, depending on the stage, their weight and DI. If you opponent fails to sweetspot while recovering and lands behind you, turn around and bthrow.

* Up Throw: Cowboy PK Throw 5-10%
Combo starter against fastfallers, leads into a nice uair juggle. Average KO move against floaties.

* Down Throw: PK Inferno 1-8%
Dthrow does 0% to GAW, for some reason. Avoid using this, unless for mindgames.



B attacks
-------------------------------------

* B: PK Flash
Total (minimum): 109
Hit: 64-77

Total (maximum): 217
Hit: 153-166

Minimum charge same as release on
frame 45

Maximum charge same as release on
frame 134

--upon release--
Total: 65
Hit: 20-33

Landfallspeciallag: 4

That was fun to read, huh?
Never use this except:
Shield break
Missed rest ^_^
Edgeguarding
--98% of the time, edgeguarding will be the reason you use this. good if you have timing, or against predictable recoveries.
-------------------------------------

* Forward B: PK Fire
Total: 69
Comes out: 20
Projectile lasts: 20 (but on flat
ground, it hits the ground after 19)

Burning fire hits: 1-101 (several
hitboxes)

Avoid using this attack. Occasionally, it is pretty good, but without mindgames, never. Aerial PK fire will cancel all lag if landing lag is interrupted by oh-no-I'm-going-to-fall-help-me-ahh animation.

NOTE: this attack has surprisingly high priority:
Ever wonder what PK fire can do when dealing with other projectiles and some special attacks? No, well ok, but I'm going to write what it can do anyway ok sucka.:laugh:

Pilar=stops projectile and creates the 2nd part of PK fire, the Fire pillar.
Cross= both projectiles continue going (so they are still dangerous)+ PK fire is still a bolt.
Breaks= PK fire distroys the projectile and continues going in bolt form
Cancel= both of the projectiles end


Mario,Luigi, Dr. Mario, Peach, and Yoshi
Fireballs, pills, veggies, and eggs=pilar

Yoshi's Ground Pound Stars= Pilar

Go and eat your veggies if you want one they are a little hot though so be careful.

Bowser's fire breath= cross

Mewtwo
shadow ball level one to level 3=pilar
shadow ball level four to five= breaks
Disable=cross

Pichu and Pikachu
Thunder Jolt ball=pilar
thunder Jolt wave=pilar
thunder bolt= cross
thunder shield=cross
quick attack and speed flying=pilar

Zelda and Shiek
Din's fire= cross+pilar
Needles=cancel

Ice Climbers
Ice shot=pilar
Ice wind=cross

The Links
Bow=pilar
Fire bow=cancel
Boomerang=pilar
Big bomb=stops the bomb to then be able to be picked up, cross
little bomb=breaks

Kirby
Final blade beam=cross
hammer=pilar
star shot=cross

Fox and Falco
gun fire= cancel

C. Falcon and Ganondorf
Punch= pilar
F. kick=pilar
Warlock kick= cross
Rush attacks=cross

Samus
Charge shot 1 to 3= pilar
charge shot 4 to 5= breaks
heavy weaponry=pilar for all

Game and watch
Chef's food= pilar
chef's pan= break+ pilar
Oil of Fire= pilar
Oil of Thunder= Cross
Oil of Light= cancel or cross if done by air

DK punch weekest= Pilar
DK Punch Strongest= Cross

Marth/ Roy B charge attack weekest= Pilar
Marth/ Roy B Charge Attack strongest= Cross

JP pound= Cross
JP Rollout Strongest= Stoped with % to Puff, but no pillar= breaks

Ness vs Ness
Fire=pilar
Flash= cross
Thunder bolt=break
Thunder Rush start=cross
thunder Rush middle to end= pilar
Magnet=absorbs the bolt for 2% to 8%

Oh and I know pilar is spelled Pillar ok

It is kind of Neet what PK fire can do don't you think?
Landlag: 30
This attack can be ledge canceled; in other words, if you land an aerial PK fire on the edge, where you would normally go into your "teetering" animation, all lag is canceled.
-------------------------------------

* Up B: PK Thunder 1-26%
PK thunder comes out: 20
PK thunder lasts: 119

Recovery time once PKT is gone: 54

--PKT2--
Total: 70
Hit: 1-36
invincible: 1-9
Landlag: 30 (added to end of total)

Landfallspeciallag: 4
A 2 post guide is posted somewhere below this post; it wont fit here.
-------------------------------------

* Down B: PSI Magnet N/A
Total (minimum): 59
Absorbs: 10-39 (or release+1)
Absorb lag: 18
Release Lag: 21



Never. There are 21 fricken frames of lag. Only in teams, for recovering, or... well, just read on.

Here is another miniguide on how much PSI Magnet heals.
NOTE: because repeatedly using an attack makes it deal less damage, we are only considering the very first projectile fired.
1st shot only Characters

Mario _ Fireballs (12%)

Dr. Mario _ Megavitamins (16%)

Luigi _ fire ball (12%)

Peach _ toad's spores (4-40%)

Bowser _ Fire Breath (Potential for Unlimited %), one blast (4%)

Zelda _ Din's Fire (14-26%)

Pikachu _ Thunder jolt Ball (20%), Thunder Jolt Trail (14%), Thunder Bolt (20% up to 80%)

Pichu _ Thunder jolt Ball (20%), Thunder Jolt Trail (14%), Thunder Bolt (8% up to 32%)

Mewtwo _ Shadow Ball shot(6%-50%), forward throw shots (0-1%)

Fox _ Blaster (6%), up throw, back throw, Down throw lasers (3% each)

Falco _ Blaster (6%), up throw, back throw, Down throw lasers (3% each)

Ice Climbers _ Ice hammer shot (10%), Blizzard (up to 32%) (2-3%) (only one Ice Climber's Blizzard)

Ness _ PK Flash (22-72%), PK thunder 1 (16%), PK fire bolt (8%)

Samus _ Charge Shot (6%-50%)

Kirby - any hat that copies a move, Final cutter energy beam (10%)

Mr. game and watch _ Sausages from chef (10%)

Characters with absorbing projectiles (16/26= 62%)




1st shot only Stages

Corneria _ Airwing shot(24% each), cannon shot(60% each) Note from annoying1359: ^_^

Venom _ Airwing shot(20% each)

Stages with absorbing projectiles (2/29 = 7%)



1st shot only items

Shooting

Lip's Stick _ slow seed shot (16%), fast seed shot (16%)

Star Rod _ slow star shot (16%), fast star shot (24%)

Super Scope _ fire a shot(2-56%)

Ray Gun _ fire a shot (8%)

Fire Flower _ burn the foe (2%+)

Pokeball

Charizard _ flame thrower (4%-24% each)

Cyndaquil _ Fame Thrower (2%+)

Staryu _ swift (2%-50%)

Total types of items with absorbing skills (1/6 =17%)

Total types of items that absorb in shooting (5/5)

Total Pokemon with Healing Skills (3/30=10%)

Total % of items that heal (8/65=12%)

This is all rounded up

Total things (not the number but the things that could do it)that could heal you in this game (26/120=22%)

Check out my shield guide next.

Deku Boy
thank you for finding an error.
Counter pick Corneria

The best down B in the game.
Except for most of them.
That being said, there are times when it is useful. Corneria's blaster heals Ness like a charm, provided you tech or just crouch the first hit. Be careful not to duck through the blasters when starting it up! In actual combat, use sparingly, such as if a spammer is far away, or if your teammate is Fox.


MISC. stuff
-------------------------------------
Ledge stand <100%

Total: 34
Invulnerable: 1-30

No comment. NEVER.
-------------------------------------
Ledge stand >100%

Total: 59
Invulnerable: 1-55

Is there anything more than never?
-------------------------------------
Ledge roll <100%

Total: 49
Invulnerable: 1-27

OK, I guess.
-------------------------------------
Ledge roll >100%

Total: 79
Invulnerable: 1-56

No.
-------------------------------------
Ledge attack <100%

Total: 55
Hit: 24-36
Invulnerable: 1-20

Avoid this, except for mindgames.
-------------------------------------
Ledge attack >100%

Total: 69
Invulnerable: 1-36
Hit: 39-41

Why did they even put this attack in?!?
-------------------------------------
Ledge jump <100%

Total: 37
Invulnerable: 1-14
Soonest FF: 44

No.
-------------------------------------
Ledge jump >100%

Total: 47
Invulnerable: 1-18
Soonest FF: 48

Suicide.
-------------------------------------
Taunt

Total: 60
OK!: 21

YESSS!!!

Note: This next paragraph is complete BS.
NESS'S TAUNT IS THE BEST TAUNT IN THE GAME!!! IF YOU TIME IT RIGHT, THERE IS AN EXTREMELY STRONG HIT RIGHT ON NESS'S HEAD THAT INSTANTLY KILLS YOUR OPPONENT!!! EVEN IF THEY TECH!!! THEY ARE THEN SENT TO EVIL NESS WORLD, FILLED WITH EVIL NESSES AND EVIL MR. SATURNS, AND THEY WILL KILL YOUR OPPONENT VIA FORCING THEM TO WATCH AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MODEL (gasp)!!! THEIR CORPSE IS THEN FED TO THE EVIL SUPER NESS WHO LIVE IN EVIL NESSVILLE IN THE LAND OF THE EVIL NESS!!! FEAR THE AWESOME OK TAUNT!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
-------------------------------------
Jump: airborne on frame 5

Air time: 58
Earliest FF: 30
FF air time: 45

SH air time: 34
Earliest FF: 19
SH FF air time: 24
-------------------------------------

Air dodge
Invulnerable 4-29 out of 48

Ground dodge
invincible 2-18 out of 27

Roll
invulnerable 4-19 out of 31

Landing lag: 4 frames

Dash becomes run at frame 14
Turn-jump Threshold: 25
Run turnaround: 30-31

~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~

Misc. Info.
I wrote a program to analyze matchups between low tiers for the purpose of creating a tier list exclusively for low tier tourneys. I used the Phanna Chart matchup values. For details on my methodology and whatnot go here.

Here's a summary of the results.

God Tier
1) Ness

Top Tier
2) Pikachu

High Tier
3) Yoshi
4) Y. Link
5) Link
6) Mr. G&W
7) Luigi

Middle Tier
8) Zelda
9) DK

Low Tier
10) Roy
11) Kirby
12) Mewtwo

Bottom Tier
13) Bowser
14) Pichu

Thought this would make some of you Ness players happy. :)
Don't worry, I'm plenty happy.;
 

Wave⁂

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
11,871
#2
{{PKT}}
This is NOT by me, annoying1359, but it is by....
Earthbound360!!!


PK THUNDER!​



#Table of Contents

  1. Table of Contents: Seriously, you need to know what this is.
    • Table of Contents
    • Introduction
    • Glossary
    • The Original Guide
    • History of PKT
    • What's So Great About PKT?
    • Learning to Use PKT
    • Basics
    • The Science of PKT
    • PKT Statistics
    • Advanced Tactics
    • General Tips
    • Tricks and Glitches
    • Videos
    • FAQ
    • Final Words
    • Credits
  2. Introduction: Opening notes
  3. Glossary: Smash terms used in this guide
    • Action Cancel (AC)
    • Airdodge
    • Action Replay (AR)
    • Bat
    • (B/D/F/N/U)Air
    • (B/D/F/U)Throw
    • (B/D/F/N/U)Tilt
    • Black Hole
    • Blastzone
    • BtT
    • Dash Cancel
    • Dash Dance (DD)
    • Directional Influence (DI)
    • Double Jump(DJ)
    • DJ Cancel (DjC)
    • Eaten Thunder
    • Edge/Ledge
    • Edgecancel/Ledgecancel
    • Edgeguard
    • Edgehog
    • Fast Fall (FF)
    • FD
    • (F/D/U)Smash
    • Frame
    • Friendly Fire
    • Full Jump
    • Gimp
    • Grab
    • Helpless
    • Hitbox
    • Hitlag
    • Hitstun
    • John
    • Juggle
    • Jump Cancel (JC)
    • Knock Out (KO)
    • Lag
    • Land Fall Special Lag(LFSL)
    • Ledgetech
    • Meteor Cancel
    • Meteor Smash (MS)
    • Pause Spike
    • Powershield
    • Priority
    • PSI Spamming
    • Recover
    • Roll
    • Self-Destruct (SD)
    • Shield
    • Shieldhitstun
    • Shieldstun
    • Short Hop (SH)
    • Shuffle
    • Sidestep Dodge
    • Simna ibn Sind
    • Sourspot
    • Start-up
    • Sweetspot
    • Swing Jump
    • Tech
    • Techroll
    • Tumble
    • Tumble Recover
    • Wall Hug
    • Walltech
    • Wavedash (WD)
    • Whiff
    • Yo-yo
    • Yo-yo Glitch (YYG)
  4. The Original Guide: The original guide and links to the update posts.
    • The First Post
    • Update #1
    • Update #2
    • Update #3
  5. History of PKT: PKT in Earthbound and SSB64
    • PKT in Earthbound
    • PKT in Super Smash Brothers
  6. What's So Great About PKT?: Pros, cons, and why it's so great.
    • General
    • Pros and Cons
    • Popularity
    • Defending Ness’ So Called “Terrible” Recovery
  7. Learning to Use PKT: How to get learning PKT
    • Learning to Use PKT
    • Mastering PKT
    • General
  8. Basics: PKT must knows
    • PK Thunder
    • PKT2
    • Description
    • Parts of PKT
    • Priority
    • Knockback
    • PKT2 Recovery
  9. The Science of PKT: Interesting facts and info on PKT
  10. PKT Statistics: Measurements, damage, and frame data
    • Maximum PKT Head Damage
    • Minimum PKT Head Damage
    • Maximum PKT Tail Damage
    • Minimum PKT Tail Damage
    • Maximum Sweetspotted PKT2 Damage
    • Minimum Sweetspotted PKT2 Damage
    • Maximum Sourspotted PKT2 Damage
    • Minimum Sourspotted PKT2 Damage
    • Maximum Flex Kick Damage
    • Minimum Flex Kick Damage
    • PKT Length
    • PKT Maximum Distance
    • Sharpest PKT Turn
    • PKT2 Distance
    • Point Blank Distance
    • Long Range Distance
    • Maximum TS Distance
    • Forward Techroll Distance
    • Backwards Techroll Distance
    • Start-up time
    • Entire PKT Emerges
    • Duration of PKT
    • Ending Lag of PKT
    • Duration of PKT2
    • Strong Hitbox and Invincibility Time of PKT2
    • Weak Hitbox of PKT2
    • Type 1 Lag of PKT2
    • Type 2 Lag of PKT2
    • PKT Fall Frame
    • Earliest PKTLB
    • DSS Duration
    • PKTB Static Tail
    • PKTBC Static Head
    • Perfect Sweetspot
    • Hitlag of PKT(Head)
    • Hitlag of PKT(Tail)
    • Hitlag of PKT2(Sweetspotted)
    • Hitlag of PKT2(Sourspotted)
    • Hitstun of PKT2(Sweetspotted)
    • Hitstun of PKT2(Sourspotted)
    • Sheildhitstun of PKT2 (Strong)
    • Shieldhitstun of PKT2 (Weak)
    • Shieldstun of PKT
    • Shieldstun of PKT2 (Strong)
    • Shieldstun of PKT2 (Weak)
    • Flex Kick Hitboxes (Face up)
    • Flex Kick Hitboxes (Face down)
    • Flex Kick Invincibility (Face up)
    • Flex Kick Invincibility (Face down)
    • True LFSL of PKT
    • Maximum LFSL of PKT
    • Special Yo-yo Hitbox Duration
    • Strong Thunder Yo-yo Hitbox Duration (Hits)
    • Weak Thunder Yo-yo Hitbox Duration (Hits)
    • Earliest Special Yo-yo Hit Frame
    • Earliest Dropped Jacket Frame
    • Special Yo-yo Reverts to Normal Yo-yo Hitbox
  11. Advanced Tactics: Different advanced PKT techniques
    • Aiming PKT2
    • PKT Juggling
    • Snaking
    • Stage Cancelled PKT (SC)
    • Headshot (HS)
    • One Last Hit (OLH)
    • PKT Platform Drop (PKTPD)
    • Heartbreaker (HB)
    • Dragon Slayer (DS)
    • Changing Direction With PKT2
    • PKT2 Shorts (PKT2S)
    • PKT Aerial Fake Out (PKTAFO)
    • Thunderslide (TS)
    • PKT False Recovery Aid (PKTFRA)
    • PKT2 Anti-Edgehog (AE)
    • PKT Low Blow (PKTLB)
    • Chainbreaker (CB)
    • Bolt of Life (BoL)
    • Full-Range PKT2 (FRPKT2)
    • PKT2 Perfect Horizontal (PKT2PH)
    • Sweetspotting With PKT2
    • Double Sided Sweetspot (DSS)
    • Floorblast (FB)
    • Stageblasting (SB)
    • Sloping With PKT2
    • Descent From Heaven (DFH)
    • Delayed PKT2 (DPKT2)
    • Shocker
    • FlexWhip (FW)
    • PKT Chas Mixture (CM)
    • Surface to Air Missle (SAM)
    • Tailwhipping
    • PKT2 Crawl (PKT2C)
    • PKT2 False Edgeguard (PKT2FE)
    • Inverse PKT2 (IPKT2)
    • Derflecting (PKTD)
    • PKT2 Perfect Verticals (PKT2PV)
    • PKT Barrier (PKTB)
    • PKTB Counter (PKTBC)
    • Advanced PKT2FE (APKT2FE)
    • Thunder Swell Surprise (TSS)
    • PKT Reverse Edgeguard (PKTRE)
    • Pray
  12. General Tips: Helpful hints in using PKT
  13. Tricks and Glitches: Fun tricks and interesting glitches
    • City Jump
    • PKT2 in Place
    • Training Mode PKT Trick
    • Black Hole Proof
    • Static Glitch
    • Electric Ness
    • Mushroom Kingdom Invisible Stageblast
    • PK FireFox
    • PKT2 Poke’mon Stadium Tree Glitch
    • PKTB Ladder
    • PKT2 Going Through Stage Glitch
    • Jacket Bolt
    • Crossing Under Battlefield
    • PKT2 Deathline
    • Thunder Jacket
    • Thunder Yo-yo
    • Thunder Trap (Dropped Thunder Jacket)
    • Shell Shock
    • Jigglypuff’s BtT as Ness
    • PKT and AR Moveswap
  14. Videos: Vieos regarding PKT
    • Simna ibn Sind's Guide to PK Thunder Volume 1
    • Simna ibn Sind's Guide to PK Thunder Volume 2
    • PK Thunder Jibaku
    • Ness's Moves - History Behind Super Smash Bros. Melee
    • BtT Mismatch-Ness on Jigglypuff
    • PK Thunder Blunder
    • SSB64 Link and Ness Team Combo
    • Mugen Match: Ness Vs. Paula
  15. FAQ: Questions you may have about PKT or the guide
  16. Final Words: Simple closure
  17. Credits: Thanks to...
    • My Parents
    • Simna ibn Sind
    • Vilness
    • Dan Smith
    • NESSBOUNDER
    • Everyone
    • Arrowhead
    • Annoying1359

If you do not understand a term used in the guide, or want to find something, press Ctrl+F and type in #(insert wanted item here). Also, when using search, do not type in abbreviations. This guide is formatted so that the easier things are posted first, so if an abbreviation is used that you do not understand, search it using the said method.

#Introduction

PK Thunder. Ness’ best special, and one of the better moves of the game. Being very hard to master, this is only for advanced Ness players to use technically. This move is very unique. It can be used offensively, defensively, and as a long distance recovery move. This guide is here to teach you the many techniques and tricks that can be done with PK Thunder. It also contains statistical information and other facts about PK Thunder. In this guide, you will also find my failurized attempts to draw like Simna to help you understand some techniques. Now onward with the sparks! Note: This guide is for the NTSC 1.0 version of SSBM. Certain tactics in this guide such as PK Thunder Barrier and the Static Glitch will not work in PAL or NTSC version 1.1 and 1.2.

:ness:
Fuzzy Pickles!

#Glossary

#Action Cancel (#AC): Allowing ones self to drop onto the floor face down or face up. From here you can stand up, techroll, or attack with invincibility frames.
#Airdodge: A simple technique that makes your character invincible in mid-air for a while by pressing L or R. It can be directed in a certain direction using the control stick. It makes you fall helplessly afterwards.
#Action Replay (#AR): A cheating device that uses codes to unlock hidden features, get extras, and to just add fun.
#Bat: Ness’ fsmash
#(B/D/F/N/U)Air: Refers to aerial attacks. B stands for back, F stands for forward, etc. Back air means back aerial attack.
#(B/D/F/U)Throw: Refers to throws. B stands for back, F stands for Forward, etc. Bthrow means back throw.
#(B/D/F/N/U)Tilt: Refers to tilts
#Black Hole: A glitch that involves turnips and Super Scope shots. It hits repeatedly and can deal up to 999% in a matter of seconds. Here’s a video guide on how to do it.

………………………………Click me!
# Blastzone: If you are knocked into a blastzone by an opponent, you will lose a stock.
#BtT: Break the Targets
#Dash Cancel: Cancelling the dash animation by either crouching or jumping.
#Dash Dance (#DD): Pressing left right left right on the control stick repeatedly while on the ground to start the dash dance in one direction, then cancel it, start it again in the other direction, cancel it, and repeat. This can be done as much as you want and makes for a great mindgame.
#Directional Influence (#DI): Using the control stick or C-stick to alter your movement.
#Double Jump(#DJ): Jump in midair.
#DJ Cancel (#DjC): A special technique only useable by characters with unique midair jumps such as Ness and Yoshi. This technique requires one to jump, then DJ, and then uses an aerial attack to cancel the height gained by the DJ. This can be used to limit the height in which you use an aerial, or for other purposes.
#Eaten Thunder: A term commonly used for the incident in which PKT hits something when you don’t want it to.
#Edge/Ledge: The end of a stage that you can grab.
#Edgecancel/Ledgecancel: Sweetspotting the edge to cancel an animation.
#Edgeguard: Using attacks to keep a recovering foe off stage and knocking them out.
#Edgehog: Grabbing the edge of a stage to prevent a recovering foe from doing the same, possibly ruining their chances of recovery.
#Fast Fall (#FF): At the falling point of a character’s descent smashing down on the control stick will increase the speed rate of that character’s fall.
#FD: Final Destination
#(F/D/U)Smash: Refers to smash attacks. F stands for forward, D stands for down, and U stands for up.
#Frame: 1/60 of a second. Frames are used as time measurement units in the game.
#Friendly Fire: A basic tournament rule that allows team members to hurt each other. This actually helps Ness more than other characters.
#Full Jump: Simple. Just jump normally to gain high height.
#Gimp: A slang term for an annoying incident.
#Grab: Pressing A+L/R or Z. Some specials are also considered grabs such as Ganondorf’s Dark Dive.
#Helpless: Usually after an Up+B recovery move and airdodges, a character will flash and be unable to do anything as they fall other than DI.
#Hitbox: The offensive range for a given attack.
#Hitlag: The lag that a character suffers after he/she gets hit with an attack.
#Hitstun: The stun that a character experiences after he or she hits an opponent with an attack.
#John: An excuse for a certain incident. Winners may John “I beat you SO BAD!” and losers can say “I wasn’t trying.”
#Juggle: Using attacks that launch you opponent upwards repeatedly so that they don’t get a chance to land.
#Jump Cancel (#JC): Using the starting jump animation to cancel another animation such as the shield, dash, etc.
#Knock Out (#KO): Knocking an enemy past the blastzone, removing one of their stocks.
Seriously, if you do not know what this is, go play another game.
#Lag: The time spent after the hitbox of an attack disappears recovering from the move.
#Land Fall Special Lag(#LFSL): When you land on the ground after falling helpless, you suffer LFSL.
#Ledgetech: Using the walltech ability on the ledge while being edgeguarded.
#Meteor Cancel: Meteor cancelling is using a recovery maneuver after the hitstun of the MS to stop descending.
#Meteor Smash (#MS): A MS usually sends the opponent down fast like a spike. They usually have start-up time too. They can all be recovered from with the Meteor Cancel. Ness’ dair is a MS.
#Pause Spike: Using the pause button strategically to throw someone off while they recover. Hurts those who need rhythm and timing for their recoveries.
#Powershield: Shileding the frame an attack hits you to reflect it, take no shield damage, and remain unharmed.
#Priority: When to attacks clash, the attack with higher priority will give a blow, while the one with less won’t.
#PSI Spamming: When on teams, Friendly Fire is usually on. So Ness can use this to his advantage if his partner has energy projectiles, in which they can continuously fire it at Ness as he uses PSI Magnet to heal him greatly.
#Recover: When knocked off the stage, characters attempting to return are recovering.
#Roll: Pressing L/R+left or right on the control stick or c-stick to move a set distance in one direction with invincibility frames
#Self-Destruct (#SD): Causing yourself to lose a stock.
#Shield: A defensive barrier that is used by pressing L/R/Z.
#Shieldhitstun: The short period of lag that a character suffers when he/she hits a shield with an attack.
#Shieldstun: The short period of lag that a character suffers when he/she is hit while shielding.
#Short Hop (#SH): Quickly tap the jump button or up on the control stick to SH, which is obviously by the name, shorter than the full jump in height.
#Shuffle: Short Hop Fast Fall L-cancel. A quick way of performing aerials, but is somewhat useless to Ness since he has DjC. But it has some uses.
#Sidestep Dodge: Pressing a shield button and down on the control stick or c-stick to quickly sidestep in one place providing invincibility frames.
#Simna ibn Sind: A person who showed up on a toothpaste commercial in 2005. He is also one of the best Ness players, and the original founder of this guide and many of its techniques. You will find some of his quotes here.
#Sourspot: Hitting with the weakest part of an attack.
#Start-up: The amount of time it takes for a moves hitbox to emerge.
#Sweetspot: Sweetspot can have 2 meanings: One is grabbing the edge, and the other is hitting with the strongest part of an attack.
#Swing Jump: A type of DjC that consists of you DJing forwards and then using an aerial. A good way to do this is to SH then DJ, then aerial.
#Tech: Pressing L or R before you hit a solid surface while tumbling to cause your character to stand up, roll, stop in place, or wall jump to prevent further knockback and provide invincibility.
#Techroll: Holding left or right as you tech to roll instantaneously. This can also be done while action cancelled by simply pressing left or right.
#Tumble: When you are hit with a strong enough attack to knock you off of our balance, in the air, you will begin to tumble.
#Tumble Recover: Pressing left and right alternatively while tumbling to get out of the tumble animation and fall normally.
#Wall Hug: Most often recovering by staying as close to the wall as possible and using the slopes to help.
#Walltech: Pressing L or R when hit towards a wall to stop bouncing or wall jump if up is held before the tech.
#Wavedash (#WD): One of the most well known advanced techs. This consists of you jumping and airdodging into the ground in rapid succession to just get the visual of a slide.
#Whiff: A total miss.
#Yo-yo: Ness Usmash or Dsmash
#Yo-yo Glitch (#YYG): A powerful glitch specifically for Ness in which a trapbox is set upon the point where Ness was standing when he performed the YYG. See this thread for more.

…………………………………………Click me!


This is not what PKT really looked like in the past. This is from a Mugen match. Search Youtube.com for more on Mugen.

#The Original Guide

#The First Post:


#Update #1: Pray
#Update #2: Full-Range PKT2
#Update #3: Floorblast & Thunder Swell Surprise

#History of PKT

#PKT in Earthbound: PKT is a spell that was used in the game Ness originated from, Mother 2, or otherwise known as Earthbound. Strangely, this spell was not used by Ness, but in fact, used by his companions, Paula and Poo. The game claims that Paula may have taught Ness these spells. This was done so that Ness would have more offensive abilities since in Earthbound, he wasn’t far on the offensive side. There were 4 types of PKT:

PKT Alpha: This move was learned by Paula at level 8. It required 3 PP to use. It did around 120 lightning damage to a single enemy.

PKT Beta: PKT Beta was learned by Paula at level 25. Requiring 7 PP, this move could do around 130 lightning damage, TWICE in a row to one foe.

PKT Gamma: This move can be learned by both Paula and Poo. Paula learned this spell at level 57, while Poo learned this at an earlier level of 41. This move uses up 16 PP and could do around 200 damage for each of its THREE hits to one enemy at a time.

PKT Omega: The most powerful version of PKT. This is exclusively for Poo, who learned this move at level 55. At a cost of 20 PP, this move would pile FOUR hits on one enemy doing 200 lightning damage, totaling up to great amounts.

Now, PKT did not always have 100% accuracy. It was very random, but the more enemies there were present, the higher the success rate of hitting would be. If there were 4 or more enemies, the attack would always hit. Also, each PKT spell could break the defensive barriers.

# PKT in Super Smash Brothers: Now, Ness DID have PKT in another game, which should be pretty obvious as to which one it was. Super Smash Brothers 64! This move has changed greatly since the 64 days. In the old Smash, both PKT and PKT2 could travel a longer distance. Also, when you land on the ground with PKT2, you would experience almost NO lag. PKT did around 6% at the head and 3% at the tail. PKT2 was Ness’ strongest attack back then, doing a whopping 30%. PKT2 had only one hitbox in 64. Also, the incantation of PKT was ledgecancelable. The knockback of PKT was minimal and just popped the enemy up. Also, the crowd was drastically shocked when Ness would hit himself, and would gasp every time he performs PKT2.

All this stuff makes it sound like Ness should have kept his old PKT right? Well, think about the new things we have in PKT now. The knockback is better. It is stronger, and pulling the enemy in the direction that it came from is more versatile. PKT also travels faster now, and the hit range of PKT on Ness is better, meaning that controlling the direction you are sent during PKT2 is easier. In many ways, PKT can be considered more versatile nowadays. Many current PKT techniques could not be done in the old game. Sweetspotting with PKT was difficult, and Ness did not slow his fall as much as now. The head of the PKT now does more damage, and in 64, PKT would push you straight through platforms (both good and bad). PKT was also lost when Ness snapped out of the incantation (The same happens for later versions of Melee).


This is what PKT really looked like in the past.

#What’s So Great About PKT?

#General: When you first play Ness, you may not find many of his special moves appealing when it comes to competitive play, but PKT could change that. PKT is one of Ness’ most valuable moves. Why is it so great? Well, as you may know, you can control it. This leads to great projectile maneuverability, with its added speed, which can help you hit moving targets easily and stop campers and stallers. It is also a good edgeguarding tool. It keeps you safe from the hazards of going off the edge as all edgeguard projectiles do. PKT2 is Ness’ recovery move. I think you know what would happen if Ness couldn’t recover >_>. Not only does this cover a great distance when used as recovery, but it can inflict high damage and knockback. It can also go in infinite directions.

#Pros and Cons: Now, if you go around the Smash community saying that PKT rocks, then people are going to go like “WTF!? T1S NU8 1S T3H CRAZ0RXZ!!1!!Shift+1
Remember the pros if you encounter these people.

Pros
25% attack
High knockback
Great edgeguarding
Long range
Long duration
Stops stallers and campers
Long distance recovery
Infinite directions
Can cancel knockback
Can lead to counters
Great mindgames
Quick sweetspotting
Can AC Ness
Good Priority
Looks cool (lol @ shine… hexagon >_>)
Overall versatile

Cons
Laggy
Extremely hard to learn
Abusable as recovery
Certain techniques are risky to use

#Popularity: There are some reasons why PKT is not as popular as it should be. Some like simplicity. PKT is NOT an easy move to learn. But when you do master it, it can be better than those simple to use moves. It is also hard to use as recovery. Some people say that it is too bad in recovery to be good at all. People like Bowser’s Whirling Fortress right? Well, the same deal is there. It has terrible recovery too, but that doesn’t stop people from liking it. Anyways, Ness’ recovery is not as bad as some people make it out to be. There are ways to protect Ness from eaten thunder, and PKT2 is one of the higher priority recovery moves in the game (At least in the early part). Now, some people say it is too laggy to be of good use too. Good Ness players and PKT wielders would know how to use this move to avoid getting punished for lag. And again, the popular Spin Attack is laggy as well, but it is popular as well no? Also, one of the final reasons is that Ness is low on the tier list (Which by the way he should not be lol :p). Most likely, if Ness were where he belonged, more people would realize the godliness of PKT.

#Defending Ness So Called “Terrible” Recovery: Now, people always think Ness’ recovery is terrible. Some even think it is the worst. But on the contrary, Ness’ recovery is not THAT bad. Note that it is not very good either, but not as bad as others make it out to be. This was originally posted in the “Recovery Tier List” thread.

Distance: Ness covers a great distance while using PKT2. It’s generally the same as Fox’s Firefox move. Also, it takes similar start up time, unless you are aiming for special recovery. Not to mention Ness has the largest sweetspot range in the game.

Eaten Thunder: People also complain that Ness’ thunder is too easy to eat and screw him. First, they should note that only some characters can do this. Characters like Mario and Falco wouldn’t want to attempt this. Also, if the Ness is smart, he will try to keep it away from the stage making it harder for opponents to eat it. Not to mention PKT is fast in itself, making it even harder to catch. With IPKT2s and DPKT2s, eating PKT is just plain not a great edgeguarding option. And if you are out by Ness anyways, why not just hit him?

Other Facts: Ness can easily sweetspot the ledge very quickly; in one frame from ANYWHERE during PKT2. he is also provided with a good amount of invincibility frames in the beginning. During that time, PKT2 has just as much priority as Peach Parasol. PKTB is like an off stage shield, so edgeguarding one who has mastered this isn’t easy. Also, Ness’ unique wallhugging ability can help him greatly. If you hit him in the air while he is using PKT, he CAN reuse it. Not to mention the obvious “Any direction you choose’ thing. Ness’ recovery is among the most versatile, and you can even mindgame his recovery.

Character Recovery Comparison: Now, some may say that Marth has better recovery. Well, think of it this way: If you hit a Marth back off stage while he is recovering, there is probably little chance that he can make it back. Hit Ness off again while he recovers, and he can still have a chance. The same goes for Mario, Falco, and Yoshi. Ness can take multiple hits off stage and still have a chance at making it back. Now, some might say he is too vulnerable during PKT2. well, after the sweetspot, he is vulnerable, but just as vulnerable as many other recoveries. FireFox, Green Missile, Dark Dive, and Final Cutter leave all of their respective characters relatively vulnerable in comparison. And please, it was once thought that Bowser and DK had better recoveries. They only go horizontal, and just about as far as Ness does.

Advanced PKT Techniques that Aid Recovery
PKTB
PKTBC
IPKT2
DPKT2
Wallhugging
Perfect Sweetspot
PKTRE
Pray
DSS

Here was my original post, without abbreviation and some explanations since not everyone knows PKT stuff. Me defending Ness' recovery
Can I get carried away!? :p


Learn to use PKT well. You don’t want stuff like this happening.

#Learning to use PK Thunder

#Learning to use PKT: PKT is Ness’ learning curve, meaning that after you have mastered this, almost everything else you need to learn about Ness will be much easier in comparison. Getting to know PKT is for the ADVANCED NESS PLAYER ONLY! New Ness players are often intimidated by Ness’ unique Up+B move. This move takes a lot of practice to learn, even with just aiming, getting a grasp of control, and recovering. If you want to use Ness, you must first know the basics.

#Mastering PKT: Now this takes a VERY long time. To master PKT, you must know all of the basics, as well as get good at the advanced moves (You don’t have to PERFECT them though to be considered good). You won’t be punished for silly mistakes, and you may find PKT saving your life. This may take weeks/months/years/centuries to do. Once you master PKT, there is nothing you can’t do as Ness :D

#General: In general, do NOT attempt to use this move a lot in battle if you are not well trained. You will only be hurting yourself. Also, ignore the advanced section of this guide if you are not comfortable with PKT, Ness, or are not willing to practice.

#Basics

#PK Thunder: PK Thunder is considered Ness’ best and most versatile move. It is done by pressing up on the control stick and pressing B at the same time. This requires a lot of practice to pull off.

#PKT2: Its actual name is PKT Jibaku, but it is more commonly known as PKT2 and will be referred to that in this guide. When you release PKT, you can control it. Hit Ness himself, and you have performed PKT2.

#Description: When you use PKT, Ness will shout at the top of his lungs “PEE-KAY THUNDER!!11!1!” After he puts his hands onto his head, he begins to vibrate with lots of harmless bolts circling him. Then, a large blue ball about the size of his head comes out of him. It looks like an onion, with many layers, and has a rough, electric barrier around the head. After the head comes out, a jagged blue tail follows the path of the head and flashes. When it disappears, a small white cloud appears and Ness shakes his head and snaps out of the incantation.

When you use PKT2, you will be hitting Ness, and the instant the head of thunder hits Ness, he screams out “HWAOUGH!!!111!!1!!” There will be a small red explosion near the point where this move started, and large blue circle will vibrate out from this position as well, similar to what you may see if you throw something into water. There will also be a one frame view of the green “crash” animation. While he flies, clouds and sparkles follow him. A large barrier of thunder surrounds him and flashes outward repeatedly.

#Parts of PKT: PKT has two main parts: The head and the tail. The head has a hitbox about as big as Ness’ head, and the tail is composed 6 small hitboxes that each follow each other.

PKT2 is also broken into two main parts: The early part, and the later part. The early part is stronger, with an almost full-body hitbox, and makes Ness invincible. The later part has a smaller hitbox, about the size of Ness’ head again.

#Priority: The bolt of PKT has strange priority. It is similar to lasers, in which it sometimes completely ignores priority and goes straight through some attacks, but there are some that will get rid of the bolt like needles.

But PKT2 has more priority compared to other recovery moves since it is so powerful at the start. In fact, it is one of the most powerful recovery moves in the game. It is even associated with invincibility frames. But the later hitbox doesn’t defend Ness too well, and he can still get hit out of it.

#Knockback: PKT heads will cause a bit of knockback. Not very high, but not too low. The knockback is somewhat similar to that of a sourspotted dsmash yo-yo. The opponent hit by the head will be pulled in the direction that the thunder came in. The tail causes minimal knockback that simply stuns the opponent and in a way spikes them in the air as they lose vertical height.

PKT2 at the earliest has very high knockback, and sends the opponent at about a 45 degree angle. The later part has similar effects, but with less power in the knockback.

#PKT2 Recovery: Recovering with PKT requires you to use PKT to hit yourself back on. No, this does not hurt Ness in any way at all. The direction you are sent depends on where you hit Ness. There are also some advanced PKT recovery techniques to help the little guy to survive. But you may not need that, since good Ness players are invincible! But for those unlucky Ness players, or for those who happen to sneeze during the middle of game play, we have come up with many PKT recovery techniques.

This is an image that shows the general recover range that Ness can cover with PKT2. The stage used is FD. This image will be referred to throughout the advanced recovery sections. The Yellow indicates only being able to recover by sweetspotting. The green border is for PKT2PV light blue is for sloping area, and the black is for PKT2C. The pink border is where you could use IPKT2s to recover, and the blue is where you should PKT2PH. And the BTW, if you can’t really make it out, the Yellow text describes that only the ledge is accessible at these points.



Gotta get with the basics. Like hitting people with PKT.

#The Science of PKT

Now, PKT is a very unique move. As you may know, you can control PKT, but then you lose control over Ness. The bolt always moves forward, and you can turn it in circles. It disappears if the head of PKT hits solid objects. But it can pass through the bottoms of thin platforms. If Ness uses this in the air, he stops for a while, and then starts descending slowly, then faster, then even faster until he falls really fast. After PKT is over in the air, Ness will fall helplessly and suffer LFSL.

PKT2 is also very unique. This move can be used as recovery, and can be directed in any direction like teleport and Firefox. But this move can actually make Ness “crash.” Also, the way that you are sent when using PKT2 depends only on where Ness is hit by PKT, not the trajectory. Also, Ness changes direction when wallhugging with PKT2. Again, if done in the air, Ness will first go helpless, then experience LFSL.

Some interesting facts:
PKT2 is more effected by the stage than any other move in the game.
Because of PKT, Ness is the only character that can easily set himself on the ground.
When powershielded or reflected in any way, Ness snaps out of the incantation. He can get hurt by the new bolt obviously, but it will have no control and will continue in the opposite direction it came from when guarded against.
Since PKT is an Up move, it can be used to dash cancel and out of shield.
When Ness is near a blastzone, he falls faster (Like all other characters). So be careful when using PKT near a blastzone, keep in mind your falling speed, as PKT moves the same speed as normal.
The camera normally pans out for PKT, but it won’t do so near blastzones.
After PKT2 in the air, Ness experiences two types of lag.
An entire bolt of PKT is composed of 7 hitboxes: 6 that make up the tail and one large head.
Ness is the only character that can change the path of his recovery move while it occurs because of PKT.
If you hit the ground with PKT2, Ness will follow the direction of the ground.
If you wallhug correctly with Ness using PKT2, he actually changes direction.
If you fly off of an edge while using PKT2, Ness will continue in the direction he was moving based on the slope of the ground he was just on.
PKT will disappear as soon as it reaches the border of a blastzone.
During the aerial lag of PKT, Ness drops, but is still spinning and moving forward. This limits his DI afterwards.
PKT has cream filling.


HWAOUGH!!!

#PKT Statistics

# Maximum PKT Head Damage: 8%
# Minimum PKT Head Damage: 4%
# Maximum PKT Tail Damage: 1%
# Minimum PKT Tail Damage: 0% (…)
# Maximum Sweetspotted PKT2 Damage: 25%
# Minimum Sweetspotted PKT2 Damage: 13%
# Maximum Sourspotted PKT2 Damage: 20%
# Minimum Sourspotted PKT2 Damage:
# Maximum Flex Kick Damage: 6%
# Minimum Flex Kick Damage: 3%
***Both Flex kick do the same damage***

# PKT Length: 11 feet
# PKT Maximum Distance: 82 feet
# Sharpest PKT Turn: 15 feet
# PKT2 Distance: 30 feet
#Point Blank Distance: 11 feet
***Point blank is the sweetspot***
#Long Range Distance: 29 feet
# Maximum TS Distance: 14 feet
# Forward Techroll Distance: 13 feet
# Backwards Techroll Distance: 12 feet

# Start-up time: 20 frames
# Entire PKT Emerges: 11 frames
***It takes 11 frames for every hitbox of PKT to come out, but at frame 12, the last hitbox stretches out, so on frame 12, PKT reaches its maximum length***
# Duration of PKT: 107 frames max
# Ending Lag of PKT: 54 frames
# Duration of PKT2: 70 frames max
# Strong Hitbox and Invincibility Time of PKT2: First 9 frames
# Weak Hitbox of PKT2: Next 27 frames
# Type 1 Lag of PKT2: 34 frames
***This is the lag of PKT2 in which Ness is still spinning and moving, but no hitbox is present***
# Type 2 Lag of PKT2: 30 frames
***This lag occurs when you end up on the ground with PKT2***
#PKT Fall Frame: Frame 35
***When you use PKT in the air, Ness freezes in air for a bit, and starts falling again slowly at frame 35***

# Earliest PKTLB: 4 frames
***This tells the frame in which you can get a PKTLB as low as possible***
# DSS Duration: 24 frames
# PKTB Static Tail (The earliest frame you can take action after a PKTB): Frame 15
***This is only for percents below or around 100. After that, the time you need to wait to take action after PKTB will gradually increase depending on damage***
# PKTBC Static Head (The earliest frame you can take action after a PKTB): Frame 40-50
***This is very hard to measure since PKTB with the head is VERY damage dependent. This is for very low percents and is a very rough measurement***
#Perfect Sweetspot: 1 frame
***If you sweetspot perfectly with Ness, he should grab the ledge the frame he arrives there at any point during PKT2.***

#Hitlag of PKT(Head): 7 frames
#Hitlag of PKT(Tail): 4 frames
#Hitlag of PKT2(Sweetspotted): 17 frames
#Hitlag of PKT2(Sourspotted): 13 frames
#Hitstun of PKT2(Sweetspotted): 12 frames
#Hitstun of PKT2(Sourspotted): 10 frames

# Sheildhitstun of PKT2 (Strong): 11 frames
# Shieldhitstun of PKT2 (Weak): 9 frames
# Shieldstun of PKT: 10 frames
# Shieldstun of PKT2 (Strong): 24 frames
# Shieldstun of PKT2 (Weak): 19 frames

# Flex Kick Hitboxes (Face up): Frames 20-21 for hitbox 1 | Frames 24-25 for second hitbox
# Flex Kick Hitboxes (Face down): Frames 19-20 for hitbox 1 | Frames 25-26 for second hitbox
# Flex Kick Invincibility (Face up): Frames 1-25
# Flex Kick Invincibility (Face down): Frames 1-26

#True LFSL of PKT: 4 frames
#Maximum LFSL of PKT: 24 frames
***This is kinda weird. The game thinks that you suffer 24 frames of LFSL, but in truth, you can take another action after frame 4 of your LFSL.***

#Special Yo-yo Hitbox Duration: First 11 frames
#Strong Thunder Yo-yo Hitbox Duration (Hits): 21 frames
***The duration of the hitbox of a Special Yo-yo is extended if it hits***
#Weak Thunder Yo-yo Hitbox Duration (Hits): 19 frames
#Earliest Special Yo-yo Hit Frame: Frame 2
***Kind of hard to explain with just a subtitle. When you use a special yo-yo, a new trapbox will only be dropped if you hit something on frame 2***
#Earliest Dropped Jacket Frame: Frame 2
***This means that if you get hit on frame 1 of a special yo-yo, the jacket will NOT be dropped.***
#Special Yo-yo Reverts to Normal Yo-yo Hitbox: Frame 12
***If you Yo-yo while wearing a jacket, and do not hit anything before frame 12, the yo-yos hitbox will revert back to normal and no new trapbox will be set.***

FYI, special yo-yo frame data is the same for both up and down smashes.


Mommy! Look what I can do!

#Advanced Tactics

LEAR-NING-CURVE!!!

Difficulty rankings:
* Easy. You should be able to get this down in little or no time.

**Fairly simple. You should be able to get this down in a short period of time, but it may not be easy to do at first.

***Moderate. You will need some good practice before you can pull this one off in a real match.

****Hard. You will need a lot of practice and training before you can even think about using this in battle.

*****Extremely hard. You will need to practice your *** off before you can use this.

Okay, now for the moves.

#Aiming PKT2 *: PKT can shoot Ness at any angle on a 2D plane. The distance given will always be the same, but when recovering, horizontal distance may be traded for vertical height. So a perfectly horizontal shot will give maximum horizontal distance. A shot from below will make Ness rise. A shot from above will send Ness down, and will put him on the ground if angled sharply. Grasp aim before you SD.

#PKT Juggling*: Such a simple technique. This comes to some Ness players naturally. All it is is using PKT repetetivley to keep your opponent in the air. But usually, they will get to the ground eventually. Know when this will happen and stop ahead of time because if you don’t, you will probably get punished.

Now, some people may try to tumble recover then airdodge and fastfall. Well, if you are smart with PKT, you can still hit them as they fall helpless. If not, at least get them in the LFSL. Characters with other aerial dodges that are quick may be a problem though, like Samus and her bomb jumps.

Reccomendations
Luigi: His floatiness makes him easy to juggle, and he has trouble maneuvering in the air.
Zelda: Again, a floaty character. She does not have extremely good aerial movement either.
General: Any character that is floaty and has mediocre aerial movement is good. Do NOT attempt this on fast faller since they will probably land and counter strike during the PKT lag. Also, characters that can maneuver well in the air like Jigglypuff and Peach. You may whiff and get punished.

#Snaking *: Very very basic. Not sure if it should even be considered a technique. Whenever you wish to hit an opponent with PKT, you can wiggle it across a jagged path. This promotes to turning and tailwhipping. It can also confuse them as to where the PKT may go.

Reccomendations
FD: A large amount of area to maneuver PKT in a jagged pattern.
Fox: When edgeguarding him with tailwhips, snaking helps this out a lot.
General: Any place with wide open space with nothing to eat your thunder is good to curve PKT around in. Also, characters that are normally vulnerable to tailwhips are recommended.

#Stage Cancelled PKT (#SC)*: This is very easy to do. Basically, if you attempt an PKT tech and somehow fail (like if they roll or sidestep dodge it) and are unable to floorblast to cancel the lag, just hit a stage component to get rid of the PKT and snap out of the incantation. If you whiff edgeguarding with PKT, you don’t want to be waiting for the opponent to hit you while you still have PKT out.

Reccomendations
General: Not much to say here. Just any thick stage that you can easily hit with PKT fast. So Battlefield and Kongo Jugle wouldn’t be the best, but it’s still easy there.

#Head Shot (#HS)*: All this is is hitting someone with PKT while they are right next to you or in you. This will make PKT hit them without you having to control it. This can be used for small combos, and can be used in team tactics. After moves that launch opponents up (like a utilt or dair), you can follow up with a HS. Just make sure that they are launched high because of damage enough to not counter. If the PKT hitbox is still inside of Ness in any way, it is a HS.

Reccomendations
Ness: BoL
Mr. Game & Watch: PKT CM
Jigglypuff: The floatiest and one of the lightest characters in the game. You can HS her at fairly low damages and still not get punished.
General: Floaty characters are the best since you can HS combo them without getting lag punished. The faster they fall, the more damage they need before you can HS them without getting punished. Also, use these in team tactics when you can.

#One Last Hit (#OLH)*: Something pretty easy as well. If you know you cannot make it back to the stage recovering, you might as well spend your last few seconds of life getting revenge on your enemy. Just shoot out a PKT, but don’t try to hit yourself, but try to hit your opponent. If it hits, it probably won’t do much, but still, it’s damage. Try to catch them off guard. Also, if they KOed you with aerials, and they are still returning to the stage, you may be able to hit them as they recover, and possibly KO them if they have bad recovery. (Highly unlikely though)

Reccomendations
Fox: If he shinspikes you and you are still alive, but know are going to be KOed, OLH him. If he shinespiked you off of the stage, you may be able to intercept his recovery.
Falco: Same as Fox except for his dair spike.
Kirby: His only practical way to KO is to edgeguard you off of the stage to death. So as you approach the blastzone, try busting out a OLH.

#PKT Platform Drop (#PKTPD)*: A very easy technique to do. May be situational, but still something to know.

With PKT, if you stand on the edge of a platform and PKTLB (Perfectly facing the edge, but it does not matter facing away), Ness will fall off as he uses PKT. This can get you away from lag punishers on stages with many platforms like Battlefield.

If you stand on the edge of a platform, you can actually shoot Ness down and off of the platform. Just shoot PKT at him at a point on Ness in which if he PKT2ed, he would continue in that direction without hitting the floor. You can use this to hit enemies under you with PKT.

Reccomendations
Battlefield: Lots of platforms, lots of PKTPD.
Dreamland 64: Same thing as Battlefield.
Poke’mon Stadium: Perfect. No doubt, it’s great because of the varying platforms. IMO, earth formation is the best.
General: Any stage with a good amount of platforms to drop off of. Make sure there aren’t many things to mess you up like the sinking platforms on Fountain of Dreams.

#Heartbreaker (#HB)*: A very basic technique. Character specific to the Ice Climbers. When you knock off a pair of Ice Climbers together, you can easily separate them to screw their recovery with PKT. You should aim for Nana, but if you hit Popo, do a PKTFRA.

#Dragon Slayer (#DS)*: A bit like the HB. Yoshi exclusive. All this is is using PKT to screw Yoshis recovery without breaking a sweat. PKT will stop Yoshis DJ after or around 130%. It doesn’t pop him up like other characters either. So if you knock a Yoshi off after 130% and you won’t have to think much about edgeguarding with PKT on your side. Just be sure to hit him DURING the DJ, otherwise, he will be popped up.

#Changing Direction With PKT2 **: When you hit Ness with PKT, you can change his direction. Hitting him with PKT on his left side will cause him to face right during and after PKT2. The same works vice versa. Ness’ wallhugging capabilities are slightly different than that of others. Wall hug with Fox on FD, and you will notice that he continues in the same direction, but do so with Ness, and he actually changes direction.

#PKT2 Shorts (#PKT2S)**: There are many ways to shorten PKT2. The basic way is to jump in the air and PKT2 into the ground at an angle. This will use the grounds’ traction to shorten the normal length of PKT2. You can also shoot Ness at an angle while standing on a platform. And try angled ground. They always have interesting effects due to PKT2s strange nature.

#PKT Aerial Fake Out (#AFO)**: A little mindgame made by Nessbounder. It’s a bit easier to do than it sounds. Just target a falling foe. Jump out to them. Now, they are probably going to expect an uair. But instead, use PKT early to catch them off guard and screw up their timing. Be sure to FF and escape afterwards. This is a safe way to hit an aerial foe, but ends juggles, so use it when you need to, but not 100% of the time.

Tip: Try DjCing the PKT sometime late during your full jump to not only make it look like you are going to uair them, but make it sound like it too!

Reccomendations
General: Anyone who does not fall too fast or has great aerial mobility.

#Thunderslide (#TS)**: This is the strange effect of Ness sliding completely horizontally during the early frames of PKT using forward (Or backwards) momentum. You can get Ness to slide sideways during PKT by DjCing with PKT. Be sure to gain some speed. Another way is to run off of the edge and then PKT. Depending on your timing, you could slide very far, or not at all. These are the best ways to TS. A basic jump can lead to a TS. You can also run then use the PKTLB. The final way is to WD then PKT.

This can be used to get the PKT closer or farther from Ness. If you TS forward and send PKT forward, it will be closer to Ness than if you had stood still. If you TS forward and send PKT behind Ness, it will be farther from Ness, and will end up behind him faster than if you had stood still. This can help PKT2 angles.

#PKT False Recovery Aid (#PKTFRA) **: This is a tricky edgeguard technique. But the basic idea is fairly simple. Just hit a recovering opponent from behind with a PKT. This will pop them up and help them get back a bit. They will take advantage of this boost, but this sets up perfectly for a Bair, or another edgeguard attack. Someimtes, it’s just used to add the little damage you need to KO the foe.
Opponent: Thanks!
You: *Bat* You’re welcome! ^_^

Tip: Try doing this a distance from the edge and facing backwards so you can follow up with bairs and bats/ftilts, or what have you.

Reccomendations
Shiek: Her recovery isn’t so great, but it isn’t easy to intercept. So PKTFRA Shiek back into range so she doen’t have to use the invincibility of vanish and knock her off!
Fox: Since he has to charge before he can recover, PKT from behind will actually pull him AWAY. Nice.
Ness >_>: Same as Fox
Dreamland 64: Just about the biggest amount of offstage area in the game.
General: Characters that have hard to intercept recoveries are good to use this on. Especially ones that rely on sweetspots since this usually puts them past the ledge. Characters that need time to recover are also good. Also, any place with enough off stage distance so that you have time to follow up PKT with another attack.

#PKT2 Anti-Edgehog (#AE) **: Sometimes, getting back on to the stage with PKT2 isn’t easy, and for edgehoggers, sweetspotting is not an option. So here we have ourselves a pretty simple technique for if you encounter an edgehogger. All you do is aim for the edge of the stage at an angle in which you can slope off of it. Make sure you do not crash. If done correctly, you should slide up past the ledge a bit. The opponent will have to roll off, but if you shot past the ledge, you should fall towards and sweetspot edge after the game knows that the opponent has gotten off.

Reccomendations
FD: The flat sided ledges allow Ness to AE straight up, providing the best effect because he gains maximum height and will be close enough to the edge to sweetspot it.
Poke’mon Stadium: Like FD
Fourside: The entire stage is vertical :rolleyes:.
General: Any stage that has a completely vertical ledge, or one that will allow you to slope up it and still sweetspot the edge is good. Make sure it is thick enough too. Do NOT attempt this on Fountain of Dreams or Battlefield! They shoot Ness AWAY from the ledge.

#PKT Low Blow (#PKTLB)**: All you do is press Up and then B in rapid succession, but not at the exact same time to have Ness jump a bit before you use PKT. If timed perfectly, you should see Ness’ feet go into the ground a bit. See statistics for the earliest frame to PKT. This can be used for PKT Slides, or if for some reason you would want to get PKT lower than its normal starting point. You can even use it to help you drop down off of a platform as you use PKT or to ledgeblast. If you want to see if you can do it perfectly, go to Mushroom Kingdom. Stand on the center of any block and use PKTLB. If it breaks, you have done it perfectly. Also, I don’t know if it is just me, but I always seem to do it perfectly if I DD first. As long as Ness’ hitbox goes under the stages barriers, one can consider his action a PKTLB.

#Chainbreaker (#CB)**: An edgeguarding tactic that’s character specific. This is for Samus, Link, and his younger self. When they try to recover using their hookshot/grappling beam, shoot a PKT out. If you can hit them with the tail it will make them lose height gained from the hook, and will most likely KO them if they are low enough. Timing plays a big role in this. With the wrong timing, this can be survived. Be sure to tailwhip them as they try to pull themselves up. Also, be sure that they are low and have used up their DJ. Even if they survive, it may take up some of their time, allowing you to follow up with an edgeguard attack if you are quick enough.

#Bolt of Life (#BoL)**: Ness is a great team partner. So let’s just say you have yourself another Ness on your team. With friendly fire and PSI spamming, you could easily help one another. But which projectile to use? Well, PKT would probably be the best choice as it has the least lag. Sure PK Flash is more powerful, but that takes a REALLY long time. Allow one Ness to use PSI Magnet and have the other one stand right next to him. Keep him doing HSs so that you don’t have to turn it around and everything. Repeat as needed. Use this when you have a spare moment, like after you KO both opponents at the same time. BTW, each bolt usually heals around 16% for the Ness. Doing this is pretty easy. It’s just finding the time…

#Full-Range PKT2 (#FRPKT2)***: This was explained a bit in the science of PKT2, but we’ll go a bit more in-depth. As said before, the trajectory of PKT has NOTHING to do with the direction PKT2 goes. It could be traveling left and send Ness down. It can be heading down and send Ness up. This is hard to explain. Let Simna do it himself.


This was Simna’s drawing BTW. Here I try to be like him and phail. >_>

Reccomendations
General: Stages with good open area to move PKT around and nothing to eat your thunder like FD is good.

#PKT2 Perfect Horizontal (PKT2PH)***: Really easy on land, but have you tried it while recovering? Not as easy. There is no real trick to doing I, but hints on points of impact. If you get knocked off of the stage, you will want to hit Ness on his outer arm (farthest from the stage) or his backpack if that is facing away from the stage. So if you are knockedoff the right side of the stage facing left, you want to hit his backpack. If are knocked off the left side facing left, hit his arm. Try to hit at the very center of these impact points. These can be used to gain maximum horizontal distance from PKT2, and can be used for sweetspotting. Keep in mind the pre-fall and TS.

Reccomendations
Dreamland 64: This stage has so much area off stage, that you can easily see where PKT is to hit yourself perfectly.
General: Finding good stages to use this is tough since most stages’ blastzones have the camera borders cutting off close so you can’t see PKT. This also involves you sending PKT farther behind you than almost any other PKT technique.

#Sweetspotting With PKT2***: There are two ways to sweetspot the edge with PKT2. One way is to cross through Ness’ sweetspot range in any direction other than up. This will instantly end the PKT2 and make Ness sweetspot. The other way is to crash into the ledge with PKT2. This will activate the DSS and then allow Ness to sweetspot (Unless you go too far from the ledge during the DSS). A perfect sweetspot done by crossing through Ness sweetspot range will result in a quick sweetspot of 1 frame.

Reccomendations
FD: This stages flat ledges allow Ness to sweetspot with any technique possible.
Fourside: Same as FD
Poke’mon Stadium: Same as Fourside >_>
General: Any stage with flat sided ledges is great for sweetspotting. Battlefield = BAD.

#Double Sided Sweetspot (DSS)**: If you hit a wall, ceiling, or ledge with PKT2, Ness will suffer a few frames of “stun.” During this stun, Ness can grab the edge from anywhere within his sweetspot range, meaning he can sweetspot the ledge facing backwards. This is called the Double Sided Sweetspot. If you don’t sweetspot an edge or land before this stun is over, Ness will end up facing the opposite direction. If you hit the ground during this stun, Ness will be ACed.

Reccomendations
General: Just about any stage with a good solid ledge to hit. Just make sure the ledge isn’t at a wonky angle like at Battlefield.

#Floorblast (#FB)***: The Floorblast is an interesting technique that uses PKT to knock Ness down into an ACed state. There are two types of floorblasts:

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Grounded Floorblast (#GFB): All you have to do it hit Ness on his head while grounded to put him on the floor. Now, it’s easy to do, but what is the purpose of this you ask? Well, you have cancelled the lag of PKT. Also, from here, you can stand up to get back in the battle, techroll, or do a flex kick. Flex kicks are good because they are unexpected often, they have good range, and can hit twice. It’s all about the invincibility frames. Just try not to hit yourself sideways by accident.

Aerial Floorblast (#AFB): This is basically the same thing as the floorblast, but in the air. Simply hit Ness on the head in the air and send him towards the ground at an angle close to 90 degrees. What is the difference? Well, when doing an aerial floorblast, PKT2 will actually come out, meaning that it will have a hitbox, and PKT2s lag will be cut instead of PKT. Also, this can be used as an aerial escape maneuver to cancel the lag in the air and possibly counter. Ness will scream, and there will be an explosion as well. You can even choose which side you want Ness to be on when he is lying on the ground (Face up is usually better for the flex kick done while face up is more effective). When you do a floorblast on a platform that can be dropped through, the game thinks it is an aerial floorblast, and will give Ness all of the abilities of an aerial floorblast (minus the hitbox). This can also be used to put on the THUNDER JACKET!

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Now, I haven’t told you the best way to pull it off yet, now have I?:p
Well, the best and fastest way to do this is to jump off of the ground and immediately DJ so that it seems like you DJed off of the ground. During your rise, you can move Ness where you wish. Now at about ¾ of the DJs height, send out PKT. Ring it above Ness in a balloon shape. Now bring it back down and hit Ness on the head right as he lands. If he screams and an explosion appears, you have done it correctly. Now, to choose the side Ness is facing while on the ground, hit him in the right spot. Hit the back of his head to put him on the ground face down. This leads to a one-two punch flex kick which is faster to come out, and has more invincibility frames than the next flex kick. If you hit him in the front of his head, you will have him face up, which leads to a flex kick that doesn’t have the exact qualities of the previous flex kick, being its longer start up time and less invincibility. But the hits are much more rapid in succession, and the range is greater. Not to mention it looks cooler! =D You can also move a bit in one direction depending on which side you hit Ness.

Reccomendations
Battlefield: If you do a GFB on a platform, it will count as an AFB.
Dreamland: Same as Battlefield.
General: Any place with platforms is good since you can easily do an aerial floorblast, so you can easily choose which FB you want to do. Remember, a GFB on top of a platform always puts you face down, and a GFB will put you face up, so you can choose which flex kick you wish to use more easily too.

#Stageblasting (#SB)***: Along with floorblasting, (Which has its own subsection since it is the most useful) there are other ways to cancel PKT2 using the stage. Whenever Ness hits a stage component, and shows the green impact aura, his action can be considered a stageblast. Most of these stageblasts usually don’t leave Ness ACed. Not including floorblasting, there are 3 types:

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Ledgeblast (#LB): Hit the ledge with PKT2 and sweetspot it. Depending on your angle, the time it takes for you to sweetspot the ledge after impact will vary. There are many ways to help you do this. You can TS off of the edge then LB. You can even use PKTLB perfectly while teetering off the edge then LB. If you face backwards, you can use PKTLB, but don’t do it perfectly. You can even just jump or run off then LB.

Roofblast (#RB): Almost useless, but hey, it’s something. All it is is hitting a solid roof with PKT2. Great Bay and Hyrule Temple have solid roofs, but those stages are banned in most tournaments.

Wallblast (#WB): Like the floorblast, this has a difference grounded or aerial. On the ground, you will most likely hit the floor before you recover from you DSS time. If you do, you Ness will be ACed. In the air, you can recover from the DSS time, and will not end up ACed.

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Why would you want to use these you ask? They can’t AC Ness (Minus the grounded WB) and they hardly ever hurt anyone. Well, you would probably want this for the almighty THUNDER JACKET!

Reccomendations
Poke’mon Stadium: The different land formations can allow you to do all types of stageblasts minus the roofblast, but that’s almost useless anyways.
General: Any stage with enough land formations that still provide room to guide PKT is good for stageblasting. But be careful with stages with close blastzones to the stage. Ledgeblasting is made difficult due to auto fastfall.

#Sloping With PKT2***: Refer to the blue border in the recovery pic in the basics. Wallhugging with Ness can be hard because unlike other characters, he can “crash” into the wall. But it proves useful in some ways since he changes direction when sloping. Now, the best stage to do this is FD. The trick is to shoot Ness at the lower part of the wall at the perfect angle. If the angle is too sharp, Ness will crash and you will get KOed. The angle depends on where you are too. The side of FD is slanted, so if you are directly under it, a PKT2PV will let you slope. If you are a bit to the side, a slightly angled PKT2 would do. Here is a rough sketch of a few options:



The Yellow is the path of PKT2. The red dots are the starting points of PKT2, and the blue is Ness’ sweetspot range.

This takes lots of practice to master, but will become fairly easy once you can do it. Also, be sure not to be too high, otherwise, you will shoot past the ledge and miss it.

There are other stages you can do it at too. In fact, it can be done in almost all stages, but it is not useful in some like Battlefield. But stages with flat sides are good choices like Yoshis Island and Princess Peach’s castle.

Reccomendations
FD: Just about the best stage to slope at. The nice walls allow Ness to climb up and sweetspot the edge in many areas.
General: You won’t find any other stage that is like FD when it comes to sloping, but stages with flat sides like Fourside and Yoshis Island are easily wallhugged.

#Descent From Heaven (#DFH)***: Imagine you are being juggled. Being juggled by a very good juggler too like Luigi. Now, how the **** are you going to get down to the ground? Well, let’s say he is using his aerials. When he comes up to aerial you, shoot out PKT and direct it under you. But don’t hit yourself, hit the opponent. Since they are in the air, they will only have a few choices. They can either take the PKT, stunning them and letting you get to the ground, or airdodge, allowing you to get to the ground again. But do not use this if they are grounded. If you do, they can simply shield, which has no lag, and will cause you to get punished.

Reccomendations
Fox: Fox players know that their uairs are finishing moves. So they will sometimes try to jump out and uair you. DFH them as they come up to get you. Make sure to fastfall though, or you may be punished during your helpless fall of LFSL.
Marth: His long range uair is almost impossible to penetrate with your dair, so DFH to get him away as he comes up.
Shiek: Again, her uair has priority, but also KO power. Very deadly, so don’t try to dair from above and DFH instead.
General: Any character that juggles well, or can finish you with uairs would be good to DFH. Be careful with characters that maneuver well in the air though.

#Delayed PKT2 (#DPKT2)***: Now we all know that the longer PKT is out, the faster Ness falls right? Well, sometimes, you want to use PKT to recover, but you don’t want to hit Ness right away. Well, even though FFing is automatically applied, you can still linger PKT a bit before hitting Ness. Just make a circle like normal, but bigger. NEVER let PKT go neutrally then decide to hit yourself later. You will not make it in time. Note that the longer you delay it, the harder it is to hit yourself in the chosen direction. This can be used to avoid thunder munchers.

Reccomendations
Mario: Mario is one of those characters that can eat your thunder, but only gets one chance, so if he misses, he’s heading back to the stage. If he isn’t he’s stupid, so try to keep PKT away from Mario with DPKT2s.
Roy: Same as Mario
Dreamland: Lots of offstage area to help you see the large radius that PKTis traveling, also keeping you away from those nasty blastzones.
General: Characters that like to eat your thunder, but only have one chance at doing it are good to use DPKT2s on. Also, stages with good offstage area far from the blastzones. Blastzones cause Ness to auto fastfall, and you can’t see Ness or PKT off screen. Stages like Green Greens with small offstage area are bad.

#Shocker ***: This move is pretty much the same as the TSS, except the tailwhip is excluded. Instead, follow a falling foe in the air and use PKT. Now aim it at them. If they airdodge, it’s your chance to take advantage of their helpless state. PKT2 into them as they fall.

Reccomendations
Luigi: Again, his fall speed and floatiness make getting to him with PKT2 easy.
Jiglypuff: Finally, something that you can use on her. If Jigglypuff airdodges PKT, it was probably by reflex since she had better options. Take advantage of this slow falling foe.
Bowser: Although he may not fall very slowly, his massive size makes him an easy target.
General: Those who don’t fall too fast, or are pretty big.

#FlexWhip (#FW)***: This move is kind of like the TSS. What you do is you target an airborne for. Tailwhip them as needed, then as they approach you, floorblast yourself. Right after that, flex kick. It is pretty unpredictable. The tailwhips and invincibility can protect you from aerials, and people will try to take advantage of your PKT lag, but the floorblast cancels it. So you are ready to counter!

Reccomendations
Mewtwo: His dair is nothing to deadly, so you may not suffer badly if you fail. His floatiness also makes doing this easy, just watch out if he manages to get away with teleport or something.
Zelda: Like Mewtwo, her dair is not really scary, and she is also slow when it comes to fall speed.
Luigi: Again, it’s his poor aerial mobility that kills him. Tailwhipping him a few imes then flex kicking him shouldn’t be too hard. But if you miss, prepare to take on one powerful dair.
General: Characters that have weak dairs and fall slowly are good choices.

#PKT Chaos Mixture (#CM)***: Another PKT thingy from NESSBOUNDER’s guide. This is a team tactic that involves Mr Game & Watch and Ness. Simply have Mr. G&W use his Oil Panic move and Ness stand inside the bucket. Use 3 HSs and Mr. G&W will have an Oil Panic move that will do around 30% and will have really high knockback. Again, pretty easy to do, but the time is the issue. It also takes longer than the BoL since you must do this 3 times before it will have any effect. PKT proves most useful in this team tactic again for the same reasons as BoL.

#Surface to Air Missle (#SAM)* or ***: Yeah, the difficulties have range. The difficulty depends on how you try to do it. The idea is to get a grounded Ness airborne with PKT. This can be used to hit someone with PKT2 with another plan like in combination with PKTFE. It also makes sure Ness doesn’t suffer ground lag which is much greater than aerial lag and LFSL. The simplest way to do this is to stand on a platform, edge, or some sloped ground. If you hit Ness’ anywhere from his underside, he should gain some height. The harder way is to do this on complete flat ground. Since you can’t hit him anywhere from the bottom now, you can hit him either on his back heel or front toe. You can still gain height, but it may not be as much as when done on a platform, edge, or sloped ground. For sound training to do this on solid ground, try this: Shoot PKT out and let it go neutrally until you hear Ness start the word “thunder.” Then curve the PKT down as low to the ground as possible and let it go straight horizontally until it hits Ness. Done correctly, he should gain air.

Reccomendations
Battlefield: SAMing on platforms is very easy, and with all of the platforms here, it makes a good choice for SAMs.
Dreamland: Same as Battlefield
Kongo Jungle 64: You can bring PKT under the entire stage here, making SAMs very easy to pull off anywhere.

#Tailwhipping*** or ****: Tailwhipping is using the tail of PKT to hit the enemy instead of the head. This causes a quick stun on the enemy and a 1-2% of damage while keeping the thunder still out. There are two ways you would want to use this.

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Tailwhipping Grounded Opponents: When tailwhipping grounded opponents, you should be a good distance away from your foe. Now if they rush towards you, cast PKT and guide it towards your foe. When they approach, turn your PKT around a sharp turn and let them hit the tail. Afterwards, BE SURE TO HIT THEM WITH THE HEAD! If you do not hit them with the head, you leave yourself vulnerable to attacks. This tactic is for a spoonful of damage, a bit of stun, and slowing approaches. At high damages, it can even be used as a combo starter. Use this tactic in competitive play ONLY if you have mastered it. There are more methods of grounded tailwhipping. If an opponent is dashing across a thin platform, you can bring the PKT under the platform and have it rise through it right in front of the enemy. You still have to hit them with the head afterwards. Try and find more methods of grounded tailwhipping that you can use well, practice them until perfect, and then try them out in battle.

Tailwhipping Airborne Opponents: This method of tailwhipping is a bit safer and easier than tailwhipping grounded foes, but again, will prove no use to you unless you perfect it. You can use it on falling foes by making a net under them as they fall. This could be used to support combos. But a better use for air tailwhips is for edgeguarding. There are multiple ways to edgeguard with this too. It stops all vertical movement. For one method, you can tailwhip the foe just by spinning the thunder in their recovery path a few times. You can even tailwhip them a few times (about 2) then hit them with the head which pops them up into Ness’ range, and finishing them with an edgeguard attack (An SHed dair near the edge or edgehog does nicely. Just watch out for meteor cancels). On fast fallers, putting the thunder in front of them to stop their forward movement, then direct the thunder under their fall path while snaking, repeatedly tailwhipping them. Experiment with tailwhips to see how you can use it. For a nice gimp KO, try fthrowing an opponent off of the edge then tailwhipping them to death. PK THUNDAH POWAH! >:D

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Why would you want to tailwhip you ask? Well, a few things. Tailwhips have little knockback, so edgeguarding with them seems to spike. It is like edgeguarding with Falco’s lasers. It also keep the PKT alive while still hitting with it. The hitboxes are bigger than the head lengthwise too.

Reccomendations
Fox: His recovery is by far the easiest to tailwhip to death. Also, his quick dash animation allows for better grounded tailwhips.
Luigi: You can easily tailwhip him in the air on stage to help in holding in combo hits. Try to hit with the head afterwards to pop him up again for more free blows.
Pikachu: His recovery is crazy, but somehow very easy to tailwhip because of its large hitbox.
Ganondorf: Tailwhips take away the ability to use Wizard’s Foot to regain DJs. Sweet. Works the same way on Captain Falcon.
General: For edgeguarding, characters with straight forward recoveries are easy. The faster they fall, the better too. For on stage aerial tailwhips, characters that fall slow and have poor aerial mobility are good. For grounded tailwhips, quick dashers are best since it can catch them off guard better. But tailwhipping is so versatile, and you can use it on just about any opponents in the right situations.

#PKT2 Crawl (#PKT2C)*** or ****: This unique PKT2 tech uses the ability that PKT2 has to follow ground terrain. We know that Ness will follow the ground if you dive into it at an angle, but what you may not know is that Ness can follow the ground terrain by shooting past it, and just barely landing on it. This can be situational and hard, but can save your life from edgehoggers. Refer to the black border in the recovery picture in the basics section for where you may want to PKT2C at. Without it, you may have to sweetspot at those areas, which will leave you vulnerable to edgehogs. These can even be used to surprise enemies since it changes Ness’ direction, and even to shorten it with platforms, which by the way can also help with PKT2C. Run off of a platform and TS. Then PKT2 back onto the platform. Done correctly, you should notice Ness fly up a bit, then follow the direction of the platform. If you land during the aerial lag of PKT2, you will also crawl. You will end up spinning on the ground for a few frames if you do it this way. Here’s a diagram showing how Ness’ PKT2 path should look like if done correctly:



The red point is where PKT2 began, and the Yellow is the path.
As long as Ness ends up spinning like in PKT2 on the ground as you attempt to shoot above it, you can consider it a PKT2C.

Reccomendations
Battlefield: This places strange ledge angle actually helps in doing PKT2C. Also, it is very easy to do on platforms as compared to solid ground.
Dreamland 64: Same as Battlefield.
Kongo Jungle 64: Since this entire stage can be passed through, PKT2Cing here is easy.
General: Since using a PKT2C on a stage with platforms you can pass through from under is easy, stages like those are good choices.

#PKT2 False Edgeguard (#PKT2FE)****: A very tricky and risky maneuver, but yields impressive and effective results. Your opponent almost never expects this! ;)
This is an edgeguarding maneuver. As your opponent returns to the stage, you will need to shoot out PKT near the ledge as they approach the stage. Now send the PKT out for a stroll and tell it to come back later. Your opponent will see you casting PKT and think they can take advantage of the lag and your lack of control over Ness. So they may try to land behind you with their recovery. When they do land behind you, it’s time for your PKT to come back and hit Ness into the opponent that has landed behind you. Score! To stall the PKT, you may want to make it look like you are attempting to hit the foe offstage, so shoot it out there. While doing so, you also want to try and “force” your opponent to land behind you, as they are probably going to attempt to avoid the PKT. Try circles and figure eights for stalls. Some things to watch out for though…

  • Hitting the opponent with the PKT. This will probably pop them up, but it’s not so bad, as you might be able to do a PKTFRA.
  • Attempting this maneuver on a recovering opponent who is not falling helplessly. Airdodges and Up+B moves cause foes to fall helplessly, but if they are not helpless, they can attack you during your incantation!
  • Being pushed off of the edge. Since PKT causes Ness to fall helpless afterwards, the enemy may land right on Ness, shoving him off the edge to his doom. Don’t stand too close to the edge now.
  • Having the enemy land in front of you. This is really bad. If they land in front of you, there is nothing you can do. If you try the PKT2FE anyways, you will be knocking yourself off of the edge, and if you don’t, you will get hit with a strong attack. So don’t stand too far from the edge either.
  • Getting hit with their recovery move. An obvious one. DON’T GET HIT!!!
  • Hitting yourself in the wrong direction. A simple plan failure. Hit yourself straight down, and it’s not so bad as you have just floorblasted, but hitting yourself in the OPPOSITE direction of the stage will result in a SD.
  • Running out of PKT. This is bad. If you don’t hit yourself, you will suffer great lag which can be punished. Don’t linger with PKT too long now.

Yeah… this is why it’s so risky.

Reccomendations
Fox: Fox usually can go at a good angle to land behind you. They might think that their speed is enough to get behind you and counter.
Zelda: Sweetspotting with Zelda isn’t so easy, so they might be forced to land behind you. Also, since she goes incvincible, you have no chance of getting your PKT eaten!
Pikachu: When you shoot out PKT, Pikachu players may take advantage of their low landing lag, and go over you since it is easy as Pikachu. Well, keep PKT low (try making a figure eight) then time your strike right, and you will succeed.

#Inverse PKT2 (#IPKT2)****: This is an advanced recovery technique. Now, when recovering, getting your thunder eaten isn’t fun right? Well, say your recovering and you have someone behind you. If you do the normal behind you circle, you will hit them, get your thunder eaten, and get KOed. Not cool. Well, you could do the IPKT2 to avoid that. First, you must get a grasp on how sharp the PKT can turn (See statistics).You send PKT in front of you, then turn it around as sharply as you can so that it hits the point where you want to be hit. Here’s another diagram:



The blue is the path of PKT. The red dot is where you want to hit yourself. The green point is where you want to turn the PKT as sharp as possible. The red line shows what you should NOT attempt in this kind of situation.

BTW, you may end up in this kind of situation while edgeguarding with aerials off stage.

Reccomendations
FD: FDs dent in the bottom gives Ness a good space to be close enough to the stage to still get to it, but not get it eaten by the stage.
Battlefield: Like FD, but better since there is such little stage to eat your thunder.
Kongo Jungle 64: Now this one is great. There is just about nothing there to eat thunder that is moving towards the stage.
General: Since an IPKT2 moves closer to the stage in the process, you want to avoid having the thunder eaten. So stages with areas near it that can let you IPKT2 back, and provide space for maneuvering PKT near it are good.

#Derflecting (PKTD)****: A team tactic. Okay, this has a pretty simple concept, but is pretty difficult. When your foe knocks your partner off the edge, and they can’t make it back on their own, you may be able to help them since Friendly Fire is used in tournament battles. What you do is cast PKT and direct it out towards them off of the stage. Then, hit them to pop them up and possibly give them a chance to get back. There are several reasons as to why this is so difficult though. First off, you might not be able to react fast enough to your partner getting knocked off. Second, hitting them may be hard. Their fall speed and recovery move may cause difficulties like if you fall as fast as Falco or if their recovery move is like Pikachu. Also, you must hit them in the front. If you don’t, they will be pulled AWAY from the stage. Not good. Thirdly, during the PKT incantation, you may be left open for your opponents to wail on you. Try to send the PKT on a straight path towards your partner, so that if you get hit and lose control of the PKT, it will keep going and still have a chance of hitting your friend. And finally, even if you do hit your friend, there is a chance that your opponent will still be edgeguarding him, and he/she may still get KOed putting your effort to waste.

Reccomendations
Marth: Marth alone does not have a recovery that is too special, so there will be times in which you must help Marth. Marth is a good character to do this on since he can stall his fall off stage with his Dancing Blade, giving Ness more time to hit him.
Mario: The same thing as Marth, except he has a few more stalling options, like the Cape and Tornado.
Jigglypuff: Now, on a rare occasion, Jigglypuff will run out of jumps. Without her jumps, Jigglypuff has NO vertical recovery alone, but with pound, she can stall as much as she wants until Ness is ready. Just don’t do it so much as to get in trouble for it >_>
General: Any character that has mediocre recovery and can stall a bit off stage is a good choice for PKTD.

#PKT2 Perfect Verticals (#PKT2PV)****: It is pretty obvious what this is. It just means going completely straight up with PKT2. This is a lot harder than PKTPH, but a bit more useful. This should be used if you happen to slip into a place in which you cannot PKT2 back on at an angle, slope, or if you will end up just on the edge of Ness’ sweetspot range. To do this, send PKT around to the bottom of Ness in a semi-heart shape. When you do, hit Ness’ feet depending on which direction. To face the direction you want, aim for the foot that is furthest away from the stage. But don’t just hit it yet! When you find the right foot, aim for the edge of the foot that is closest to the stage. Like this:



The stage is that big blocky thing, and the red point is where you would want PKT to hit at. The point of impact is VERY important. The slightest misaim could result in angle, or facing the wrong way. Ness should fall on PKT where it ends as illustrated by the blue oval. Refer to the green border in the recovery picture in the basics section for where you may want to use a PKT2PV.

There are ways to help you get a grasp on this. Go to FD. Hang off of the ledge. Now drop off without DI and then DJ, making sure you do not sweetspot the edge again. The DJ puts you right under the ledge making it so that you can only get up by sloping or by a PKT2PV. So now use PKT just under the ledge. If you do it right and sweetspot it, drop down again and DJ, but wait a bit longer before you try to PKT2PV again. This will result in you having to PKT2PV a bit further away from the edge, making the window of mistakes narrower. If you succeed again, drop down even lower, and repeat until you have reached as low as you can get.

Referring to the picture is another method of learning this. Look at PKT2’s path. You want to move PKT in a semi-heart shape by turning down as sharp as possible when it comes out, then keeping it going diagonally. Keep guiding it until it is about a PKT head length under Ness’ feet. Then hit your foot point.

Another way to help is sound training. When you use PKT, curve it around Ness as sharply as you can. You need to hit yourself at the same time he finishes the word “thunder.”

Reccomendations
FD: There are some places near the lower end of the stage that you can only slope up using a PKT2PV.
Battlefiled: Since there is barely anything to slope off of here, if you ever end up beneath the ledge, a PKT2PV could save your life.
Fountain of Dreams: Wallhugging here is not the best idea, so try to use PKTPVs to save your life instead.
General: Stages or areas that you cannot slope into are good to PKT2PV near.

#PKT Barrier (#PKTB)**** or *****: A pretty tough one here. This basic ability of this maneuver is to cancel all knockback of any attack. Remember, this can only be done in early versions of the game. In these versions, if something is to happen to Ness that would disturb his PKT incantation (like getting hit, or KOed), he would lose control of the bolt, and it would be able to hurt himself. To do this, you would take an enemies blow while casting PKT, lose control of it, and let yourself get hit with your lost PKT. The PKT has very little knockback, so getting hit by it would actually SAVE you from high knockback attacks. But note that PKT does not come out as quickly as a shield, so you will have to PKT ahead of time with good reflex. Also, remember that you are taking damage from both your opponent’s attack, and your own, meaning you will sustain high damage, so only use this for recovery defense, blocking aerially, or if you know that you can land a finishing move or combo. There are reasons why you would want to use this:

In the air, your only other defense is airdodge, but that leaves you helpless afterwards making it bad for recovery, or if you are high up in the air in which the enemy can attack you again.

If you want to prevent shieldstun and knockback in the shield so you could land a grab or some other short ranged attack.

There are some attacks you shouldn’t PKTB. Multi-hitting attacks like drill kicks and tornadoes because PKTB only blocks one hit. Very weak moves like jabs and blasters because they have just about as little knockback as the PKT, and are not worth blocking with PKTB. Lag less, or very small lag attacks like the shine since they can attack you even after you have PKTBed. Finally, very close range moves like rest because your PKT will end up hitting the foe, causing little knockback upon them, and allowing them to punish your lag. There are many types of PKTB categorized in different ways:

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Based on Position of PKT

PKTB Static: This is one of the two versions of PKTB. Static PKTB is when you PKTB and the thunder is just coming out of Ness’ head. This is often done with reflex, and most often leads to a PKTB with the tail, but can lead to PKTB with the head.

PKTB Remote: This is another version of PKTB. To do this, have someone hit you while the thunderbolt is behind you. This is sometimes done by accident while one is trying to recover with Ness. They ring it around back and get hit into the thunder that they were originally trying to use for PKT2.

Based on Hitbox of PKT

PKTB Head: This is a type of PKTB categorized by where Ness hits the loose PKT. When you lose control of PKT, Ness can hit the head or the tail. This depends on when you are hit, and how you DI. When you hit the head, Ness will pop up. This is best used for recovery purposes.

PKTB Tail: This type of PKTB is most often used since it is the easiest. It consists of you getting hit with the tail of the PKT. This is also best used for PKTB Counter (see next section). This is used because it causes very little knockback, allowing another action.

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Reccomendations
Recovery: The only time you would really want to PKTB without countering is in recovery. During recovery, a PKTB with the head is best since it pops you up. Static is better too since it means no movement from the original position.
Samus: AUGH! Projectiles galore. You can’t always airdodge around these since you are offstage, so PKTB them instead.
Marth: Just like Samus except for his 10 mile long sword.
General: In recovery, use this on characters that edgeguard with strong edgeguarding game that you can’t airdodge around.

NEXT POST!!!
 

Wave⁂

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
11,871
#3
#PKTB Counter (#PKTBC)*****: A very tough one indeed. This technique requires you to PKTB and then punish the enemies attack lag with your own attack. Remember to only use this if you are sure you can KO them, or are in the air.

Reccomendations
Marth: Tipper fsmashes hurt, but if you can see it coming ahead of time, you can actually PKTBC one of these. Not to mention if Marth spaced well enough to tipper, you can tipper an fsmash to counter yourself! ^_^ Also, his aerials cover a great range, so you can PKTBC one of these in the air since airdodging would lead to falling helpless.
Luigi: His fair is powerful, quick, and low on lag. Again, PKTBC is a good choice for aerial game, so use this to avoid this nasty move.
Shiek: Just about the same as Luigi.
General: People with slow and/or long range moves that you can see coming should be good. Also, powerful aerials would be good for PKTBCing.

#Advanced PKT2FE (#APKT2FE)*****: A very difficult technique I discovered by accident. It is very flashy and rewarding if done correctly. It is basically the same as a PKT2FE, but you tailwhip the enemy once before you PKT2. This stops their recovery move and stuns them. They are probably still DIing towards the stage, so they will still drop behind you. Then PKT2 them out! Try to let PKT go out up a bit by itself before you turn it to help you with the tailwhip. If you are closer to the edge, the turns you must make to tailwhip them will be easier.

Reccomendations
Fox: The way he can fly over you while you use PKT makes him perfect to tailwhip first, then PKT2FE.
Pikachu: This little rodent zooms so fast in many ways that simply putting a PKT off stage should be enough to tailwhip him once. He will drop down a bit and be forced to land behind you. PKT2FE!!!
Captain Falcon: He goes at a strange angle using Falcon Dive, so try tailwhipping that as he goes over you and then PKT2FE.
General: Any character that would normally be easy to tailwhip can be APKT2FEed. Characters that fly over Ness if you mess up their recovery plan are good too.

#Thunder Swell Surprise (#TSS)*****: This is a flashy and powerful PKT technique. This should be used after a juggle and as a finisher. The basic steps are simple, but pulling it off isn’t. To do this, target an airborne foe. Then, cast PKT and tailwhip the foe once. This will prevent any aerial attacks that they may send at you. Then, hit yourself and PKT2 right into the stunned foe! There are many components to consider though. The fall speed and DI matter a lot.

Tip: Doing this in the air or on a platform makes this easier to pull of since you can move yourself in any direction and hit Ness anywhere. Be careful about where you hit yourself too! But you don’t have to hit always have to hit Ness towards the opponent.

Reccomendations
Mewtwo: Mewtwo is a big target, and is very floaty, so the TSS should work well on him.
Luigi: Same as Mewtwo
Dreamland 64: This stage has many spaced out platforms to easily SAM Ness making hitting opponents after the tailwhip with PKT2 easier.
General: Characters with good aerials that they know they can abuse and floatiness are suggested. Stages with platforms that allow easier SAMs make hitting with PKT2 after a tailwhip easier.

#PKT Reverse Edgeguard (#PKTRE)***** : One of the most difficult of all PKT techniques. Now, when you get knocked off, your opponent will try to edgeguard you. If you need to use PKT2 to recover, and your opponent actually jumps out to edgeguard you, this is your chance. Shoot out PKT. Now, tailwhip them once, then hit yourself. A lot easier said than done. After you have tailwhipped them though, there are 3 things you can do:

  • Sweetspot the edge and edgehog the opponent if they can’t make it back all of the way.
  • Return to the stage and edgeguard them.
  • BLAST THEIR *** OFF!!! Make sure that you can make it back still if you attempt this, unless it is the end of the game.

This technique works, but is probably one of the hardest things in the game to do, much more master. If the opponent hits you, try as hard as you can to PKTB. But if they eat your thunder, well, it was nice knowing you. Write your will.

Also, there is another way to do this, but requires luck. You will almost never do this on purpose. When revering with PKT2, the opponent may hit you. If you are lucky, the thunder that you have just lost control of will hit the opponent, hopefully pulling them away from the stage. You who suffered hitstun might be able to PKT2 .

Tip: For the tailwhipping part, you might want to try to do an IPKT2 to help you hit the opponent, or to avoid eaten thunder.

There are just some things that come out better from Simna’s mouth!:grin:



Reccomendations
Dr. Mario: He like to edgeguard with his bair a lot. With its good knockback and low trajectory, getting hit with this isn’t fun.
Fox: Shinepikes are probably the thing you may want to counter most in an offstage-Fox edgeguarder situation. His fall speed makes him a good choice to tailwhip first.
Falco: Same as Fox except for his dair. Vicious. Also, you can take advantage of his worst recovery ever.

#Pray ****** (Count the stars and check the scale):
Guy on a megaphone:
“*KSSHH* HAS ANYONE OTHER THAN SIMNA HIMSELF BEEN ABLE TO DO THIS?”
Everyone:*Dead silence*
AUUGHH! Man, this one takes the cake. This has to be THE HARDEST thing to do in the game EVER! Okay, this here technique only works on Fox. This is like an advanced PKTRE (which was uber hard on its own). What to do: When you are knocked off the edge, the Fox will try to edgeguard you. Now, a common method of edgeguarding for Fox is the Shine which is used for Shinespikes. Now, when he goes out, expect a Shinespike, get hit, and then IMMEDIATELY pull out PKT. Now, when it comes out, do not aim it at yourself, but direct it above the Fox who will most likely JC the Shine. When he does, he will get tailwhipped, and then lose his second jump, forcing him to resort to using Firefox. Now ring the PKT under Fox to catch him in another tailwhip, then hit yourself. You want to hit yourself into the path of Fox’s Firefox so that you get hit yourself. This will pop you up and give you another chance to return to the stage. Careful about being edgeguarded though!

DEATH TO GIYGAS!: If the Fox that was edgeguarding you was unable to JC his Shine, then congrats, you have KOed a Fox! The tailwhips will be too much for the Fox, and he will be to low to recover, but not to low to hit Ness. This is a bit less difficult to do, but still insanely hard.

Tip: If you get Firefoxed near the stage, try to walltech jump to help you get back.

Since Simna is probably the only person on Earth to ever do this, hear what he has to say.



#General Tips

Aviod the dreaded “Pause Spike” when recovering.
Be careful when using PKT on stages that can move Ness around, like Jungle Japes and Green Greens. They can mose Ness off of the stage during PKT or away from PKT when you want to hit yourself.
When using PKT near blastzones, try to do things faster due to increased fall speed.
Use PKT2 to recover ONLY if you need to, and cannot recover with an airdodge.
If you can airdodge recover, but are tumbling, remember to tumble recover.
If you can’t make it back to the stage with an airdodge, but still end up close, try to move back a bit to avoid PKT hazards.
If you fall in between chasms (like is Fourside or Mushroom Kingdom) go for a OLH.
Ledgeteching is not very necessary while using PKT2, but if you need to, remember to walltech jump. If you don’t, you will be forced to sweetspot the edge with a PKT2PV.
Avoid stages that have too much clutter to eat up your PKT.
Try not to use PKT on stages that have moving blastzones (Rainbow Cruise, Icicle Mountain)
If you gimp someone with PKT, expect johns. :chuckle: Be ready with “No Johns”


One of the most popular Ness glitches ever.

#Tricks & Glitches

* Very Easy. You should be able to get this down in no time.

**Easy. You should be able to get this down in a short period of time.

***Moderate. You may need to mess around before you can do this.

****Hard. It will take a few tries before you can see this for yourself.

*****Very hard. You will need to try pretty hard to get this one going.

Pulling off glitches are often easier than PKT techniques, so a five star difficulty glitch may be easier than a four star technique. A glitch with an “or” represents the difficulty of using it in battle (Using the technique difficulty scale). Also, the glitches are separated from the steps outside of performing them, for example, the “Black Hole Proof” trick does not include the difficulty of getting a black hole.

#City Jump*: If you use PKT2 on a building in Fourside towards another building, you should crash into it and grab the building that you started on. Not a glitch, but funny to see.

#PKT2 in Place *: This is pretty simple. Just go to a stage with platforms you can break by attacking them (Like Mushroom Kingdom and Yoshis Island). Now stand on one of them and shoot Ness sideways with PKT2. He should break the platform he is standing on and PKT2in place in the air.

#Training Mode PKT Trick*: Simple. In training mode, shoot out PKT. Now as Ness say “Pee-Kay” go to the training mode menu and click reset. The Ness should return to his starting point, but the PKT will keep going in the direction it would have normally. The PKT that you reset can hurt either Ness or his opponent.

#Black Hole Proof*: This is interesting. If you PKT2 into a Black Hole, you should fly RIGHT THROUGH it completely unharmed. This is due to PKT2s high priority.

If you equip TJ, you can move through it too! Just make sure the vulnerable part of Ness (His upper head) doesn’t touch the Black Hole, otherwise, he will get hurt.

#Static Glitch or #Electric Ness (#SG) or (#EN)**: An interesting graphical glitch. During the incantation of PKT, Ness has sparks around him. Well, this glitch actually allows Ness to keep those sparks even when he is not using PKT. To do this, you must be standing on solid ground (No platforms). Now use PKT to floorblast yourself. You can even get hurt during the incantation. If done correctly, you will be able to see the sparks as you move around. The sparks will go away if you do one of these 3 things:

  • Shield
  • Use PSI Magnet
  • Use PKT again
  • Get KOed

You can do this in battle after you KO an opponent as a small taunt. Also, be careful not to knock yourself sideways.

Note that this glitch does not work in later versions of Smash.

Here are a couple of images
SG Picture 1
SG Picture 2

#Mushroom Kingdom Invisible Stageblast**: Go to Adventure mode and in the frist level, go to the area where you climb the pillar to fight the Yoshis. There are a few platforms that help you get up there. If you shoot up past one of them (Easily done by wallhugging) and just bareley get by, Ness will fall action cancelled as if he had stageblasted, even though he did not really hit anything.

#PK FireFox **: A weird little trick. If you use Fox and Ness’ Up+B moves into each other, sweetspotting with Ness, they will clink, revert to their standing positions, and slide about 1/3 of the distance of FD.

#PKT2 Poke’mon Stadium Tree Glitch **: Amazing glitch. To do this, go to Poke’mon Stadium (duh) and wait until it changes into the fire formation. When it does, sand to the right of the burning tree. Now jump and PKT2 at the tree at an angle so that Ness slides down the trunk. You should see Ness go underground and move towards the right ledge. He will then crash into it and grab on. Weird. Also, if you get the wrong spacing, you may end up SDing. XD

#PKTB Ladder ***: Get Ness to a really high damage % (I mean REALLY high like 999%). Now PKT barrier an attack. Ness should actually gain knockback from his own PKT and fly up with it. DI up and he will go up more and take multiple hits from the tail and rise again with each hit. Smash DI up and you will go even higher!

#PKT2 Going Through Stage Glitch ***: Kind of like the tree glitch. Get a Ness and a person with a cape (Mario or Doc). Now PKT2 towards the Mario and have him cape you as you get to him. You should see Ness turn around and go under the stages floor a bit. Sometimes, he will go to the opposite end of the stage and either fall off or sweetspot the ledge. Sometimes, he will complete PKT2 and pop back up on top. If he hits a wall, he pops out of the ground and gets action cancelled. On stages without ledges (Like Flatzone) he will go past the blastzone.

#Jacket Bolt *** or ****: Not really a glitch, but it involves using one, so why not put it here? Now when you equip a jacket, there are a few drawbacks. One, you can’t use any physical attacks since it will cause the jacket to disappear. Two, the hit after you use a jacket will not hurt the person you hit with the jacket. Well, PKT can help us here. With a jacket on, you can try to hit people with PKT while just standing idle. This will lure them into Ness thinking that they can abuse his lag. You want to use this on people who don’t know much about the YYG. Another way to combine PKT and jackets is to swing jump into the foe with a jacket and TS. This will hurt them with the jacket and then with the PKT that is coming out. I recommend this for spike and star jacket, since this could put the KO ability of TJ to waste.

#Crossing Under Battlefield ****: This is a pretty tough trick to do. Ness can actually cross under Battlefield without any help, but it is pretty hard. First, go to the very end of the stage so that Ness teeters off the edge. Jump backwards and fall keep DIing towards the other side. After a small amount of time in the magnifying glass, DJ, and obviously, keep DIing towards the other end of the stage. If you hit your head on a horn, give up. If you didn’t, and you have timed your jumps correctly so far, you should be right under the side of the horn near the other end of the stage. Now PKT2PV along the horn to slope up it. If you had good spacing, you should sweetspot the ledge. This is kind of hard to explain. Lemme get help from the person who discovered it.


#PKT2 Deathline *** or ****: This is a part of the YYG. A deathline is when you set up a trapbox and use some attacks to cause that trapbox to rush towards Ness in the form of the hitbox of the attack he used. To do this, you must first YYG an opponent. Then, rush behind them so that they are in between you and the trapbox. Now use PKT2. They should get hit no matter how far away from you they are if they were in between you and the trapbox.

Use this only on people who know little to nothing about the YYG. Also, you can try to jump off the stage (Be sure to stay in line with the trapbox though) and recover with PKT2. The opponent may try to edgeguard you, so don’t use this on floaters (Like Peach and Jigglypuff) or characters with long distance and quick projectiles that travel straight(Like Samus and Falco). You can try to stall them with PK Fire since you can us it without taking away the deathline.

#Thunder Jacket (#TJ)*** or ****: Another part o the YYG. YYG to set up a trapbox. Now you have to somehow cancel PKT2. You can do this by using any method of stageblasting. As long as PKT2 is cut off early, you have cancelled it correctly. Now you have TJ! While wearing TJ, you can walk into foes to hurt them with PKT2. Also, it blocks certain attacks. Using PKT2, grabbing, or any A attacks gets rid of the Jacket. Also, TJ can only hit a single opponent once, unless you regenerate it.

You should equip Star or Spike jacket to make sure they don’t hit the trapbox and put your TJ to waste. Once you equip Star/Spike jacket, do what you need to do to equip TJ. You can even use PK Fire to stall them again.

Oh yeah, press down B and you can claim Ness has a Shine of his own! XD

Note: You can also get a weak TJ by cancelling PKT2 in the later part, although you should have no reason to do so.

#Thunder Yo-yo **** or *****: Again with the YYG traits! All you have to do to get a Thunder yo-yo is equip TJ and use either yo-yos. Now, the TJ will only hurt them in the earlier part of the yo-yo when Ness takes it out and shoots it. After that, it reverts back to the form of the regular yo-yo hitbox. Also, if you manage to hit with a special yo-yo with the Usmash, you will have set up another trapbox for you to use however you please.

Again, you can use PK Fire to help. Hitting with the yo-yo isn’t easy, so PK Fire them, and follow their DI out of the flames with your special yo-yo.

#Thunder Trap (Dropped Thunder Jacket)***** or *****: The final YYG trait that has to do with PKT. Equip a Thunder Jacket. Then use your yo-yo as you get hit, or as a platform disappears under you. The yo-yo animation must be cancelled while the special hitbox is active. Also, note that not all attacks can go through the Thunder yo-yo. You might want to use Falco’s lasers, Ness’ PKT, Zelda’s Din’s Fire, Link Bombs, or anything else that can go through your Special yo-yo hitbox. There are other ways to get attacks through like having the opponent become immune to the jacket, then attacking Ness. This drops the PKT2 hitbox on the ground like a trapbox. It hurts opponents with PKT2 when they come in contact, and it has more priority than the normal trapbox. Finally, you can use this trapbox like a normal one, so you can deathline or jacket again.

#Shell Shock*****: This here is a PKT challenge. Go to training mode and spawn a red shell. Jump and throw it. Now, make sure it will always be after you, not your opponent. Now when it comes at you, PKTB it. Now it will be behind you. PKTB it again! Repeat until the shell disappears. Cookie to people who succeed.

#Jigglypuff’s BtT as Ness*****: With AR, you can do BtT with characters not designed to do them. For example, you can have DK do Pichu’s BtT. Now, Ness CAN do Jigglypuff’s BtT without getting KOed and without help. It’s insanely hard, and requires good use of the YYG and PKT. Here’s the quickest way I found to do it: First, turn around and jab the target behind you. Then, roll behind the other target next to you with your back near the wall. YYG it and go through the burners. TS and hit the target inside. The TS should get Ness over the burner and shoot him out. DJ and PKT2 deathline to break the last target, and 2 over the wooden bridge. Now Jump up to the target in the top corner and break it with an aerial. Run across the logs, avoiding barriers, and when you reach the last platform, WD to teeter off. Now SH, tipper fair, DJ, fair, and PKT the last one.

Here's a video link of me doing it as fast as I can:

.................................................................Click me!

#PKT and AR Moveswap: Not really a PKT in game glitch, but just a little note. With the moveswap code, sometimes swapping characters moves to Ness’ moves will result in PKT being all screwed up. Sometimes, casting PKT will cause the character look like they are doing the incantation, but no PKT will come out, they will freeze in air, and will not be able to move until they are hit. Sometimes, it even leads to an instant PKT2. Check here for the moveswap codes:Action Replay Central


OMG. Ness is top tier

#Videos

#Simna ibn Sind's Guide to PK Thunder Volume 1: This is the very first PK Thunder video guide made by Simna. It has a few clips of the YYG near the end.

#Simna ibn Sind's Guide to PK Thunder Volume 2: This is the second part of Simna’s PK Thunder video guides. It also includes YYG stuff, which by the way are more advanced in this vid than the last.

#PK Thunder Jibaku: A short clip that Phanna made showing that shows what it is called when Ness hits himself with PKT with proof.

#Ness's Moves - History Behind Super Smash Bros. Melee: This video shows the history behind some of Ness’ moves in Super Smash Bros. Melee, including PKT.

#BtT Mismatch-Ness on Jigglypuff: Here it is again just incase you missed it in the tricks and glitches section.

#PK Thunder Blunder: A video guide for a very weird PK Thunder glitch in Super Smash Brothers 64.

#SSB64 Link and Ness Team Combo: A very impressive team combo with Link and Ness ending with PKT2!

#Mugen Match: Ness Vs. Paula: The Mugen Match of the time! Ness and Paula both usse PKT in this video. Not really PKT related, but really fun to watch.

#FAQ

Q: Does PKT hurt Ness?
A: NO! My God this is such an annoying question. Isn’t it obvious? Never, I mean NEVER ask this question ever again.


Q: I need help doing __________!
A: Try checking out Simna’s video guides. If you still can’t do it, all I can say is reread the description, look at the tips and reccomendations, and practice more.

Q: Can I tailwhip ________?
A: You can tailwhip anything that moves. You just have to turn PKT as it approaches the bolt.

Q: Can you tech PKT2?
A: Unfortunatley no. It would be awesome if you could though!

Q: In a difficulty ranking you have *** or ****. What do two difficulty rankings mean?
A: It means that they can be either one depending on the situation. Like a SAM may be easier with platforms, but harder without them.

Q: I don’t understand a part of the YYG…
A: Refer to Reik’s FAQ stickied in the Ness forums.

……………………………………………………………………Click me!

Q: Can I add something to this guide?
A: Sure. See Final Words.

#Final Words

Well, that’s just about it for this guide. I hope this was helpful. Try incorporating more andvanced PKT moves into your game. If you have questions, or anything that you would like to add, you can post it in the topic and we can talk about it. Take Ness to the next level. Ness FTW! Ness for TOP TIER!

#Credits

My parents: Without them, I wouldn’t be here >_> They also bought me my Gamecube and Smash. You wouldn’t expect me to buy it with my own money now do you?
#Simna ibn Sind: For making the first version of this guide (duh). Also for allowing me to update this guide for him (Does that deserve credit?).
#Vilness: For the floorblasts, crossing under Battlefield trick, and for convincing Simna to write the first version of this guide.
#Dan Smith: For the flex kicks and also convincing Simna to write the original guide. Also for Derflecting.
#NESSBOUNDER: For the Thunder Jacket pic and proving that PKT differs with different versions. Also for the TSS and PKTAFO.
#Everyone in the credits of Simna ibn Sind’s Guide to PK Thunder vids
#Arrowhead: For critiquing my guide. Told me to make the drawing more accurate and remove repeated material.
#Annoying1359: For being one of the strongest PKT supporters to ever be.

and
...
...
...
ME!
#Earthbound360: For updating this marvelous guide.


































Well what do you expect there to be after the credits? The guide’s done! Now go use PKT or something.

dont go yet! charactrer matchups are a few post down!
 

Simna ibn Sind

THIS IS unMODNESS!
GRimer
Joined
Apr 20, 2002
Messages
4,534
Location
1108 R St. Sacramento, CA 95811
3DS FC
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NNID
Simna_ibn_Sind
#4
OnYourMark said:
::please do not use the contents of this post without permission from the author::

*The Yoyo Glitch (YYG) ---

I. A Meager Introduction
II. Hitboxes and Trapboxes --- What are they?
-- a. How to Set up a Trapbox
-- b. What NOT to Do
III. Trapbox Options ---
-- a. The Deathline
-- b. Jackets-
---- 1. The Spike Jacket
---- 2. The Star Jacket
---- 3. The Thunder Jacket
-- c. Dropped Jackets --- Jacket Trapbox
-- d. Notes
IV. Ghost Hits
V. Usage of Terms
VI. Final Thoughts*


*I- A Meager Introduction- *
Perhaps the most complicated glitch in Super Smash Bros. Melee, the simplest way to execute the Yoyo Glitch involves using Ness's Up+Smash (his yoyo) on another character in order to drop one of Ness's hitboxes. Though Ness can set up the Yoyo Glitch on any character, I will refer to the other character as Mario.


*II- Hitboxes and Trapboxes --- What are they?-*
- A hitbox is a very important part in the mechanics of Super Smash Bros. Melee. When you use an attack, a hitbox is the thing which causes both knockback and damage to the other character. Some characters have attacks that have more than one hitbox present at a given time, and some attacks might have only one hitbox.
- A trapbox is a term used to describe one of Ness's dropped hitboxes. When another character walks into the trapbox, he/she will flinch and receive some damage (just as if he/she was hit by a weaker yoyo).

II a. How to Set up a Trapbox-
Stand almost a yoyo away from Mario. Use the Up+Smash on Mario (and if Ness was at the proper distance from Mario, Mario should have popped up to a considerable height), and keep charging it until Ness flashes yellow once; then release the yoyo. The yoyo should have hit Mario only once. If everything was spaced and timed properly, a hitbox will drop on the ground. Usually, the trapbox will be found on the area of the floor just in front of Ness's feet.
Having the proper distance and timing can be tricky, so practice!

II b. What NOT to Do-
After setting up a trapbox, do not use any A attacks, do not use a grab, and do not use a PKT2. Don't worry though, you won't have to abstain for very long ^_^ If Ness uses these above mentioned attacks, the trapbox will come to him and will no longer be on the floor as a trapbox (therefore ruining the purpose of the Yoyo Glitch). But what next? Ness has several options that he can execute to manipulate the trapbox, which I will define below.


*III. Trapbox Options ---*
What next? After setting up a trapbox, Ness has several options that he can execute to manipulate the trapbox, which I will define below.

III a. The Deathline-
Position Ness so that Mario is between Ness and the trapbox. If Ness uses any A button attack, or a PKT2, the trapbox will fly to meet him and will hit Mario. This line between the trapbox and Ness is called the "deathline." If Mario is in the deathline, Ness can also grab him from across the stage. Note: If there is more than one character in the deathline, Ness's attack will hit all of them, but the grab will only grab the character closest to him.

III b. Jackets-
Ness can equip his dair, uair, or PKT2 to his body. While a trapbox is out, if Ness cancels any of these attacks while their hitbox is present, they will become attached to his body. When Ness has a Jacket on, the attack that is equipped will hit a character who touches him. Jackets are invisible. Below, you can see how to equip a Jacket.
III b 1. The Spike Jacket--- To equip Ness's dair to his body, short hop and then dair.
III b 2. The Star Jacket--- To equip Ness's uair to his body, DjC'ed uair and then fast fall.
III b 3. The Thunder Jacket--- To equip Ness's PKT2 to his body, have Ness execute an aerial floorblast; or PKT2 into an edge grab (the edge grab must cut his PKT2 short in distance).

III c. Dropped Jackets --- Jacket Trapbox-
This technique is easiest to do with the aid of Falco's lasers. When Ness has a Jacket equipped, have Falco fire a laser at Ness. Right before Ness gets hit, have Ness do an U+Smash or D+Smash. If Ness's smash was timed correctly, the Jacket will fall on the ground and if another character walks into it, it will damage give knockback like the equipped Jacket (but other than that, it will act like a normal trapbox, ready for Ness to once again execute one of the Trapbox Options).

III d. Notes-
- A good way to confirm that you have a Jacket is to (in Training Mode) summon an item, like a Mr. Saturn, and if it gets knocked away then you have successfully equipped a Jacket!
- A Jacket can block projectiles (though not all projectiles; some stronger ones will break through the Jackets). The Thunder Jacket offers the best protection from projectiles; and a Star/Spike Jacket will only block one projectile.
- Ness can equip a Jacket and then exchange it for another Jacket.
- If Ness equips a Thunder Jacket and uses it on another character, Ness will endure all projectiles, and Fox/Falco Illusions, unaffected. This only lasts until Ness uses his ghost hit (See IV). However, if Ness equips a Star/Spike Jacket and uses it, then Ness will endure only one projectile, and a Fox/Falco Illusion, unaffected.
- If you have a Jacket equipped and you use an U+Smash on an enemy (if you hit the enemy while the yoyo is creeping forward), the yoyo will take on the characteristics of the Jacket; and if you release the yoyo before it charges for too long, another YYG trapbox will be set.


*IV. Ghost Hits- *
When another character steps on a trapbox, or when Ness uses his Jacket on someone, his next attack will be a ghost hit. A ghost hit is: An attack that appears to be a normal attack, but it gives no damage and gives no knockback.


*V. Usage of Terms-*
Here are some Smash terms that I have used in this guide (just in case you are not familiar with them):
Aerial Floorblast: When Ness is in the air and uses his PKT2 and blasts perpendicular into a solid floor.
Dair: Down+Aerial.
DjC: Double-jump Cancel. When Ness (and some other characters) jumps and then uses his second jump immediately afterwards.
Deathline: The line between the trapbox and Ness
Hitbox: The thing which causes both knockback and damage to the other character when you use an attack.
Jacket: A dair, uair, or PKT2 attached to Ness's body.
PKT2: When Ness hits himself with his PK Thunder (Up+B) to propel him forward. This causes considerable amounts damage and knockback.
Trapbox: A term used to describe one of Ness's dropped hitboxes.
Uair: Up+Aerial.


*VI. Final Thoughts-*
The Yoyo Glitch is difficult to set up in a match (which perhaps is a reason why it is not yet banned in tournaments). While playing on a team, with Friendly Fire on of course, it may be a bit easier. On a final note, the Glitch is very complex, and all about it is still not known. More is still being discovered and many things are still mysteries. Also, please let me know if there is anything I can fix (and tell me if you see a mistake that I overlooked!). I also plan to update this once in a while, seeing how I missed some things and because more is being discovered about the Yoyo Glitch every day (well, not quite that often, but I hope you get my point ^_^) Thank you -OnYourMark Itsumo

I'll help by reserving this post cause I know more room will be needed and having two ppl able to edit is a good thing.
 

Wave⁂

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
11,871
#9
THANKS FOR MAKING A VIDEO ARCHIVE, ADEMISK!!! ALL VIDEOS FOUND BY ADEMISK, ALL COMMENTARY WRITTEN BY ADEMISK, BUT vB CODE EDITING BE ME.​
Added some stuff by me.
Actually, I think I'll just merge my non-existent scrambled idea with this. Yep. Actually, I'll just copy off of Ademisk... no copy/paste, but you still get credit.

Okay, I'm going to try to put up a collection of Ness videos here because..well, nobody else has, I can't even find videos in the Video archive.

I thought this would be best to put in the Ness Specific area rather than the Video one. If there's a video up here and either of the people in it don't want it to be put in this thread just PM me or post below and I'll take it down.

Also, I didn't see anything against this in the rules, but if the mods or admins want me to take it down just PM me or.....I guess take it down yourselves, you're powerful, you can do that.

In addition, if anyone especially skilled with Ness can comment on a video, PM me or post below and I'll add it to this first post under the video in question. If the video already has comments, I'll put the ones I find best organized. If someone doesn't want their comments here, simply PM me or post below and I'll take it down.


Simna Ibn Sind: (PK Thunder guides are in Earthbound360's guide)

Simna(Ness) vs. Meep(Luigi) R1
Simna(Ness) vs. Meep(Luigi) R2
Simna(Ness) vs. Meep(Luigi) R3
Simna(Ness) vs. Meep(Luigi) R4

Simna(Ness) vs. Gimpyfish(Bowser)

Simna(Ness) vs. Ender(Fox) on FD
Simna(Ness) vs. Ender(Fox) on PS

Simna(Ness) vs. Tang(Shiek) R1

Simna(Ness) vs. Tang(Fox) R3

Simna(Ness) vs. Geo(Fox) 1
Simna(Ness) vs. Geo(Fox) 2

Simna(Ness) vs. Kev$(Luigi)


Bluchu:

Bluchu(Ness) vs. SSBM Dave(Falco)


Mow:

Mow(Ness) vs. Scar(Falcon)



Nessby:

Nessby(Ness) vs. Fumi(Yoshi) on FD
Nessby(Ness) vs. Fumi(Yoshi) on FD2


TheSage:

thesage(Ness) vs. tha l@wl(Luigi) R1
thesage(Ness) vs. tha l@wl(Luigi) R2

thesage(Ness) VS Wuss(Falco) R1 -
thesage(Ness) vs. Wuss(Falco) R1 Part 1

thesage(Ness) vs. Wuss(Falco) R1 Part 2

thesage(Ness) vs. Wuss(Falco) R2
thesage(Ness) Vs Wuss(Falco) R3
thesage(Ness) VS Wuss(Falco)

MUGG:

MUGG(Ness) vs. Lexxil(C. Falcon)
MUGG(Ness) vs. Lexxil(G&W)
MUGG(Ness) vs. Yomedrath(Doc)


Mofo:

Mofo(Ness) vs. PC Chris(Doc)
Mofo(Ness) vs. Cort(Yoshi)


Emmy:

Emmy(Ness) vs. Adat(Doc)
Emmy(Ness) vs. Adat(Doc) 2
Emmy(Ness) vs. Adat(Marth)
Emmy(Ness) vs. Adat(Fox)

Emmy(Ness) vs. Tichinde(C. Falcon)
Emmy(Ness) vs. Tichinde(Marth)
Emmy(Ness) vs. Tichinde(Falco)
Emmy(Ness) vs. Tichinde(Fox)
Emmy(Ness) vs. Tichinde(IC)

Emmy(Ness) vs. Kais(Falco)

Emmy(Red Ness) & Tichinde(Red Marth) vs. Adat(Green Marth) & Sord(Green Ness)


Reik:

Ryoko(Zelda) vs. Reik (Ness) R1
Ryoko(Zelda) vs. Reik (Ness) R2


AngryLobster:

AngryLobster (Ness) vs. Uuaa (Fox) 1

AngryLobster (Ness) vs. Uuaa (Fox) 2

QueenDVS(Marth) vs. Angry Lobster(Ness) R1
QueenDVS(Marth) vs. Angry Lobster(Ness) R2
QueenDVS(Marth) vs. Angry Lobster(Ness) R3

RockCrock(DK) vs. Angry Lobster(Ness) R1
RockCrock(DK) vs. Angry Lobster(Ness) R2

Angry Lobster (Ness) VS Linguini (Pikachu) R1
Angry Lobster(Ness) VS Linguini(Pikachu) R2


thabettaplaya (TBP):
TBP (Ness) vs. RIP (Jigglypuff)
TBP (Ness) vs. RIP (Jigglypuff) 2
TBP (Ness) vs. RIP (Jigglypuff) 3
TBP (Ness) vs. RIP (Jigglypuff) 4
TBP (Ness) vs. RIP (Jigglypuff) 5
TBP (Ness) vs. RIP (Jigglypuff) 6


Dogy Samich:
Dogy (Ness) vs. Laijin(Mewtwo)


TehSandMan:

Sandman (Ness) vs. Brahma (Doc)

Sandman (Ness) vs. Brahma (Kirby)


Toasty:
Toasty (Ness) vs. Cyrain (Marth)

Toasty (Ness) vs. BlackHeartLee (Marth)


N.OW:
N.ow (Ness) vs. Marx (Fox) 1
N.ow (Ness) vs. Marx (Fox) 2

N.ow (Ness) vs. Energheizer (Marth)

N.ow (Ness) vs. Energheizer (Ganondorf) R1
N.ow (Ness) vs. Energheizer (Ganondorf) R2
N.ow (Ness) vs. Energheizer (Ganondorf) R3


Bubbleman:

Bubbleman (Ness) vs. Aeon (Roy)
Bubbleman (Ness) vs. Aeon (Marth)
Bubbleman (Ness) vs. Aeon (Falco)


dan_smith:

Dokkoise (Marth) vs. Dan Smith (Ness)


Teams:

INNsomnia 3 - Team Finals 01: JCPwn(Marth) & PwnZone(Ness) vs. Mike G(Peach) & Bluchu(Ness)
INNsomnia 3 - Team Finals 02: Mike G(Peach) & Bluchu(Ness) vs. JCPwn(Marth) & PwnZone(Ness)
INNsomnia 3 - Team Finals 03: JCPwn(Marth) & PwnZone(Ness) vs. Mike G(Peach) & Bluchu(Ness)
INNsomnia 3 - Team Finals 04: Mike G(Peach) & Bluchu(Ness) vs. JCPwn(Marth) & PwnZone(Ness)
INNsomnia 3 - Team Finals 05: JCPwn(Fox) & PwnZone(Ness) vs. Mike G(Peach) & Bluchu(Ness)



Ness Dittos:

Captain Jack vs. Brown Mario R1
Captain Jack vs. Brown Mario R2
Captain Jack vs. Brown Mario R3



Misc. Ness videos:

Ness "Break the Targets" in 13.28 seconds

Nessgeguard by Vilness: A Ness edgeguarding combo video

SickNess by Vilness: A Ness combo video
Yoyo glitch hitbox example
Ness VS Falco uair combo video


This is all I have for now, please PM me, or post below, with more videos, so we can really see Ness's true ability. Also, comments on videos are greatly appreciated, watching a video is useless unless you know what they did right and what they did wrong.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Simna(YLink) vs. ender(Kirby)FD
Really funny. I think Simna was trying to DjC.

Other:

Earthbound360:
BtT Mismatch-Ness on Jigglypuff

CrappyCaptureDevice:
Ness's Moves - History Behind Super Smash Bros. Melee

SuperDoodleMan:
The Last Tier War
Ness is kinda in the video....

You can download Simna's Videos here. There are 8 videos of him against Ender on many stages in January_10Ness. There is also the download for Simna ibn Sind's Guide to PK Thunder Part 2 there. I dunno where part one is, though.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,776
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
#10
Character Strategies + Matchups

{{CHMU}}

Ness' Character Specific Strategies and Matchups

Contents:

This section of the guide is obviously going to talk about Ness' matchups. Before reading this section, I highly suggest you read the section about general Ness tips and info.

Format:

Name of Character, Rating out of *****

My Opinion:

This is my personal opinion on the matchup. Some of these sections are old and outdated. Don't worry, I'll write some up soon!

Strategies from other people:

This is where I put helpful character specific strategies I found on the boards. If you think you know a useful tidbit of information about a certain character or would like to write your own character strategy guide, feel free to post it or pm it to me (as long as you bring my attention to it) and if it's good enough I'll put it here.

Videos:

This is where I put videos that I deem are helpful to teach the reader about a matchup. I'll be cleaning up this section first (cause a picture is worth a thousand words so a movie is a billion or so...). No more than four movies per matchup unless it's a tournament set. There can be two tourney set vids for the same character. I will disregard this rule if the video is good enough to be put in (not like mofo will make any vids soon...). I'll put the date is was posted and some comments about the movie as well. If you really want to put a movie in, pm me the link and I'll see if it's good enough. My vids probably aren't good enough so if you see any of mine that's just because they're no better ones...:

At the end of the character matchup section there's a little section of vids devoted to Ness dittos. These are the few noteworthy vids of this rare and elusive matchup.

__________________________________________


After that section there's Reik's guide to chaingrabbing spacies (a modified version can be done to other characters too btw). This is really important as it let's Ness get a KO everytime he grabs a space animal.

More ways you can contribute:

If you think that your views on the difficulty of a cetain matchup differs greatly than mine pm me or post it in this thread and I'll put it up here.

Aaaaaaaanyways, let's get on to the actual guide, shall we?

Ness' Character Matchups and Character Specific Strategies:

Peach *****

My opinion:

The turnip master, the *****, these are just of the few (lame) names my friends have called her since I started using her. Never, ever, use your d-tilt/ d-smash (like you would ever use that anyways) against her since her she will crouch cancel counter into a d-smash. Since your probably are still holding down you will take quite a lot of damage. If you're carful enough you can sorta try to do d-tils out of Peach's range to try to bait a d-smash, but you have to be reallly careful.

Peach has a lot of options against you when you're recovering. She can throw turnips at you and if she hits your Pk thunderball then they'll cancel out. It's not a good idea for Peach to go off the stage and eat your pkt, but if she does, try to manuerver the pkt to not hit her. Reverse PKt helps a lot because a lot of people don't expect it. If Peach tries to edgeguard with her d-smash tech-jump it.

Getting around those turnips are hard, but not impossible. Yes Peach's turnips cause a lot of openings for her and limit your moves somewhat, they are not the reason (and shouldn't be) why this matchup is so hard for Ness. Weave around the turnips; Catch them; powershield them; or just move out of they way and Peach's turnips shouldn't bother you.

Ness cannot edgeguard a good Peach effectively. The best you can do is pkt her when she's off the stage. When she starts getting close though, stop doing pkt and try to bait her into an arial and punish her for the lag.

Fair is really helpful in this matchup. It outranges all of Peach's disjointed arials. Do retreating fair, approach with fair (not all the time though), follow DI with fair. Fair is Ness' main tool in this matchup.

Suggestions from other people:

(This is a guide from Vilness explaining how to fight Ness with Peach)The thing that if you happen to succeed disrupting Ness 2nd jump he’s pretty much screwed. Usually Ness can dig easy for openings and DjC something and punish... against Peach... She has sick priority in her aerials against Ness and can even succeed (though against a good Ness it isn’t easy) floating away from their aerial attempt, and float back and punish... And then the floatcanceling! You can’t DjC their whiffed aerial attempt. except like a dair or like I sometimes do (I forgot to do it against you even though it actually works against Peach pretty good :D ) is a Swingjump over enemy fair. this way you can’t get shield grabbed cuz yer on the other side. and you usually can’t sidestep the fair. This is nothing to rely on but works better against chars with high traction. and even then it’s risky.

I haven’t learned this yet, but Ness is pretty good using turnips, you should read Nessbounder's guide cuz he knows it better than me.

Ness has still his short hop auto canceled aerials and if Ness gets one against aerial Peach you might expect to get at least another since despite the Sickness of Peach Nair it still loses range competition against Ness.

You should watch you whiffed aerials higher from ground because you might eat an uair or PK thunder, which actually works somewhat well against Peach. but that really isn’t an problem.

As for speed. kinda like float cancels, Ness has his foot cancel. If you see Ness landing somewhere near you with dair you shouldn’t go after him unless you are sure you can punish. You might eat some aerials if you try to punish an aerial that has no-lag (you played against Peach, right )

There’s more to this match up I’m sure. but if you want to get overconfident just wait till Mow posts his 2 line tips, which tell you how you can win against a ness 99% of time.

Btw. Pk fire shouldn’t work against Peach (at least the lvl 9´s) since you can just DI towards Ness and Nair... or even worse, if Peach floats over a whiffed fire O_o . Maybe then If Ness Wd away and fires to get the optimal range. but nothing to rely on.

Oh one thing. Don’t use Fsmash against Ness. you probably have always have better options because Fsmash has lag and Ness likes punishing slow moves.

And watch out the Bair!

This is the last match up for Ness where he will fall in love wit his Fair if he already hasn’t.


Videos:

Toasty(Ness) VS Doll(Peach) ~Not a serious match but still cool~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHBgJxsKA8Q

Sheik *****

My Opinion:

Sheik's tilts destroy Ness (Luckily for you Ness is bottom tier so most people don't know that), especially her f-tilt. They can effectively block ALL of Ness' approaches. Unfortunately you're forced to approach because of her needles. You can try to aggravate her and force her to approach you by dodging her needles. Use a needle on the to yygt. Sheik can edgeguard you with her bair pretty good too. She can kill Ness on all sides too... Unfortunately, there's not much Ness can do to counter Shiek, but he can give Shiek some problems. Shiek can chaingrab Ness to the 20's or 30's, at that point you want to DI up and towards Sheik (that way the worst she can do to you is a uair). Unlike most other low tiers, Shiek's grab game doesn't **** Ness, her needles and tilts do though.

Uair and U-tilt combos destroy Shiek. Unfortunately they're really hard to do. The ultimate edgeguard against Shiek is grabbing the edge. It forces her to land on the stage. Punish her for her landfall special lag and repeat until dead Sheik. If you encounter a tilt spamming Sheik, try baiting the tilt and bat her. MINDGAMES!!!! Gay her whenever you can. If you fighting against a good Shiek who knows tilts **** Ness then you're almost screwed, but you still have a chance. Fair is pretty helpful too and leads to grab combos. Grab combos are really important for this matchup (ex. utrhow-> djC uair -> few utilts -> uair or bair to end combo, thanks Vilness!)

Suggestions from other people:

don't sidestep. crouch everything to bat or grab, always attack 2nd.
~from UmbreonMow


D-tilt whoring is recommended if can get an opening. sheik has pretty high traction and d-tilt is good against her low-knock back moves anyway. watch out CC.ing the dsmash though. D-tilts rack up damage. But try to go for the grab.

Sheik is pretty clumsy in air, use that to your advantage.
oh and PK FLASH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> her recovery if practiced.
~from Vilness


-Beware of the needle off stage (they **** your recovery)
-DjC some Fair to gain space on her
-Wavedash out of shield -> grab is a good combo since you can juggle with her with SHFFLEd Uair
~from CF=)


1. Don't get grabbed.
2. If you do get grabbed, try to mess her CT up with DI until around 40 (not entirely sure about the percentage) ... then don't DI and N-air. Or you could try to double jump and immediately air dodge, but that could leave you open again.
3. VilNess used to say that you can combo Sheik from U-throw, but you can't land the first U-air unless you go pretty high up, and then after she's hit with it she should be able to jump out before you can do anything else. I prefer D-throw unless they know to DI away from it (and they will if they've fought a Ness before).
4. Sheik has terrible range underneath her, so you can juggle her by out prioritizing with U-air, U-tilt, and (sometimes) U-smash with proper timing.
5. Learn how to edge guard her! If she's unable to reach the stage with her double jump, edge hog right before she can get to the edge with the first part of her up B. You'll be invincible during the explosion and she'll be forced to land on the stage or go straight up. Then you can get up normally from the ledge and continue edge guarding.
~from Reik


Videos:

toasty (Ness) vs. J-wu (Shiek) July 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxEsPO3ixcM

Simna ibn Sind (Ness) vs. Tang (Shiek) June 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdLvO5VG8cA

Marth *****

My opinion:

Marth is a major pain. His guide shall go up Next!!!

Suggestions from other people:

Lots of Marths will stay just outside your SH F-air/DJC F-air range and try to dash dance you for a grab. If you can predict they're going to try this, dash attack where you would normally F-air. (It's really hard to dash out of range of the dash attack. ) You'll catch them and pop them up for a DJC U-air (extremely low %'s) or an easy fulljump F-air, DJC U-air. Careful though, because the counter to this is simply shielding.
~from Reik


He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind


I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik


-Run attack is a good setup for any aerial, and it you can fake an aerial for a grab (i.e.: run attack -> DjC -> waveland -> grab)
-Don't try to ALWAYS face him in the air, his Fair really kills
-Dthrow is a good setup for aerials too
-Dair out of shield works wonder if he miss an L-cancel of land near to you after a missed Dair/Fair
~from CF=)


I've been out of the game for a little while, but, I think I could explain how to take on a Marth. It was my biggest problem and therefore became my greatest strength.

Marth has some things on Ness: Range, power, and speed. All of those are kind of important...basically the most important things in the game...BUT, he's not all advantage.

Marth has some weaknesses against Ness also: lag, weight, and recovery. If you utilize these weak spots in his game you'll do alright.

Here is a really stupid trick, which I've done over and over to many Marth players throughout my career...and it always seems to work. Jump over Marth as if you are going to come down upon him with an attack, when you see him begin to slash at you (which he invariably will, all Marth does is slash) simply double jump and then come down hard with a Dair. The fake out seems to have a remarkable success rate and once you pop heavy ol' Marth up you can quickly recover and start chaining together the Fairs and Uairs...and then end the maneuver with either a Nair or a Bair.

Get good at getting close without getting hit, spot dodge a lot, WD in...not too close or you'll get grabbed...but close enough that once he lags you can grab him. Grabbing Marth has tons of potential. Combos, or, throwing him off the edge...which is really the main way you're going to get KOs on Marth: Edge guarding.

That's simple enough though, if he's far...PK Flash for style, but really, PK Fire as he sweet spots and then bat after bat while he's hung up in the inferno. (..or Bair...or Nair...or back throw...etc.)

Marth's not bad; Falco, Sheik, and Peach - they are bad.
~from Dan Smith


Videos:

toasty (Ness) Vs. blackheartlee (Marth) 6/29/07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w117ndWEEdg

toasty (Ness) Vs. blackheartlee (Marth) 7/14/07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK5JxmZqjGs

Dogysamich (Ness) vs Yang (Marth) 6/29/07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfn40kczr4

Fox ****

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

He isn't as easy to dtilt as cf and dorf since he can tech. What you can do is knock him off the stage and bair them into it. Though bair is easier to tech, the tech timing on a sweetspotted bair and a nonsweetspotted bair are very very different, messing up their timing.
~from Simna ibn Sind


For Fox, you can start a combo on him at low % best with an uthrow. Uthrow to DCed uair or fair if they DI. If they dont, follow up with any aerial necessary. You can land uthrows by DjCing fair or dair.If they dont DI, hitting with the last spark in the dash attack can also lead to a grab, or any fast attack. Fox is just about the easiest character to juggle with DjCed uairs and utilts. After almost any combo that leaves Fox near you, you can end with a DjCed nair in place.

For edgeguarding, if Fox is above you, any aerial should just about stop him. This may force him to recover while level to the stage. When he does, you can use the dtilt to stop him right at the edge, or a yo-yo. If you release the yo-yo as he touches it, you will pull him up for an ftilt. If you keep charging it, it will have the same effect as a dtilt. After Fox drops below the edge, you can easily hit him with any edgeguarding aeial.
~from Earthbound 360


Videos:

N.OW (Ness) vs Alexei (Fox) Corneria
http://www.veoh.com/videoDetails.html?v=e151304aXA2cjzR

N.OW(Ness) vs Alexei(Fox) DL64
http://www.veoh.com/videoDetails.html?v=e151260xgFFYNAz


Angrylobster(Ness) vs. Uuaa(Fox) FD 7/19/2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eZuCX_KPIw

Toasty(Ness) vs. Fox(Kitsune King)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3fx4pSlNVc

Falco ****

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Zeke your friend sucks. Money match me $1000 OMGWTF?!?!?! Dave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your friend guaranteed!!!! Any who, I play a weird styled Ness so my advice might sound weird. I don’t have much comp either but **** it I know a thing or two about Nesstard vs. Flacopajaro.

Ness has those groovy up throw combos on Falco. At midish %ages you can up throw him and do a bunch of DJC'd uair until he can DI out of them. I think fsmash and bair are real good for edgeguarding vs. Falco. If your friend tech's an attack try to tech punish him with a DJC'd bair. You can downB SHLa, it has too much lag but it works. :\ Punishing with dair is good cuz it sends seem up and you can follow into some quick DJC'd uairs. Fair has a disjointed hit box and good range so use that to attack and be safe, just don’t spam it "a la Simna" LOL (sorry Simba_bin_Laden :p)

Nair is REALLY quick when DJC'd, I use it to break up the opponents combos quite often. If your friend upBs or sideBs onto the stage, try to grab him facing away from the edge so that you can back throw him. A good back throw vs. a high %age Falco = dead bird, Falco's recovery sucks so he wont come back. :p A fsmashing Falco? LOL Don’t tell me you can evade those? jk Evade. Punish. Death2Falco. I’m not sure if fair goes through Falcos fsmash, if it does use it. If Falco shields try to grab him, personally I like to DJC uairs cuz they **** up shields and hitting with that attack feels so cool! :p

There’s my 2 cents. Again my Ness is weird so if you want advice from a "non-weird" Ness player, wait for a post by Simna, Vilness, or some other guy who’s good with Ness who’s name I cant remember.
~UmbreonMow



-Have fun meteoring him when he comes back
-Shield a lot since he will pillar you to death
-Uthrow and juggle with SHFFLEd Uair
-Abuse the back throw when you can since his recovery is bad
~from CF=)


Videos:

Emmy (Ness) vs. Tichinde (Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpe124W-FQ

Dave (Falco) vs. Bluchu (Ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xezxHVYBIp8


Captain Falcon ****

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

I think CF has a slight advantage on larger stages like FD (yes, even though it's easier to combo him there), normal Stadium, and DL64 while Ness has a slight advantage on the smaller ones (Battlefield, FoD). His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt. ) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik


Videos:

AngryLobster(Ness) vs GAwes (Captain Falcon) match 1 partial
http://youtube.com/watch?v=io5YGk4N84Q

AngryLobster(Ness) vs GAwes (Captain Falcon) match 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=glqw_eS-_EM

AngryLobster(Ness) vs GAwes (Captain Falcon) match 3
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0BE9KKvHJZo


Jigglypuff ****

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Watch out! She can eat your thunder! Try to tailwhip her while recovering and hit yourself back onto the stage. This is, of course, extremely hard. Jigglypuff also is really good at edgegaurding.
~from basically everybody on this forum


You can yyg a jigglypuff that missed her rest. Pk flash works too but you don't have enough time to fully charge it. If you start it right after she misses, then you should be able to hit once she starts waking up.
~from thesage


yea Ness vs. Jiggz is so weird. After like 30% all you have to do is DJC shove and you get a free move: grab, bat, another shove, DJC head but or back kick. Yes, DJC fair to DJC bair actually works. And you can do it any time after 30, straight up till 110% where the back kick can usually KO. If they DI up you can head butt instead, and if they grab you can do DJC shove to grab with 2 sparks and it can't be blocked or sidestepped.

If you want to look cool, do DJC bair 2x, DJC fair there's you're 30%. You can take jiggs to death if they don't know what to do, but you have to be fast.
~from UmbreonMow


Ice Climbers ****

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Not only can u PK Fire at ICs but you can also start the fire on their ICE.
~from Simna ibn Sind


If you Pk Fire them Popo can DI out of it, but Nana won't. This will force Popo to save Nana. Take advantage of this.
~ from Delphiki


Videos:

Mr. Game and Watch ****

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Luigi ***

My Opinion:

Blegh, watch out for Fair, Usmash, Dsmash. That's all he's got. And his WD'ing is annoying.

Suggestions from other people:

Alright, so luigi is a real crazy one for all nesses of the world. First of all, notice the way that luigi walks, attacks, and even taunts. Its extremely fluid, and he has some very quick actions that take a while to get back into to position. It's interesting to pair such a floaty character like ness with luigi, because they are extremely contrasting.

I'll first consentrate on the attacks of luigi. I've noticed that the real ness killer is luigi's fair, the chop. Luigi's arm and hit box shoot out amazingly fast, which is what makes it difficult. The only attack while ness is in the air that can cope with that is nesses nair, but its hitbox is way more condensed then luigi's hitbox. Luigi almost always hits with this attack. Luigis second attack that is weird to get used to is his usmash. It seems simple enough, but it is difficult because luigi has the ability to continue sliding while he is attacking. This makes the timing to counter the attack very difficult. The majority of luigi's other attacks are simple to avoid when you need to. You should never be hit with luigi's dash attack with ness, its amazingly simple to avoid.

With any disadvantages against luigi, there are also some advantages. The easiest one to see is luigi's funky recovery. With pk thunder to pull them down and then the a jump off the edge to a neutral air or even a spike can help. Once he is out far enough, there is almost no way for him to het back. Of course, you can absorb luigi's fireballs when ever you have the chance.

For free for all battles with a luigi involved, not too much focus needs to be on the luigi, but perhaps on finding where he will be at any time. You see, luigi's playing style varies largely on how the luigi is playing, wheather he is offensive or defensive at the time. In a free for all, luigi's style dramaticly increases to just a melee to anyone near him. This can give a simple but large advantage to a ness, who can focus easily on luigi.
~KrulNess


Videos:

Vilness (Ness) vs. Masa (Luigi) Jun 5, 2006
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=532507286828164819&q=Vilness&hl=en


Samus ***

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

I don't think Samus is terribly difficult. She's such an odd character that making a valid comparison to other characters isn't subjective enough. You just have to be on your toes [like when going against a Jigglypuff, though I'll admit Jiggs makes you pay a lot more attention, like "sit on the edge of your seat and don't blink" kind of attention]...if they're good at missile spamming, either full jump backward or duck the high ones/mid ones, if they ground-cancel you can forward tilt them I believe [don't use the Bat to reflect because if they're missile spamming, that ground missile will definitely have a higher missile coming right behind it, and the lag from the bat will definitely make you eat one in the face, which can KO at high % =/...same goes for rolling. don't.] if you think there's enough space between the two oncoming missiles you can sidestep both of them, but be careful, missile spamming is usually a diversion while Samus slowly creeps closer, or throws in a Super-WD-->F/Dsmash/Charge-shot and sidestep/sidedodge [w/e you wanna call it] makes you pretty vulnerable to these after the dodge.

...if you can maneuver around those missile [or just up-forward and forward tilt them as you approach her] and get close...start dash dancing or do something on the ground, whatever mindgame you like, to make her defend against a ground attack with a bomb jump. If you DON'T see her DI after the first bomb and she seems to be descending for a second [unfortunately not many great Samuses...Sami? anyway, not many of them will bomb jump without their own DI mindgame], punish her with a PK fire to her bombs [as Simna has said before and Sage included...I know, but more specifcs on this since it can lead to great things] If you DO see her start to DI, and you're pretty much right in front of her, expect a Dair from Samus...but what I've learned is that Ness's utilt can beat Samus's dair! especially because a bomb jump doesn't typically give her enough height to hit you with the sweet spot of the dair [which can either outprioritize your tilt or trade blows with it...in which case you're screwed unless you crouch-tech because Samus is so quick with recovering from stun you'll be popped up right into a nair/bair...which are both bad news for Ness]

sound a bit risky? well depending on the Samus you go against [I say this because I haven't played recently enough against extremely skilled Samus players to try this enough times to see if it's dependable] you could try keeping a little more space between the two of you as you approach and begin your mindgames, then you jump to do a PKfire, as Samus burns [btw, jumping for the PKF increases your chances of Samus getting caught in the flaming pillar] , she'll typically DI away and down, which is perfect for what you want to follow up with: full-WD-->Bat. if she's a lil far away, start to dash and immediately do a full-WD->Bat. If she DI'ed away but not down, do the same moves to get you there but follow with a SH/DJC bair [might send her into the pillar of flames again for another hit if you're fast enough...don't bank on that though]

haha if you want to be flashy, DJC-uair the higher missiles =D
Don't try to PK Fire Charge Shots unless you're in the air jumping missles, putting you in a position, as far as Samus is concerned, vulnerable to the charge shot...the key here is prediction [and also make sure that if you fail, don't try this more than a couple times, otherwise she'll predict you instead and wait for the PK fire and then punish your lag with a shot] so don't wait to see the charge shot before you PK Fire because the move is too slow to react to a charge shot in time.

Don't try TOO many PKT juggles...once she's come down to the point where a PKT hit doesn't send her off the top of the screen [not to her death, just out of visible range], try doing a full-jump, DJ if you're feelin saucy, and then fake em out with a "insert name from the super guide of guiding PKT toward them and then away(but toward you) so that they'll instinctively want to punish your floating body...that will then soon be struck by your redirected PKT"-->death to Samus. =D or aim it at them if it doesn't look like you can strike yourself in time or at the right angle

I've played a ton against medium to pretty-good Samus players [but as I said, a long time has passed since I played a sick one] and these kinds of things tend to work against them.
also, perfect block/tilt a missile as early in the game as possible, it may keep them from spamming it as much.

If she's shielding, don't get too close or she'll upB out of shield which = bad times for Ness.
only try side-dodging grabs if you're really close to her. If not, the end of the grapple can still latch on to you once you're done dodging. And as with Link and Y.Link, a missed grab can = YYG!! or a bat if she's KOable or if you don't have the proper spacing
~from Toasty


Camp vs. Samus...it helps(and pk fire is good here too...use it on her bombs)...also if Samus is at middle%s and up(60+) and you knock her straight up into the air.....spend some time jugglign her with PK Thunder...she will have a hard time escaping....not as hard as LUIGI, but still a hard time. Just watch out for her bomb jumps.
~from Simna ibn Sind


Pk Fire outprioritizes Samus' full charge shots
~ from indie_dave


Samus is one of Ness's harder matchups if she isn't an all-out counter. I play against a really good Samus about once a week, so I know how you feel. You may have to completely change your playing style against her. Stupid fast and furious Ness does not work. You want to be far enough back to stay out of her n-air and d-smash range, but no so far back that charging the charge shot or trying to fire a missile will go unpunished.

Um... bomb + shield grab? Could you explain that better? I don't really know what you're talking about, so I'll just give out some general Samus tips.

First of all, I shouldn't have to say this, but don't try to absorb or bat the charge shot. It will never happen, and you'll get punished for it.

If she's trying to keep you at bay with missiles, remember that you can duck under all of them that aren't missile-cancelled very low. Oh, here's something neat: Short hop n-air backwards. This will destroy all of her projectiles except the fully charged charge shot. I don't do this much though because it leaves you open.

Whenever I attack Samus, she's usually doing one of three things.

1. Jumping

If she's in the air, remember that the front of her n-air outranges ALL of your aerials and lasts very long. Even so, while in the air, she seems to be most vulnerable. If you can get behind her while she has an n-air out, you've got her. You might want to try u-airing her from underneath, since she doesn't have as much range there. Her d-air is pretty slow, and she's floaty.
If she's waaayyy above you at decent damage, juggle her MERCILESSLY with PK Thunder. It has much more mobility than Samus in the air. Don't fall for bomb-stalls. By the time she gets back down, a b-air should take her out.

2. Shielding

Samus doesn't shield grab. It's too slow. If you know she's going to, L-cancel an aerial (or auto cancel it) and sidestep at the appropriate time. Or heck, even roll behind her. The lag after that is awful. Rule of thumb once you've got her while she's lagging: If you can kill her with the bat, do so. If you can't, use the opportunity to put on the Thunder Jacket.
Once she catches on to this, she'll usually jump out of her shield into a quick n-air after you hit. Therefore, you want to be behind her. Try short hopping n-air right in her face. If she shields, you'll go through her and you're safe. Predict what she'll do out of the shield and abuse it.
Oh yeah. Learn to dash and jump-cancel your grabs. (Sprint-grabbing) I can't stress this enough. It allows for better comboing and surprises people.

3. Crouch-canceling

Ugh. This gave me so much trouble. The down smash has insane range and it HURTS. While the bat can kill CC, Samus' foot is faster and has just about the same range.
Up to really high percents she can CC your f-air approach and get a free hit on you. So that's out. She can also CC your b-air, but I don't know for how long. Sounds like you're screwed, right? N-air and d-air to the rescue! Samus's d-smash hits slower behind her, so short hopped n-airs are relatively safe. D-air kills CC as well, so full jump auto cancel or DJC auto cancel to put the pressure on her. It's great to land behind her with those too.

I have no ****ing clue how to edge guard Samus. I usually just try to whack her with PK Thunder as many times as possible to make her recover high. If she can't sweet spot with the Up-B, bat her.

Oh, this is crucial. If at all possible, DON'T FIGHT HER ON FINAL DESTINATION. Good God, don't even try it. Pick Yoshi's Story, Field of Dreams, or Corneria.

Whew, long post. But it's important because Samus is such a *****.
~from Reik (old post)


1)Because of how this fight plays out its more a battle vs. the clock than vs. the other player.

2) Know how samus' tilts and smashes work. Use proper spacing and make good use of your shield. Samus can hugely punish you for random aggression. [but that's not to say you should never be agressive. Play smart and be careful]

3) Missiles aren't a hard problem to deal with. When in close quarters with Samus don't be afraid to wavedash backwards to get out of her tilt/smash range.

4) Attack Samus in the air and with aerials out of shield after guarding slower moves of hers. If you arent finding an openning and your shiled is suffering, see part 3.

5) This match will come VERY close to if not reaching a Time Up, so at every chance when you get samus up into the air a decent distance juggle her as many times as you can with PK Thunder to build up damage and stall for time. Stages with triple platform layouts(BF, FoD, YS, and DL64) altho they are common stages that Samus will like to counterpick against you, a Ness can hurt Samus bdl with pk thunder juggles once she is knocked into the air above the top platform. This is done by staying on the main part of the stage(bottom platform) and using the three platforms above as a shield that will hinder samus' ability to get down to where you are...meanwhile, if she lands on a platform on the way down the PK Thunder will be right there to hit as she is getting up thus allowing you to continue hitting her.

6) Stage selection between Ness and Samus is difficult for both of them because in the matchup there are glaring downsides on almost every stage for both characters in this matchup. I say, know the nature of Samus and play where you feel most comfortable.

~from Simna


Videos:

Phanna (Samus) vs. Angrylobster (Ness) match 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2tMv_6Zt4EM

Phanna (Samus) vs. Angrylobster (Ness) match 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fc3hk124XB4

Phanna (Samus) vs. Angrylobster (Ness) match 3
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GOc-RfwlzlU

Phanna (Samus) vs. Angrylobster (Ness) match 4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=n8KFdOP0Lxo

Phanna (Samus) vs. Angrylobster (Ness) match 5
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F1uGlVdwEgg


Link ***

My Opinion:

Link is a character that in the right hands, can be very good. Unforetunately most people who use him end up spamming up-b, silly noobs. He can spam projectiles, has pretty strong attacks, and can kinda combo you. Unfortunately for Link, you can counter-spam projectiles, combo him easily, and edgegaurd him too.

First let's deal with his noob favorite moves, namely his dair and up-b. If you ever see a shielding link, never think that it's a free grab. He can up-b out of sheild. He can also spike you with up-b. You can see this ahead of time if you're recovering and you see link stand really close to the edge, but isn't edgehogging. Unless you sweetspot the edge, he'll use his up-b on you and spike you. If you do get it by it DI up and away. If you shield the beginning part of the move and you let go of the shield, the rest of the up-b won't hit you. This leaves link vulnerable for many many things. If you're quick enough you might get in a yyg.

His dair is also pretty good, dealing a massive amount of damage. He get's more damage if he hits you when he just takes his sword out, so try to get under link. The only time you want to be under him is when he already used his dair and is suffering the major lag that it causes. If you properly (emphasis on properly) space a uair you can hit him and not be hit by the sword. It has an upwards knockback, despite being a dair.

Link can get pretty annoying when he spams projectiles. I like to play a dodge-counter Ness when he does this. When he uses his boomerang jump over it and use the lag he gets from it to approach. When he sees you approaching he'll try to move back to be able to continue spamming projectiles. The boomering, by now should be coming back "to haunt you" as my friend likes to say. Dodge, sheild, jump, do whatever it is you need to do so that it doesn't hit you when it passes you and follow it towards Link. When it comes back to him, he'll have to grab it, leaving him vulnerable. The counter to this strategy is for Link to throw the boomerang off course so it won't come back to him, but can still hit you. Just sheild the bombs so that they bounce off your sheild. If you like pk fire you can try to pk fire them. Say a prayer if he uses his arrow since that is a setup for the YYG (insert angelic singing here). Jump over it when he fires it at you and yyg it. Just hope the link doesn't use another projectile against you. If you don't like the yyg or the arrow landed close to link, pk fire the arrow, starts a pillar and makes it harder for Link to approach you.

If you are out of range of Link's projectiles, you can pk thunder him. If he tries to approach you from far away tailwhip to slow down his approach, or just hit him with the head for some extra damage. If you see him crouching, that means that he is using his sheild (the one on his hand) to block your long range attacks. Hit him from behind with pk thunder if you're long ranging it since he is still vulnerable in the back. Please note that he can just use his regular shield (the bubble thing) if you do this, but it still weakens his sheild, which the Link was trying to avoid in the first place.

Ness can combo link with his uair, just be careful to not get hit by his dair. U-throw him into it and finish it off with a bair. Ness can also use his u-tilt too if the Link is bad at DI. Link is also pretty easy to tailwhip.

Edgegaurding link is pretty easy. If you like to meteor smash then use your dair when he is in the process of up-b'ing. You won't you hit the sword if you hit him properly. If you look, doesn't have to be closely, at Link when he uses his up-b in the air, you will see that the sword swipe is at an angle, with the swordswipe in the direction link is facing a little higher than in the direction Link isn't facing. Try to pop in a metor smash from behind Link for and easy K.O. You can also meteor smash him if he is jumping up from his hookshot grab the wall thing. If he tries to use his bomb jump you have three options: hit the bomb with pk Thunder, hit link with the head of pk thunder, or tailwhip Link to knock him away from the bomb. I prefer tailwhipping Link, but hitting him with pk Thunder sets him up for an edgegaurding combo and hitting the bomb is a near surefire way he won't be able to use it in his recovery. You get style points if you can tailwhip the bomb and hit link with it (if you're good enough tailwhip him then hit him with the head of pk Thunder). There are so many other things that Ness can do to edgegaurd Link, find the way you prefer and stick to it, I haven't mentioned all of them.

When Link tries to edgegaurd you he'll try to hit your pk Thunder with his bombs. Avoid this as this will leave you screwd. If you see a Link that does this then I have a theoretical thing that you can do, dodge so that when you come out of your dodge you'll get hit by his bomb, giving you some vertical height. I never tried this out and just thought of it right now, but I doubt it works. He'll also try to spike you with his up-b or hit you with your dair (yes I've met Links that can edgegaurd with dair and SURVIVE). Sweetspot the edge so you don't get hit with the spike.

Another YYG glitch that you can do with Link is if he misses one of his grabs, he has so much lag that you can yyg 'im. Some Hero Link turned out to be.

Little Hylain boy: Link, our Hero of Time, there is a little boy with psychic powers destroying my village! Help us!!!

Link: *runs away*

Suggestions from other people:

You can fair Link's bombs
~ from indie_dave


It's true that Link has the range and the projectiles in this match, but I think Ness actually deals with spam pretty well. He's fast on the ground, has a good shield-game, and DJCs allow you to manuever around projectiles better than most characters can.

Ness combos the f*ck out of Link, btw. DJC F-air to immediate SH F-air works very well. If you can hit with a DJC U-air at low%s Link will take a LOT of damage. He also might be the easiest character to KO with a DJC F-air -> Bat.

Link can combo Ness decently and absolutely rapes his recovery though, gotta give him that. At least Ness's bat outranges Link's Up + B recovery. You can also use D-tilts to screw up a non-sweetspot hookshot recovery. I'm not sure if a properly timed D-tilt will stop even a sweetspot hookshot.

You can aslo yyg glitch a link that missed his grab.
~from Reik


Videos:

N.OW(Ness) vs Amanda(Link) PokStad
http://www.veoh.com/videoDetails.html?v=e148505fAq5NRnP


Mario ***

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Pikachu ***

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Azen (Ness) vs. ChuDat (Pikachu) (ZOMG Azen vs. Chudat!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E_GDhZqR6Y

SSBM Koda(Pikachu) VS YoKo(Ness) July 7, 2006 (the comments are more helpful than the vid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-lIAxy_UTY&mode=related&search=

Doctor Mario ***

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

I usually try to play edgehog-or-not-edgehog mindgames. If I you get him to Up+B early, it's a free bat or B-air.
~from Reik


Videos:
8
tehSANDMAN (Ness) vs. Brahma (Doctor Mario)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BS1LEu_C4I

SSBM Adat (Doc) vs Emmy (Ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-lIAxy_UTY&mode=related&search=

MoFo(Ness) vs PC Chris(Doc) *this is probably the most helpful video out of every single Ness video here*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPsV-1tZ8BA


Ganondorf ***

My opinion:

What other people have said:

He does better on the smaller stages, but I wouldn't give him the advantage on any. Maybe YS. Maybe. It's really easy to combo Ganon into F-smash from DJC F-air. His recovery is just perfect for D-tilt edgeguarding when he's coming from below. (I started using this because Cape techs EVERYTHING, and you can't tech D-tilt.) After a few D-tilts people get impatient and stop trying to sweetspot. Wait until he is too high to tech and send him on his way.
~from Reik


Videos:

SSBM:Ness(TK) Vs Ganon(Sley)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxYdtsekuP8


DK ***

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

tehSANDMAN(Ness) vs Brahma(DK)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=63597

tehSANDMAN(Ness) vs Brahma(DK) (newer than other one btw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0HACKvXxgc


Young Link ***

My opinion:

What other people have said:

Y. Link is faster than Link so it's a little harder to get through the run-away-and-throw-sh*t tactic. If you play a defensive fulljump-aerial-spammy Ness then you're going to get destroyed. Edgeguarding is almost the same as the Link matchup.

You can aslo yyg glitch a young link that missed his grab.
~from Reik


Videos:

Y. Link (unknown) vs. Ness (unknown) January 30, 2007 (match starts after about a minute)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbd93vrNV-Y

Earthbound360 (Ness) vs. I suck(Y. Link) Nov. 24 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ5umsSL6dg


Pichu **

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Yoshi **

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

SSBM Cort (Yoshi) vs MoFo (Ness) Winter 2002
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBxoKwOy3II

SSBM:Yoshi(Back) Vs Ness(Tk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qHLswzJTiY&mode=related&search=

Greta the Great(Ness) vs. Shiri (Yoshi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdt4HAvbMkI


Zelda **

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Ryoko(Zelda) vs Reik(Ness) match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij_dQfN_aOg

Ryoko(Zelda) vs Reik(Ness) match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDX50M4ZUC0


Kirby *

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

tehSANDMAN (Ness) vs Brahma (Kirby) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCP7ww8kahc

tehSANDMAN (Ness) vs Brahma (Kirby) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U91i61M57MM

Great the Great(Ness) vs. ShadowCrush(Kirby) 2nd part of video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdt4HAvbMkI


Bowser *

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Roy *

My opinion:

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Mewtwo *

My Opinion:

Well I haven't exactly played any good mewtwo players, but I'll doubt anyone will ever encounter one so here I go! If you see Mewtwo spamming his d-tilt djc a bair above his d-tilt range. He won't expect it and get hit by the sweetspot. Pkt juggling is helpful too but he can just teleport away.

Mewtwo player as I'm thunder juggling: You know that's really go.

Me: You know you can just teleport away...?

Mewtwo Player: SHUT UP!!!

His air attacks really shouldn't bother you (as in they shouldn't be able to hit you!), but you should still watch out for nair, bair (outprioritized by your fair), and the occasional well timed fair. Don't use psi magnet on the shadow ball since it's too laggy. If the Mewtwo has a fully charged shadowball approach him by sh to psi magnet. It's slow enough to predict. If your off the edge use psi magnet to safely go under the edge of the stage to recover (very hard to do).

You can edgegaurd him with two options:

1. (If you're under 100% damage) Grab the edge. Get back on the edge the quickest way possible and punish his lag (if you can)

2. (Over 100% damage) Don't grab the edge, you can't back onto the platform fast enough. Wait on the platform and try to use d-tilt or something to prevent him from grabbing the edge (impossible) or something. Bair is helpful to (drop of the edge + bair)

Mewtwo is also pretty easy to combo at lower to mid percents. You can kill him after that, YAY! Mewtwo is EAASY.

Suggestions from other people:

Videos:

Mewtwo(Zone) vs. Ness (I can't make out his name) Really old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtC1xpDpQ3M


Ness dittos:

CJ(Ness) vs Brown Mario(Ness) match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5bCghgTVyc

CJ(Ness) vs Brown Mario(Ness) match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhGu2XEy7i0

CJ(Ness) vs Brown Mario(Ness) match 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkX7KRPJy8A

CJ(Ness) vs Brown Mario(Ness) match 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qAGBp8_FUg

Another CJ(Ness) vs Brown Mario(Ness) match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMyzUrquQUE

black jo(ness) vs Air(ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atS8PnZdVdg


______________________________________________________________


Reik's method for chaingrabbing the space animals (works best on FD):

Ok, here's the hardest part: Get a grab. After that, U-throw.

Low %s - If they DI to either side, you can always catch them with a JC grab. No need to DJC U-air or DJC F-air and give them the opportunity to DI out. Just regrab them.
If they don't DI, be careful. Even at 0% they can jump or shine out with good timing. To be safe you can do a perfect DJC U-air*, then react to DI and dash JC grab.

Mid %s - If they DI to either side you have to dash and do a perfect DJC U-air while moving forward. Meaning you have to be holding forward while you double jump, then move to Up for the U-air. It's like a quarter-circle motion. Don't try to C-stick because that's too slow. After the U-air regrab if you think you can or do more U-airs into a B-air. This ends the combo around 85-95% and sets up for edgeguarding. Keep in mind that it doesn't KO.

Note: If they're near an edge after a DJC U-air and within F-smash range... then by all means... bat 'em.

High %s - You shouldn't be able to regrab them to high percents. However, if you get another grab, just U-throw B-air.

*What I call a perfect DJC U-air is when you start the U-air on one of the first few frames after double jumping, and time it so that you hit the ground immediately after the U-air hits the opponent, WITHOUT fastfalling. In this case at lower %s it helps if you hit the Fox as soon/high as possible, so you have more time to react to the DI.
 

Psi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
47
#11
I've got a pretty good list of ness vids on youtube and google video cuz I got sick of searching for the same ones over and over again. I could try to get a more complete list and use the links as a video archive post.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,776
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
#12
General Ness info:

This is some information I've collected over the past couple of months and I'm putting it up on here for all to see. Eventually I'll change it so it flows better and add some more stuff to it.

From Reik:

The U-smash
1. Juggling with the Back swing
Since the back swing has a disjointed hit box, you can use this as one of the many ways Ness can juggle the enemy. It will usually pop them up above and slightly behind you.
It also has very little knock back, so sometimes out prioritizing an aerial attack can help you land that U-air or B-air KO at high percentages. I can't get it to register as a combo in training mode, but it seems to work for me.

2. Failed YYG Attempt
Sometimes you can't get the YYG to hit correctly. It happens.
After being popped up, I find that a lot of people fall toward you and try to hit you with an aerial. You can sometimes bat them or start a juggle when they try.

3. Pwning the CCers
This is easiest to describe with Samus as an example. After a certain percent (around 40?) Samus can't CC your U-smash without slamming into the ground. I find that after CCing the U-smash, a lot of players use their get-up attack on instinct. With Samus, her get-up attack mostly hits above her, so you should be out of danger and ready get her during lag. Maybe even bat her.

4. Edge guarding?
If you correctly space yourself, you can stop someone from sweet spotting by charging U-smash over the edge. I... uhm... never use this.

Anyone have other uses for this move?

The D-smash

........

It's about as useful as PSI Magnet when fighting Marth.

That whole "you can use it if they land behind you" thing is bull****. It's too laggy, doesn't have enough knock back, and doesn't combo.

(I actually do use PSI Magnet more than D-smash. At least the Ice Climbers can't use un-desynched ice blocks from far away if you use PSI Magnet. It heals 20% and they can't catch you afterward.)


· If you're not stunned, you never have to tech. You can untumble by wiggling, double jump wavelanding, or foot canceling D-air.
· Ness has a very fast, lengthy wavedash when you can do it perfectly. It also has a lot of leftover momentum (like Marth's wavedash). This can be a bad thing if you don't know how to deal with it.

For example: Try perfect wavedashing backward and immediately dashing forward. Ness will be stuck running in place for a second because the extra momentum slows him down.

However, you can fix this with any character by quickly dashing the same way you wavedashed and then immediately dashing the other way. (Wavedash right, dash right, immediately dash left.) Combined with dash dancing, this will make your Ness a lot more mobile.
· Quick DJC N-airs from shield.
From either UmbreonMow or Mofo:
here's a freebie for you 'ness experts' lol. Try DJC spike from shield and up tilt.

Up tilt from shield no lag! woot!
Vilness:

Pk Flash:

it’s great against:
Luigi
Ganon
Marth
Sheik
it’s good against:
Dr. Mario and
Mario (they have down-b stalling and cape to eliminate flash but it still works to guide them and you can fake them into doing cape too early, besides what Mario players have played against Ness anyway?)
Ness himself (good Ness can avoid it with 2nd jump, sometimes even with his upB but it can be hard)
Peach (if you hit her out her 2nd jump or even float, if both the better!)
C-falcon (if you hit him far and high and He’s gonna 2nd jump downB 2nd jump upB then you can use it)
Pikachu and Pichu (they have good recoveries and usually come back but avoiding such a big hit zone may end up being really hard at times)
Roy (like Marth but doe to his falling speed and upB variety it’s harder)
Bowser (he’s as sucker for PK flash too but usually Ness has better options)


and possibly some others.

don´t use PK flash against->
Space animals (just don´t do it, you always have better options)
Jiggs (anyone who hits jiggs with PK flash gets my respect, even if it is the worst jiggs evah )
Kirby (you might succeed but he is almost as hard as jiggs. you have a lot better options against him anyway)
Mewtwo (it ain´t gonna work against any good Mewtwo)

Simna:

well um....I can't very well give you tips for CPs...I don’t really strategize anything vs. them.....one time I was goofing off and I challenged myself to beat 3 lvl 9 Bowsers on a team with team attack off using only PK Flash...but that was just complete stupidity

as for any videos of me u've seen...well...that stuff doesn’t just happen magically...like whichever person I'm fighting doesn’t just land on my attacks...you gotta be smart and fast and have a bit of foresight....I guess u could call all those mind games, but you also gotta have the tech to back it up...u gotta Lcancel and DJC and fast fall and dash dance and pivots and foot cancels and all that jazz...oh and u gotta make sure u can recover!


oh and KNOW THE COMBOS...its really a waste when u got awesome tech and mind games but you don’t know your character...in fact...know the combos(what can u do to what character?), know the hit boxes(what part will send enemies in what direction?), know the animations(you mean part of me dash attack doesn’t hit?), know the knock backs(nair and bair have weak and strong points...fair has many points), but that’s all internal...

u also gotta know your opponent...what's their weight? what's their fall speed? will they die off the top or the sides? how will this character approach me? how can this character shut me down? how can I make that character's advantage a disadvantage?


and really the best way to do this is to play human players...lots and lots and lots of them....a good way to extend this is to....play every character...don’t worry u can do it....take it slow we aren’t going anywhere are we?

as for the PARTICULAR match up mentioned...Fox can ALWAYS out speed Ness....Ness is super fast but Fox is the fastest ever...what u gotta do is make that speed gap as small as u can...know your opponent, know your character, learn tech, create mind games, etc. To be the best u can u need all of those.
Dan Smith:

SPAM:
Fair
Nair
Bair
Uair

OFTEN:
Grabs
Dash Attack
DTilt
Dair
Bat

OCCASIONALLY:
AAA Combo
FTilt
Utilt
PK Thunder*
PK Fire

SELDOM:
Yoyo
PK Flash
PSI Magnet
PK Thunder2*

Hmm, my move tier has gotten some very intellagent response.

I do want to explain and discuss it all a little bit though.

Firstly, the list I made was a very serious list, I don't actually play like that. I'm sure my playing style is similar to that list...but I use a lot of the SELDOM moves more when I should. (for fun) I am an aerial Ness though, mainly, as I think many are.

Three other things deserve my annotating:

Grabs are great, and Back Throw is especially important as a KO move for Ness, but due to Ness poor grab range and the ability of opponents to dodge Grabs and abuse the lag I decided they're best used OCCASIONALLY and not OFTEN. Does anybody spam Grab? Not really...but I totally spam Fair.

I also would like to simply say that I didn't forget the jabs, the AAA Combo, and really wanted to include them in the list (they go in right beside Tilts) but didn't really know what to call them. (jabs? AAA Combo?) I also decided not to differentiate between the Tilts, although realistically UTilt is harder to incorporate and DTilt is probably by far the most useful.

Similar to the situation with Grabs I also decided to put Dash Attack lower than most people might expect, not because it isn't super useful and a staple of Ness game, but because you can abuse the lag if you know how to fight a Ness. It is a hard move to commit to, sometimes it can be a big mistake.

I am going to amend my list, Bat's moving up and I'm rewording some things. (I am so long winded)
Vilness:

I think Ness has great KO potential even at low percents to many chars. And I can answer your questions as best as I can.
Ness does have good aerial KO moves like you mentioned.
Bair doesn’t have all that much range but it has a mar. GW effect, the after touch. This means that this attack stays longer than it seems (though the attack isn’t strong then, but enough for edge guarding)
Bair´s sweet spot can be also achieved when DJC`ing. If you don´t spam this it is a good surprise to swing into bair now and then. I also use C-stick for bair when baby jumping away from chasers. It makes them play a LOT more carefully and scares the heck out of them because the spark is usually so close to them!

Uair, also known as the head butt, is also probably easy to see coming. The thing is that, with DJC, it’s hard to see HOW it is coming! Lets say you have pooped your rival in air with step kick at reasonable %. Fastfallers won’t have time to react to Uair. Others have, but you can fool them with some fake outs, like Djc'ing so low that your enemies Dair will miss and he suffers from lag while you don´t. If you do this ground close, you have many options, like Grab, Utilt (my most common chose) or maybe even a bat. There are many other ways to connect the Uair but this is just to give ideas.
btw: You don´t have to jump directly beneath your opponent to Uair him because of DJC'ing

Grabbing is hard with Ness but Shield Grab is a good move now and then. Usually against chars. with not too big range you can Swing jump low and fair and L-cancel it into an grab if you caught them off guard. Also Ness’s back roll is quite good to give some grabs if it’s not spammed. I sometimes face away from enemy, WD towards enemy (still looking away from him) and then roll back. this works especially against Marth but should not be spammed at all cause it will get predictable. triangle jump to grab also works sometimes...

And the Fsmash. This is a real killer if you use it sparingly. As simple as it sounds, the WD backwards and a Bat works surprisingly well (again, if not overused). Sometimes the A,A,A combo can be followed up with a bat. using the bat is quite hard for me to discuss because somehow it comes very naturally to me, and I definitely never spam it! But I might once per match do it twice repeated... just to be less predictable

And the Fthrow is real killer near the ledge even at low %! it might result to fast kills against characters like Plumbers, Bowser, DK, Spandex Man, space animals, Ness himself, Team triforce (except Zelda but especially Sheik because you can PK Flash her after this!)
and also team Fire emblem.
It’s hard to get the grab near the ledge but it’s well worth it if you manage to succeed!

Here are some ideas, Someone other Ness player (like Mow and Dan S) feel free to correct me or add your own tips

Krulness:

So many people use the different ways of edge guarding with ness, so I've decided to dedicate this to it. So this is basically how the title sounds. Ways to edge guard.

First, there is the ever-so-famous pkflash. That one that makes all of your friend get pissed at you and lets any spectators cheer (most of the time). It’s pretty simple, just time your pkflash to be at max power before right before they are about to grab a ledge. The difficulty, of course, is the timing. It changes for fastfallers and weight, which is what makes this challenging, because if you miss, you're stuck pretty vulnerable. A good example would be for Mario. Start the pkflash right after hitting them and it will work perfectly if they just go a little of screen. The good benefit, is that if you know you're going to miss, you can just end it early and try something else. Also note that pkflash does not have to be full power to ko someone, as long as it hits, it will still do some major damage.

Next, is the bat. With its long reach and fairly strong damage, this makes for a great edge guard. This is much easier to pull of than the pkflash, and also keeps you at a bit of a safe distance if you use its reach to the full potential.

A really cruel move is to use pkfire. This is more annoying to an opponent than it is critical. But it can be helpful, if you follow up with a spike or maybe the bat. This is another deal that uses timing, and unfortunately in only goes parallel to the course unless you short hop and make it go diagonally.

There is also the down tilt, another cruel move that is also pretty annoying. You can always just spam it on the very edge, but that is pretty cheap, and it’s easy for someone to get out of. Not as recommended as the others.

You can try out up smash, the yoyo. Although this is not really that recommended because of its extremely horrible range, it can still set someone up for a short hop dair.

Most likely the most used edge guard is pkthunder. This can be used in a variety of ways, but most commonly just hitting your opponent with it. But really that isn't much of a smart idea. Ideally want them either not to make it back to the ledge, or putting on some damage and setting them up for another move. But sometimes, doing this doesn’t accomplish either. The smartest idea is to tail whip first, then hit. But even that takes good placement, which is something gained by practice. You can also use the pkthunder reverse edge guard, which is demonstrated at about 10:28 in Simna's guide to pk thunder number II. This is fairly difficult and requires being hit by the enemy, which most people are scared to let happen. You could use the false edge guard which is demonstrated at about 3:25 in Simna’s guide to pk thunder number I. This is a great fake, and is something that works most of the time, but can be hated when an someone has an up b that has long reach and hits you before you can pull it off. Also note that the enemy is pulled the direction from which the pkthunder came from, so you can use it as a setup, or to pull the opponent away if you hit from the back.

Ness can also use his nair or his fair which can rack up some great damage, these are far more common than using such powerful hits as the ones above.

Or another great move is the bair. This can be used in replacement of most other moves in a edge-guarding combo, and depending on where you hit, it can have many different outcomes. For example, if you hit the enemy with the tip of your toe, it doesn’t do as much damage as getting them fully. Depending on where you place it changes the direction they travel, which can be used with a major advantage.

Also add the dair, which can either be set up, or just used as a good-old spike. If you do decide to use it off the edge though, the easiest way to get back is to just short hop off, dair, jump again, and then pkthunder back. This can be more or less difficult depending on the stage. For fd, you can normally just make a strait path back to the ledge, or if you really get far down, you may have to shoot yourself into a slope.

Well, there you have it. Most of these techniques can be seen in VilNess' Nessgeguard or in Simna's guide to pkthunder both I and II. Make sure to go ahead and tell me anything else that should be put up, and good luck guarding that ledge.

Simna:

There are 7 different kinds of ness dash:

Second spark hits only: opponent pops up and tumbles.

First spark hits only: opponent is stunned for an instant and u are left vulnerable

Hands only hit: opponent is knocked a great distance away, but receives little damage.

Blank: Your dash clearly goes over the opponent but hits nothing(This happens when your opponent is between sparks 1 and 2)

First and second sparks hit: opponent is shocked and popped into the air and tumbles.

All hits: opponent is pushed, shocked and popped into the air slightly higher than without the push. Opponent does not tumble but floats upwards.

Late Dash: Opponent is hit by the dash in an area behind Ness' hands. This does weak dmg(around 2%) and makes the opponent pop up very slightly

By Macman (Mac$)

This is a list of different Ness tactics, strategies, and techniques that I use. I am a noob well not really but compared to some peeps on this board I am. I started playing again in October. And I started Ness 1 to 1.5 months ago. The techniques here may be inefficient or done better n a different way. I just want to hear your opinions on these or help someone that wants to try start-playing ness.

YYG: Teh roxxorz

Sour spotting Fair: This is when you use the fair and make it so that you do not hit with the last sparkle. The last sparkle send your opponent far away at high damages. If you don’t hit with the last sparkle your opponent is sent a tiny bit upwards so that you can continue comboing. Easy ways to make certain that you don’t hit with the last sparkle is to fast fall or hit the ground before the end of the move. This can lead into a grab, or in the air a uair, djc uair, nair, and possibly another fair.

DJC Dash: This is when you DJC really low to the ground then land dash. If you djc forward and then land dash it extends the size of your land dash. You can also djc forward but land dash backwards so that you can fake your opponent into thinking you are going to attack.

Repel: When you dash attack but hit with ness's hands so that they get pushed horizontally. I love to do this after a dthrow when I am near the edge so that I can start edge guarding.

Clogging: This is when you use a move to occupy your opponents “get up time”. For example knock someone into the ground and when they are laying down short hop a nair. You will hover above them doing the nair. So you might be able to hit them when they are on the ground but if they are still invincible you can hit them right after their invincibility frames go away and before there counter attack hits you. Moves that can clog: nair, fair, I think you can also charge a usmash, repetitive dtilts,

Extreme Short hop (ESH idk lol), DJCfflc: You can short hop a uair that is extremely close to the ground. I believe this is how to put the star jacket on. I haven’t really done this much. You have to sh then double jump so quickly that you dj as your feet are leaving the ground. This works with any air move.

Tagging: Just using the down smash to hit someone behind you.

Sparkle wall: Using a fair at the Edge so that someone using their third jump gets hit by it.
Retreating Sparkle Wall: run of the stage at then double jump backward while using the fair. Basically this allows you to cover more horizontal ground and is easier to hit with.

Vertical Sparkle wall: Using a fair that is fastfalled. This makes a vertical wall of sparkles and will usually drag your opponent down.

Yoyo tricks: There are many thing you can do with the usmash. Many say that it is very useless but I beg to differ. There is the yyg.
If you hit an opponent with the yoyo while it’s charging and release it, it will send your opponent right above you. Can use a utilt from this. But they can counter it by simply using a sexkick so.
If they get hit while its going up in front of you and they were in the air, they will be sent right in front of you stunned so it is very easy to grab out of this. You can also Chain grab with this( I will explain later. If they get hit when the yoyo is going around the top they are sent upwards so it is possible to juggle. You can also charge the yoyo right at the edge so that it blocks it and messes up opponents trying to sweet spot, this is another form of clogging.

Sniping: Short hopping your forward b at the edge so that it hits someone trying to sweet spot and disrupts their recovery.

Chain Grabbing: If you dthrow and they don’t jump you can shffl a sour spotted fair and grab them again. This can also be done with a nair. Also if you use the yoyo right you can chain grab with that.

Important Links:

Talks about Ness’ dash attack. It’s surprisingly versatile. I need to spam it more…

http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...highlight=Ness

Combos:

Combos are Ness' game. Be good at comboing, be a good Ness.

From Reik or UmbreonMow:

ness to falcon:

up throw, follow DI, DJC back kick to grab, up throw, follow DI, DJC head butt 2x, DJC back kick to 2nd and 3rd hit of dash attack, DJC head butt, jump back kick.

ness to general midweight:

DJC shove to grab, down throw, DJC head butt, DJC spin to grab, back throw

all I do to Falco is dash attack 3rd hit to grab at 0%. Then I up throw, DJC shove to grab, and chain throw them like that to 60-70-ish, then DJC head butt to bat instead. Like Mofo's combo idea, but it can't be escaped with DI and it's much, much more embarrassing.

hmm Luigi is easy too, if you can get him to 30 ish (2 kick kicks together do this nicely) and you can just DJC fair him across the stage to a finishing back kick. Depending how well you can follow DI, it's pretty simple stuff. I called it PK Wave, came up with it like....2-3 years ago? I forget.

Technomancer:

Ness needs more. There are a few in the guide, but I don't think that anything is standardized for Ness combos, esp. against Fox and Falco. YYG just isn't easy to pull off without combos, so we need everyone to post what you got! Make sure to include apprx. percents and fastfallers/floaties/heavies and whatnot.

Here's what I have:

Uthrow
vs. Fastfallers (and sometimes heavies)
Uthrow-> DJC Uair works up to about 90%. Can re-grab from 0% twice if opponent doesn't DI.
Uthrow (DI behind) -> DJC Bair (30% Plus)
Uthrow (DI front) -> DJC Fair -> Re-grab
Uthrow -> Nair or DJC Nair, 0-90%
Uthrow -> Utilt, at 30% or so, if they DI the Utilt you may be able to bat them.

Uthrow General
Uthrow -> Fair -> DJ Bair (thesage [in the original post it said theblackmage but that's me so...])

Dthrow
Dthrow -> Fair (non-fastfallers, touchy if they DI away)
Dthrow -> PK Fire (Fast/Semifastfallers, generally low %s)
Dthrow -> Towards DI - Ftilt, Bat, Nair, Uair
Dthrow -> dash attack(hit with one spark, they should be behind you) -> about any quick ground attack (EB360)

Utilt
Utilt -> Utilt (low %s, just about everyone, continue to mid percents if no DI
Utilt -> Uair
Utilt -> Nair
Utilt -> PKT

Uair
Uair -> Bair or Fair if they DI
Uair -> Uair
Uair -> Utilt (low percents, FFers and heavies)

Dair
Dair -> Bair, best on non-floaties.
Dair -> Uair, anyone, any percent, lol
Dair -> Grab during hit stun (very low %s, just about anyone)
-(w/ sideways DI, vs. fastfallers)-
Dair -> utilt -> upward angled ftilt (EB360)
Dair -> usmash(the around the world part, so no YYG)> up angled ftilt (EB360)
Dair -> Nair (Hyrule2)

Fair
Fair (sour spot) -> grab, just about everyone, be quick.
Fair -> Fair (can almost always get at least two)

DjC fair(sour spot)>DjC nair (EB360)
DjC fair(sour spot)>ftilt (EB360)
"Hmm... actually, sour spotted DjCfairscan lead to virtually anything" (EB360)

YYG
DJC Fair -> YYG (Best on fastfallers and heavies)
DJC Nair -> YYG (Best on fastfallers, heavies)
Unsweetspotted Bair -> Turn around, YYG (best on heavies)

Platform
DJC Uair onto a platform -> Tech -> Techchase w/ Bair, Fair, or Nair
DJC Uair onto platform, no tech; continue with Uairs until they get off the platform

PK Fire
PK Fire -> Grab, Fair, Nair (DI dependant)
PK Fire -> No DI/towards/CC -> Bat!
PK Fire Edge cancel -> Nair, Uair, Fair (DJC and C-stick for best results, anyone)

Dash Attack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simna ibn Sind dash attack can extend many of the combos u listed technomancer...for instance, with proper dash attack aiming you can continue a juggle combo on fast fallers even if they DI away from you
Dash Attack -> Uair, Fair (be quick), nair (low percents, be quicker), Bair (Not on DI away, Fastfallers)

Ness is Top Tier Combos
PK Flash -> Thunder Jacket (EB360)


And of course, remember that practicing your combos is good and all, but make sure to get tons of in-game experience! And remember, these combos certainly aren't universal and are very percent and character dependant, so um... get lots of in-game experience, and work up a strategy vs. characters that you have a hard time with, so you know what combos you're going to attempt next!
 
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Mikman360
#16
:(
I thought you were gonna use my YYG guide. I've already done so much. (Like 20 pages in Microsoft word).

I might just send you the PKT guide now since Simna isn't replying. :ohwell:
 

OnYourMark

オンヨマク いつも
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#24
Yo! I love the guide! Not only is it informative, but it has that EB360 humor ^_^
I saw a problem, though =( Your " ' "s (apostrophes) are all funky... they say " ’ "
Some of the other language characters on your guide are also wierd.
Is it supposed to be like that? Is this more of your humor??? It's not funny! Ahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!
lol, j/k =P O_O Bye bye
 
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#27
LMAO @ the title of this thread.:laugh:

Glad you guys like it :)

I think I know what happened. Where those wierd signs are, those were ...
In Microsoft word, it turns every 3 dots into a symbol that can be deleted at one time. Apparently, the forum doesn't like these symbols and it makes them into those wierd signs. The same applies for the ' since the ' on MS word is also different than here on SWF. I could fix that for you Annoying and send it back.:ohwell:
 
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#29
Is there going to be more to this guide? Looking at the current guide selection, any noob coming to the board is going to see the guides, and think that a bunch of PKT gimmicks and tricks, and YYG are either all he needs to learn, or the most important thing to learn, which definitely isn't the case. If someone is willing to write guides on more basic things, like djc, combos, etc. that'd be awesome. :)
 
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#31
Hey Annoying, fixing that guide wont be hard. If you are on right now, I can send the guide in my post. You just quote that, remove the quote tags, and update the PKT guide post and bam, it's that easy.

Sorry, I am one of those guys who cant stand a slightest mistake in a final project thingy >_>
 
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#32
WOW GOOD JOB SO FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T READ ALL THIS CAUSE I HAVE TO GO TO SLEEp BUT ILL READ IT TOMORROW. nice pictures haha :) :psycho: :cool: :lick: :chuckle:
 
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#34
I figured it out now. It gets messed up when I e-mail it to you. I tired it here by myself and it turned out fine. But I am fixing some mistakes right now. I'll post it here soon. Remember, just quote it (do not just copy and paste the actual post) and when you are taken to the post creating screen, cut the guide and post it in your post.
 
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#35
i have a few suggestions:
1. take out repeated material (unless you repeated stuff for a good reason)
2. the pictures help, but they can be more helpful if they were drawn more accurately. since this is going to be the best ness guide ever :), i reccommend that you draw the pictures as accurately as you can
3. the PK Thunder FD recovery picture is a little hard to read. you might want to darken the text.



your sig wasted like a minute of my time since i kept trying to scroll faster cause i don't want to wait so long to read it but i kept scrolling it too fast so i needed to keep going back up >_<



GOOD JOB
 
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#36
Thanks Arrowhead.

1. Okay. What do you suggest I fix?
2. I'll try. I suck at drawing though! :p Again, what do you suggest?
3. Well, since it came from Simna's video guide, I cant really affect the text, but is the red and blue really hard to read? I put that the yellow says ledge accessibility only near the pic since I thought that was the only one people would have trouble reading, but if the red and blue is hard to make out as well, I might as well define those too.
 
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#37
1. you repeated PKTRE kind of near the end and you mentioned and described PKTB in the beginning and elaborated on it more in the middle. i think it might be better to describe everything at one time.
2. maybe take a screenshots of ness doing it. like for the pic the the fox(?) saying "WTF?" (lol funny :p), you could have taken a screenshot when the PKT is supposed to turn so it's easier to apply the picture into the game and maybe drawn the path of PKT before and after the pic's time frame. your picture showed PKT curving toward ness and then doing a sharp turnupwards, but when i tried it in the game, i found that you just make it go straight down until a little past ness's feet (like a PKT head length) and then make a sharp left or right toward ness.
3. oh, you're right. i didn't read the text above that. i just looked at the picture.
 
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#39
Arrowhead, I repeated PKTB in the beggining because it was part of the post that I made in the Recovery tier list thread. I saw PKTRE in 5 places:

1. In the original guide that Simna made
2. In the "Defending Ness' recovery post
3. In the techniques
4. Same as the previous, just quoted from Simna. I felt that some people might not read through the entire old guide, but I needed them to see what Simna had to say for that. So I repeated it.
5. At the end. I just said it was uber hard though.

I'll try to get screen shots. I might not be able to do that, so if I cant, I'll just make the pics more accurate.

Annoying, those happened when you posted and e-mail on SWF. When I post again, those should be gone, so no worries.:)
 
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