The Wall - Game End.... no one wins?

[Raziek]

And finally, Skype logs, because it's quite apparent that Seph thought the same as I did here:

[8/29/2012 12:04:15 AM] Josh (Sephiroth): Raz
[8/29/2012 12:08:51 AM] Josh (Sephiroth): You there?
[8/29/2012 7:07:28 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Raz
[8/29/2012 7:07:35 PM] DRB | Raziek: yeah
[8/29/2012 7:08:12 PM | Edited 7:08:35 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Will you be active enough that if it comes down to it you'll hammer yourself if need be?
[8/29/2012 7:09:20 PM] DRB | Raziek: Yeah, I've been active-lurking here. If I can hammer someone who gets themself L-1 with modvotes, I'll hammer them and die tomorrow.

If it looks like I'm going to die, I'm going to pull the doc claim.
[8/29/2012 7:09:31 PM] DRB | Raziek: What should I claim, and who should I claim to have doc'd?
[8/29/2012 7:10:01 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): let me think for a sec
[8/29/2012 7:10:05 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): I'm kinda out of it
[8/29/2012 7:10:19 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): because I got my wisdom teeth pulled today
[8/29/2012 7:10:27 PM] DRB | Raziek: Because WtT has been covering my *** the whole time, so you can easily get him lynched after me
[8/29/2012 7:12:31 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Well the thing is
[8/29/2012 7:12:46 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): I want to get the last wincon out of the way
[8/29/2012 7:13:07 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Unless FML makes another screw up
[8/29/2012 7:14:27 PM] DRB | Raziek: gotta run for supper, take your time to think
[8/29/2012 7:15:04 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): k
[8/29/2012 7:19:59 PM] DRB | Raziek: back
[8/30/2012 6:31:17 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Thanks Raz
[8/30/2012 6:43:44 PM] DRB | Raziek: You're welcome. Go get em' champ.
[8/30/2012 6:55:03 PM] Josh (Sephiroth): Thanks!

Seph thought we'd achieve the wincon within the 48 (as evidenced by the fact that this conversation took place WITHIN 48, not PRIOR to it.)

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

hey our reads werent even that far off lol
in point of fact me+ orbo nailed july/wtT and seph, just for all the wrong reasons lol.

rest of the game was questionable.

No idea were soup got that scum read on us from. I wasn't ever going to actually hammer a town read :obv:

Unless FML makes another screw up

Story of this game

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Welp. I'm miffed that I had gutscum on Seph from the beginning and didn't do anything about it. Marshy was right on two out of three, but was blinded by a powerful love for Seph's manly flag-waving. Being right on Kanye should've clued me in.

Kary, remind me at every opportunity you get that I now know how to read you, and that I owe you the lost win in this game.

http://quicktopic.com/48/H/6S6GE7RqpMABX for the beautiful, gruesome details of our existence.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Lol:

FML isn't likely to die, we said in-thread that we might make him BP. I'd be willing to pick FML, because it makes our choice look deliberate as a result of the BP, and because I'd like to talk to FML toDay. But it's also possible that Rake will screw it up and load up on modvotes.

The confidence i inspire XD

 

[Overswarm]

have to take a **** 48 hours before deadline.

When is that? Is that exactly on 48? Is that within 48? Or before 48?

I think "48 hours before deadline" pretty clearly is the third one. The one that says "before 48", emphasis on the word "before".

"Exactly 48 hours before" would use the word exactly, while "within 48 hours of deadline" would use the word within.

There's really only one thing that "X hours before" could mean. If a professor told you your assignment was due on Friday at 11 p.m., do you sit there with a stopwatch to make sure it's turned in exactly at 11 p.m.?

OVERSWARM, YOUR SAMPLE ROLE PM HAS A DIFFERENT GLOBAL WINCON THAN YOUR TOWN ROLE PMS

Yes, again deliberate. There was also no M3D role.

OS, why would you make the initial wincons available to all mafia members then don't update them all? It's inconsistent, especially given your "mafia shouldn't be a hive-mind" approach.

July mistranslating the win con is a grave error though.

The same reason I have clarifiers for some abilities in their initial role PMs and answer questions pre-game, but decidedly remove MOD notes in various situations such as someone's wincon being investigated they wouldn't gain any special mod notes; a new player's misunderstanding of someone's wincon is their own problem.

It's not the MOD's responsibility to notify people of mistakes. I told July to tell her teammates about her new wincon, and she almost got Seph killed by not posting it to the QT until far later and then translated it incorrectly.

Hando did not use his double vote ability despite being able to seal a win for town easily, but he received no PM from me despite this mistake.

When FML got himself a MOD vote and was throwing out "WTF?!"s in thread, he received no PM from me being told "psst! Dark Horse isn't dead, remember your role?"


My wording was very consistently clear as were my actions. As a MOD you have to be passive or you are being unfair.

July rewording her wincondition and Raziek not understanding it are unfortunate, but for me to go out of my way to make sure that nothing went wrong for Mafia would be unfair for town.

"I now have to be the hammer vote on a lynch and I have to do so 48 hours before the deadline" that July said earlier

The above in the QT that I posted is clearly me copy/pasting the exact wording that July used earlier. It is not my responsibility nor my place to make sure that the actions affecting individual players be interpreted correctly by others.

I received a grand total of zero questions from Raziek about this beforehand anyway. To come into the QT and make sure it was interpreted correctly would have been unfair to town, just as informing FML about why he was receiving MOD votes or reminding Hando of his presence would have been unfair to Mafia. It is always the player's responsibility.

It being related to a mafia win condition does not change this; it merely raises the stakes.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

so basically town could've won if they asked the right persons what their global wincon is? :v

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

fml is lookin town to me but seph says hes scum

marshy can be my superman <3

 

[#HBC | Kary]

welp my gut was right.

commence the hate on me.

don't quickvote in Lylo

The funniest part is that there were so many ways for Town to win and there was no attempt at any of them.

The funniest part is I didn't care at all about all of that bull****

6. Kary
Honestly Kary, didn't like your play at all this game, and it kinda pissed on you in end-game (where it was most important). Just a problem with your general approach. It was somewhat interesting, though.

Thanks for your constructive criticism Xonie

Oh right, @Kary, Seph ACTUALLY GOT THAT RESULT. You were sharp to spot the discrepancy, but I have no idea what happened there. OS, enlightenment?

Two players investigate the same player on the same night (presumably what happened) and they get different results?

Plus did you actually SEE Seph's play D2?
--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIRyeECkUxU

@Nabe: don't sweat it. I know I had multiple fruitless arguments with you this game, and we disagreed on almost every single point of play, but I don't really have any problems with you/your slot.


I can't believe OS put a Jester in this game :/

bleh

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Get one skype we could talk through it

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Kary, D2 = my entire reason on my gut scum on seph.

Also, I doubt there would be as much salt had i gone gut again and voted Seph. Oh well live and learn.

Spoiler

and never make it to lylo again

"ghebs fav activity as scum etc." = fml

still love this wall post XD

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

This has got to be my favourite town game ever, worth saying. And on par with how much I enjoyed Fire Emblem and Super Heroes.

Oh, and I can finally send OS a PM I've been meaning to send!

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Get one skype we could talk through it

@me? hmm maybe, not that I have skype installed.
you could always pm me, but that might involve making it short and sweet, i dunno if this game is even suitable for that.

This has got to be my favourite town game ever, worth saying. And on par with how much I enjoyed Fire Emblem and Super Heroes.

Oh, and I can finally send OS a PM I've been meaning to send!

really???/ glad someone enjoyed it.
eh

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Either way, it wasn't my intention to beat you down like that hehe. So yeah, feel free to contact me if you'd ever want to.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Well there's parts of MY play I don't like much this game, D3 springs to mind for instance, but overall I thought I did ok. I'm interested in both hearing feedback if it's specific and in defending my play in general, so i appreciate you saying that.

I don't know, I just didn't really have any townbros this game; of my strong town reads, soup, inferno and macman all died double quicktime, then kantrip replaced into inactive horse :/

july has just been playing super tunnel brothers mafia

oh man I lol'd so hard

 

[Overswarm]

so basically town could've won if they asked the right persons what their global wincon is? :v

Against the rules to share that information.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Hando did it; then Seph said his wincon is different from Hando's.

No idea why he didn't get lynched on the spot for that.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

wasnt hando already dead at that point though ?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

That's when you remove him from the game.

My personal modkill policy on other sites was to change a modkilled person's role into "independent survivor" and then modkill them.

 

[Raziek]

Regardless of the policy that you have on communication, the fact that you ALLOWED the misconstrued wording to remain in your mod communication in the QT is deceptive and false.

What POSSIBLE REASON could you have NOT to post exactly what you told her, and instead let the misunderstanding permeate into the rest of the conversation by you reinforcing it?

You told her "at least 48 hours before". That's perfectly clear.

Why did you not tell US that?

Why did you let that misunderstanding go through? That's my problem here.

I'm going to quote the important part that you keep dodging.

By quoting July in your QT post, and NOT CORRECTING WHAT SHE SAID, you implicitly tell us that what she said is correct, when it was not.

Why did you quote the incorrect wording? Why would you not post what you told her?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

really???/ glad someone enjoyed it.
eh

In all fairness to your experience with the game, maybe it was being hydra'd with marshy that made it so great. Usually my town games are atrocious.

But I also enjoyed the setup, enjoyed my restriction, enjoyed the Wall posting and the puzzles. Definitely an A+ game.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

In all fairness to your experience with the game, maybe it was being hydra'd with marshy that made it so great. Usually my town games are atrocious.

But I also enjoyed the setup, enjoyed my restriction, enjoyed the Wall posting and the puzzles. Definitely an A+ game.

this I can understand, i'm just surprised is all. I don't know I felt like you must've got pretty mad at me at points so, yeah, surprised.

good GORF i ****ing hate kary. not as a person/player but did you see him blatantly ****ing role fish towards seph? (hurrr seph your confidence on july is strange!) like what the mother****?

Seph faking a guilty and I'm suspicious of him for it?

 

[Overswarm]

By quoting July in your QT post, and NOT CORRECTING WHAT SHE SAID, you implicitly tell us that what she said is correct, when it was not.

Why did you quote the incorrect wording? Why would you not post what you told her?

I've already answered this. I cannot hold anyone's hand. Your assumptions on what I said are not my concern, especially when you don't ask for clarification. I did not imply anything; for all you know, July could have been an independent spy in the mafia that was lying to you.

July made a mistake, and you made assumptions based on that mistake. That's the long and short of it.

Would you have been upset if July said "my ability is that if I modkill myself D1, I can choose three people to die on N3" and then N3 showed up and no one died? Would that misconception be on me to fix?

 

[Orboknown]

****, my bad guys. I pushed karyscum on rake.
/badinlylo

 

[Handorin]

Guess I could've won town the game if I cared to keep sending in my double vote. Real life is taking too much time to mind much at all.

 

[Overswarm]

It wasn't so much that your reads were wrong Orbo, but that you acted rashly.

You could have waited and made a plan. With JTB's ability and Hando's double vote ability, mafia could not kill both options. Waiting and making a plan could have resulted in you, JTB, Kary, and Seph being able to determine exactly ONE person that you believed was not mafia, and to leave it at that. Not foolproof by any means, but better than a one in four shot and certainly better than quickvoting and being stuck.


Hando, you would have had a 50/50 shot anyway.




There was some good play by a lot of people this game. No Hetero did very well after D1 especially and Seph's play was very well done. I think they both stood out as the primary driving force behind both of their factions, although JTB did an excellent job as well.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'd like to update on the night action situation.

Seph cursing JTB in the last phase made it impossible to no-lynch without pretty much all of town losing. He never expected to actually win, but he took it and made the best out of the situation.

So yeah, once FML voted, that was it.

 

[Orboknown]

It wasn't so much that your reads were wrong Orbo, but that you acted rashly.

You could have waited and made a plan. With JTB's ability and Hando's double vote ability, mafia could not kill both options. Waiting and making a plan could have resulted in you, JTB, Kary, and Seph being able to determine exactly ONE person that you believed was not mafia, and to leave it at that. Not foolproof by any means, but better than a one in four shot and certainly better than quickvoting and being stuck.

Yea, like I said, my bad. me and rake just said "wlp, let's just get this out of the way".
Sorry guys.
Seph, GJ.

 

[Overswarm]

Thoughts on this game:


Overall, good success. The "Puzzle" aspect I enjoyed even though they were a bit too difficult for most of you, but I think they had a good effect on the game and made it a bit more difficult for mafia. While they weren't used as a big thing at the end for town, the option was there for a faction that felt they were far behind to use the puzzles as a hail mary.

The "Wall" aspect I enjoyed even though it was mostly silly stuff, but...


This game would have been over by like D4 if I had modkilled everyone that was late. Seriously, I had to wait days to get responses from people and had to eventually modkill WTThrone because he had been severely late 3 days in a row.

It'd be one thing if it was something like one guy having some internet or real life issues, but it was over half the game every phase. Was pretty frustrating and not much I could do.

Modkilling everyone would just ruin the game for people that had put work into it, so I'll need to find some sort of new punishment. Just not exactly sure what it could be... I could have perhaps given puzzle hints to opposite factions of people that were late in this game. Maybe MOD votes, maybe a removal of their ability or roleblocking them or something. I dunno.

It's very difficult to force activity from people that just are inactive. Maybe have "emergency wall posts" sent in early just in case? I'm not sure on the best result.

Most people's play was adequate at worst. A few big mistakes here and there and POOR SOUP on D1, that was just ridiculous.

I do think that individual wincons would be less "everyone has their own" and more "everyone has one of this pool of wincons" in the future, or maybe even "pick your wincon from this list".





My next small will be another experimental setup, but not quite as "new" as this. It will involve more planning than most mafia games.

Normally we have day phases followed by Night phases, and the day phase dictates our night actions. This can result in some sticky situations for mafia and means town's abilities have to be dampened so there isn't something like "follow the cop" or whatnot going on.

What I'll be doing for my next game is forcing everyone to send their Night Actions in advance before the Day phase starts. So for N1's actions, you'd send them in before the game starts. N2 actions, you send in during N1.

This means conversations like "you should investigate player Y" will have a bit of a lag time. This will allow for more manipulation and trickery in addition to adding more of a day emphasis since night actions can't directly be relied on. It will also add some scum finding mechanics and protection for aggressive townies. If you catch scum on D2, you won't die until N3 unless you are lynched. In addition to this, it makes scum's lynch choices important; they don't want to lynch people that they already sent in a NK on. This adds some weight to their actions, and makes them more naturally predictable.

A big deal here could be thing like Doc protections; they're essentially going to be done the same way scum's kills will be.

I think it could be interesting.

 

[Inferno3044]

For the hell of it i'll claim my wall posts:

N0: The italicized one. It was a half-***'d attempt to have a RFesque texture crumbing that I was swiss. Purposely used chaos twice because its the name of my ability. Thought I crumbed all I needed after this post so none of the others were real serious.
N1: Homies over hoes. I was chillin with friends and we were just doing that dance from the boondocks. Funny show and I love it.
N2: Erupting Burning Finger. Should totally be my next game in queue but I still need to present my case again. I did make a slight change while keeping the mechanic that I really want to have. OS back me up by saying its a good setup.

All in all I really liked the game. Very interesting mechanics and I personally thought I did a good job and baited the NK very well.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

no jesters next time plz

 

[JTB]

Gary was here, Ash is a loser!

Surprised people took so long to send in night actions, when the most inactive player can make deadlines, imo everyone should be able to

 

[KevinM]

I hated our role for what it was worth but I thought the game itself was a lot of fun.

But yeah our role was BS lol

 

[KevinM]

Don't get me wrong I know what you were getting at witht he concept of hte role OS but it's just altogether an almost impossible role.

 

[Raziek]

My Wall Posts:

N0: Almost forgot, wouldn't want to get replaced now would I?

N1: Xenoblade is a fantastic game. Any fans?

N2: Operating Systems is no fun!' quoth the Raven.

N3: Just played the most hype League match ever. My Jimmies will never recover.

 

[Inferno3044]

Is xenoblade the wii version? If so I'd buy it because I was interested but i haven't played other games in the series. Im gonna play xenogears soon but I need to find out how to put a PS1 emulator on my PS3. If anyone knows how that'd be nice. Too much money would come out of my pocket if I bought them from the PSN store and some games I want aren't on there (MMX series, parappa)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Reminder, this is why I don't play OS games


It was delicious to watch.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I think my final thoughts have probably got to be

'why can't people read Seph'?

nothing he did this game was pro-town or genuine :/

 

[Raziek]

Is xenoblade the wii version? If so I'd buy it because I was interested but i haven't played other games in the series. Im gonna play xenogears soon but I need to find out how to put a PS1 emulator on my PS3. If anyone knows how that'd be nice. Too much money would come out of my pocket if I bought them from the PSN store and some games I want aren't on there (MMX series, parappa)

Xenoblade is Wii, yes, and it's not linked to Xenogears or Xenosaga in any way.

And it's fantastic.

 

[Overswarm]

Don't get me wrong I know what you were getting at witht he concept of hte role OS but it's just altogether an almost impossible role.

FrozenFlame does it every game!

Your role could have been accomplished by being a strong pro-town force early on and getting NKilled because of it, but that in itself is the difficult part.

I think my final thoughts have probably got to be

'why can't people read Seph'?

nothing he did this game was pro-town or genuine :/

I felt so bad for you getting blindsided on the last day. I thought "okay, now they'll lynch Seph and I'll have to comb the thread to see who won/lost" and then out of nowhere suspicion on you.

 

[Overswarm]

Xenoblade is Wii, yes, and it's not linked to Xenogears or Xenosaga in any way.

And it's fantastic.

I've wanted to get it but they all had bad british accents when I saw a video and it turned me off of it.