The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Wild Gunman may be like a shield for Duck Hunt, but the randomness of the gunmen makes them not too reliable for offensive purposes outside of dealing some extra damage to careless opponents.

 

[Deleted member]

Wild Gunman may be like a shield for Duck Hunt, but the randomness of the gunmen makes them not too reliable for offensive purposes outside of dealing some extra damage to careless opponents.

Agreed. At least with Zelda's Phantom (which is something similar to me, a projectile bodyguard), they can edgeguard far and away, KO reliably most of the time and give Zelda something to space with and give her some breathing room even if it's not exactly the best move ever.

 

[Zerp]

I thought we were doing this tomorrow? Whatever, we're doing it now I guess, since you guys already begun. Duck hunt's voting period will just be 2 days long instead of one since it started abruptly, and I need muh order.
Anyways, for Duck Hunt Duo, please vote on this little poll.

Spoiler: Duck Hunt Duo poll

http://goo.gl/forms/CHw3y3mF3c

(I'll update the OP with this, and some other things in a little bit, but I'm a bit busy right now)

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I don't play duck hunt, but I have a good friend who mains him, so I guess I can say a few things:

Duck Hunt's biggest problem and the biggest reason to buff him is his KO options. They are very limited, and don't even work all the time. Most of Duck Hunt's KO moves are multi-hit, and as a result sometimes don't connect for reasons out of your control. From my knowledge, DHD's only KO options are his smashes, U-air (all of these have 2 hits before the KO hit), Dair spike, and if the stars align a throw into can combo can kill. Even if you get a read that would be game winning for any other character, they could somehow squeak their way out of the killing hit, and with DHD's weight and recovery they could feasibly turn the rest of their stock into a KO on DHD.

I propose that Duck Hunt should get a consistent KO method for a buff. Whether that means give DHD a kill throw, rework its smashes, add knockback to an aerial, or buff the can's knockback. That could at least give DHD a chance against a lot more characters

 

[Furret24]

I don't play duck hunt, but I have a good friend who mains him, so I guess I can say a few things:

Duck Hunt's biggest problem and the biggest reason to buff him is his KO options. They are very limited, and don't even work all the time. Most of Duck Hunt's KO moves are multi-hit, and as a result sometimes don't connect for reasons out of your control. From my knowledge, DHD's only KO options are his smashes, U-air (all of these have 2 hits before the KO hit), Dair spike, and if the stars align a throw into can combo can kill. Even if you get a read that would be game winning for any other character, they could somehow squeak their way out of the killing hit, and with DHD's weight and recovery they could feasibly turn the rest of their stock into a KO on DHD.

I propose that Duck Hunt should get a consistent KO method for a buff. Whether that means give DHD a kill throw, rework its smashes, add knockback to an aerial, or buff the can's knockback. That could at least give DHD a chance against a lot more characters

Duck Hunt's kill options are smashes, sweetspot nair, uair, dair spike, and sweetspot bair. All of them have big flaws though that limit their use. Smashes and uair have connecting issues, nair and bair have strict sweetspots, and dair is rather weak, especially for a spike. I think making his smashes and uair connect reliably, increase the hitbox size of nair, remove the unnecessary sourspot on bair, and buff the power of dair and atleast one of his throws would help his killing issues, offensive game, and ultimately make him a better character.

Obviously, he still has flaws in his projectiles, laughable recovery, and grab game, but this would a great start. I'd love it if I could consistently take stocks before 150%.

 

[wedl!!]

Gunmen having such ridiculously low HP is actually a huge problem too. IMO if they were to be buffed they should go to 7% HP.

 

[Zerp]

I think it's about time I put up the poll to select the character for tomorrow, so please vote here if your interested in who goes next.

Spoiler: strawpoll

http://strawpoll.me/6491183 (Not so subliminal propaganda to vote for His Majesty Dedede)

Unfortunately I couldn't fit ,,,, and on the poll due to space, so they'll have to be added to the polls one by one, every time a character is taken off it, sorry about that.

Anyways, about "tomorrow", my tomorrow and all your tomorrows's probably begin at a very different time, so that brings me to my question, would you guys rather have me end the day when it's over in my timezone (CEST), or in some other Timezone that a lot of the Smash community's from, like PST or EST?

 

[Deleted member]

I think it's about time I put up the poll to select the character for tomorrow, so please vote here if your interested in who goes next.

Spoiler: strawpoll

http://strawpoll.me/6491183 (Not so subliminal propaganda to vote for His Majesty Dedede)

Unfortunately I couldn't fit ,,,, and on the poll due to space, so they'll have to be added to the polls one by one, every time a character is taken off it, sorry about that.

Anyways, about "tomorrow", my tomorrow and all your tomorrows's probably begin at a very different time, so that brings me to my question, would you guys rather have me end the day when it's over in my timezone (CEST), or in some other Timezone that a lot of the Smash community's from, like PST or EST?

EST would be a better bet, I feel. Maybe like 10:30 AM EST is something that'd work.

Also, voted for Dedede. Gonna be interesting to have a discussion on him, I love talking about this character.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Duck Hunt, I honestly feel, Is a Low-Mid, maybe top of low. But, that doesn't mean he's without many flaws. But first the good things about him. For one thing he has great projectiles. His can and frisbee are great. They each allow him to camp opponents, and Duck Hunt has many tricks he can use with that, along with some good edgeguarding tools with it. He also has a good forward tilt, which can be used to get somebody away from you. His dash attack and jab are good. His dash attack has good knockback for a Duck Hunt move (Which means it still has terrible knockback), but it has the ability to follow into his aierals. Speaking of which, his aierals are good. They have good startup, and can combo with each other, along with doing more can tricks.

However, onto the flaws. His biggest flaw, as everyone knows, is his killing problem. It is SO hard to KO as him. The opponent can live to 200% many times. The only move with even decent KO power is his up air, forward smash, and up smash. Speaking of his smashes, another flaw he has is that his smashes, espicially down smash, don't properely connect. This makes his killing problems yet even worse. Another problem he has is his terrible recovery. It covers little distance and is one of the most easily gimped recoveries in the game. Another flaw he has is his terrible grab. None of his throws really combo, and none of them kill. And finally, his can hurting himself if he's near it when he blows up. Half of his cans end up doing this and it is SO annoying.

These are the buffs I want him to get:

• Have his can never hit himself
• Give him a kill throw (Preferably up throw)
• Make smashes connect properly
• Make his dash attack and some other moves KO way earlier. Make his smashes have more knockback too

This should be good for him. He is the fourth character I want buffs the most for.

 

[GreenMonkey]

EST would be a better bet, I feel. Maybe like 10:30 AM EST is something that'd work.

Also, voted for Dedede. Gonna be interesting to have a discussion on him, I love talking about this character.

Yeah! EST would be convenient for many people (including meeeee!)

Also, go Robin! I want Robin to get moar attention.

 

[Zerp]

EST would be a better bet, I feel. Maybe like 10:30 AM EST is something that'd work.

Also, voted for Dedede. Gonna be interesting to have a discussion on him, I love talking about this character.

I think EST can work, it's only 6 hours behind me, so if it's 10:30 Am it would be 4 for me, I won't have to get up in the middle of the night for it, so yeah, I'd appreciate anytime that I don't have to wake up ridiculously early for.

Yeah! EST would be convenient for many people (including meeeee!)

Also, go Robin! I want Robin to get moar attention.

Yeah, I agree, EST seems like the best pick here. Since EST is convenient for most of you guys, and isn't a hassle on me, I think we're going to go with that.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Duck Hunt?

The big problems:

-KO options are pretty terrible especially with the wonky hit boxes of his smash attacks. As far as reliable kill options go, uair and bair are pretty much it but both are still fairly laggy.

-Landing options are pretty bad, especially since his aerials have an usually high amount of landing lag.

-Super vulnerable and predictable recovery.

-Close combat options are terrible.

Smaller problems:

-The gunmen are pretty flimsy.

-The can backfires all too easily.

-One mediocre set up throw that doesn't have guaranteed follow ups.

Duck Hunt is one of those characters I feel needs a lot of changes to be "fixed." It's a defense minded character but it gets punished way too hard if its defenses are penetrated, just like Palutena and Dedede. I'm being super vague but these three characters need their defensive options to be more rewarding and actually have gotten offensive options if their defenses fail on them.

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

I'm mildly irritated that Duck Hunt's can is so easy to disable by opponents. If Mewtwo reflects it with Confusion, even when it's on the ground, Duck Hunt can't use that can anymore. If Sheik hits it with needles, there is a significant amount of hitstun before you can shoot it again. I'm prayin' they'll make the can more resilient in a future patch.

Also, the fact that opponents can hit the can away in the air but Duck Hunt can't is lame...

 

[Lag Chan]

I'd bet that just buffing his KO power would instantly make Duck Hunt lower mid. It's such a crippling weakness that literally his only reliable kill move is Uair, whilst Can needs a ton of set up to even kill with and there's the always infamous smash attacks, even then Fsmash is the only one with solid kill power.

The other issues are pretty glaring too. Recovery is predictable with floaty jumps and meh Up B along with light weight makes DH very easy to kill, Wild Gunmen are pretty useless as shields most of the time, Clay Pigeon having a million frames of end lag, pretty much no combos whatsoever. Plus the biggest flaw of all, DH is irrelevant because of these flaws. Why play Duck Hunt when you could play Pac Man? When you've got characters who completely invalidate using others, that's the sign of poor balance. But knowing the trend, I'm not expecting any buffs sadly.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

:

• make Fair a kill move
• Reduce most of the invinci frames on Bouncing fish and vanish
• Make needles slower
• Give her the ability to cancel her grenade by shielding and keep the grenade from exploding. Give her an extra option that has counter play wouldn't hurt anybody.

:

• Give bowser better tilts (less end lag on all) and more range on his Fair and Bair
• Give D3 an actual RESPECTABLE projectile (make gordo more damage and damage threshold)
• Give Ganondorf better tilts (make Ftilt, Dtilt and jab less end lag). Make Side B untechable and faster on start up.
• Donkey kong: Give Nair more range. Make Ftilt less end lag.
• Give Zard better aerials (give Fair more range. Make Bair faster on start up. Give Nair more range).

:

• Give Duck Hunt a kill throw
• Give jiggly better aerials (give Fair and Nair more range and damage. Give Uair more damage and disjoint). Give side B less end lag. Give rest more damage and make it kill earlier.
• Give bowser jr. Two respectable projectiles ( make cannonball faster on end lag and start and charge. Allow the player to cancel it by shielding. Give mechakoopa less end lag and make mechakoopa do more damage). Give Bowser Jr. A kill throw
• Give Kirby a kill move (Give Uthrow much more knockback growth. Give FThrow and Bthrow much less knockback growth. Give Dthrow the angle of 180* and make it a semi spike). Increase his run speed a little more.
• Give G&W bigger and Stronger sweepspots. Give Fair faster start up.
• Shulk: Give all his aerials faster start up. Give his jab faster start up.
• Samus: fix jab combo. give Ftilt less end lag. Give her better aerials ( give Bair higher base knockback and growth. Give Nair a bigger hit on all around). Give side B less end lag. Give all her smashes higher base and growth knockback except Usmash.

 

[Furret24]

I'll post buff ideas for Duck Hunt later

Duck Hunt, I honestly feel, Is a Low-Mid, maybe top of low. But, that doesn't mean he's without many flaws. But first the good things about him. For one thing he has great projectiles. His can and frisbee are great. They each allow him to camp opponents, and Duck Hunt has many tricks he can use with that, along with some good edgeguarding tools with it. He also has a good forward tilt, which can be used to get somebody away from you. His dash attack and jab are good. His dash attack has good knockback for a Duck Hunt move (Which means it still has terrible knockback), but it has the ability to follow into his aierals

(More later)

Can is laggy and easy to turn against you; Clay Pidgeon has horrendous ending lag and is easy to avoid (shield nullifys it well and just about any hitbox breaks it); and Gunmen is very slow, very slow, and really lacking in range for a projectile. For a character that's supposedly based around his projectiles, they are quite lacking.

Good knockback for a Duck Hunt move means nothing, it also doesn't lead into aerials. That aside, Dash Attack is pretty decent though, mainly due to it's small disjoint and lasting hitbox.

 

[GreenMonkey]

SHFF with Fair, Bair, and Nair would be nice, since DH wants quick aerials to stop approaches.

Its can seems to be a confused hybrid of Link/Tink's Bomb and Pac's Hydrant. On one hand, it explodes when touched and can damage DH, like a Bomb, but it can be hit by opponents and switch sides, like a Hydrant. But it's sloooooow!

With both the Can and the Clay Pigeon thingy-majiggy, maybe it would benefit DH if he could have two or more of them out at the same time. It may get very chaotic and befuddling, tho, so perhaps not.

The Wild Gunman should serve at least a purpose, offensively or defensively. Right now, it's lukewarm in terms of usefulness. The shots only kill around the 200%~300% range, which should be more around 100%~150% if the gunmen are designed to be kill options. If they're there to protect DH, they should have more health, and be a meat shield like Lumas!

His Up-B seem alright to me, but making it tad faster would be appreciated, to around Rosa's recovery range.

 

[Zerp]

As of righty now (4:30 PM for me), King Dedede and Doc. Mario are in a tie, and since the day's about to end, that isn't really what I wanted. I would like to explain though, for whenever there's a tie, I'll be using a random selection tool, so there's no real problem when that occurs. The tool picked Doc. Mario, so he's who we'll be doing today.

Anyways, here's the results from yesterday https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dPcJr_lNb_vzYWJRb-2HL34_dfluGP63NoP9peCVix4/edit?usp=sharing Edit: Results now have visual charts, hopefully that helps make it look less ugly

Today's poll for Doc Mario, please vote here if your interested in the Doctor.

Spoiler: Doc. Mario survey

http://goo.gl/forms/X47aEp5m2y

The poll to choose who goes next

Spoiler: Poll of tomorrow

http://strawpoll.me/6500453

And with that Doc. Mario's day has begun.
(And before anyone points it out, on one of the questions, his name is listed as Doc. Mari. I made like the world's lamest typo today lol)

 

[Deleted member]

Voted for Dedede this round, but after that I'm gonna vote for Jiggs. The air release stuff probably makes her MUs more problematic (MK is literally 100:0 in his favor now)

But yeah...

PhD in KOing

Dr. Mario, eh? Let's talk about Dr. Mario.

I have far more experience with Doc than I do Duck Hunt, considering he's one of my mains in Melee and I have him as a very close secondary here in Smash 4.

Dr. Mario as a character is pure counterpick. He's definitely not solo viable due to his issues, but he has a lot of traits that stand out and aid him in certain matchups:

• Hits like a damn truck, and can net KOs in a pretty scary amount of time if played to full optimization.
• Has great frame data, it is the same as Mario's after all. His combo ability is nothing to sneeze at either, even if it's played differently to Mario's.
• SHFF bair is an amazing pressure tool, is safe on shield is does a very respectable amount of damage.
• Dr. Tornado is useful for recovery, edgeguarding (even securing offstage KOs), and even sometimes as a landing mixup.
• He pretty much has the best up smash in the game.
• Sheet of course is a versatile reflector and can gimp some recoveries.
• Super Jump Punch is insanely good out of shield and is one of generally Doc's best finishers when near a ledge or on a low-ceiling stage (Battlefield, Town & City, Halberd, Dream Land etc.)

So with all these traits, you think you'd see more Docs around. He's definitely not a bad character by any stretch of imagination, but has some flaws that definitely bring his viability down considerably. These are:

• His recovery is meme-tier. It's pretty damn unsafe for Doc to go offstage most of the time. If he loses his second jump over there, he's not coming back.
• His mobility is average overall, and although his lower jumps give him a quite good shorthop game it again negatively effects his recovery.
• Pills need to be better. While they're a decent projectile already, they have slow movement speed and the cooldown isn't that good.

Doc out of all the characters on this list is weird to me because I genuinely feel like he's fine the way he is, since his strengths are very apparent and balance out his weaknesses. But if he were ever to get buffs, I'd guess more vertical distance and less endlag on Tornado and have less cooldown on pills would be realistic. That's kinda it really, lol

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Literally ^this. Doc is basically viable. Solo-viable imo. The main thing that holds him back is his recovery, nothing else. But, I personally don't see this as an omnipotent flaw, and it can be marginalized of you made sure to play the neutral as best as possible.

 

[FamilyTeam]

As a solo Mario main, I will admit the transition fro mMario to Doc is a bit rough. Doc is far slower than Mario in every sense, which makes him awkward to handle if you're too used to classic Mario like I am.
He's not without merits, but I feel like classic Mario is just a better character, really...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Dr. Mario sure lost a decent amount of his viability after Melee. His movement is slower than Mario's, and his recovery is just sad as well. Mario is fortunate that his Cape can help his recovery, which is really something that Dr. Mario needs for his Super Sheet.

 

[apparently fuz]

I don't really know what to do with Doc. As Feelicks said, he's pretty fine as is. Probably what I'd want is for his d-air to autocancel in a short hop, and to have around 16 or so frames of end lag for it to be able to either combo into u-tilts or grab at lower percentages, or a kill confirm at higher.

 

[Deleted member]

Dr. Mario sure lost a decent amount of his viability after Melee. His movement is slower than Mario's, and his recovery is just sad as well. Mario is fortunate that his Cape can help his recovery, which is really something that Dr. Mario needs for his Super Sheet.

Him having slower movement speed in general is more a less a fulfillment of his actual design intention in Melee: to be a slower yet stronger Mario. Turns out somebody forgot to program that in and so he just ended up being a stronger Mario while keeping his speed but with a bad recovery. It made him turn out to be much more viable than Mario due to him rectifying Mario's own KOing issues in that game.

I don't really know what to do with Doc. As Feelicks said, he's pretty fine as is. Probably what I'd want is for his d-air to autocancel in a short hop, and to have around 16 or so frames of end lag for it to be able to either combo into u-tilts or grab at lower percentages, or a kill confirm at higher.

I'd love for dair to autocancel or generally just have less landing lag. It'd be such a great move if there were the case.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Him having slower movement speed in general is more a less a fulfillment of his actual design intention in Melee: to be a slower yet stronger Mario. Turns out somebody forgot to program that in and so he just ended up being a stronger Mario while keeping his speed but with a bad recovery. It made him turn out to be much more viable than Mario due to him rectifying Mario's own KOing issues in that game.

I guess the odd part about Melee Dr. Mario is that it was only his attack speed that was made slower. Smash 4 really did nerf Dr. Mario in the movement department (being only 82% the speed of Mario's movement speed), which is a problem for his recovery. Mario at least has good air speed on his side for his recovery.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Hey, Doc actually won.

I feel like the Good Doctor is a shamefully overlooked character. I personally think he's bottom of mid tier or top of mid-low. I actually prefer playing Doc over Mario, but even I can't deny that Doc has some major flaws.

- His mobility on the ground is straight up ass (why does Dedede run faster than him?)
- His mobility in the air is arguably worse, with a subpar air speed and a pitiable recovery.
- His combo game leaves a lot to be desired, with some of his moves not having the combo potential that they should.
- His range is almost Jigglypuff levels of bad. Almost.
- His butter shoes stop his out of shield game from being as deadly as it should be.

While I do think that Dr. Doom is viable as a co-main (like how Boss plays him), he needs some work done before he's ready to strike out on his own. Namely:
- Increase his dashing speed from 1.3 to 1.5 (Luigi's dash speed.)
- Increase his air speed from .943 to 1.05 (Mii Gunner's air speed.)
- Increase Super Jump Punch's distance.
- Decrease Dr. Tornado's ending lag, starting lag, and increase the damage from 8% to 11%.
- Increase the scaling on late neutral air so that it becomes a KO move.
- Raise the knockback angle of up air so that it hits opponents upwards like Mario's.
- Remove the sourspot on The Fist and cut some of the starting frames off.
- Make down air autocancel and make it faster on beginning and end so that it's more like Fox's down air.

With those changes I feel Doc would soar to mid-high.

 

[apparently fuz]

Hey, Doc actually won.

I feel like the Good Doctor is a shamefully overlooked character. I personally think he's bottom of mid tier or top of mid-low. I actually prefer playing Doc over Mario, but even I can't deny that Doc has some major flaws.

- His mobility on the ground is straight up *** (why does Dedede run faster than him?)
- His mobility in the air is arguably worse, with a subpar air speed and a pitiable recovery.
- His combo game leaves a lot to be desired, with some of his moves not having the combo potential that they should.
- His range is almost Jigglypuff levels of bad. Almost.
- His butter shoes stop his out of shield game from being as deadly as it should be.

While I do think that Dr. Doom is viable as a co-main (like how Boss plays him), he needs some work done before he's ready to strike out on his own. Namely:
- Increase his dashing speed from 1.3 to 1.5 (Luigi's dash speed.)
- Increase his air speed from .943 to 1.05 (Mii Gunner's air speed.)
- Increase Super Jump Punch's distance.
- Decrease Dr. Tornado's ending lag, starting lag, and increase the damage from 8% to 11%.
- Increase the scaling on late neutral air so that it becomes a KO move.
- Raise the knockback angle of up air so that it hits opponents upwards like Mario's.
- Remove the sourspot on The Fist and cut some of the starting frames off.
- Make down air autocancel and make it faster on beginning and end so that it's more like Fox's down air.

With those changes I feel Doc would soar to mid-high.

I wouldn't really raise the KB angle of u-air, purely because as it is, it has the potential to kill off the sides with SJP. What I'd do is decrease the KBG of u-air so it would have the potential to combo into at least itself twice, and act as almost a worse ZSS stair combo at the higher percentages. Instead of carrying the opponent vertically upwards, it would drag the opponent horizontally across, allowing SJP to kill easier. It's already possible to do this, albeit hard as hell. It could potentially be a reliable kill confirm for Doc.

(it does sound kinda ridiculous though)

 

[MarioMeteor]

I wouldn't really raise the KB angle of u-air, purely because as it is, it has the potential to kill off the sides with SJP. What I'd do is decrease the KBG of u-air so it would have the potential to combo into at least itself twice, and act as almost a worse ZSS stair combo at the higher percentages. Instead of carrying the opponent vertically upwards, it would drag the opponent horizontally across, allowing SJP to kill easier. It's already possible to do this, albeit hard as hell. It could potentially be a reliable kill confirm for Doc.

(it does sound kinda ridiculous though)

It can't kill off the sides at any reasonable percent unless you use it offstage, at which point you're better off using back air. I could see it sending people diagonally, so if you double jump up to them and they air dodge you get a free SJP.

 

[Furret24]

Hey, Doc actually won.

I feel like the Good Doctor is a shamefully overlooked character. I personally think he's bottom of mid tier or top of mid-low. I actually prefer playing Doc over Mario, but even I can't deny that Doc has some major flaws.

- His mobility on the ground is straight up *** (why does Dedede run faster than him?)
- His mobility in the air is arguably worse, with a subpar air speed and a pitiable recovery.
- His combo game leaves a lot to be desired, with some of his moves not having the combo potential that they should.
- His range is almost Jigglypuff levels of bad. Almost.
- His butter shoes stop his out of shield game from being as deadly as it should be.

While I do think that Dr. Doom is viable as a co-main (like how Boss plays him), he needs some work done before he's ready to strike out on his own. Namely:
- Increase his dashing speed from 1.3 to 1.5 (Luigi's dash speed.)
- Increase his air speed from .943 to 1.05 (Mii Gunner's air speed.)
- Increase Super Jump Punch's distance.
- Decrease Dr. Tornado's ending lag, starting lag, and increase the damage from 8% to 11%.
- Increase the scaling on late neutral air so that it becomes a KO move.
- Raise the knockback angle of up air so that it hits opponents upwards like Mario's.
- Remove the sourspot on The Fist and cut some of the starting frames off.
- Make down air autocancel and make it faster on beginning and end so that it's more like Fox's down air.

With those changes I feel Doc would soar to mid-high.

I agree with all that (especially dair), except making fair faster (removing sourspot is good though). It's already disgustingly powerful, especially if you remove it's sourspot. It's not like it's all that slow either.

 

[Wintermelon43]

As of righty now (4:30 PM for me), King Dedede and Doc. Mario are in a tie, and since the day's about to end, that isn't really what I wanted. I would like to explain though, for whenever there's a tie, I'll be using a random selection tool, so there's no real problem when that occurs. The tool picked Doc. Mario, so he's who we'll be doing today.

Anyways, here's the results from yesterday https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dPcJr_lNb_vzYWJRb-2HL34_dfluGP63NoP9peCVix4/edit?usp=sharing Edit: Results now have visual charts, hopefully that helps make it look less ugly

Today's poll for Doc Mario, please vote here if your interested in the Doctor.

Spoiler: Doc. Mario survey

http://goo.gl/forms/X47aEp5m2y

The poll to choose who goes next

Spoiler: Poll of tomorrow

http://strawpoll.me/6500453

And with that Doc. Mario's day has begun.
(And before anyone points it out, on one of the questions, his name is listed as Doc. Mari. I made like the world's lamest typo today lol)

Wait, where was that? I wanna vote....

 

[MarioMeteor]

I agree with all that (especially dair), except making fair faster (removing sourspot is good though). It's already disgustingly powerful, especially if you remove it's sourspot. It's not like it's all that slow either.

It's one of Doc's slowest moves. It doesn't KO until 105% in the middle of Battlefield anyway, so it's not like, Ike levels of strong. I'm not saying make it single digit frames, just cut maybe three starting frames off so that you actually have a chance of landing it without divine intervention.

 

[Zerp]

Wait, where was that? I wanna vote....

It was on the OP and on this post.

Spoiler

I thought we were doing this tomorrow? Whatever, we're doing it now I guess, since you guys already begun. Duck hunt's voting period will just be 2 days long instead of one since it started abruptly, and I need muh order.
Anyways, for Duck Hunt Duo, please vote on this little poll.

Spoiler: Duck Hunt Duo poll

http://goo.gl/forms/CHw3y3mF3c

(I'll update the OP with this, and some other things in a little bit, but I'm a bit busy right now)

It wasn't hidden away or anything, you must have just not noticed it I guess. Sorry that you missed it.
Anyways, just in case you missed the current poll (Doc. Mario), it's in the OP, my post above and right here.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh, I thought that link was the results of the which character poll

 

[Furret24]

It's one of Doc's slowest moves. It doesn't KO until 105% in the middle of Battlefield anyway, so it's not like, Ike levels of strong. I'm not saying make it single digit frames, just cut maybe three starting frames off so that you actually have a chance of landing it without divine intervention.

It kills before 100% pretty easily.

I guess I can't really argue with it being frame 13 though. :shrug:

 

[MarioMeteor]

It kills before 100% pretty easily.

I guess I can't really argue with it being frame 13 though. :shrug:

The only other alternative would be to give him true combos into it, and that would require essentially rebuilding ol Dr. House from the ground up. I don't think making it frame 10 would hurt that bad.

This is really personal, but I wish Dr. Mario's down smash sent people upwards like in Melee. That was one of the things I loved about Melee Doc.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Actually, I'd lvoe to know this:
How well does Smash 4's Doctor Mario Forward Air compare to Mario's sourspotted Forward Air from Project M? I remember that being fairly strong.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Really all Doc needs is more hitstun on U-air, slightly more distance on up B, and slightly less start-up on F-air. The first would help his combo game, especially to not get punished for doing a combo; the second would help his recovery, which at the moment is surprisingly short (even for Doc's standards) at times; the last would help secure kills with a D-throw to F-air combo at a wider range of percents.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Personally, I'd just give him more distance on Up-B and a slightly faster running speed.

 

[MarioMeteor]

And increase his traction, too. I honestly don't understand why it's so bad. I thought Mario was supposed to have sandpaper shoes.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Before, I always thought Doc was very underpowered compared to what Mario can do, even when I mained him. (Still do)
Then I started looking at Doc as his own character, watch some Doc tutorials, & tried out some tech new.
Now since more Doc mains have been coming out from the shadows, I fine Doc to be a fairly decent character.
His short 1st jump is blessing in disguise since it allows him to approach & space out opponents.
It still doesn't remove his weaknesses like shorter 2nd jump, easy to space out, lack of options from d-air, & borderline useless 2 custom Up-B.
But even then, he still shines pretty well where he stands.


So here's my old "non" biased list of changes I would Doc to receive:

• Jab 1: Base Dmg 2.8 < 3.5

• Jab 2: Base Dmg 1.68 < 2.5

• Ftilt (All Angles): Base Dmg 7.84 < 9.1

• Utilt: Base Knockback: 28 < 23

• Utilt: Knockback Growth 130 < 140

• Fsmash (All Angles): Add Super Armor on frames 7-15

• Usmash: Change trajectory from 130° to 158°

• Dsmash (1st Hit): Base Dmg 11.2 < 13.4

• Dsmash (2nd Hit): Base Dmg 13.44 < 17.2

• Fthrow: Base Knockback 60 < 30

• Fthrow: Knockback Growth 60 < 32

• Uthrow: Base Dmg 7.84 < 5

• Uthrow: Base Knockback 65 < 30

• Uthrow: Knock Growth: 70 < 30

• Dthrow: Base Dmg 5.6 < 4.5

• Dthrow: Base Knockback 75 < 45

• Dthrow: Knockback Growth 45 < 21

• Bthrow: Base Knockback 70 < 85

• Bthrow: Knockback Growth 60 < 95

• Nair (Sweet Spot/Late): Base Dmg 8.96 < 10.5

• Fair: Landing Lag Decreased 28 < 14

• Fair: Replaces sour spot hit-boxes with new sweet spot hit-boxes.

• Dair: Landing Lag Decreased 21 < 10

• Dair: Gains a meteor effect similar to Kirby's on frames 27 (5th hit)

• Megavitamins: Base Dmg 5.6 < 7.1 (Vitamins don't reduce in damage if hit on frames 21-69)

• Megavitamins: 9 more frames of hitstun

• Super Sheet (Ground): Keeps momentum from previous walk or dash movement on frames 1-6, then slows down on frames 7-12

• Super Sheet (Air): Gains an added increase of momentum of 1.430 on frame 7 (This should help with Doc's approach options & recovery) Example.

• Super Jump Punch (Sweet Spot): Base Dmg 13.44 < 16.5

• Super Jump Punch (Sour Spot/Late): Base Knockback 64 < 90

• Super Jump Punch (Sour Spot/Late): Knockback Growth 66 < 84

• Super Jump Punch: Add Super Armor on frames 3-5

• Super Jump Punch: Keeps momentum from jump until frame 28. (Similar to Roy's up special)

• Dr. Tornado: Base Dmg 8.5 <

• Dr. Tornado (Final Hit): Change trajectory 45° < 30°

• Dr. Tornado (Aerial): Increase vertical height on frame 40 (Also should help with recovery)

• Dash Speed: Increase 1.312 < 1.430

• Higher Double Jump (Equal to Mario's)

• Weight: Increase 98 < 104

Yeah, I was little crazy on Doc back then.