The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Let's not forget that the future update that will support Corrin and Bayonetta may make some more gameplay adjustments.

 

[Deleted member]

Let's not forget that the future update that will support Corrin and Bayonetta may make some more gameplay adjustments.

Yeah, that's actually true. When those two come out it definitely won't be the last patch, especially of both need certain adjustments.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yeah, that's actually true. When those two come out it definitely won't be the last patch, especially of both need certain adjustments.

I think they're just gonna make it the final patch anyway

 

[GreenMonkey]

I think they're just gonna make it the final patch anyway

They might not, tho! The Final presentation might signify the end of DLC announcements, but there might still be balance patches!

We just have to be hopeful and wish for the best...

 

[Wintermelon43]

They might not, tho! The Final presentation might signify the end of DLC announcements, but there might still be balance patches!

We just have to be hopeful and wish for the best...

I hope

 

[FamilyTeam]

I hope we get some adjustments for Sheik. However... sometimes I wonder if Sheik is better left alone.
I've played a lot of games where the dev's definition of "nerfing" something considered OP is nerfing them to the ground and making them completely useless. So, who would you rather have? OP Sheik, or useless "butt of jokes" Sheik?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I hope we get some adjustments for Sheik. However... sometimes I wonder if Sheik is better left alone.
I've played a lot of games where the dev's definition of "nerfing" something considered OP is nerfing them to the ground and making them completely useless. So, who would you rather have? OP Sheik, or useless "butt of jokes" Sheik?

Sheik has definitely been buffed up a bit too much when you consider that her air speed was originally at below average levels. I guess you could give Sheik the Antiglide equipment to make her feel a bit more like her Melee incarnation.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Sheik has definitely been buffed up a bit too much when you consider that her air speed was originally at below average levels. I guess you could give Sheik the Antiglide equipment to make her feel a bit more like her Melee incarnation.

I'm just scared the devs will make her like Brawl Sheik, brrrrrrr...
Imagine the horror...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm just scared the devs will make her like Brawl Sheik, brrrrrrr...
Imagine the horror...

What I find to be very ironic is that even though Meta Knight is no longer the monster he once was, he actually received an air speed buff for Smash 3DS / Wii U. Back in Brawl, Meta Knight had one of the worst air speed statistics in the game, but I guess being able to glide helped him bypass that weakness.

 

[Furret24]

What I find to be very ironic is that even though Meta Knight is no longer the monster he once was, he actually received an air speed buff for Smash 3DS / Wii U. Back in Brawl, Meta Knight had one of the worst air speed statistics in the game, but I guess being able to glide helped him bypass that weakness.

Nobody's perfect, not even Brawl Meta Knight, even if low speed is the only thing he doesn't excel in.

 

[FamilyTeam]

What I find to be very ironic is that even though Meta Knight is no longer the monster he once was, he actually received an air speed buff for Smash 3DS / Wii U. Back in Brawl, Meta Knight had one of the worst air speed statistics in the game, but I guess being able to glide helped him bypass that weakness.

Brawl was... a weird game. I tried playing it with my friend, recently... and we just couldn't. It feels so awkward. I never realised how slow and floaty it was until I replayed it after playing Melee, PM and Smash 4 for so long.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Brawl was... a weird game. I tried playing it with my friend, recently... and we just couldn't. It feels so awkward. I never realised how slow and floaty it was until I replayed it after playing Melee, PM and Smash 4 for so long.

Brawl was okie for me. At least there was a Grass Pokemon there...

But mechanics-wise, it was a tad slow, but the weirdest part was the random tripping.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Nobody's perfect, not even Brawl Meta Knight, even if low speed is the only thing he doesn't excel in.

Still, that air speed buff seemed unnecessary for Meta Knight. Kirby deserved an air speed buff way more, but instead, his air speed got nerfed.

Similarly, it feels very painful to see Peach have a weaker air speed stat than Bowser now, especially when you consider that her air speed ranking in Melee is set at top 5 levels.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I will forever remember this moment:
Something like, 6-7 years ago (2009 was 7 years ago already?!...), I was playing a match with my neighbours in some dumb custom stage, and I managed to trip three times in a row before I managed to dash successfully.
I never forgot that moment, and I never will. When people say that tripping is alright, I always tell them that moment.

 

[Koiba]

Still, that air speed buff seemed unnecessary for Meta Knight. Kirby deserved an air speed buff way more, but instead, his air speed got nerfed.

But in the Kirby games Meta Knight is depicted as a fast character dealing quick, strong blows.


And Kirby's main transportation in the air is, well, literally floating in the air. He doesn't go too fast and I think they captured that pretty well.


Shiek's airspeed makes sense imo. I mean, she is a ninja. Having a ninja that's not fast would be kinda lame don't cha think?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Shiek's airspeed makes sense imo. I mean, she is a ninja. Having a ninja that's not fast would be kinda lame don't cha think?

Sheik is already fast on the ground though, and even though her air speed was poor in Melee, she still had a top 5 ranking in the tiers.

 

[Koiba]

and even though her air speed was poor in Melee, she still had a top 5 ranking in the tiers.

That means her air speed probably didn't matter that much to her. It wasn't a sticking point in her playstyle. She can edgeguard and has great aerials.



Then again me and competitive melee don't match together at all

 

[Furret24]

Still, that air speed buff seemed unnecessary for Meta Knight. Kirby deserved an air speed buff way more, but instead, his air speed got nerfed.

Similarly, it feels very painful to see Peach have a weaker air speed stat than Bowser now, especially when you consider that her air speed ranking in Melee is set at top 5 levels.

Honestly, I think all of the Kirby characters needed an airspeed buff, considering how terrible they all were in Brawl.

Not very painful to see Peach have poor airspeed, mainly because her aerial game is fantastic either way, and she's already a good character. I find buffing her air speed unnecessary because of that, atleast to that degree.

 

[Wnyke]

The only dream I have is nerf in rolling, working similar to shields...

Something like this, the more times you use the less invincibility you have or the more end lag you get... recovering over time like shields...

Cause rolling around at the speed of sound is not what I want to watch in matches...

 

[Bowserboy3]

I agree with the Sheik nerf, it's very logical actually.

Also, when people say 's dash attack has a bad hitbox I lol. It just comes out late, it being one of the best dash attacks in the game doesn't hurt either. It opens up opportunities for followups into so many moves.

As Samus is one of my secondaries, I want to expand on what Feelicks said, as what he stated is true. I can see why it is considered a bad move/hitbox. It can whiff at close range due to it coming out two frames later (Frame 10 from Frame 8 in Brawl). However, that alone should not be enough for it to be considered bad, not when it has plenty of different utilities. Let's break it down...

Clean hit at low percents can lead into Up Air combos.
Late hit at low percents can also lead into Up Air combos.
Clean hit at mid percents can occasionally lead into Up Air or Screw Attack (depending on the character's weight).
Late hit at high percents can lead into Up Air or Screw Attack.
Clean hit at very high percents (140%ish) can kill.
It also has next to no cooldown, and can cross opponents up.

Samus's Dash Attack may have an odd hitbox timing (that was changed for no real reason) but calling it a bad/flawed move because of just that is plain ridiculous, especially when it has this much utility. IF they ever buff it's active frame back to frame 8 in a patch, it could arguably be the best dash attack in the game.

The only moves of Samus's which I consider truly bad are Jab and Down Smash. Jab fails to link, though even this can be worked around. Jab to Dtilt is more reliable at percents when Jab 2 would not hit. Even so, it's not guaranteed, even if it is a work around. Having a Jab that links would be a great option for Samus, as it would give her a reliable, quick and useful move to get opponents away from her. Dtilt is one of her current best moves for this, which comes out frame 6. Jab 1 comes out on frame 3, so if it actually linked, it would be a great, quick "get off me" option, which would help her immensely. Down Smash is incredibly weak in knockback, so it doesn't kill until 200% unless there is some extremely rare occasion where it is fresh and you have high rage at the edge of the stage, when I have had it kill at I think 160%. It doesn't even have high damage to warrant using it. It should either have it's damage buffed by about 5% or have it's KBG increased.

Other moves that need a re-jig include Ftilt and Super Missiles. These moves aren't bad so to speak, but are very odd and annoying. Ftilt has that awful sourspot that screws you over. That though is not useless, as at very high percents, it can lead into a Charge Shot. Even so, before it had the sourspot it could still lead into Charge Shot, but just at earlier percents thanks to slightly higher knockback and hitstun. Super Missiles aren't bad, as they deal respectable damage, but they really could do with more knockback to make them safer and more worth using. I'm not even asking for them to kill as early as they did in Melee, but please let them kill sometime before 210% please... Even 170% would be nice.

 

[FamilyTeam]

The only dream I have is nerf in rolling, working similar to shields...

Something like this, the more times you use the less invincibility you have or the more end lag you get... recovering over time like shields...

Cause rolling around at the speed of sound is not what I want to watch in matches...

ROLLING AROUND AT THE SPEED OF SO-OUND, GOT PLACES TO GO GOTTA FOLLOW MY RAINBOW!
*Ahem*
Maybe we could make rolling get stale as well. Either that, or make it slower the more damage you have. The previous games did something like that with your ledge options if you were above 100% (Get-Up Attack got massively slow, roll-to-stage got quite slower), maybe that could work.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Honestly, I think all of the Kirby characters needed an airspeed buff, considering how terrible they all were in Brawl.

Not very painful to see Peach have poor airspeed, mainly because her aerial game is fantastic either way, and she's already a good character. I find buffing her air speed unnecessary because of that, atleast to that degree.

The funny thing is, tier-wise, Kirby was ranked the lowest of all the Kirby series characters in Brawl. Dedede may have the worst air speed of any character, but his viability in Brawl came from his chain-grab game and efficient aerials. However, Smash 3DS / Wii U really hit Dedede hard with the removal of chain-grabs, and some of his aerial attacks got messed up as well (most notably his back aerial).

In regards to buffing Peach's air speed, maybe not to top 5 levels like in Melee, but at least fast enough to compete with Greninja's air speed. Fortunately, the Glider equipment can actually do that for Peach, since a single piece of Glider equipment raises her air speed to 1.1875 (barely faster than Greninja's air speed of 1.18).

 

[Deleted member]

Can we all talk about for a bit to keep the discussion going? I feel like he's a pretty interesting character to talk about, especially with how underrepped he is.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Actually, here's an interesting thing we could do: We could maybe try to organize how represented the characters are in tournaments.
We already talked about how there aren't many around and far too many going 0-2 in tournaments, which makes people not know Pit's potentinal and think Lucina is as bad as Brawl's Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, here's an interesting thing we could do: We could maybe try to organize how represented the characters are in tournaments.
We already talked about how there aren't many around and far too many going 0-2 in tournaments, which makes people not know Pit's potentinal and think Lucina is as bad as Brawl's Ganondorf.

Pit and Pittoo have pretty notable players that get good results (Pink Fresh, CHOMPY, Nairo, Earth) though both here in the West and in Japan even though they have much better results in the latter country. I don't know too many Lucinas though, unfortunately.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Still think it would be a good idea to make that. But yeah, we'd need to know the top players that play the characters and their tournament history, like Dabuz plays Rosa, Ally and Anti play Mario, etc.

 

[Deleted member]

Still think it would be a good idea to make that. But yeah, we'd need to know the top players that play the characters and their tournament history, like Dabuz plays Rosa, Ally and Anti play Mario, etc.

Agreed with this. I feel like we need a system where we focus on discussing the characters we voted on, which were these:



Maybe we discuss a certain character each day? We need to get something going.

 

[Furret24]

Agreed with this. I feel like we need a system where we focus on discussing the characters we voted on, which were these:



Maybe we discuss a certain character each day? We need to get something going.

I vote we discuss each character here one per day. We can talk about what buffs/nerfs they need, their competitive viability, etc.

How about we start with Duck Hunt tomorrow and go from there?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Agree with the one per day thing

 

[Zerp]

You know what, the one character per day idea sounds pretty cool, I think that's what we should do.

How about we start with Duck Hunt tomorrow and go from there?

Sure.

What about we start with Duck Hunt Duo tomorrow like Furret24 said, and then we decide the next character each day by strawpoll? Any objections?

 

[Deleted member]

You know what, the one character per day idea sounds pretty cool, I think that's what we should do.


Sure.

What about we start with Duck Hunt Duo tomorrow like Furret24 said, and then we decide the next character each day by strawpoll? Any objections?

I'm all for this, I think we should do it!

Maybe we could edit the topic title to include what character we're discussing that day too?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I'm all for this idea. So The only thing I know about is that his smash attacks don't connect half the time and he has trouble taking stocks.

 

[Deleted member]

is a really interesting character to me, particularly since the Japanese consider him high tier while he's still chopped liver here in the West in pretty much any level of play.

There's no doubt that most of his problems come from his character build. Duck Hunt's light so he can't survive very long, and even though he's designed as a camping character most of the time said camping is ineffective due to his laggy, predictable projectiles. He pretty much gets beat by anybody with a reliable reflector, good air movement or juggling ability.

His aerials and jab are decent moves, and the latter is annoyingly hard to DI out of. Even his tilts are pretty alright moves, particularly down tilt. I feel like Duck Hunt needs a more capable grab game. His pummel is really good, so it'd be great for something to supplement that. His recovery is a pretty notable flaw of his, especially if you're far below the stage due to it's lumberingly slow horizontal and vertical movement. It's just outright spike food.

So what does Duck Hunt need to be viable? Better grab combos, some sort of improvement to his recovery, more reliable defensive game and making his bloody smash attacks connect properly. I understand the duo is very comedic and spastic in nature, but it just outright sucks when your damn KO moves barely connect at high percents.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There probably isn't much else to say about Duck Hunt's issues. The duo struggles to make quick KOs, their stage control game is hindered by laggy and predictable projectiles, and their recovery is quite lousy with its poor vertical momentum. And of course, the hitboxes for the duo's smash attacks are just very inconvenient, and can even be stopped by just grabbing them.

 

[melto]

Marth
Fair Ending lag reduced
Dair Spike hitbox increased

Mr. Game & Watch
DSmash startup reduced

Mario
USmash Increase KB, reliable kill move even on heavies.
Nair from 8% to 10%

Jigglypuff
Pound angle from 75 to 90
Rest angle from 88 to 75

Robin
Running Speed increased
Grab Range slightly increased

Zelda
Side B now does not results in freefall state anymore.
Nair from 8% to 12%

Little Mac
Up B (Aerial) moves the same distance as grounded Up B
K.O. Punch kills 20% later.
Smash Attacks deals 5% less and KB slightly reduced.

 

[Commissar]

Marth
Little Mac
Up B (Aerial) moves the same distance as grounded Up B
K.O. Punch kills 20% later.
Smash Attacks deals 5% less and KB slightly reduced.

I heavily disagree with Up B (Aerial) moving as far as grounded. He could go from off screen to ledge with the magnet ledges in this game.

 

[Furret24]

Mr. Game & Watch
DSmash startup reduced

Mario
USmash Increase KB, reliable kill move even on heavies.

Jigglypuff
Rest angle from 88 to 75

Little Mac
Up B (Aerial) moves the same distance as grounded Up B
K.O. Punch kills 20% later.
Smash Attacks deals 5% less and KB slightly reduced.

Vermin does not need a speed buff.

Mario's usmash is already crazy good. It does not need to be buffed.

Why are you nerfing Rest and Mac?

 

[Deleted member]

Not to mention we're supposed to be discussing Duck Hunt right now. Let's get back on topic.

 

[Furret24]

What do people think of Wild Gunmen?

I find them to be Duck Hunt's best projectile, even if they're not all that good.

 

[melto]

Vermin does not need a speed buff.

Mario's usmash is already crazy good. It does not need to be buffed.

Why are you nerfing Rest and Mac?

I'm a Mario main, maybe that's why lol !
I think mario need either a stronger kill move, or more kill options.

About Rest, i meant more like a buff, while would allow to kill earlier on the side of the field.

I heavily disagree with Up B (Aerial) moving as far as grounded. He could go from off screen to ledge with the magnet ledges in this game.

I totally don't think mac deserve this treatment, I mean, it should have a better recovery, while nerfing a bit the power grounded.

Sorry for the Off-topic.