The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's Forward Air does not need to kill earlier, what is this madness? He has combos into it out of D-Throw against virtually every fastfaller in the game and on Smashville it kills them disgustingly early (I've seen ZSS die at 67%). The move's sweetspot hits harder than Ganon's old Forward Air before Ganon's got buffed, except it has a vertical, harder to DI angle and you have to sweetspot it by making a basic DI read out of D-Throw. Like, the move's been buffed twice, it was super underpowered before but it's not anymore.

The only things I'd change with Doc are:

- Make Pill IASA frame 43
OR
- Increase dash speed by a little bit (maybe to 1.45)

Both of these IMO would be excessive, but one or the other would be incredibly sufficient. I think the character's flaws are there so that he actually has them. Dr. Tornado's looping hits could stand to do .5% more damage (the final hit's damage should not be altered or else bad things will happen) and uh.....well, that's it, actually.

 

[Deleted member]

Doc's Forward Air does not need to kill earlier, what is this madness? He has combos into it out of D-Throw against virtually every fastfaller in the game and on Smashville it kills them disgustingly early (I've seen ZSS die at 67%). The move's sweetspot hits harder than Ganon's old Forward Air before Ganon's got buffed, except it has a vertical, harder to DI angle and you have to sweetspot it by making a basic DI read out of D-Throw. Like, the move's been buffed twice, it was super underpowered before but it's not anymore.

The only things I'd change with Doc are:

- Make Pill IASA frame 43
OR
- Increase dash speed by a little bit (maybe to 1.45)

Both of these IMO would be excessive, but one or the other would be incredibly sufficient. I think the character's flaws are there so that he actually has them. Dr. Tornado's looping hits could stand to do .5% more damage (the final hit's damage should not be altered or else bad things will happen) and uh.....well, that's it, actually.

Exactly this. Doc is pretty much perfectly functioning as he is. Any more tweaks we get after this would be really pleasant icing on the cake. <3

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Dr. Mario sure lost a decent amount of his viability after Melee. His movement is slower than Mario's, and his recovery is just sad as well. Mario is fortunate that his Cape can help his recovery, which is really something that Dr. Mario needs for his Super Sheet.

It really doesn't. Mario gets no height from Cape stalling. Mario has a better recovery because of his air speed and Up-B Distance, not his Cape. Doc having a stall property on his Sheet would make him much worse off at mixing up his landings.

I think that Doc is pretty solid, but there are a few things that would make him much less vulnerable.

1. Faster ground speed and air speed/air acceleration - This is pretty important. In general, run speeds should be less spread out overall.
2. Higher second jump height and Up-B Distance - Also important. I don't know why his Up-B doesn't go as high as Mario's.
3. Less laggy projectile. Mario's fireball should be adjusted similarly as well, but I'm not sure if it should match the landing reductions that Doc gets (if he got them).

Minor Things
4. Up-Air being tweaked somehow. It has great frame data, but it's not rewarding.
5. Down-Air Start Up reduced.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It really doesn't. Mario gets no height from Cape stalling. Mario has a better recovery because of his air speed and Up-B Distance, not his Cape. Doc having a stall property on his Sheet would make him much worse off for mixing up his landing.

Interesting, because it often felt like Cape helped Mario's recovery to an extent, but maybe that's more for his Gust Cape custom special.

 

[Deleted member]

Doc would be a monster if you gave him a faster air speed. I don't think we want that. Like, a better walk and dash speed is understandable but air speed? Noooooo.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Doc would be a monster if you gave him a faster air speed. I don't think we want that. Like, a better walk and dash speed is understandable but air speed? Noooooo.

It doesn't have to match Mario's. I think it would improve his landing options more than anything else.

Having said that, I definitely prioritize run/walk speed buffs over air speed/acceleration buffs.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It doesn't have to match Mario's. I think it would improve his landing options more than anything else.

Having said that, I definitely prioritize run/walk speed buffs over air speed/acceleration buffs.

We don't want him going any faster in the air with that Bair of his. Don't give me nightmares man!

I would say Dash Speed if they were to change any mobility specs, but I'd really just rather have a good zoning tool.

 

[Deleted member]

It doesn't have to match Mario's. I think it would improve his landing options more than anything else.

Having said that, I definitely prioritize run/walk speed buffs over air speed/acceleration buffs.

I can sympathize. Although Doc doesn't have much that trouble landing, especially since he has a good fastfall. They really need to just make dair better by reducing it's landing lag and having it be safer on shield.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Doc would be a monster if you gave him a faster air speed. I don't think we want that. Like, a better walk and dash speed is understandable but air speed? Noooooo.

I guess one option would be to increase Dr. Mario's speed to 86% of Mario's speed.

Walk Speed: 0.946
Run Speed: 1.376
Air Speed: 0.989

Dr. Mario's air speed would still stay below average, while he would outwalk Captain Falcon, and outrun King Dedede.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

We don't want him going any faster in the air with that Bair of his. Don't give me nightmares man!

I would say Dash Speed if they were to change any mobility specs, but I'd really just rather have a good zoning tool.

Whizzing through the air with a move that looks and feels like a Torpedo. Sounds like a dream to me .

 

[Deleted member]

I guess one option would be to increase Dr. Mario's speed to 86% of Mario's speed.

Walk Speed: 0.946
Run Speed: 1.376
Air Speed: 0.989

Dr. Mario's air speed would still stay below average, while he would outwalk Captain Falcon, and outrun King Dedede.

Sounds reasonable. There's no reason why Dedede should be running faster than Doc at all, lmao

 

[TTTTTsd]

That speed boost is reasonable but I'd honestly just bite the bullet and give him 1.45 dash speed and leave his other mobility specs as is.

Assuming he gets anything like that anyways. Honestly the movement speed increase is more likely than, say, a good fireball, so I guess it'd work.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Sounds reasonable. There's no reason why Dedede should be running faster than Doc at all, lmao

Yeah it is insulting enough that Dedede outwalks Dr. Mario, but outrunning him as well is just twice as insulting.

 

[Zerp]

Heya guys, I have a quick question I'd like to ask, how many of you voted for Little Mac?

Reason I'm asking is, I checked the poll recently, and I have a suspicion that Little Mac didn't really get 13 votes. You know, especially since last poll only had 11 votes altogether, and you'd think that the votes would be spread out a little more than 59% in favor of Mac, especially since, going off the top f my head, I haven't seen a Little Mac main post here yet, if no one speaks up, and I can't get proof that even just 2 or 3 people voted for Mac, I'm going to have to assume it's voter fraud and disqualify Little Mac. Which sucks :/.

Seriously, please don't commit voter fraud, because 1. anyone who's even half competent can tell when you do it, and 2. because you did that, even if L. Mac would have won legitimately, I'm kind of forced to disqualify him which isn't fair for any L.Mac mains either. Honestly, I'm kind of disgusted someone would commit fraud on something like this, there's really not much to win you know. Please don't do that ever again, whoever you are, thank you.

 

[Deleted member]

Heya guys, I have a quick question I'd like to ask, how many of you voted for Little Mac?

Reason I'm asking is, I checked the poll recently, and I have a suspicion that Little Mac didn't really get 13 votes. You know, especially since last poll only had 11 votes altogether, and you'd think that the votes would be spread out a little more than 59% in favor of Mac, especially since, going off the top f my head, I haven't seen a Little Mac main post here yet, if no one speaks up, and I can't get proof that even 2 or 3 people voted for Mac, I'm going to have to assume it's voter fraud.

Strawpoll is not accurate in the slightest and is very suspectible to vote bots & proxy bombing. It's better to just ask people here in this thread for what character they want.

Since Dedede was in the lead before the flood of Little Mac votes, let's just do him today.

 

[Zerp]

Strawpoll is not accurate in the slightest and is very suspectible to vote bots & proxy bombing. It's better to just ask people here in this thread for what character they want.

Since Dedede was in the lead before the flood of Little Mac votes, let's just do him today.

Yeah, Dedede will go later today, and from now on I'll just ask for people to state what character they want, then I'll just tally up votes in this thread by the end of the day.

It was really foolish and stupid of me to actually expect people to play fair, sorry, that's my bad.
Edit:
Here's Doc. mario's results

Spoiler: Results

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/143KXqu39ReLsImqVCngZazGSo7u6UShrfEApLeoT2SQ/edit?usp=sharing

and here's today's poll for King Dedede

Spoiler: Dedede

http://goo.gl/forms/ohz2gycKxY

Now it's Dedede's day, so if your interested, please vote on him!
Also, to decide the next character, instead of using a straw poll, we're using a different method now. Please list any of these characters

Spoiler: characters

as your vote for today at the bottom of your post, or just put it anywhere in your post in color, bold or any other way you think will make it easy to see. Thank you.

 

[Eugene Wang]

What I see about Dedede: He loses the neutral, and his slowness and large frame make it super difficult for him to take it back. Because of this, he finds it very difficult to leverage the strengths he does have.

In my mind, a competitive Dedede would be able to use his long reach and gordos to deal moderate from afar, and use that giant mallet of his and his grabs to keep them at that distance. He would still remain combo food and have trouble taking back the neutral, but such a weakness would be compensated by his weight and recovery, giving him more chances to take back control. And to finish, Dedede wouldn't have easy kill moves, instead using his keepaway moves to get his opponents off the stage and using gordos, long disjoints, and strong recovery to edgeguard effectively for kills.

If I had to suggest buffs:
* Make reflected gordos much slower (Let's be honest. We're not going to get less reflectable gordos because of For Glory.)
* Make it much easier to embed gordos into walls
* Increase hitbox sizes of almost every attack
* Give Jet Hammer double shield damage, and give it much more knockback growth so it can deliver KOs at early percents

Edit:

 

[Deleted member]

I have an absolute ton to talk about when it comes to Dedede. He's one of my favorite characters in any sort of media, and he's one of the faces of one of the most important Nintendo franchises in terms of personal significance to me. I've pretty much have pledged myself to maining him ever since Brawl just because I love the big oaf too much no matter how much he may fall here in Smash 4. With that said, lemme go over Dedede's strength, weaknesses, and what he needs to be balanced better and have more relevance in the meta.

Masahiro Sakurai

King Dedede. The Big D. D3. The Triple D. The Purveyor of Dededestruction. Daydayday. You know the name. Let's talk about him.

Dedede is designed as a defensively minded/zoner character, as that can be told by his massive disjoints. That's the benefit of having a giant wooden hammer, it seems! His Gordos are his sole projectile and can set up for combos, edgeguard, or even kill at higher percents. Before I delve into Dedede's weak spots in his design, let me go over his strengths and then later explain why his weaknesses counter and end up outweighing his strengths:

• He. never. ever. ****ing. dies. Thanks to being the third heaviest character in the game and having a very fast falling speed, Dedede's incredibly hard to KO on the sides and especially vertically. Not only that, but he's equally as difficult to edgeguard or gimp thanks to his multiple jumps and Super Dedede Jump providing super armor on the rising portion while granting great vertical distance. A Dedede that manages his jumps well and recovers low will almost always make it back to the stage safely.
• Down throw. Oh man his down throw is a blessing for a character like him. At low percents it leads into all his aerials except down air and comboes into up tilt as well. After a down throw is followed up with up air it can be SHFFed, which leads into regrabs and more up airs. This can rack up 50-60% on most characters if done correctly.
• Dedede hits hard. His forward smash can kill most of the cast as low as 30% if fully charged, and dash attack is absolutely deadly with rage. Back air and down smash are quick-ish and rather reliable KO options, and the former is safe on shield if spaced well while the latter is great for punishing rolls or setting up edgeguards if it's done at the ledge thanks to its semi-spike angle.
• Gordos are great for covering ledge get-up options, and them being able to be tilted straight, up or down allows for useful mixups with the move. Dedede even has two setups with Gordo at the ledge where if an up-tilted Gordo hits somebody shielding combined with Dedede's forward smash, it breaks a full shield. An up-tilted Gordo covers standard and jumping ledge getup, and Dedede can follow up with either forward smash or back air while the opponent is in hitstun.
• Up air is great for juggles, KOing, and has a deceptively long-lasting hitbox that beats out moves like and 's down air, Yoshi Bomb, Bowser Bomb and even in some cases Rock Smash.
• Neutral air is a sex kick most superheavies wish they could have. It comes out fast, has versatile use out of a shorthop, KOs, and FF nairs can set up into grab combos or Dedede's aerials.
• Down tilt is a genuinely great OoS and defensive option that comes out quick with little to no risk in its use and set up edgeguards at the ledge. It can even be used to cover a whiffed forward smash or down smash. Forward tilt comes out relatively fast and is good for spacing too.

But unfortunately, Dedede definitely has a ton of prominent weaknesses that bring him down as a character. Said weaknesses are why he struggles to compete consistently at top level and why he has such an awful matchup spread. To name them, here they are:

• His frame data is beyond godawful. He doesn't have a single move that comes out before frame 10 except for down tilt, neutral air and his standing & dash grabs.And that's all taking into account down tilt is his fastest move even though it comes out on frame 6. The animation for Gordo Toss lasts 58 frames. That is quite literally a second long. It's disgusting. If you miss anything other than Dedede's safer moves, you will be sorely punished for it.
• Almost everything Dedede does has a stunning lack of safety. His only truly safe move on shield is back air, and forward smash and down smash are debatable. In a game like Smash 4 where having safety is very important, this is a glaring issue for him. Not even a move like forward tilt is safe on shield thanks to its poor FAFs.
• Like any other superheavy, he's combo food. However, there are attributes that make him probably the easiest character in the game to combo. Due to having the worst airspeed in the game and having the second fastest falling speed, Dedede has a very hard time escaping air traps and being combo'd in general.
• Gordos are probably the most fragile projectile in the game, and easily backfire when thrown in midrange due to the fact they get reflected by any move that does at least 2%, which is literally every single move in the game barring 's Blaster.
• Jet Hammer is just outright garbage. I don't even have to explain this one.
• Due to his size, having a poor projectile and lacking a reflector, he has nothing to combat camping or projectiles in general.
• He loses hard to lame play. Very hard. Like if he comes across a who just spams Chef he can't approach him at all and has to just eat it (literally, lmao) or a intentionally campy or who throws out small Shadow Balls/Charge Shots and missiles a lot.
• For a heavyweight, he's surprisingly weak. He has no kill confirms to speak of whatsoever, meaning he has to work very hard to get KOs on opponents in the first place. And barely any of his moves reliably KO before 80% unlike characters such as , & , and his moves that hit like tanks (forward smash and dash attack) are incredibly laggy.
• Outside of down throw, his throw game sucks. Back throw sends opponents too high up and has no practical KOing power, putting opponents in an advantage state. Forward throw's angle is poor and still leaves opponents in a good position even if you throw them off the ledge and is again too weak to KO, and up throw does nothing useful and doesn't lead into his aerials at all and is also prone to DI.

With all these, Dedede has a lot that needs to be addressed. The main flaw with Dedede is that although he's defensively minded, his defense options are mediocre anyway and when said defense are penetrated he just outright falls apart. I'm going to amalgamate some stuff I've said previously in this thread and just list it down along with some explanations. My proposed buffs for Dedede are...

• Forward air and back air's hitboxes are made to match the animations. These moves constantly whiff when they look like they shouldn't, and even make shadow hits at close range. This would be a huge buff for Dedede alone. and got hitbox fixes, after all.
• Make neutral air and forward air autocancel out of a shorthop, decrease their landing lag. Back air already autocancels out of a shorthop, having these two aerials would not only improve Dedede's aerial game but make his landings safer in general. Dedede shouldn't be punished for attempting to wall out his opponents.
• Make the startup on down air not disgusting and increase the sweetspot size. Pipe dream but eh, it'd be cool to see this happen.
• Increase the knockback/damage on forward air and make it a suitable kill move when onstage. Right now, forward air is an outright crap move. It deals negligible damage comapred to the rest of Dedede's moves (it does 12%), does little knockback, and has much more landing lag than back air so it's virtually of no reward to use.
  
• Forward and back throws can now kill from above 115% near the ledge, forward throw sends at a semi-spike angle. You're telling me that a giant penguin with a wooden mallet is whacking you and it currently doesn't kill until near above 180%? What is this madness? If Dedede got this buff he'd have so much less trouble at taking stocks, and it'd put him in line with the other superheavies who all have kill throws (except ... if only he got one too.)
• Decrease the startup and ending lag on Inhale. There's literally no reason for Inhale to be so damn laggy especially after 's Inhale got a buff and we have's Chomp that literally covers every single ledge getup option and can outright shut down some character's approaches. Inhale getting this buff would allow Dedede to have a usable defensive option and landing mixup.
• Jet Hammer now has super armor frames at full charge, and takes less time to charge up. Another pipe dream buff of mine, but it'd make the move somewhat less awful I guess.
• Super Dedede Jump breaks a full shield when landed on somebody onstage if all hitboxes connect. Oh my god there is literally no reason for the move not to do this already. Dedede is literally falling on his opponent with all his girth and yet their shield still stays up. This'd give Dedede a deadly punish option.
• Dedede's air speed is increased (0.658 -> 0.9). Practically near Bowser's air speed. It'd still be on the lower end of the cast, but not absolute rock bottom.
• Up smash has less startup/ending lag and does more damage, and the sourspot at the move's start is removed. Dedede has probably got the worst up smash in the game due to how awfully slow it is and having a surprising lack of kill power. The move should be retooled so Dedede can have a tool to vertical KOs other than up air.
• The sourspot on up tilt is removed, and its startup/ending lag is decreased while having the same damage and knockback.
• Increase the damage reflection threshold for Gordos from 2% to either the range of 4-6%. This would immensely help Dedede in some matchups, and actually force opponents to use a stronger move to reflect Gordos back and not just do the first hit of a jab. It'd also give him a tool against characters who can just camp him out.

So yeah that's all I gotta say. This was way too long lol

By the way: I vote for .

 

[Furret24]

* Increase hitbox sizes of almost every attack

?

I don't really have much to say about Dedede that hasn't already been said, except that the large disjoint on most of his moves allows him to play safer than most heavys.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I have an absolute ton to talk about when it comes to Dedede. He's one of my favorite characters in any sort of media, and he's one of the faces of one of the most importannt Nintendo franchises in terms of personal significance to me. I've pretty much have pledged myself to maining him ever since Brawl just because I love the big oaf too much no matter how much he may fall here in Smash 4. With that said, lemme go over Dedede's strength, weaknesses, and what he needs to be balanced better and have more relevance in the meta.

Masahiro Sakurai

King Dedede. The Big D. The Purveyor of Dededestruction. Daydayday. You know the name. Let's talk about him.

Dedede is designed as a defensively minded/zoner character, as that can be told by his massive disjoints. That's the benefit of having a giant wooden hammer, it seems! His Gordos are his sole projectile and can set up for combos, edgeguard, or even kill at higher percents. Before I delve into Dedede's weak spots in his design, let me go over his strengths and then later explain why his weaknesses counter and end up outweighing his strengths:

• He. never. ever. ****ing. dies. Thanks to being the third heaviest character in the game and having a very fast falling speed, Dedede's incredibly hard to KO on the sides and especially vertically. Not only that, but he's equally as difficult to edgeguard or gimp thanks to his multiple jumps and Super Dedede Jump providing super armor on the rising portion while granting great vertical distance. A Dedede that manages his jumps well and recovers low will almost always make it back to the stage safely.
• Down throw. Oh man his down throw is a blessing for a character like him. At low percents it leads into all his aerials except down air and comboes into up tilt as well. After a down throw is followed up with up air it can be SHFFed, which leads into regrabs and more up airs. This can rack up 50-60% on most characters if done correctly.
• Dedede hits hard. His forward smash can kill most of the cast as low as 30% if fully charged, and dash attack is absolutely deadly with rage. Back air and down smash are quick-ish and rather reliable KO options, and the former is safe on shield if spaced well while the latter is great for punishing rolls or setting up edgeguards if it's done at the ledge thanks to its semi-spike angle.
• Gordos are great for covering ledge get-up options, and them being able to be tilted straight, up or down allows for useful mixups with the move. Dedede even has two setups with Gordo at the ledge where if an up-tilted Gordo hits somebody shielding combined with Dedede's forward smash, it breaks a full shield. An up-tilted Gordo covers standard and jumping ledge getup, and Dedede can follow up with either forward smash or back while the opponent is in hitstun.
• Up air is great for juggles, KOing, and has a deceptively long-lasting hitbox that beats out moves like and 's down air, Yoshi Bomb, Bowser Bomb and even in some cases Rock Smash.
• Neutral air is a sex kick most superheavies wish they could have. It comes out fast, has versatile use out of a shorthop, KOs, and FF nairs can set up into grab combos or Dedede's aerials.
• Down tilt is a genuinely great OoS and defensive option that comes out quick with little to no risk in its use and set up edgeguards at the ledge. It can even be used to cover a whiffed forward smash or down smash. Forward tilt comes out relatively fast and is good for spacing too.

But unfortunately, Dedede definitely has a ton of prominent weaknesses that bring him down as a character. Said weaknesses are why he struggles to compete consistently at top level and why he has such an awful matchup spread. To name them, here they are:

• His frame data is beyond godawful. He doesn't have a single move that comes out before frame 10 except for down tilt, neutral air and his standing & dash grabs.And that's all taking into account down tilt is his fastest move even though it comes out on frame 6. The animation for Gordo Toss lasts 58 frames. That is quite literally a second long. It's disgusting. If you miss anything other than Dedede's safer moves, you will be sorely punished for it.
• Almost everything Dedede does has a stunning lack of safety. His only truly safe move on shield is back air, and forward smash and down smash are debatable. In a game like Smash 4 where having safety is very important, this is a glaring issue for him. Not even a move like forward tilt is safe on shield thanks to its poor FAFs.
• Like any other superheavy, he's combo food. However, there are attributes that make him probably the easiest character in the game to combo. Due to having the worst airspeed in the game and having the second fastest falling speed, Dedede has a very hard time escaping air traps and being combo'd in general.
• Gordos are probably the most fragile projectile in the game, and easily backfire when thrown in midrange due to the fact they get reflected by any move that does at least 2%, which is literally every single move in the game barring 's Blaster.
• Jet Hammer is just outright garbage. I don't even have to explain this one.
• Due to his size, having a poor projectile and lacking a reflector, he has nothing to combat camping or projectiles in general.
• He loses hard to lame play. Very hard. Like if he comes across a who just spams Chef he can't approach him at all and has to just eat it (literally, lmao) or a intentionally campy or who throws out small Shadow Balls/Charge Shots and missiles a lot.
• For a heavyweight, he's surprisingly weak. He has no kill confirms to speak of whatsoever, meaning he has to work very hard to get KOs on opponents in the first place. And barely any of his moves reliably KO before 80% unlike characters such as , & , and his moves that hit like tanks (forward smash and dash attack) are incredibly laggy.
• Outside of down throw, his throw game sucks. Back throw sends opponents too high up and has no practical KOing power, putting opponents in an advantage state. Forward throw's angle is poor and still leaves opponents in a good position even if you throw them off the ledge and is again too weak to KO, and up throw does nothing useful and doesn't lead into his aerials at all and is also prone to DI.

With all these, Dedede has a lot that needs to be addressed. The main flaw with Dedede is that although he's defensively minded, his defense options are mediocre anyway and when said defense are penetrated he just outright falls apart. I'm going to amalgamate some stuff I've said previously in this thread and just list it down along with some explanations. My proposed buffs for Dedede are...

• Forward air and back air's hitboxes are made to match the animations. These moves constantly whiff when they look like they shouldn't, and even make shadow hits at close range. This would be a huge buff for Dedede alone. and got hitbox fixes, after all
• Make neutral air and forward air autocancel out of a shorthop, decrease their landing lag. Back air already autocancels out of a shorthop, having these two aerials would not only improve Dedede's aerial game but make his landings safer in general. Dedede shouldn't be punished for attempting to wall out his opponents.
• Make the startup on down air not disgusting and increase the sweetspot size. Pipe dream but eh, it'd be cool to see this happen.
• Increase the knockback/damage on forward air and make it a suitable kill move when onstage. Right now, forward air is an outright crap move. It deals negligible damage comapred to the rest of Dedede's moves (it does 12%), does little knockback, and has much more landing lag than back air so it's virtually of no reward to use.
  
• Forward and back throws can now kill from above 115% near the ledge, forward throw sends at a semi-spike angle. You're telling me that a giant penguin with a wooden mallet is whacking you and it currently doesn't kill until near above 180%? What is this madness? If Dedede got this buff he'd have so much less trouble at taking stocks, and it'd put him in line with the other superheavies who all have kill throws (except ... if only he got one too.)
• Decrease the startup and ending lag on Inhale. There's literally no reason for Inhale to be so damn laggy especially after 's Inhale got a buff and we have's Chomp that literally covers every single ledge getup option and can outright shut down some character's approaches. Inhale getting this buff would allow Dedede to have a usable defensive option and landing mixup.
• Jet Hammer now has super armor frames at full charge, and takes less time to charge up. Another pipe dream buff of mine, but it'd make the move somewhat less awful I guess.
• Super Dedede Jump breaks a full shield when landed on somebody onstage if all hitboxes connect. Oh my god there is literally no reason for the move not to do this already. Dedede is literally falling on his opponent with all his girth and yet their shield still stays up. This'd give Dedede a deadly punish option.
• Dedede's air speed is increased (0.658 -> 0.9). Practically near Bowser's air speed. It'd still be on the lower end of the cast, but not absolute rock bottom.
• Up smash has less startup/ending lag and does more damage, and the sourspot at the move's start is removed. Dedede has probably got the worst up smash in the game due to how awfully slow it is and having a surprising lack of kill power. The move should be retooled so Dedede can have a tool to vertical KOs other than up air.
• The sourspot on up tilt is removed, and its startup/ending lag is decreased while having the same damage and knockback.
• Increase the damage reflection threshold for Gordos from 2% to either the range of 3-4%. This would immensely help Dedede in some matchups, and actually force opponents to use a stronger move to reflect Gordos back and not just do the first hit of a jab. It'd also give him a tool against characters who can just camp him out.

So yeah that's all I gotta say. This was way too long lol

By the way: I vote for .

Wow, you put a lot of work into this post! I agree with everything! *slams face on like button*

Even though I main him, I don't have anything else to say except that literally every other low tier except for Jigglypuff has gotten buffs since the game's launch, and the king has even gotten NERFED!?! Okay. . . King Dedede (and puff too) are the characters most deserving of buffs out of the entire cast. With the next patch possibly being the last one EVER, I am putting my heart and soul into hoping that the king finally gets the buffs that he needs. At launch, DDD was probably low-mid tier, but the nerfs and all the other low tiers getting buffs have severely crippled him and put him in bottom tier. Please Sakurai, Nintendo, please throw us a bone here!

I also vote for as he is my secondary

 

[Furret24]

I vote .

 

[Koiba]

Vote goes to because interest in opinions

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, King Dedede, I feel is in the top of low tier. I think 8th from bottom is where I put him, but not sure.

Anyway, the advantages he has I feel, are at least some. For one, his weight is so big, that he lives longer than Dumbledore, (With or without Snape). For another, he gets a lot of damage on his opponent, and has a lot of knockback on his moves. He also has great range. He also has good air attacks, good forward tilt and down tilt, good jab, and a great side-B. However, he has a ton of big flaws. For one, he has terrible frame data. Worse than Shulk's. Espicially true for aeirals and smashes. His matchup spread is absymal, he does terrible aganist the top tiers. TERRIBLE. Another flaw is pretty bad grab game, he has like two or three combos off of a throw, and they never kill. And another thing, he occasionally has trouble KILLING due to his bad frame data. The final problem (I feel like I'm forgetting something, but whatever) Is his bad recovery, it doesn't even snap on the ledge DOWN, and has poor distance for sideways.

Buff ideas:

• Reduce landing lag on all aierals, reduce startup on forward air and back air, and reduce ending lag on back air and forward air.
• Make up special snap to the ledge on the way down
• Make down smash have slightly less startup and kill 10% earlier
• Make forward and back throw KO much earlier
• Reduce startup on inhale, dash attack, and forward tilt
• Do whatever with down B to make it good

(But serisualy, )

 

[apparently fuz]

Gotta vote for , got a lot to say about him.

 

[GreenMonkey]

@Feelicks did an amazing job and I believe all of my opinions are already covered...

My vote is to: /!

 

[Lag Chan]

I'd say something as a Dedede main but it seems like everything's been covered already.
I'll swing a vote for as well, really curious to see what people think of him (AKA please agree with me that G&W is pure garbage and needs servere buffs)

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say something as a Dedede main but it seems like everything's been covered already.
I'll swing a vote for as well, really curious to see what people think of him (AKA please agree with me that G&W is pure garbage and needs servere buffs)

He's not outright garbage but he definitely needs some buffs. Mostly toning down his dumb sourspots on almost all his attacks (WHY IS THERE A SOURSPOT ON FORWARD TILT) and giving him more KO power in general, but not as ridiculous as it was in Brawl. He's meant a glass cannon, but the cannon part is barely apparent other than getting the lucky 9.

But the topic is on Dedede right now so if G-dubs wins the round tomorrow I guess we can continue this.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can probably say that the Gordo would need some extra durability, since just about any attack can send it right back at Dedede. Maybe make the Gordo more resilient against weaker attacks?

 

[Furret24]

I'll swing a vote for as well, really curious to see what people think of him (AKA please agree with me that G&W is pure garbage and needs servere buffs)

Finally, someone who speaks my language.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

(Vote for , as I have in mind a couple distinct changes that would greatly improve him.)


Dedede in my mind was intended to be a zoning and punish character, but they screwed up a couple key aspects. Here's my list of possible changes:

~Change down air in some way. It's just way too slow to be viable in most situations, but if you do land it, it's extremely lethal. Maybe make it faster and a touch less powerful.

~Make forward air have less landing lag. Why can a move as slow as an Ike forward smash punish a shielded landing Fair? For being decently quick at startup and not much endlag in the air, it has surprisingly high landing lag.

~Make up B have less landing lag during the flip after being canceled. Wouldn't change him too much, aside from users of the custom move Rising Dedede, but a small buff regardless.

~Change forward, back, and down throws. Make forward throw be a good kill throw, make back air have less end lag to start edge guards better, and make down throw have less knockback growth like it used to so it can combo at higher percentages.

~Most importantly, make Gordos more resilient. Slightly increasing the damage needed to reflect them, making them simply not come out if the initial toss animation is interrupted, and having them be reflected at normal speed would help Dedede, especially since they don't come out quickly anyways and changing that might be over the top.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

zArd has my vote, as I recently started playing him

 

[Zerp]

Since both and have 3 votes, it's all up to the RNG now. And the RNG picked , personally, I was hoping for Game and Watch out of those two, but oh well, it is what it is.
Charizard's poll --->

Spoiler: Charizard

http://goo.gl/forms/QKuY0BVWMy

Dedede's results--->

Spoiler: Dedede

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QjNUM7iamtV9_Ib5vd_B8lWUjtGE_ujolNfWX1UcDso/edit?usp=sharing

I'll post my thoughts's on Charizard and my vote in a little bit.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can pretty much say that Charizard really needs an air speed buff. It's not able to glide anymore, and has only two mid-air jumps. Flare Blitz is a risky move to use to recover, since it not only hurts Charizard, but fighters can actually get in the move's way to stop Charizard's recovery. Sure, Dragon Rush does counter this flaw, but at the cost of some attack power.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Okay, I'm no expert at Charizard, but I have played him quite a lot and I would say that I am pretty familiar with the character.

Charizard has gone on a wild ride on the patch train so far, having received both nerfs and buffs. Flare Blitz was made to deal more damage to Zard probably because of for glory flare blitz spammers. Otherwise, Charizard has already received some pretty nice buffs, most notably his throws. D-throw used to be Zard's kill throw, but is now his combo throw, and a pretty nice one at that. His U-throw used to be almost completely useless but is now the strongest U-throw in the game, and when you add platforms it becomes scarily lethal. Charizard has received a bunch of other miscellaneous buffs over time which have all helped, but only his throw buffs really changed his game and how he is played. Zard was certainly deserving of these buffs since he was previously considered the worst non-mii character in the game, but now his is low-mid tier.

So does Charizard need to be buffed again? I would say yes. He still is objectively a bad character in terms of tier placement, and gets virtually no tournament results.

Some of Charizard's strengths:
• Incredible survivability (if you don't use side-B when it is unsafe. Looking at you for glory.)
• Excellent ground speed considering his weight
• Frame 4 jab
• Good killing power - between U-throw, B-air sweetspot, all smashes, U-air F-air offstage, and D-air spike, there are a lot of ways for Zard to kill you, often much MUCH earlier than you can kill him.
• Great edge guard game - flamethrower, 3 jumps, D-air spike is really powerful and not too hard to land, F-air
• Lots of Super armor - every special except for flamethrower has it
• Great damage output - every hit hurts, and Zard can rack up damage quickly with combos

Weaknesses:
• Frame data is lackluster - With the exception of jab, everything is pretty slow and most of Zard's aerials have a good amount of landing lag, and many of his attacks leave him open
• Zard is combo food - thanks to his large hitbox and lack of a fast aerial to break out of combo strings.
• Zard has trouble landing - make that extra mid air jump count, because with such a slow air speed and fall speed, landing against a fast opponent will be difficult and likely will get punished
• Susceptible to camping - Zard may be able to travel fast along the ground, but when the opponent can use a projectile to force you off the ground, your approach is suddenly a LOT slower and you have a lot less options. Flamethrower can only reach so far
• Can be easily edge guarded if the opponent has a counter

Possible buffs:
• Make N-air come out faster in front of and below Charizard - this would help escape combos and give Zard a better way to defend himself when he is receiving pressure
• Decrease landing lag on B-air - I don't know why it makes sense that Charizard can act much faster out of landing on his back (N-air) than simply moving his tail from left to right
• Increase air speed - Charizard is a flying type. WHY IS HE SO SLOW IN THE AIR? WHILE HE IS REALLY FAST ON THE GROUND?
• Give Zard a third mid-air jump - This is VERY unlikely and I don't see it happening, but it would really help him with landing, recovering against characters with counters, and resetting neutral in general. It makes sense, as the other characters with wings in this game ( ) all have more jumps than him, and he is a flying type.
• Have flare blitz do less/no damage when you do not run into anything - being able to use flare blitz to recover without damaging yourself would be a pretty nice buff, since it would go from being a mixup to an option equally as good as fly, if not better.
• Buff D-smash - just a personal want of mine. D-smash has a lot of end lag, and I would like it to kill just a bit earlier or do just a bit more damage.

Charizard has been getting small buffs even after his big one, so I can see him getting one of these, but I honestly don't forsee him getting a big buff ever again. And please don't nerf him anymore.

Next, I would like to see . Don't know much about her, but I would like to see how people would buff her, especially since she has gotten jack squat ever since launch.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Give him the ability to fly forever and use fire more since he is a dragon... nvm

IDK what to buff of him.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Give flamethrower more range. He has difficulties when it comes to characters that are able to wall him out either with projectiles, powerful disjointed hitboxes , or super fast aerials capable of carrying him offstage(oops did I add her AGAIN!?)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Also as previously stated increase his aerial speed...it's pathetic.
Rock Smash sometimes just fails somehow idk if it is just because I do not use the Zard enough to know, but sometimes the other person may use an attack that will break through his Super armour.


I vote to be discussed next. I have some VERY strong opinions on this Balloon

 

[Deleted member]

Charizard won? Yas.

Muskrat Catcher already did a good job explaining Charizard's strengths and weaknesses, so I'll give me suggested buffs for Zard. I've played him as a secondary in Brawl through Pokemon Trainer and have him as a secondary in this game as well, so I have my fair amount of experience with the character even if I'm definitely not a very good Charizard.

Zard has all the tools to be one of the best heavyweights in the game, but is ultimately brought down by lackluster frame data, poor air speed and traction that really bring him down as a character. With that said, here's my suggested improvements for him.

No, He's Not Bowser With Wings

• Increase air speed (0.87 -> 0.987 or 1.1). Please remind me why and friggin' have faster air speeds than Charizard. He's a dragon ffs, why is he so fast on the ground yet so ungodly sluggish in the air? The values listed are his Brawl air speed and the value I'd personally like his air speed to be. Him getting even his Brawl airspeed back would do him a lot and make him much less vulnerable to juggles and air traps, and assist his combo game and recovery.
• Increase traction (0.04 -> 0.055). Charizard currently has the second-worst traction in the game, the only character having it worse being . This is an absolutely baffling design choice, and it hurts Zard considerably since he has very good OoS options, but him sliding across the floor so much after being hit by something while in shield doesn't allow him to use them. The value is again, his Brawl traction. This'd put him right in the middle of the cast in terms of traction instead of being near the worst where he is right now, and make him moreso of a threat when acting out of defense.
• Decrease landing lag on back air. If Zard got this buff, this would give him a fantastic spacing tool he really needs in neutral besides Flamethrower. Definitely my most wanted buff for him.
• Make down tilt have a chance of tripping opponents at low percents. Very pipe-dreamy but this would be very good for him setting up into dashgrab, he'd get a lot of reward off it considering how great of a combo throw dthrow is.
  
• Give Charizard's jumps more height. Instead of giving him another jump like Muskrat proposed, this would definitely be more realistic. Zard's jumps go pretty low for a character of his type (HE IS A FLYING TYPE POKEMON EUUURGH), especially one with multiple jumps. If he had better jumps he'd have much less trouble recovering vertically or landing back onstage.

That's what I've got. Hope to see more discussion on what people think Charizard needs!

I vote for .

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I feel like Charizard isn't that bad anymore (he was that bad at launch), he isn't bottom tier imo, and, at least on paper, his strengths would make up for his weaknesses.
Unfortunately though, in practice I think his strengths don't fully make up for his weaknesses. I feel that could use some better traction, because as of right now, even though he's got Fly, Charizard's OoS game is terrible, due to his traction (2nd worst in game) he can't punish attacks on shield as well as he should be able to. If they don't fix his traction, then I hope they at least bump up his airspeed a bit, he's a flying type for Arceus's sake.

I vote for Pummeluff.

 

[Baskerville]

With the exception of D-Tilt, Feelicks pretty much summed up what I'd want to see with Zard.
Increased air speed and B-Air ESPECIALLY.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Truthfully, I'd like it if Charizard's air speed was increased from 0.87, to 1.09; that would help make up for having only two mid-air jumps. Charizard's third jump just doesn't offer enough horizontal movement, and using Flare Blitz to recover can end up hurting it, so if Charizard had an above average air speed value, that could help it refrain from resorting to moves that either hurt itself, or are lousy with horizontal movement.

Sure, you can use the Glider equipment to help Charizard's air speed, but you don't have that option in a defaults only match.