The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Furret24]

I vote again. Hopefully, he'll win this time.

 

[Zerp]

Mr. Game and Watch's poll ---> http://goo.gl/forms/levBhp3Ccc
Results for Falco---> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OSbV3NpIn7oNXEDuMo7QIJ59JtX6FfEbcnPTSrF0sjg/viewanalytics

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think that if modified just right, Mr. Game & Watch could at least be a mid-ranked fighter. The main problem is that some of his attacks have sourspots that really hinder their efficiency. Fire Attack and Vermin are the main targets, since in Brawl, sweetspots weren't really needed for those attacks to be effective. Also, it would be nice if Manhole got back its Melee attributes, where it offers vertical knockback on grounded opponents.

Running speed improvements could also be nice, since he's often been tied with Mario in the running department. In terms of his air acceleration, having the third lowest air acceleration isn't so bad when you're the 5th slowest faller in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

YE BOI.

*rings bell and makes beeping noises*

Another character I'm familar with. I still play G&W as a secondary, so I can safely say I know a good amount when it comes to the character. He's designed to be a glass cannon... but I even question of the cannon aspect is there a good amount of the time. G&W undoubtedly has his positive attributes, such as a good air speed, amazing recovery and edgeguarding potential, decent aerials (with up air being absolutely great for juggling, back air for spacing and shutting down approaches) and a very useful combo throw in the form of down throw that goes up to percents as high as 125%.

The main problem with G&W is that he has to work so hard to nail a kill despite how fragile of a character he is (3rd lightest in the game), all of his smashes have a good amount of ending lag, are predictable and have ungodly stupid large sourspots, limiting their utility and power. Up smash, his most powerful smash, having crap range doesn't help either. Up air's difficult to connect, and none of his other aerials kill reliably unless offstage (I know there's down air, but it's a stall-then-fall and those can be read as easily as a Dr. Seuss book). Judge is always random, so it's not particularly reliable either considering all the other numbers bar 9 are of little use at all. It feels like that G&W lost a good amount of his killing prowess from Brawl with not much to make up for it, especially with having a poor approach aided by an equally poor projectile that's only good for harassing heavies or characters offstage.

So, in my proposal here are my buffs for G&W:

• Increase the sweetspots on forward smash and down smash. Both moves have very good kill power, but the problem is the sweetspots are absurdly hard to land despite both smash attacks having quite good range. He isn't , ffs.
• Forward air has significantly increased knockback, making a reliable KO move it was in Brawl but not to the same extent.
• Manhole (down tilt) does more damage and knockback, KOing opponents vertically when they're in the middle of it, and sending them at a semi-spike angle if anywhere else on the hole.
• Drastically decrease the ending lag on Bucket. Seriously, how come another projectile absorption move, 's PSI Magnet gets this sorta buff while G-dubs is chopped liver?
• Less ending lag on standing grab and dash grab. Another baffling design choice. Why is it as sluggish as and 's?

Pretty much the main improvements I'd want. Game and Watch already has a pretty decent character build, but he needs to have the "cannon" in glass cannon reinstated back into his design again.

I vote for this round! Really interesting character to me and I play her a fair bit as well.

 

[ArikadoSD]

The main problem with G&W is that he has to work so hard to nail a kill despite how fragile of a character he is (3rd lightest in the game), all of his smashes have a good amount of ending lag

I hope by good end lag you mean low end lag cuz the moves have like no end lag at all. Just a bit of a slow startup.

So, in my proposal here are my buffs for G&W:

• Less ending lag on standing grab and dash grab. Another baffling design choice. Why is it as sluggish as and 's?

G&W's FAF on standing grab: 30 --- dash grab: 37
Ganon's FAF on standing grab: 36 --- dash grab: 45
Robin's FAF on standing grab: 48 --- dash grab: 50
Mario's FAF on standing grab: 29 --- dash grab: 36

So yeah, that's flat out wrong. G&W's grab frame data is actually only 1 frame later than Mario's and no where near as slow as ganon's or robin's.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly what G&W needs is an aerial that kills better than Uair does and a slightly better Dtilt.

Maybe some slight increase in movement speed but that's it. A powerful aerial would do AMAZING things.

But his USmash IS amazing, you can't challenge it. It beats basically any landing option when done right IIRC

 

[Deleted member]

I hope by good end lag you mean low end lag cuz the moves have like no end lag at all. Just a bit of a slow startup.


G&W's FAF on standing grab: 30 --- dash grab: 37
Ganon's FAF on standing grab: 36 --- dash grab: 45
Robin's FAF on standing grab: 48 --- dash grab: 50
Mario's FAF on standing grab: 29 --- dash grab: 36

So yeah, that's flat out wrong. G&W's grab frame data is actually only 1 frame later than Mario's and no where near as slow as ganon's or robin's.

Sorry. I should've fact checked. G&W's grab has always felt rather slow to me, so I compared him to those two. Again, my apologies.

And yeah his smashes are on the fast side, especially compared to most smashes.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Do something about his sour spots. Please. Also make F-air a bit more powerful and make Bucket less laggy (when unfilled, of course).

 

[Lag Chan]

Ohhhh boy have I been waiting for this.
In his current state Game and Watch is utterly baffling. Sure, I was expecting nerfs because he's pretty good in Brawl,it was a given that Bucket Breaking was going to get fixed. But wow, they completely neutered him in this game. I seriously think that even Melee G&W is better than Smash 4 G&W, at least in Melee he could get kills, whilst in Smash 4 he's on par with Bowser Jr and Duck Hunt, needing to sometimes rack up over 150% just to get one stock off. In his current state, it's another case of character invalidation, in that literally anything Game and Watch does, Kirby does better. So how to fix this.

The obvious one, give Game and Watch his identity back. KO power buffs across the board. Notably, all smashes, Fair and Bair, Ftilt and Dtilt.
Do something about his glaring Sour spots, it seems like they're on pretty much every move and it really hurts a character who already struggles approaching.
Decrease the lag on Dair. It's pretty much worthless in it's current state, plus it's not like it's Sheik/ZSS/Sonic's Dair we're talking about. It didn't need nerfing.
The ability to control the trajectory of Chef. Judge has a good reason behind it's randomisation. Chef does not.
A pipe dream one, but I'd be perfectly happy if Oil Panic got weaker KO power in combination with being able to absorb physical projectiles and not just energy/explosions. Would make a lot of match-ups more bearable, plus the move already having lag doesn't make it as braindead as Rosalina's down B

Feel free to call me out on these, I haven't played him in months. I just want my main 2D man to not be terrible in this game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You picked a good time to do Mr. Game & Watch.

I don't know much about Mr. Game & Watch, but there should be more KO Power in some moves, and down throw should have more combos.

I vote

 

[Zerp]

About Mr. Game and Watch, I don't think game and Watch is really bad or anything (upper low tier imo) but I think he could use some reversal of his Brawl nerfs, like his B-air and F-air nerfs. Change B-air back to it's original 12 endlag frame self, give it back it's old kill power, it wasn't broken or anything. Make F-air kill before 140%, it's ridiculous that G and W can't kill reliably at that kind of percent with his F-air.
I vote for .

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I find it funny about when we start G&W, Regi does work with him in Genesis

 

[FamilyTeam]

I vote for .

I second this, of course.
But about Game and Watch... I don't have much to say on him. He's someone I always played very rarely. I didn't even know he was a thing in Melee until last year.

 

[Zerp]

Since it's a three way tie, the RNG has spoken, and it picked Bowser Jr.
Lucina won just as I finished making Bowser Jr.'s poll, lol. Poor Bowser Jr, maybe you'll get your chance another day?
Here's Lucina's poll : http://goo.gl/forms/39rvta476t
Here's the results for Mr. Game and Watch: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1UgTaxfHEkNl7CEjireYz9vd3SEHASfKZzYOhnS7CmB4/viewanalytics

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Since Lucina is supposed to be like a more balanced Marth, I'd more look at Marth's issues first. In this case, a better reach would come to mind, since both Marth and Lucina have that problem when they try to land their attacks.

I can't really say much else for Lucina though.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yay, finally Lucie!
I'll be honest and say that my feelings towards her and Marth are kind of the same I have towards Falco: I don't think they're bad, just... kinda outclassed.
Much like I said in my very first post in this thread, it'd be nice if they both buffed Marth and Lucina and gave them traits to separate them, such as making Marth have his good old air combos back and make Lucina really good in the ground with very fast and strong Smashes and good grabs. Atleast that's my idea, for more reference, just look at the post I'm referring to.

 

[Acker]

I don't play the character too much but I feel like Lucina need just less landing lag on her aerials and a good combo throw to become a good character.
But since she's a Marth's clone these changes should also affect him of course.

 

[Zerp]

So hey guys, I'm kind f in a rush right now, but I just wanted to let you guys know that the update will probably be pretty late today, terribly sorry.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So hey guys, I'm kind f in a rush right now, but I just wanted to let you guys know that the update will probably be pretty late today, terribly sorry.

There's hardly anything going on with Lucina anyway, so I doubt that you'll see much when you return.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

imo make lucina more aerial orrientated. Maybe make her up throw kill earlier than marths. Reduce Endlag on aerials. just make her more aerial character cause no tipper.

 

[Zerp]

On the topic of Lucina, I really like FamilyTeam 's suggestion, I personally feel that Lucina should be made more unique, and I think that the idea of buffing her separately from Marth, giving her the ground game improvements and Marth the air game improvements would be a pretty cool way to do it.

Lucina's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WlUFZgL3PfMTtnoNeLzHwsyY7DgyJ64Xrcq_zCEUw6Q/viewanalytics

Since nobody voted yesterday, and I felt bad for Bowser Junior being so close yesterday, today's going to be his day!
Bowser Junior's poll --> http://goo.gl/forms/0A6KI7AKW0

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

One of things that really hurts Bowser Jr. is how slow and predictable his projectile options are. Most fighters can easily avoid his projectile game, and some of them can even use the projectiles against him.

Additionally, Bowser Jr. has mobility issues, as he's not too speedy, even while running. And of course, his best KO moves are on the situational side.

On a side note, while some of Bowser Jr.'s custom special moves can help deal with his issues, you won't always be allowed to use them.

 

[Zerp]

For Bowser Jr. buffs, what I'd like to see is:

BUFF. THE. CANNON!

Seriously, his cannon is borderline useless, it's slow and predictable, personally I think the best solution is to remove some lag on it and speed up the projectile a bit so it isn't useless.
Fix his Up-B's first hit too, it's ridiculous that you can hit someone with abandon ship's first hit yet, they'd still avoid the explosion if they DI correctly, I think that needs some fixing.
One other thing I'd like for Bowser Jr. is for D-throw to become a combo throw, as of now I personally think shields are a bit too safe against Bowser Jr.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Clown Kart Dash is another move that should be looked at, as it doesn't offer ANY super armor at all; even a weak projectile can stop the attack. And frankly, there are cases where Clown Kart Dash feels inferior to Koopa Drift, as while Koopa Drift lacks the KO power, it can rack up damage more easily, making it much harder to shield-grab, AND it has a very handy property that helps Bowser Jr.'s recovery.

As for Clown Cannon, it would help if Bowser Jr. could hold the charge instead of always firing the cannonball upon fully charging the attack.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Just a question: Bowser Jr.'s Side Smash is the Cannonball, isn't it?
How far does it go, is it reflectable?
If it goes far and it can be easily used against you... that's honestly pathetic.

 

[this isn't pete i swear]

Just a question: Bowser Jr.'s Side Smash is the Cannonball, isn't it?
How far does it go, is it reflectable?
If it goes far and it can be easily used against you... that's honestly pathetic.

neutral b is the cannonball
he uses 2 drills for a side smash

 

[FamilyTeam]

neutral b is the cannonball
he uses 2 drills for a side smash

Ah, I see, dunno why I thought that.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

He needs a combo throw, a reliable way to kill, and a good cannonball.

Vote for .

 

[Wintermelon43]

Imo, he should get a combo throw, a kill throw, more kill power, and have cannonball be way better

 

[Zerp]

Sorry for how late I am, very sorry.

Spoiler: Bowser Jr.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YJve-0B48F_qr_d0_e6F4WmLVyKngDspqDhwmYVEIq8/viewanalytics

I was hoping for more than 3 responses, but hey, three's better than two, one and none.

RNG picked Mega Man today, so here's Mega Man's poll.

Spoiler: Mega Man

http://goo.gl/forms/86uB9LAo15

Also, did you guys like the older style results or the newer one more?

 

[Eugene Wang]

is probably with in that he's solid, and can stand his ground against the cast, but is overshadowed by top tiers. There are plenty of fighters that needs buffs more badly than he does.

My vote goes to .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Still voting .

I think is fine how he his. His Metal Blade shenanigans are crazy, and in general his zoning game is great between that, his pellets, and his Crash Bomb. He doesn't have trouble killing either, as up smash and down smash are decently ranged (up smash is a scoop, down smash hits both sides) with lots of vertical power, forward smash isn't too strong but has huge range, back air is quick and powerful, back throw is decently powerful, and up tilt is great out-of-shield. He's also hard to kill as a heavy fast-faller who's small for his weight. Perhaps the only thing he needs to be higher is better combo game, but that's asking for too much.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I really don't think Mega needs any buffs. He's a solid character that requires a lot of skill to use.
I voted Mewtwo.

 

[Unclesatan]

i don't think anyone is going to want megaman to be buffed who doesn't play him. I saw someone above saying he has no problems killing - that's a joke. megaman has a difficult time killing as he only has a few guaranteed kill setups beyond just using his smash attacks. if you don't believe me, play megaman against someone who knows the matchup and see just how easy it is for him to kill.

his only real reliable kill moves are bair and usmash, with leafstool gimps working on about 20% of the cast reliably. using dsmash in any moment other than a hard read ends in rest-esque endlag for megaman. fsmash is rarely useful because of the massive endlag, the risk associated with missing is huge. utilt lol you have to be almost as precise with utilt as you would with rest, i'll agree it's a good out of shield option but unless you're on lylat you won't be using utilt much.

in the end though, his real issue isn't his kill potential. it's not his combo game. it's not his base character stats.

it's how easily he gets combo'd. by anyone. if someone lands a hit on you and your SDI is not on point, prepare to eat 60% damage, because mega's frame data isn't good enough to clash with anyone's moves mid combo, and his double jump isn't good enough to save him from the likes of ZSS or mewtwo combo juggling him.

we want rush cancelling back. the only buff i even ask for is rush cancelling. this would make megaman high tier because it gives him a combo breaker.

but alas, that's something that would never happen. so just give me less landing lag on fair and we'll be gravy...

That being said, nobody has pushed mega man to the limits of his tech ceiling so until someone masters the crazy setups and tech he can do, we won't have an accurate idea of what to balance on him.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah. Mega is alright and a good character in his own right. I don't have much to say about him.

I vote for .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I really can't think of very much for Mega Man, so I'm out.

In terms of voting, Mewtwo should probably come next, because I have some things to bring up for it.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I really don't think that mega man needs any buffs. He already has all the tools he needs, and every move has a use. Maybe I can see reason to buff Leaf Shield but thats about it.

I vote for

 

[Zerp]

Hey, so as you can probably all tell, I'm late. Again... Very sorry for wasting your precious time.

I'm not feeling well today and didn't really have the opportunity to be here at the time today but, it doesn't matter how sick I am, being late is simply unacceptable.

Anyways, I want to ask you all a question. Do you think it'd be better if we continue'd Mega Man today and did Mewtwo tomorrow so he gets a fair start at 10:30 EST like he should have been and the same amount of time as everyone else, or would you rather I start Mewtwo's day right now? And if we do start Mewtwo's day right away, would rather me end it at a later time tomorrow to compensate for his lost time or not?

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Personally I think that it would be good to give Mewtwo two days (lol). But seriously, he was regarded as bottom tier until he recently got buffed, and his most glaring flaws were fixed, but most still consider him lower tier and still bad, so I think that it would be good to give him a little extra time for discussion to see what people think of him now, whether he still needs more buffs and what they would be. Most people seem to agree that mega man is a solid character and doesn't require too much attention, so it would be fine to end his rating period now

 

[Zerp]

Personally I think that it would be good to give Mewtwo two days (lol). But seriously, he was regarded as bottom tier until he recently got buffed, and his most glaring flaws were fixed, but most still consider him lower tier and still bad, so I think that it would be good to give him a little extra time for discussion to see what people think of him now, whether he still needs more buffs and what they would be. Most people seem to agree that mega man is a solid character and doesn't require too much attention, so it would be fine to end his rating period now

That's a good idea, and it makes up for the fact some of his day got robbed due to my illness, (still not a excuse) Mewtwo will get two days.
Here's Mega Man's results.

Spoiler: Mega Man's results

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dhld5VM46TMPflsj0--mMGXCOi-Bq5USzTXcKk6_bbM/viewanalytics

And here's Mewtwo's poll

Spoiler: Mewtwo's poll

http://goo.gl/forms/XZC2an3VNR

Once again I'd like to state I'm terribly sorry for late I was, being too sick is not a excuse to be late.