The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[FamilyTeam]

I don't really know since I have little experience with them, but going off of the MU discussions for both of them, it looks like both lose to Meta Knight and Zero Suit Samus, Pit/DPit beats out Ness and Game and Watch and Dpit alone beats Rosalina, but not Pit, which all are apparently slightly bad MUs for Mario. Unfortunately there really isn't anything else notable I can list since the Pit MU chart stuff isn't close to being complete, and the mario one's very outdated, so take it with a grain of salt, but from what it looks like, Dark Pit/Pit covers up some of Mario's weaknesses but they share a few common weaknesses. Not sure if that's what your looking for or not, but I can't really help any more than that.

I wish you good luck in finding that secondary, whoever they may be, sorry that I wasn't really able to help you much .

Oh no no no, thanks for your input, it still is very helpful to me. But I'm gonna ask a few more people before I take any decisions.
Hell, @Feelicks seems to have a pretty broad understand of how the Pits work so...
OI! Mate! What would you say on the matter?

 

[Deleted member]

Oh no no no, thanks for your input, it still is very helpful to me. But I'm gonna ask a few more people before I take any decisions.
Hell, @Feelicks seems to have a pretty broad understand of how the Pits work so...
OI! Mate! What would you say on the matter?

I see that I've been summoned. I'm not really any Pit expert (I only play them as secondaries, but I also did do the same for Pit in Brawl), but I'll give my best advice. Might wanna hit up Wintropy for Pit-related stuff, they're the most knowledgeable person I know in regards to the character.

Kinda like Mario, the Pit's are all-rounder characters. They have something outfitted for all situations: a projectile, a reflector, all around good mobility (bar mediocre air speed, but it doesn't hinder them much due to them having three jumps and a recovery that reaches a ton of distance), and quite good frame data. They're not too hard to get the hang of, but they're characters that are all about fundamentals. You can put pretty much any playstyle into them, aggressive, defensive, a mix of both really. They're definitely characters worth picking up, and are very reliable in competitive play.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hmmm... so far, I have one "Maybe" and one "Yes", then...

 

[Wintropy]

Pit (and by extension Dark Pit) is a character that is, by definition, going to cover most of your matchups because his spread is so tepid across the board that he isn't going to get hard countered by anybody. By the same token, he won't be invalidating anybody in return, so he's not a super-viable, easy-win counterpick. He's a solid choice overall if you want to have something decent in your pocket, since he's easy to pick up and doesn't cost blood to lab, but he's not a good secret weapon. You will not win any of Mario's bad matchups by much if you pocket Pit.

I think Pit has an okay matchup with Sheik (not a good or even matchup, just not hair-pullingly frustrating; it's doable) and Dark Pit goes even with Rosalina, but that's about it as far as notable advantages over Mario go. He still gets beaten by ZSS and doesn't have a favourable matchup with Meta Knight, Fox, Diddy or even Mario himself. If you want somebody that will win those matchups for you and nothing else, don't pick Pit. If you want somebody that you can have as a contingency plan for when you're just not feeling it with your main, then pick up Pit.

 

[FamilyTeam]

...Hmm... so for me, that's another yes.
So I'll be considering him. If I get another solid yes, then I'll start my training tomorrow, even.

 

[Zerp]

RNG picked Marth for today.
Marth's poll for today --> http://goo.gl/forms/wyXtP5YrhW
Pit's results--> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1yQT9FRuK-is8CKHksQN7hTgYd0r1NZkdM3UW7aivH-Y/viewanalytics

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'd say improve the reach of Marth's sword, since he pretty much needs that to be better.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say improve the reach of Marth's sword, since he pretty much needs that to be better.

His range is fine. The problem is the landing lag of his aerials and terrible grab game.

 

[Furret24]

His range is fine. The problem is the landing lag of his aerials and terrible grab game.

What's so bad about his landing lag? It's pretty decent (outside of dair).

Combined, his aerials total 83 frames of landing lag. For Reference, Sheik also has 83, Kirby has 69, Game and Watch has 86, Jigglypuff has 93, and Mario has 79.

 

[Deleted member]

What's so bad about his landing lag? It's pretty decent (outside of dair).

Combined, his aerials total 83 frames of landing lag. For Reference, Sheik also has 83, Kirby has 69, Game and Watch has 86, Jigglypuff has 93, and Mario has 79.

...This furthers the fact I really need to do my research. :V

 

[LevinViolin]

I meant to comment on yesterday, but I missed my chance. While I agree that Pit is extremely well balanced and doesn't need significant changes, I feel like the character lacks the "oomph" he needs to see more representation. Even so, there's only one thing I can think of that would help him without being overkill. Give his up special two things: the ability to go at more angles, and the ability to snap to the ledge consistently. Neither of these things are too detrimental to Pit on paper and in practice, but it can still be annoying when he will just fly past the ledge sometimes but snap to it other times. I don't use Pit, so I don't know why that happens or if I'm doing something wrong, but I feel like making his recovery more consistent would make him just a smidge better without being too much.

As for , I definitely think the problem with his landing lag is overstated. Even when disregarding the actual landing lag, Fair, Uair, and Bair all autocancel out of a short hop. I think Marth's real problem is his general lack of safety on a lot of his moves. I think making his damage output just a tad higher would help his moves be a little safer on shield. Right now Marth's Fair, if you aim for the autocancel window AND you space it right to hit the tipper, is -21 on shield. It's actually better for Marth to experience the landing lag on his Fair rather than try to aim for the autocancel window. If you do it frame pefectly, his fair is -9 on shield, which is actually pretty safe considering his range.
EDIT: I did my maths wrong. Frame disadvantages are wrong, but I'm still arguing the point that he doesn't have very many moves that are safe.

He also lacks general follow up options. It's possible to string together a large amount of aerials with him, but experienced opponents can easily DI out of them most of the time. It feels like Marth just struggles getting any kind of good follow up, but the damage output on his moves just isn't high enough to justify that aspect of him. The combos he has are difficult to start for the Marth player, and easy to anticipate for his opponent.

His grab game is pretty lackluster. Downthrow combos into upair, but the timing is extremely strict. I don't believe it works on part of the cast past really early percents, too. Add a bad dash grab to that.

If his moves were just safer to throw out in general, I think he'd be much better. Marth has been slowly and steadily receiving buffs throughout the patches. Some of them feel incredibly warranted, but he's just still lacking a few key aspects that can solidify him as a good character. On paper he's well balanced. In practice, he's pretty bad.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Cool, got selected! Voting for .

His range and landing lag aren't his problem, it's his followup potential. I think if he got a combo throw (D-throw) and maybe a tad bit less end lag on forward and neutral air, that would be greatly improved. Also make down air worth using, it's too laggy for how unreliable it is to get the spike hitbox.

 

[Zerp]

How's all your days going?
Marth's results--> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1z8M0tnCk93cmcD4ivzuXu18lmGpcP6lixM8VBKEt5Ew/viewanalytics
Bowser's poll --> http://goo.gl/forms/mD4BcF0RXO
Edit: Also, remember the draft/ suggestion pile thingy we were talking about a few days ago? I was working on it but lost all my progress unfortunately, and I really need to rest, so I'm going to have to delay it for tomorrow, sorry for the disappointment.

 

[Furret24]

How's all your days going?
Marth's results--> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1z8M0tnCk93cmcD4ivzuXu18lmGpcP6lixM8VBKEt5Ew/viewanalytics
Bowser's poll --> http://goo.gl/forms/mD4BcF0RXO

I faced a pretty good Bowser last night on FG 1v1. He killed me at 70% on multiple occasions.

I can't say much about buffing Bowser, outside of giving him better landing options.

I vote .

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Huh, I really do think that Bowser should be at least a little bit better than what he is now, but I don't know what to buff. He has been treated pretty well thus far and he got pretty much all the buffs he really needed. His speed is good, his combo game is now good, his damage output is ridiculous, and his only weakness is probably how much end lag his stuff has, but that's bowser's whole gimmick - just like in the games, he has slow, powerful attacks that leave a window to counterattack if missed. I would say that fire breath could use a buff, less landing lag on F-air, higher horizontal speed on whirling fortress (both on ground and in air), and maybe make the tough guy ability able to super armor through a few more weak projectiles, like Mario's fireball (it's canon), Pikachu's neutral-B, and Duck Hunt's frisbee when not shot.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The main thing that Bowser needs is less lag for some of his weaker attacks, especially the aerials.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Voting for .
Pretty much the only thing I would say is bad about now is that he has a terrible time landing. Maybe making forward or back air have slightly lower-reaching range and slightly less end lag to compensate would be nice.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

As a semi bowser main, I say his biggest weakness aside from his wide open landing, or just being a big target for combos is his limited approach options.

In my opinion, he could use about 5 frames less of both start up & end lag to make a bit more safe.

 

[Zerp]

already got some pretty nice buffs, but I feel he could still use a little bit more, maybe cutting off a few start up frames for his neutral B? I don't really know what to do with Bowser.

Anyways, about the suggestions thing, after a few hours I have finally got it back to where I used to be, (halfway done) but I kind of feel like maybe the way I'm doing it is wrong, so I'm going to ask a question. Would you guys rather have short summaries of a not all but just a few of the changes suggested for each character like I've been doing, or just raw copy paste every suggestion (with credit, of course)?
Also, I'd like to get the poll up on time, but don't count on it, my schedule's really bumpy today, the update will probably be late today.
Voting for
Edit: Sorry that this isn't it's own post but I don't know whether or not double posting like this is against the rules, and I'd rather not risk it.
Here's Bowser's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14zR4eb2he5tb33-M6zSNEopa63DsqLbyMYaOgK5eZ3Y/viewanalytics
and today the RNG picked Wii Fit Trainer so we're doing her/him.
Wii Fit Trainer's poll http://goo.gl/forms/G2A5WntrrF

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can't really think of much for the Wii Fit Trainer, so I'm out for today.

 

[Furret24]

SALUTE THE SUN!!!

I can't think of anything to say about her, so I'm also out for today (and, technically, part of tomorrow as well).

I vote .

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't play Wii Fit Trainer much, so I decided to consult Smash Wiki.

Unfortunately, hitting an opponent can be difficult for the Trainer as her attack placements are awkward and her melee reach is short. Her fastest grounded attacks do not have great hitboxes, often missing smaller characters. Her forward smash is the best example, as it can even miss opponents buried by her jab. Even worse is her grab range, which requires her to be right in an opponent's face while also being as laggy as Robin's. In addition her pummel is very slow, and her throw game is below average, as she has no reliable combo throw and her kill throws don't KO until very high percents. All her grounded moves do not move her forward as well, further hurting her reach, and her smash attacks all suffer from bad ending lag. If that isn't enough, these KO moves do not reliably take stocks until 100%, and although Deep Breathing remedies this, it only lasts for 7 seconds and has a terribly long recharge time regardless if the move is successful. Her forward tilt is a solid KO move but suffers from the aforementioned range problem. Occasionally due to this problem, she will have to use her back throw or up throw to finish off an opponent, which don't KO until around 170%.

Based on this, and my quick tests, my suggestions are:

1. Adjust Wii Fit Trainer's Neutral Attack so that it keeps opponents on the ground so it can bury opponents.
2. Make Wii Fit Trainer's left leg and foot a hitbox during her/his Forward Smash so it can hit small opponents.
3. Make Wii Fit Trainer's Back Throw stronger so it can KO opponents easier.
4. Make Wii Fit Trainer's Down Tilt faster
5. Make Wii Fit Trainer's Up Smash have more range so it doesn't wiff when you are standing right next to the smallest opponents (Such as Kirby or Olimar).
6. Make Wii Fit Trainer's Deep Breathing have less of a penalty for failing, and have the effects last a little longer.

That's all I got.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I think just improving her smash attacks (a bit faster, up smash should scoop better) and throws (a true combo throw and a better kill throw) would instantly boost her to a serious threat.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

I think just improving her smash attacks (a bit faster, up smash should scoop better) and throws (a true combo throw and a better kill throw) would instantly boost her to a serious threat.

Was gonna make a big comment but it's pretty much this.

Her smashes are not just slow and highly punishable but they also makes these obnoxious whistles before the move activates so unless your opponent has the reaction speed of a vegetable they can avoid it for sure.
Also, I urge every single person to try grabbing and pummeling something as Wii fit just once in their lives because it really puts stuff into perspective (especially since I main Luigi) and the only thing her throws combo into are sadness.
Her ground to ground game is just atrocious to the point where I prefer fighting offstage to ground instead of ground to ground or even air to ground.

Other than that, Wii fit has a delicious off-stage presence and fun projectiles combined with quirky hitboxes that can be great if you put the time into learning them. She's great fun to play and can pull off some cool gimps.

 

[Zerp]

I just realized I was the only person to vote on Wii Fit, lol.
Here's Wii Fit Trainer's only vote https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1lKsGzNZV9janjS6vIaQfTjoZel5wxoIHrYIo4_B9Tqo/viewanalytics
and today we are doing....

SALUTE THE SUN!!!

I can't think of anything to say about her, so I'm also out for today (and, technically, part of tomorrow as well).

I vote .

Charizard! Here's his or her poll http://goo.gl/forms/4Mmgcu3X8J

Well actually, I'd say we couldn't since we already did Charizard earlier, but I clearly wasn't being clear enough about the whole we can't do a character twice thing, and it's the only vote for a character, so I'll make a exception today.

Now I want to ask you guys a question, would you guys rather have me keep the old voting rules where'd you only be able to vote for these guys


until we did them all once and then move on to other characters, or since we already made a exception, just throw all the voting rules out the window and make it so we can always vote for a rerate and every Smash 4 character is eligible immediately?

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

I just realized I was the only person to vote on Wii Fit, lol.
Here's Wii Fit Trainer's only vote https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1lKsGzNZV9janjS6vIaQfTjoZel5wxoIHrYIo4_B9Tqo/viewanalytics
and today we are doing....


Charizard! Here's his or her poll http://goo.gl/forms/4Mmgcu3X8J

Well actually, I'd say we couldn't since we already did Charizard earlier, but I clearly wasn't being clear enough about the whole we can't do a character twice thing, and it's the only vote for a character, so I'll make a exception today.

Now I want to ask you guys a question, would you guys rather have me keep the old voting rules where'd you only be able to vote for these guys


until we did them all once and then move on to other characters, or since we already made a exception, just throw all the voting rules out the window and make it so we can always vote for a rerate and every Smash 4 character is eligible immediately?

Sooo, we just vote on something and the one with the most votes gets discussed?

So I can just do "I vote: "?

 

[Zerp]

Sooo, we just vote on something and the one with the most votes gets discussed?

So I can just do "I vote: "?

Yeah, you can do that. Whoever gets the most votes is discussed the next day, and whenever there's a tie I just use a random numbers generator to decide who wins. The only thing that isn't solidified yet is whether or not every character can be voted on, right now the only ones that people can vote on are the characters I listed above, but nobody's really listened to that, so I'm thinking that maybe I should just get rid of that restriction. Regardless of whether or not I get rid of that rule, your example would work.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've pretty much pointed out the flaws that Charizard has. It needs better air speed, and perhaps a traction improvement as well.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

I've pretty much pointed out the flaws that Charizard has. It needs better air speed, and perhaps a traction improvement as well.

Interesting, Charizards might actually be the smallest minority of opponents I've faced in Smash and I barely know it's strengths and weaknesses as a result.
I'm actually interested to know why people play him, can he do some cool/exciting stuff?

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Charizard can be very fun to play. Some of my reasons why I made him my secondary:

• I love all of the super armor that he gets. Every special except for flamethrower has armor, and Rock Smash is amazing for eating up attacks
• Dair. With the exception of Ganondorf, I believe that Charizard's Dair is the best spike in the game in terms of strength and how easy it is to hit with it. It kills most characters at 0-20% offstage
• Charizard, in my opinion, has the second best survivability in the game next to DDD, thanks to his recovery and weight. Whether you use flare blitz or fly to get back, not many characters can challenge either of those options, so getting back to the stage is relatively easy, and thanks to all of Zard's super armor you can survive into the 150-200s range somewhat frequently
• Charizard benefits greatly from rage. His U-throw in particular, since it can kill at around 100% with rage without platforms, and 70% with rage and a high platform
• For a heavy, he has really good dash speed, and an amazing frame 4 jab
• I like pokémon. I like dragons. I like Charizard

I already gave my thoughts on how to change charizard earlier, so this will be my write up for the day. I vote

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just realized I was the only person to vote on Wii Fit, lol.
Here's Wii Fit Trainer's only vote https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1lKsGzNZV9janjS6vIaQfTjoZel5wxoIHrYIo4_B9Tqo/viewanalytics
and today we are doing....


Charizard! Here's his or her poll http://goo.gl/forms/4Mmgcu3X8J

Well actually, I'd say we couldn't since we already did Charizard earlier, but I clearly wasn't being clear enough about the whole we can't do a character twice thing, and it's the only vote for a character, so I'll make a exception today.

Now I want to ask you guys a question, would you guys rather have me keep the old voting rules where'd you only be able to vote for these guys


until we did them all once and then move on to other characters, or since we already made a exception, just throw all the voting rules out the window and make it so we can always vote for a rerate and every Smash 4 character is eligible immediately?

I'd say do these and move on to others later. That way it doesn't get confusing, and we don't select characters twice without them having changes in a patch that need to be discussed or acknowledged. I think we should talk about those who should be buffed first (Which I assume we are doing so now), then those that need to be nerfed (Which I be would only be Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Roslina & Luma, and even then only slightly), and the ones that don't need anything? We don't talk about them. Then we can move on to characters that aren't in Smash 4...Also, we just did Marth.

I don't have anything to say about Charizard.

And now that I know who hasn't been discussed, I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Voting for .

needs to be better in the air, because after all he's a dragon. More aerial speed and a third mid-air jump could actually fix all his problems.

EDIT: Yes, I did mean mid-air jump. Didn't know people thought up B's were considered jumps...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Voting for .

needs to be better in the air, because after all he's a dragon. More aerial speed and a third jump could actually fix all his problems.

Don't you mean a third "mid-air" jump? Charizard already has Fly for its third jump.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Don't you mean a third "mid-air" jump? Charizard already has Fly for its third jump.

If we're counting Fly then it's his 4th jump. Charizard has three jumps as is.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind Charizard having 4 jumps (Not counting Fly, I don't consider Up Specials to be jumps.). Based on my expiriance with Pit and Dark Pit, 4 jumps allows you to stop edge guarders just by jumping out of reach just long enough without falling and dying.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I am voting for , since I am interested in hearing what you guys think about the character.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

If we're counting Fly then it's his 4th jump. Charizard has three jumps as is.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind Charizard having 4 jumps (Not counting Fly, I don't consider Up Specials to be jumps.). Based on my expiriance with Pit and Dark Pit, 4 jumps allows you to stop edge guarders just by jumping out of reach just long enough without falling and dying.

I think he was joking about Fly being so bad it may as well be considered a jump.

 

[Zerp]

I'd say do these and move on to others later. That way it doesn't get confusing, and we don't select characters twice without them having changes in a patch that need to be discussed or acknowledged. I think we should talk about those who should be buffed first (Which I assume we are doing so now), then those that need to be nerfed (Which I be would only be Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Roslina & Luma, and even then only slightly), and the ones that don't need anything? We don't talk about them. Then we can move on to characters that aren't in Smash 4.

Yeah, I agree, I think we should just stick to the path I had planned out and just do the characters in order. I want to get through everyone who's mid or low tier before the patch hits.

Also, we just did Marth.

Whoops.
Seriously though, thanks for pointing that out, I might have never caught that.


Anyways, the RNG picked Ganon, so it's his day today.
Ganondorf's poll for today --> http://goo.gl/forms/QrQxx4scNJ
And here's Charizard's second batch of results
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WjUm5aML2DaEfd4lhddAU2TUrKjrlHikAbygf1FOxM4/viewanalytics



Here are the current people you ladies and gentlemen can vote for ~♪

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf is a slug at pretty much all forms of mobility. It also hurts knowing that Dark Dive doesn't deliver good knockback, which really hurts its offensive potential.

I know that Ganondorf needs to be slow to balance out his ridiculous attack power, but at least do something to help improve his poor recovery. You can't always rely on Dark Fists and Wizard's Dropkick to help you after all.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Voting for .

Oh, Ganondorf. Even after your plentiful buffs, your core issues still aren't fixed, and the worst part is, I'm not sure how they would approach fixing that. Perhaps make Wizard's Foot and forward air better at approaching? I'm not sure.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Ganon needs to be slow but not THIS slow.
Isn't his crap, predictable recovery, combo food-ness and slow kill moves enough to balance out his power? Why does he need to be so slow in everything, walk speed, run speed, most moves are pretty unsafe, Wizard Kick is laggy and slow, engaging a Warlock Punch is just asking to get grabbed (and you're already combo food, why would you want to make the process of your enemy starting a combo on you even easier?), Flame Choke is okay, but I've seen people tech-rool out of the way when they hit the ground so a Down Tilt followup is no guarantee...
I genuinely think Ganondorf is in this game so you can slap equipment in him and then try to take on Classic 9.0. Can't think any other reason.