The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L1N3R1D3R]

This has been annoying me for a while, but Zerp , can you fix the Character Ratings spoilers in your original posts? They're badly formatted with the spacing being non-uniform and the first spoiler only containing "Duck Hunt's rating:".

 

[Zerp]

This has been annoying me for a while, but Zerp , can you fix the Character Ratings spoilers in your original posts? They're badly formatted with the spacing being non-uniform and the first spoiler only containing "Duck Hunt's rating:".

I can't, whenever I delete the first spoiler, it just pops up again and unfortunately takes part of the one below it, so even when I delete and re-add "Duck Hunt's rating" to the correct one it will just cut that part into a different spoiler for some reason. It's only on some of my older posts though for some reason, but even as recent as yesterday and today, when I try to get rid of it on that one specific post it just pops right back up. I'm not sure if I can actually get rid of it.

The spacing I can and did fix though, so that part hopefully isn't a problem anymore.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Ganon loses to so many characters. I don't know if there is a worse matchup in the game than Ganon-Sheik. Ganon just needs some tools to beat campy playstyles, because it takes literally no effort to camp him out. If he has Wizard's dropkick as a custom he can deal with spammy projectiles, but without that it is absolutely painful to land a single hit. Like, I get it that his extreme power needs to be balanced, but at a competitive level of play, Ganon just can't land anything without a read, and that is a problem.

In terms of buffs, I would recommend making his Down-B beat out most projectiles, and clank with stronger projectiles, and have less end lag. This would help ganon beat spammy characters a bit. Also his double jump is extremely bad, and should gain at least a little more height. I would say buff his speed too, but I feel like that is Ganon's staple trait, and there are other ways to beat campers than just being fast. Although maybe his air speed could get a little better. Also decrease end lag off of Side-B on hit, because some characters can do a get-up attack before D-tilt can even come out. It should at least be a "tech or get hit" situation.

I vote for next

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In terms of buffs, I would recommend making his Down-B beat out most projectiles, and clank with stronger projectiles, and have less end lag. This would help ganon beat spammy characters a bit. Also his double jump is extremely bad, and should gain at least a little more height. I would say buff his speed too, but I feel like that is Ganon's staple trait, and there are other ways to beat campers than just being fast. Although maybe his air speed could get a little better. Also decrease end lag off of Side-B on hit, because some characters can do a get-up attack before D-tilt can even come out. It should at least be a "tech or get hit" situation.

This, but with one more thing: Make Wizard's Foot restore Ganondorf's double jump, aiding his recovery.

I also had the idea of allowing Warlock Punch to be canceled, and doing so would have Ganondorf send out a projectile that could be hit back with any attack (Like King Dedede's Gordo Throw, but not complete garbage), however I doubt that would happen in this game if ever, so for now it's just a cool idea, and not a serious change I would suggest for this game. (If that makes any sense to anyone but me.)

 

[Zerp]

I'm really busy today, the update will probably be pretty late, sorry.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Ganondorf's results:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10dq8lvXlwpIx2vtOWX0fbQbNKQk5Ei020IIsqfW_BJg/viewanalytics
and Mii Swordfighter got picked today so here's his/her poll: http://goo.gl/forms/QiWQubYG7g

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Heh, its funny, after I voted for Mii swordfighter the other day, I went to a tourney and fought a Mii swordfigher main for the first time. I gotta say Mii swordsman is better than a lot of people think, even with only 1111 customs. Now I have a good amount of stuff to say. Even though I voted for him, if I hadn't run into the swordfighter player, I wouldn't have anything to say.

He has a really cool D-air that can carry you all the way to the bottom blast zone, and he can still recover, and it is also a relatively safe approach option. All his other standard a moves are also not bad, but each one seems like there is another swordsman that does it better, even though the move is very similar. Ike has a better N-air, meta knight has a better F-air, link has a better U-air, and Cloud has a better B-air. (I would comment on tilts but I am not familiar enough with them. Pretty sure they are just like Marth's but worse) So most of Mii swordsman's moveset is basically a bunch of other swordsmen's moves but a little worse.

In terms of 1111 specials, it is a little lackluster, but some of them can surprise you. Neutral-B (the tornado thing) is a bit worse than shurikens of light, but it at least gives the Mii a projectile that can prevent him from being absolutely camped out. Side B can cover a deceptive amount of distance, but after the attack ends you are pretty vulnerable. Also it is not good in the neutral, basically just for recovering or punishing. Up B again covers a deceptive amount of distance, but almost no horizontal movement. So Mii swordsman's recovery is much like Ike in that he can recover vertically and horizontally very well, but not both. Down-B is a counter, and it seems to be a pretty strong counter. Not much to say about that I guess.

So Mii swordsman, even though certainly not the worst character in the game like the community voted tier list says, is still low or even bottom tier and needs buffs, so here is what I recommend:
1. Instead of the Mii swordsman having worse versions of other fighter's standard A attacks, make them just as good. None of the attacks that Mii swordsman borrows is ridiculous on the character it comes from, just really good, and that is exactly what swordsman needs to become at least a threat in tournies. Having Ike's N-air, Meta Knight's Fair, Cloud's B-air, and Link's U-air would make a serious, solid moveset if they were actually as good as they are when those characters use them.
2. Not really a buff, but Mii Swordsman (and the other miis) deserve to use any set of customs they want, not just 1111. They were designed to have customizable movesets so it is only fair to give them their better options.
3. Increase KO power on smashes. Mii swordsman's smashes do too little knockback, and he has to work really hard for every stock, while Roy can just F-smash someone at like 40 and kill them.

I vote for

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Still voting .

All needs, like Muskrat Catcher said, is for his attacks that are "clones" of other characters' attacks to be just as good as the source. He already has pretty good combos, great edgeguarding, and a good time killing (down throw --> sweetspot up air works).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Still voting .

All needs, like Muskrat Catcher said, is for his attacks that are "clones" of other characters' attacks to be just as good as the source. He already has pretty good combos, great edgeguarding, and a good time killing (down throw --> sweetspot up air works).

Actually, Mii Swordsmen have a terrible time killing. The main thing is that his/her Smash Attacks don't do enough damage to make up for their lag, and shouldn't be this laggy in the first place. Down Throw to Up Areal may work but it's probably the only thing that works, making it easier to read when the Mii Swordsmen is going in for the kill. Mii Swordsmen's ground game is poor as well. Most of his/her ground moves are slow, namely his/her Side Tilt. I think Mii Swordsmen needs some ground-based improvements as well, but I don't know what.

EDIT: Besides improving his Smash Attacks of course.

 

[GanonMain]

Swordfighter needs a spike. Their dair is about as strong as kirby's for meteor smashing, and stone scabbard can only be used if you ledge snap after. Otherwise, swordfighter dies first.

Swordfighter needs a spike. Their dair is about as strong as kirby's for meteor smashing, and stone scabbard can only be used if you ledge snap after. Otherwise, swordfighter dies first.

I think power thrust (3rd down special) should have spike ability in the initial frames

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

About spiking, down air isn't a true spike, but if you miss the last hit (which is easy to miss), you can drag them down with you and weakly meteor smash them at the end. It's actually more useful than it may sound.

 

[GanonMain]

About spiking, down air isn't a true spike, but if you miss the last hit (which is easy to miss), you can drag them down with you and weakly meteor smash them at the end. It's actually more useful than it may sound.

yeah, it has its uses. But i hope sakurai adds a way to spike with HYPE, where it makes that "plewsh" noise.

 

[Zerp]

Today be day.
Here's Mii swordfighter's results
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/14YoPsjIfuKGx5EXXgnq8rRJtrMjBAnqRO0C_kMp65cs/viewanalytics

And here's Little Mac's poll---> http://goo.gl/forms/bwctOUQwP9

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Voting for .

doesn't need much to be good outside of some loyal representation. His frame data is great, his super armor is helpful, and his setups especially into KO punch are amazing. The only thing I want them to buff about him is actually a reversal of a previous nerf: his aerial side-B distance. Why did that get nerfed, again? It's not like it would make him too much better at recovery, just enough to be tolerable for the Mac mains out there.

 

[GanonMain]

I vote foras well. As for mac, they need to change the super armor on his smashes. Maybe remove the armor on downsmash altogether, and change fsmash to heavy armor. Usmash can stay super i guess. And yes, bring back the old side b distance.

 

[Yoshister]

Mac's a solid high-mid character in my opinion, with super-armor smashes, really fast tilts, and easy kills.
He's pretty fine except for side-b's aerial distance. I'd like it to be how it was before its nerfs.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Little Mac already has the tools to be a powerful ground fighter. The main thing hurting him right now, however, is how awful his recovery is. Send Little Mac flying far enough, and even with a mid-air jump and Jolt Haymaker, he has very little chance of making it back onto the battlefield.

Still, Little Mac is terrible in the air, so his recovery has to be bad to further prove how awful his air game is.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Honestly, although Lil' Mac is kinda iffy... I can't imagine him any other way. I feel like he does what he's supposed to. He's a ridiculously strong ground fighter, but in the air, he struggles badly. That's his gimmick.
To me, buffing his air game would be like removing the Luma from Rosalina.

 

[Wiley]

Ganon loses to so many characters. I don't know if there is a worse matchup in the game than Ganon-Sheik. Ganon just needs some tools to beat campy playstyles, because it takes literally no effort to camp him out. If he has Wizard's dropkick as a custom he can deal with spammy projectiles, but without that it is absolutely painful to land a single hit. Like, I get it that his extreme power needs to be balanced, but at a competitive level of play, Ganon just can't land anything without a read, and that is a problem.

In terms of buffs, I would recommend making his Down-B beat out most projectiles, and clank with stronger projectiles, and have less end lag. This would help ganon beat spammy characters a bit. Also his double jump is extremely bad, and should gain at least a little more height. I would say buff his speed too, but I feel like that is Ganon's staple trait, and there are other ways to beat campers than just being fast. Although maybe his air speed could get a little better. Also decrease end lag off of Side-B on hit, because some characters can do a get-up attack before D-tilt can even come out. It should at least be a "tech or get hit" situation.

I vote for next

I think there are worse polarizing MU's than Gan/Sheik even at full camp. For instance Ness vs Rosa/villager, Little Mac/Cloud (try getting on stage vs cloud nair, nope. no effort for reads or placement needed.) Hell even Ryu is more annoying to me than Sheik as Gan. His down-b is so safe vs a heavy with only a couple multi hits (nair, down smash, down special... i guess) other than nair, you take a huge risk just messing with it so landing is hellish.
I just feel a lot less frustrated vs sheik than a lot of match ups, could just be my experience and playstyle... And maybe frustration =/= matchup potential but I'd way rather take my chances with 50/50s over cornball trump cards like casually stealing ness's up b and the other mentioned etc.

Yeah I would like to see that replacement from his down-B to custom down-B wizdropkick, and agree with your other areas of patching up. I've been pretty happy with the latest buffs we've been getting but I wouldn't say no to more ;D just nothing broken, I don't want a sea of Ganon's flowing in from cheese.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Voting for .

doesn't need much to be good outside of some loyal representation. His frame data is great, his super armor is helpful, and his setups especially into KO punch are amazing. The only thing I want them to buff about him is actually a reversal of a previous nerf: his aerial side-B distance. Why did that get nerfed, again? It's not like it would make him too much better at recovery, just enough to be tolerable for the Mac mains out there.

Pretty much this. Right now recovering with Jolt Haymaker is just like "I'm gonna make it! I'm gonna make it!...Didn't make it."

I vote foras well. As for mac, they need to change the super armor on his smashes. Maybe remove the armor on downsmash altogether, and change fsmash to heavy armor. Usmash can stay super i guess. And yes, bring back the old side b distance.

DO NOT do that! With a garbage recovery, Little Mac needs every advantage on the ground he has to stay on top. Besides, why would you nerf something that doesn't make the character overpowered in the first place?


I think Little Mac should have what ever landing lag his Up Areal has should be removed. This way he can deal with characters trying to camp him out by standing on the ledges above him.

 

[MarioMeteor]

To me, if they buff his air game, they have to nerf his ground game. There's only so many ways you can buff the character with the best ground game without making him broken up and down.

Voted Lucario.

 

[Zerp]

Why did that get nerfed, again?

Well, all the way back before the Wii-U title's release, Mr. Sakurai noted that Little Mac had the lowest win rate out of all characters on for Glory, and then proceeded to nerf his side B. He didn't like that the character wasn't being played "right". I'm fairly certain the reason he nerfed that wasn't for balance at all but rather his way of saying "Git Gud" to the rampant spammers back then.

Anyways, I'd agree that it should be undone, otherwise we could end being stuck with it forever. I personally think Little Mac's pretty balanced in a weird, polarizing way, I'd buff that side B back to shape and maybe one or two other small changes, and that'd be it imo.

Here's Little Mac's results
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WJHUQAEqqb4PGoTxLiFvgWX28ttZPSXGbmbbqFy8a08/viewanalytics

And here's Lucario's poll http://goo.gl/forms/T0NnbyZpKJ

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Lucario does seem to be better than its Brawl incarnation in that it has less trouble making KOs while leading now. Brawl was a huge pain for any leading Lucario, as its aura-based attacks became less powerful, making it very hard to make any KOs.

Still, even though its aura-based attacks have been improved, Lucario has its share of issues in Smash 4, which includes some of its attacks executing too slowly, and Force Palm's grab hitbox often feels inconvenient.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Voting for .

All needs to be really good is a couple of frames cut off of a few of his moves.That would let his combos be a bit better and his kill moves/setups land more consistently.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

WE are back from the grave guys. Let's hope those 10 year olds stay away

 

[MarioMeteor]

That was weird.

Lucario does seem to be better than its Brawl incarnation in that it has less trouble making KOs while leading now. Brawl was a huge pain for any leading Lucario, as its aura-based attacks became less powerful, making it very hard to make any KOs.

Still, even though its aura-based attacks have been improved, Lucario has its share of issues in Smash 4, which includes some of its attacks executing too slowly, and Force Palm's grab hitbox often feels inconvenient.

I don't know, I'd argue that Brawl Lucario was equal to or greater than Lucario.

I'll write more later. I've been waiting for this one.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I think Lucario's borderline high tier, and I feel he's well off, he doesn't need any changes in my opinion.
Anyways today, we're doing Roy, here's his poll http://goo.gl/forms/ubqSBTrXNj
and here's Lucario's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1hTDHQADOkGj3z8VYjcmDxMj-YInRa9KsCupJt43rF_8/viewanalytics

Also, I'd like to warn you guys ahead of time, after we're done rating Roy, I'm going to put this on hiatus for few days to let the Corrin/Bayonetta patch hype die down a little bit, not for long but just for 3 days or so.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Improving the range for Blazer would be a good start. It's the only thing that really hinders Roy's recovery.

Also, increasing the range of his sword attacks would be nice, even if they're sourspotted.

 

[Simperheve]

I agree with the idea of a range increase. Even a sourspotted Fair can be incredibly useful for spacing and the retention of momentum. Maybe a little less landing lag would be nice, as it's very easy to be punished if Roy hits a shield with his aerials. Suddenly you have absolutely no options to respond if the opponent goes for anything remotely quick.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think Roy's already high tier, but a range increase would be nice. They should also weaken the first three hits of DED like they did for Dancing Blade. I wish they'd give him his Melee down tilt, too.

 

[Serew]

In my opinion roy is somewhere in mid tier with high tier potential. (tier list have been placing him too low, but no results so can't blame them.) As for buffs.. hmm there's alot of small improvements that could really help.
The most common thing i've heard people ask for is Autocancel back air, aerial blazer armor, aerial blazer damage buff and range, also more range in general..
While i think those would be great buffs i'd also like something like less DED endlag, blazer less endlag when landing on stage. Oh yeah also a better dash grab
While we definitely don't need all of these, a few of them would be really nice

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Voting for .

Slightly better recovery and a very slightly longer and stronger sourspot on all attacks would make a serious threat again. Really, that's all he would need to fix his issues without utterly breaking him.

 

[Redline!]

What Roy really needs is a move that puts a hitbox out on frame 3 or 4, and at least one move (preferably an aerial) that's safe on shield drop.

Those are the two principal tools he needs that he lacks. It'd also be nice if he had some auto-cancel windows that are actually useful but we can make do without that, really.

Oh, and a boost to his air acceleration so he can DI out of juggles better and do sicknasty air chases, but I don't think any character has had such fundamental movement stuff changed in any patches so that's a pipe dream.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What Roy really needs is a move that puts a hitbox out on frame 3 or 4, and at least one move (preferably an aerial) that's safe on shield drop.

Those are the two principal tools he needs that he lacks. It'd also be nice if he had some auto-cancel windows that are actually useful but we can make do without that, really.

Oh, and a boost to his air acceleration so he can DI out of juggles better and do sicknasty air chases, but I don't think any character has had such fundamental movement stuff changed in any patches so that's a pipe dream.

If memory serves, Lucario had his air speed increased. I don't think Roy needs it, though, it's already one of the faster in the game. What I think he needs is lowered fall speed. He could have such an outstanding air game if he didn't fall at the speed of gravity.

 

[Redline!]

If memory serves, Lucario had his air speed increased. I don't think Roy needs it, though, it's already one of the faster in the game. What I think he needs is lowered fall speed. He could have such an outstanding air game if he didn't fall at the speed of gravity.

Roy's air speed is great, it's his air acceleration that hurts him. He's top 4 airspeed with a running start but he can't fade back once he's jumped forward (or vice-versa) at all without spending his double jump.

 

[randomguy1235]

Roy? He needs absolutely no buffs. Perfectly fine how he is.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Roy's air speed is great, it's his air acceleration that hurts him. He's top 4 airspeed with a running start but he can't fade back once he's jumped forward (or vice-versa) at all without spending his double jump.

Ah, I see. So kind of like Ryu, then. Though, my point still stands about his falling speed being too high.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Roy's results today, I'm pretty impressed by the voter turnout
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1e0CGp3yOelH7fsHU3podLJBWHeSMGmBzdRCn9EtgxzI/viewanalytics

We're on hiatus now for 3 days, so since we aren't following any schedule, feel free to talk abut any character you want.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I am wondering what you guys think about improving mii gunner. Personally, I think that the best way to improve the character without taking away the character's intended weaknesses (assuming that no other characters get buffs) is to make the hitboxes of reflector (1111 gunner's down b) match the animation. This change would improve Gunner's ability to get out of combos by giving Gunner a more reliable combo breaker, and it would make Gunner's reflector act differently from Fox's.

Although I would prefer a 5 frame endlag reduction on down throw, it would probably make Gunner's killing ability a little bit too powerful relative to the rest of the cast (it would probably make Gunner as good of a character as ROB). In my opinion, this change would be great if other characters were getting buffs as well.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I did some testing with Lucie and Marth yesterday.
Fully charged, against a Mario at the centre of FD, 3DS version and training mode:

• 's fully charged Tippered Side Smash killed at about the mid 40s,
• 's fully charged Side Smash killed at about the mid 70s,
• And I think 's non-Tippered Side Smash killed at exactly 100.

Honestly... I was really surprised at Lucie's kill power. It's... not as strong as I thought it'd be. That was honestly baffling.
But then I tested their Shield Breaker:

• 's fully charged and tippered SB killed at... only two percent less than his Side Smash did. I think his Side Smash killed at 47, his SB killed at 45.
• 's fully charged killed early 60s,
• 's fully charged non tippered killed at about... early 90s?

Honestly, why is Lucie's SB so much better than her Side Smash when comparing it in relation to Marth's attacks? Honestly, her SB is just better in general, IMO.