The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

Spoiler: Results for Week 1!

OOOOOOOO--OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO--O-O-----OOOO-OO-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-OOOOO-O--OOOO--OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-OOO--OOO-OOOOOOO--OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOOOOOO-O-OOO--OOOOOOO--O-OO-OO--OOOO--OX-O-O-----OO-O-OOOO-O-OOO--O-O-OOO-OOO-O---O----O-O--O------OO-O----OOO-O-O----O--O--------OXO--------O----------X--O----X---------X---
Community overall wants buffs, without opposition:
Community overall wants buffs, with little opposition:
Community overall wants buffs, with sizable opposition:

 

[MarioMeteor]

I find it funny that Mewtwo has sizeable opposition and Bowser has little opposition.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Spoiler: Results for Week 1!

OOOOOOOO--OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO--O-O-----OOOO-OO-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-OOOOO-O--OOOO--OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-OOO--OOO-OOOOOOO--OOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOOOOOO-O-OOO--OOOOOOO--O-OO-OO--OOOO--OX-O-O-----OO-O-OOOO-O-OOO--O-O-OOO-OOO-O---O----O-O--O------OO-O----OOO-O-O----O--O--------OXO--------O----------X--O----X---------X---
Community overall wants buffs, without opposition:
Community overall wants buffs, with little opposition:
Community overall wants buffs, with sizable opposition:

Yaaaaay Zelda had no opposition!

Calmly ignores the fact that Robin had sizable opposition.

Which ones are we going to vote on for Round 3?

 

[Furret24]

I find it funny that Mewtwo has sizeable opposition and Bowser has little opposition.

Well, Mewtwo's in a better state than Bowser at the moment so...

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well, Mewtwo's in a better state than Bowser at the moment so...

Very arguable. Mewtwo is still made of paper maché and still has ****ty hitboxes (****boxes, if you will), while Bowser can Hoo-Ha now.

 

[Deleted member]

Very arguable. Mewtwo is still made of paper maché and still has ****ty hitboxes (****boxes, if you will), while Bowser can Hoo-Ha now.

"Mewtwo is bad because he's LIGHT! hehehehe"

Also no. The only outright bad hitbox of his right now is his grab, everything else got hitbox size increases last patch.

 

[GreenMonkey]

"Mewtwo is bad because he's LIGHT! hehehehe"

Also no. The only outright bad hitbox of his right now is his grab, everything else got hitbox size increases last patch.

Yeah! Mewtwo got a lot of buffs in the latest patch. Bowser, too, especially with his Up-Throw.

In all honesty, I wouldn't mind a little upgrade to both of them, tho.

 

[MarioMeteor]

"Mewtwo is bad because he's LIGHT! hehehehe"

Also no. The only outright bad hitbox of his right now is his grab, everything else got hitbox size increases last patch.

Grab, up tilt, and forward air all have ****boxes. The only things that got size increases are back air and forward smash. Try again.

 

[lordvaati]

For the Mewtwo needs heavy crowd, The thing is going by his design that's not gonna happen.

Mewtwo and Lucario are designed to be opposites-M2 is a speedy mon with strong tools but has to avoid getting hit and tries to wrap things up clearly, vs. Lucario who has a more patient style by enduring in order to become tougher. In other words it's "Don't get Hit" vs. "Get Hit and punish."

maybe moving him up to the 80s may happen, but don't expect any drastic increases anytime soon.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Grab, up tilt, and forward air all have ****boxes. The only things that got size increases are back air and forward smash. Try again.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Mewtwo_(SSB4)#Update_history

Look at allllll of those buffs, especially the ones in the last patch, and tell me that B-air and F-smash are the only improved things. Some of those improvements may be small, but they're buffs nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member]

Grab, up tilt, and forward air all have ****boxes. The only things that got size increases are back air and forward smash. Try again.

"Forward aerial has moved forward one unit, giving it more range."

ayy lmao

Also no, up tilt doesn't have a bad hitbox as most believe. It's a great juggle tool and has kill confirms into up smash on every character at high percents.

 

[Furret24]

Very arguable. Mewtwo is still made of paper maché and still has ****ty hitboxes (****boxes, if you will), while Bowser can Hoo-Ha now.

Not really. Mewtwo's pretty obviously a midtier now while Bowser's still only low mid at best. Even with his new uthrow, his glaring flaws still remain, unlike Mewtwo, who's only major issue now is his weight (and his terrible grab, but he atleast has a fantastic throw game to make up for it), but then again, he is supposed to be a glass cannon. He's a lot faster and stronger now, his hitboxes were fixed (for the most part), his combo game is even better, and fair is even more insane.

Grab, up tilt, and forward air all have ****boxes. The only things that got size increases are back air and forward smash. Try again.

Uair was also fixed, fair was too. Utilt's hitbox is already okay. The only thing that needs a fix is grab.

Yeah! Mewtwo got a lot of buffs in the latest patch. Bowser, too, especially with his Up-Throw.

In all honesty, I wouldn't mind a little upgrade to both of them, tho.

Same. Mainly for Bowser, but it would be nice if they fixed grab and shaved a few frames of endlag off dthrow for Mewtwo as well. I mean, they even changed the angle of it, so why not go all the way?

Edit: Autocorrect is ****.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Not really. Mewtwo's pretty obviously a midtier now while Bowser's still only low mid at best. Even with his new uthrow, his glaring flaws still remain, unlike Mewtwo, who's only major issue now is his weight (and his terrible grab, but he atleast has a fantastic throw game to make up for it), but then again, he is supposed to be a glass cannon. He's a lot faster and stronger now, his hitboxes were fixed (for the most part), his combo game is even better, and fair is even more insane.

Uair was also fixed, fair was too. Utilt's hitbox is already okay. The only thing that needs a fix is grab.

Same. Mainly for Bowser, but it would be nice if they fixed grab and shaved a few frames of endlag off dthrow for Mewtwo as well. I mean, they even changed the angle of it, so why not go all the way?

Edit: Autocorrect is ****.

I agree with Mewtwo's D-throw, but I think Bowser's at least upper-mid tier by now.

On a completely irrelevant note, I need to get the money for Mewtwo.

 

[Furret24]

I agree with Mewtwo's D-throw, but I think Bowser's at least upper-mid tier by now.

I still think he's just low mid, maybe mid if you stretch it a little. Don't get me wrong, the new uthrow helped him a lot, but he's still easy to combo and juggle, has terrible walking speed, has almost no fast attacks, high landing lag, among other things.

Writing this post reminded me of Mewtwo's other big flaw, the fact that he's easy to combo and juggle. Guess that's why he's still only midtier. :/

 

[GreenMonkey]

I still think he's just low mid, maybe mid if you stretch it a little. Don't get me wrong, the new uthrow helped him a lot, but he's still easy to combo and juggle, has terrible walking speed, has almost no fast attacks, high landing lag, among other things.

Writing this post reminded me of Mewtwo's other big flaw, the fact that he's easy to combo and juggle. Guess that's why he's still only midtier. :/

Perhaps make their Nairs faster? Turn them into Villager's legendary frame 3 Nair!

Actually don't do that.

 

[Furret24]

Perhaps make their Nairs faster? Turn them into Villager's legendary frame 3 Nair!

Actually don't do that.

I don't think shaving 5 frames of landing lag off all of Bowser's aerials would be too much to ask for, would it?

Yes, let's not make Mewtwo's nair frame 3. That move already super good.

 

[GreenMonkey]

I don't think shaving 5 frames of landing lag off all of Bowser's aerials would be too much to ask for, would it?

Yes, let's not make Mewtwo's nair frame 3. That move already super good.

I like that idea. We should make a list of all the specific changes we want to make. Like a Google Docs or something that everyone can get access to.

 

[MarioMeteor]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Mewtwo_(SSB4)#Update_history

Look at allllll of those buffs, especially the ones in the last patch, and tell me that B-air and F-smash are the only improved things. Some of those improvements may be small, but they're buffs nonetheless.

If you haven't noticed, we're talking about hitboxes.

"Forward aerial has moved forward one unit, giving it more range."

ayy lmao

Also no, up tilt doesn't have a bad hitbox as most believe. It's a great juggle tool and has kill confirms into up smash on every character at high percents.

I don't know what you call a move that looks like it should hit behind a character blatantly missing, but I call that a bad hitbox.

Not really. Mewtwo's pretty obviously a midtier now while Bowser's still only low mid at best. Even with his new uthrow, his glaring flaws still remain, unlike Mewtwo, who's only major issue now is his weight (and his terrible grab, but he atleast has a fantastic throw game to make up for it), but then again, he is supposed to be a glass cannon. He's a lot faster and stronger now, his hitboxes were fixed (for the most part), his combo game is even better, and fair is even more insane.

And we're just going to forget that Mewtwo is also a punching bag with cat ears?

Uair was also fixed, fair was too. Utilt's hitbox is already okay. The only thing that needs a fix is grab.

When did up air need fixing?

 

[Koiba]

Wow now that I actually take the time and look at it, Mewtwo got some pretty big buffs.


Like, less landing lag and bigger hitboxes


Wow

I don't know what you call a move that looks like it should hit behind a character blatantly missing, but I call that a bad hitbox.

Can you give your definition of "good" and "bad" hitboxes? I always thought bad hitboxes are just hitboxes that are small.

 

[Deleted member]

You're trying to make Mewtwo sound like he's defenseless when he isn't. He has great mobility in the air and on the ground, amazing recovery with ways to mix it up thanks to Confusion, Teleport and his midair jump covering such high distance. Shadow Ball is the most powerful charged projectile in the game, not to mention it comes out quick, does massive shield damage and is a reliable KO move. Hell, even Disable has its uses and it has setups into it as well. Yes, he's light, but that's because he was designed to be a glass cannon. With all the buffs he got his design intention actually makes sense now.

Up air is actually pretty good now thanks to its increased knockback and it scales well with rage, which is something that's pretty cool.

 

[Furret24]

And we're just going to forget that Mewtwo is also a punching bag with cat ears?

And you're just going to ignore all of his great and numerous strengths and look at just his weaknesses?

 

[MarioMeteor]

And you're just going to ignore all of his great and numerous strengths and look at just his weaknesses?

I'm sorry, is that not what we're talking about? His weaknesses compared to Bowser? Don't get me wrong, Bowser's weaknesses are definitely a bit more glaring, considering he's the end-all be-all heavyweight, but Mewtwo's are definitely more crippling in comparison to his strengths.

Wow now that I actually take the time and look at it, Mewtwo got some pretty big buffs.


Like, less landing lag and bigger hitboxes


Wow


Can you give your definition of "good" and "bad" hitboxes? I always thought bad hitboxes are just hitboxes that are small.

If the animation justifies the hitbox being smal like, say, an uncharged Shadow Ball, then that's fine. But if the animation clearly depicts Mewtwo doing a backflip, yet the move is not hitting behind him, I consider that a bad hitbox. If you want a better example, look at Samus' dash attack.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wow now that I actually take the time and look at it, Mewtwo got some pretty big buffs.


Like, less landing lag and bigger hitboxes


Wow


Can you give your definition of "good" and "bad" hitboxes? I always thought bad hitboxes are just hitboxes that are small.

He's litertatly mid tier now. Like, 35th

 

[Furret24]

I'm sorry, is that not what we're talking about? His weaknesses compared to Bowser? Don't get me wrong, Bowser's weaknesses are definitely a bit more glaring, considering he's the end-all be-all heavyweight, but Mewtwo's are definitely more crippling in comparison to his strengths.

No? We're talking about Mewtwo and strengths and weaknesses compared to Bowser. At this point, I'd say it's pretty obvious Mewtwo's strengths are far better that Bowser's. While his weaknesses are glaring, they don't outweigh his strengths, unlike Bowser.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The funny thing is, it doesn't take much to KO Mewtwo. Bowser is much harder to KO early, all because of his much higher weight, and having flinch resistance against weaker attacks.

 

[lordvaati]

well it's kinda hard to debate the 2 since the only common weakness they share is being large, outsde of that their 2 biggest weakness are totally different(Mewtwo having low weight and Bowser having no safe ways to move in the air.)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Zerp So...what are we doing now? Talking about Mewtwo vs. Bowser?

 

[Furret24]

The funny thing is, it doesn't take much to KO Mewtwo. Bowser is much harder to KO early, all because of his much higher weight, and having flinch resistance against weaker attacks.

Yeah, a heavyweight surviving much longer than a lightweight? Who would've guessed?

Tough Guy is borderline useless though, and really needs a reworking.

Zerp So...what are we doing now? Talking about Mewtwo vs. Bowser?

Yup. :|

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yeah, a heavyweight surviving much longer than a lightweight? Who would've guessed?

Tough Guy is borderline useless though, and really needs a reworking.

And to think that people had high hopes for Bowser before Smash 3DS's official release.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Bowser's crouch complety oblitertates Mewtwo

But srrsly, Mewtwo is better than Bowser. Bowser's buff only moved him up one tier, at the bottom of that tier. And he was around the top of his old tier anyway.

Might be wrong though, never saw gameplay..

Mewtwo is mid tier now though, those buffs REALLY helped.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I guess it just goes to show that buffing even one move just isn't enough to change things. Bowser's up throw buff may be all well and good, but it's only really devastating on opponents who are caught in the middle of the attack, and NOT the grabbed opponent.

 

[Bowserboy3]

After a long think about this, I want to see others opinions on this matter. I think it is clear that Sheik needs some sort of nerf. However, they have nerfed her quite a bit now, and I thought of a perhaps reasonable way to nerf her...

• Fair Landing Lag reduced from 10 frames to 7 frames (Just hear me out here)
• Fair’s insane autocancel windows have been removed, rebalanced to be in line with most of her aerials (From Frame 11 to 31)

Now, let me explain this. You may be thinking... Hmm, even LESS landing lag on Fair? Surely that would be a huge buff right? On it's own, it would be, but tied in with the nerf below, it ends up being a nerf for Sheik. Let me explain.

I commonly see people complain about Sheik and say that the main nerf she needs is that her Fair needs actual landing lag. However, just slapping increased landing lag on her Fair wouldn't stop her being able to do her Fair strings. Why? Because it auto cancels any frame after frame 11. You could slap 60 frames of landing lag on Fair and she would still flawlessly do her damage racking Fair strings due to the auto cancelling frames. She takes 2 or 4 frames of landing lag from an auto cancel IIRC. If Fair's auto cancel frames were increased to 31, it would mean that fast falling Fair would mean she would take landing lag. However, too much landing lag would harm Sheik's playstyle, and 10 frames would probably be too much, which is why think lowering Fair's landing lag to 7 frames, and increasing the auto cancel windows like I mentioned would make Fair strings still possible, but just harder to pull off, and maybe even harder to pull off with Rage. Sheik, rather than taking 2-4 frames of landing lag by auto cancelling Fair, would take 7 frames of landing lag. Still insanely low landing lag, but more than what she currently takes.

Personally, I would like to see Needles act more like in Melee and Brawl, where they just stun the opponent and cause next to no knockback, rather thank knocking the opponent away.
Opinions?

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with the Sheik nerf, it's very logical actually.

Also, when people say 's dash attack has a bad hitbox I lol. It just comes out late, it being one of the best dash attacks in the game doesn't hurt either. It opens up opportunities for followups into so many moves.

 

[Zerp]

Yaaaaay Zelda had no opposition!

Calmly ignores the fact that Robin had sizable opposition.

Which ones are we going to vote on for Round 3?

Zerp So...what are we doing now? Talking about Mewtwo vs. Bowser?

We're doing the same stuff as last week, so basically just talking about what balance changes we want, and people could add their new votes or change their old ones if they want.

 

[lordvaati]

Every single day I keep pondering if Samus is only as mediocre as she is because of the feedback given at the Invitational.

If so then top players legit screwed a character out of being viable, which makes me kinda sick

 

[Wintermelon43]

Something else that should be thought of before making a patch idea, is the Brawler/Gunner/Swordfighter system. If a patch will change what type a character is, it probably will not happen, I could be wrong with this, but this is the categories:

Brawler:
Brawler/Gunner:

Gunner:

Gunner/Swordfighter:

Swordfighter:

Swordfighter/Brawler:

 

[lordvaati]

well Brawler is based on Mario, Swordfighter Link and Gunner Samus so I would think they would count as those types from default.

 

[Furret24]

And to think that people had high hopes for Bowser before Smash 3DS's official release.

We all thought he was mid tier back in the early days. Funnily enough, people also thought he was mid tier back in the early days of Brawl.

I'd argue these buffs do properly put him in low mid tier, possibly mid. Kill confirms from 90-120% on the whole cast is nothing to scoff at.

 

[wedl!!]

There is so much evidence suggesting Bowser is a really strong character. I don't think you guys understand how important having a really consistent punish game is for a character like Bowser, considering how easy he can lose momentum. Before the patch Bowser had poor reward so if he got hits in he'd need to be super safe. If he made one mistake he'd take twice the damage he put out. Getting consistent reward for his already great grab (his throws were just bad prepatch, plain and simple) makes him much scarier. Getting consistent kills early on a heavy who builds rage easy makes him much more intimidating. Having a consistent, strong punish game out of a grab is already a huge boon for characters (see: DK, who was not good before Cargo Throw buffs; the large majority of the cast also has throw setups as highly preferred punishes). It works even better for a character with a good grab like Bowser.

Also Mewtwo currently can't really be better than Bowser. Bowser has results, Mewtwo is just rhetoric. All over the world new Bowser has been making waves. Mewtwo's buffs, while huge (moving him from lower middle tier to the higher end), have no evidence. There's no way to concretely state that Mewtwo's better than Bowz; the evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Deleted member]

Hopefully we'll see what can do when Abadango pulls him out at Genesis 3. Gonna be insanely hype to see Mewtwo at a major for the first time.