The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[FamilyTeam]

The problem with staling it's that it only gets stale if you actually land the move.
Also: If we applied the buffs I proposed earlier for Marth and Lucina, I think they'd be really solid Mid-Tiers. Right now, they both have potential, but I feel like some others have more than then.
Still: Lucina's smashes are crazy strong, Depending on the rage and DI, the Shield Breaker and the Side Smash feel like they kill a good chunk of the cast in the 60% range (Marth's tippered Smashes are even more insane). Her aerials (and Marth's) are also good, but obviously they're pretty laggy when compared to how they were in other games. I feel like we still haven't seen anyone play Marth/Lucina to their full extent in this game.
It's not like their players help, though. My friend is a really good Marth, he seriously puts every single one of those Lucinas I see in small tournaments to shame, and he beats or atleast puts up a fight agains some rather good opponents using high tiers, and he always comes to me and says to a straight face that Marth is potential-less and that he's Low tier, and Lucina is Bottom.
Almost feels like he doesn't understand the goddamn character he's using.

 

[Koiba]

The problem with staling it's that it only gets stale if you actually land the move.

How is that bad?




I think your friend needs to be a tad bit more positive :D

After all just crying about how bad your character is won't get you anything accomplished.
If he truly thinks that Marth is tr4sh then why does he main him then. Why does he play a "trash" character? He obviously does some great things with him. If Marth was truly potential-less then he wouldn't be doing that well with him.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Well, I said "problem" because you said

And if they spam it they might as well kiss it goodbye because it's stale

yeah, but it'd staling only would be a problem for them if they actually landed any of that spam.

I think your friend needs to be a tad bit more positive :D

After all just crying about how bad your character is won't get you anything accomplished.
If he truly thinks that Marth is tr4sh then why does he main him then. Why does he play a "trash" character? He obviously does some great things with him. If Marth was truly potential-less then he wouldn't be doing that well with him.

This is kind of jumping to conclusions, but I will admit this crazy theory kind of makes sense:
I was always known as the "Mario guy" in our little Smash group when we were younger. And I'd always beat my friend with no difficulty back when we were all skrubz.
Then time passed... and we kind of forgot about Smash at around 2011. In mid last year, my friend started getting back into Smash since Smash 4 was about to be released. He started researching about the competitive aspects of Brawl and Melee... one day, he suddenly said he wanted to battle me in Smash for the first time in years... and then I noticed he had switched mains. To Marth in Melee and Marth/Meta Knight in Brawl.
Coincidentally, the one guy that's one of the few unfavourable matchups to Mario in both of those games, and is also placed far higher in Tier Lists.
Then Smash 4 came out, and his skills transferred over, naturally. He got really good really quickly with Marth because he has absolutely nothing better to do with his life and just practiced him all day for over an year. And now he treats his main like garbage and keeps talking about how much arse Marth supposedly sucks.

TLDR: He mains Marth probably because he's an unfavourable matchup to Mario in older Smash games and arguably still is in this one, and I'm his old time rival and solo Mario main.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I am going to just make a thing of buff and not buff, not do the 0 and X cause idk how to


Buff:

Now I am going to give some buff I would give all these characters!

Less ending lag on aerials and a kill throw
Combo and Kill Throws
Make Up B snap to ledge
Make it so the Gordos can not be hit back. Less Ending Lag on Aerials
Increase the height of his recovery. Make Down B also go higher when recovery.
Kill Throw and make smashes kill earlier.
Make Dair have less lag and give him a kill throw.
Make his smash attacks have less ending lag and startup and for style make warlock punch stronger :D
Make his smashes have less ending lag. We need to make Greninja atleast somewhat from before without making him like before.
Confirms into Rest. Make rest kill earlier. Make her slightly heavier. Remove the shield pop thing even though she is a balloon. And add a combo throw that could go into rest at kill percent.
Dair has less lag when hitting the stage
Buff his recovery options by making up b and I think side b snap to the ledge. Increasing the distance for both of them
Make him faster and give him a kill throw like Toon Link
Change her jab so it can go into aerials and not Foward Smash. Less Ending lag on all her aerials. Make her airspeed faster than marth.
Make more aerials combo into eachother. Decrease landing lag on all his aerials.
Make him heavier
Make his combo throw combo at higher percents. Decrease endlag on his smashes.
Make Side B last longer. Make warp go a farther distance. Increase area for the Dair spike. Kill Throw.
Not much at all, just make his recovery a little bit higher the height change would be smaller than the mac change.
Fix that jab. Make Nair better. Make all her moves link up properly. Decrease lag on charge shot.
Make Down throw a combo throw and give her a kill throw.
All aerials have less ending lag. The spike hit box for dair is made bigger. Make Sweetspots bigger and make sour spots better while increasing the sweetspot knock back and damage as well. Make Up smash have less start up and landing lag.
Make his smashes and aerials have smaller end lag. Increase monado art lasting time to 15 seconds.
Make Charizard lighter and/or give him a way to escape combos.

 

[Koiba]

Wait, what's going to happen with these results?

 

[GreenMonkey]

Wait, what's going to happen with these results?

I think we'll just eliminate the characters with less votes and move on to voting on the top 20 or so, and keep going until we have a list of characters that the majority of us believes should be buffed/nerfed.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Maybe we could even try to create another tier list with these results.

 

[Koiba]

o


I thought we were gonna sign a petition and show this to Sakurai and ask him to buff these chars

 

[FamilyTeam]

As if he of all people would listen.

 

[Thorizard]

Charizard needs 3 more jumps please, or to at least have jumps that send him somewhere vertically. A faster nair, uair, bair, and fair would be nice as well. If not fair or bair, increased flamethrower speed or damage please. Down throw needs to combo to be threatening like DK or Bowser or Ike, not just a fair and that's it. Flare Blitz needs to be Dragon Rush.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Buffed:


Stay the same:


Nerfed:
(But srrsly, No one nerfed)

 

[Furret24]

Make his combo throw combo at higher percents. Decrease endlag on his smashes.

Those buffs make no sense. His dthrow is already fantastic and combos up to 130% on most characters, it doesn't need buffs. His smashes already have low endlag, so that won't help anything either.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

If needs buffs, they would be to make his approach game better.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Those buffs make no sense. His dthrow is already fantastic and combos up to 130% on most characters, it doesn't need buffs. His smashes already have low endlag, so that won't help anything either.

Ah sorry about that I kept on confusion characters while making it. He does need better approach options and that should also be with Kirby

 

[Petersheikah]

Samus needs some buffs.
Her F Smash should have a better range and the sourspot should be smaller. F Tilt's sourspot should be removed, her side B needs to have less lag. Jab 1 should connect to 2, her Up Smash should make it so each hit connects. It also needs bigger hitboxes because it works only on taller characters. A small knockback buff to her Up Tilt could be nice too, to make it kill reliably.

 

[Furret24]

Ah sorry about that I kept on confusion characters while making it. He does need better approach options and that should also be with Kirby

I'm fine with him having a terrible approach. I just want him to have things to make up for it, like he did in Brawl.

 

[Panyr1990]

increase F-throw knock back (similar to Pit/ DP)
increase air and ground mobility slightly
allow gordos to CLASH with, not bounce back from lesser projectiles (mario/ luigi fire balls, pikachu thunder jolt, falco's laser, ect)
reduce cool down on F tilt and U tilt
REMOVE UP SMASH SOUR SPOT! It has such poor Knock back that the target can punish me after getting hit

 

[L9999]

Fix the inconsistencies of PKT wallbounce on left walls (I know it sounds stupid but It's true) to be easier to wallbounce and remove the stupid ass wall rickochet.

Give him consistent smash attacks and a killer Fthrow.

Combo Dtilt back, little more distance on Blazer, Flare Blade having a freaking hitbox on the freaking sword, anything that makes Bair and Dair CONSIDERABLE for use.

A general fix to hitboxes in relation to their animations, and a general fix to dairs.

 

[Deleted member]

Why is nobody here doing the character vote thing?

 

[MajorMajora]

Attention literally everyone on this thread, this is a PSA about game balance.

A lot of people are saying we should make Mewtwo heavier or make robin faster, but here's the thing: that's not how you balance games. It is important that each character has defined weaknesses and strengths, and the more defined the better. There are a number of reasons this is good, including:

• It feels good to utilize aspects of you're own character that feel 'powerful'.
• It feels good to overcome your opponent by taking advantage of specific weaknesses while simaulatneously overcoming the strengths.
• It gives each character a unique identity.
• It helps guarantee there is always counterplay at higher levels of play.

So Cloud and Mac will never get ledge snap, Mewtwo will stay light, etc.. They still can be buffed, but it should be by promoting their strengths.

Also, it's important to understand the idea that there are multiple levels of play. The best example I can give is heavies.

Now, heavies like Bowser and ganondorf are widely considered the strongest by new players. They have th emost success with and the most trouble facing these characters. This is due to a number of reasons, but in general as you see people go from casual, to competitive (for glory), to professional (tournaments), you see heavies get increasingly weaker. Many of us want heavies buffed so that they are viable at the professional level. However, simple buffs make them far too strong at casual levels. Many people suggest "locking" the power under complex features, such as hoo-hahs, but if the power is too easy to unlock it will quickly overpower the lower end of competitive, and even then it might not be enough to make them professionally viable. So take this into account when you say certain heavies should be buffed.

This is very interesting considering the first part of this post: to new players Robin's special moves are very powerful. Now, if we want to make Robin stronger, we'd want to improve the parts of him/her that are already strong instead of making them faster. However, if we buff his special moves it might become overwhelming at the casual level, which could lead to far greater consequences than however much it shifts Robin in the tiers, if at all.

I have to leave for a new years party soon so I can't get my word in yet, but I'll give my thoughts tomorrow.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think nerfing Sheik's air speed might make her feel less overpowering.

 

[Koiba]

Attention literally everyone on this thread, this is a PSA about game balance.

A lot of people are saying we should make Mewtwo heavier or make robin faster, but here's the thing: that's not how you balance games. It is important that each character has defined weaknesses and strengths, and the more defined the better. There are a number of reasons this is good, including:

• It feels good to utilize aspects of you're own character that feel 'powerful'.
• It feels good to overcome your opponent by taking advantage of specific weaknesses while simaulatneously overcoming the strengths.
• It gives each character a unique identity.
• It helps guarantee there is always counterplay at higher levels of play.

So Cloud and Mac will never get ledge snap, Mewtwo will stay light, etc.. They still can be buffed, but it should be by promoting their strengths.

Also, it's important to understand the idea that there are multiple levels of play. The best example I can give is heavies.

Now, heavies like Bowser and ganondorf are widely considered the strongest by new players. They have th emost success with and the most trouble facing these characters. This is due to a number of reasons, but in general as you see people go from casual, to competitive (for glory), to professional (tournaments), you see heavies get increasingly weaker. Many of us want heavies buffed so that they are viable at the professional level. However, simple buffs make them far too strong at casual levels. Many people suggest "locking" the power under complex features, such as hoo-hahs, but if the power is too easy to unlock it will quickly overpower the lower end of competitive, and even then it might not be enough to make them professionally viable. So take this into account when you say certain heavies should be buffed.

This is very interesting considering the first part of this post: to new players Robin's special moves are very powerful. Now, if we want to make Robin stronger, we'd want to improve the parts of him/her that are already strong instead of making them faster. However, if we buff his special moves it might become overwhelming at the casual level, which could lead to far greater consequences than however much it shifts Robin in the tiers, if at all.

I have to leave for a new years party soon so I can't get my word in yet, but I'll give my thoughts tomorrow.

Each character gives a different colour in the roster. Just making everything "good" or "bad" would ruin the point of a unique character.
Making mac have a better airgame ruins the point of a ground based fighter. Maybe that's why they nerfed his nair. They also nerfed jab because the noobs thought it was pretty op.

 

[MarioMeteor]

That's true... I guess I was being overly-biased again. But I still believe Pit needs to be slightly nerfed.

...What? You've got people like Sheik running around forward airing people off the stage and you want to nerf Pit?

 

[GreenMonkey]

...What? You've got people like Sheik running around forward airing people off the stage and you want to nerf Pit?

I think you need to read the few posts after that before criticizing. I did originally mention nerfing Pit, but my opinion was swayed.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think you need to read the few posts after that before criticizing. I did originally mention nerfing Pit, but my opinion was swayed.

Ah.

On the subject of game balance, I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that Jigglypuff needs a few buffs thrown her way. Down throw should be a combo throw, up throw should kill, and up tilt should have less growth and a bigger hitbox. Although killing with struggle up tilts is fun, a consistent combo tool would be better. It also would help if her smash attacks weren't ass. Sing, too.

 

[allison]

Attention literally everyone on this thread, this is a PSA about game balance.

A lot of people are saying we should make Mewtwo heavier or make robin faster, but here's the thing: that's not how you balance games. It is important that each character has defined weaknesses and strengths, and the more defined the better. There are a number of reasons this is good, including:

• It feels good to utilize aspects of you're own character that feel 'powerful'.
• It feels good to overcome your opponent by taking advantage of specific weaknesses while simaulatneously overcoming the strengths.
• It gives each character a unique identity.
• It helps guarantee there is always counterplay at higher levels of play.

So Cloud and Mac will never get ledge snap, Mewtwo will stay light, etc.. They still can be buffed, but it should be by promoting their strengths.

Also, it's important to understand the idea that there are multiple levels of play. The best example I can give is heavies.

Now, heavies like Bowser and ganondorf are widely considered the strongest by new players. They have th emost success with and the most trouble facing these characters. This is due to a number of reasons, but in general as you see people go from casual, to competitive (for glory), to professional (tournaments), you see heavies get increasingly weaker. Many of us want heavies buffed so that they are viable at the professional level. However, simple buffs make them far too strong at casual levels. Many people suggest "locking" the power under complex features, such as hoo-hahs, but if the power is too easy to unlock it will quickly overpower the lower end of competitive, and even then it might not be enough to make them professionally viable. So take this into account when you say certain heavies should be buffed.

This is very interesting considering the first part of this post: to new players Robin's special moves are very powerful. Now, if we want to make Robin stronger, we'd want to improve the parts of him/her that are already strong instead of making them faster. However, if we buff his special moves it might become overwhelming at the casual level, which could lead to far greater consequences than however much it shifts Robin in the tiers, if at all.

I have to leave for a new years party soon so I can't get my word in yet, but I'll give my thoughts tomorrow.

This guy knows what's up! It always bugs me when people talk about buffing Mac's airgame or Jiggs' ground game.

 

[MajorMajora]

So here's my thoughts on the matter. Mostly flying by the seat of my pants on this post but it's not like I haven't thought of it before.

The way I classify characters in my own personal tier list is in terms of gatekeeping. Think of it this way: In just about any fight between an A tier character and an S tier character, or a B tier character and an A tier character, the most skilled player will most likely win, exceptional matchups not withstanding. B tier characters, however, have a significant disadvantage against S tiers, and C tiers have a significant disadvantage against A and S tiers, and so on. Such tier lists can, theoretically, be made for all level of competition, which I separate into casual (little to no focus on metagame, tech, or sophisticated theory), low-level competitive ("for glory"), and professional-competitive (high placing tournament goers). Most people here are probably at the low-level competitive level, for example. However, I am more studied in the professional level (it's what is talked about in the competitive smash section the most and is the general topic of all theory discussion, not to mention being the most viewed level of smash on streams). I will therefore focus my statements on balancing based around the professional level, simply keeping the other levels in mind.

The A-S tiers of Smash 4's professional scene are most likely the "Top 15" characters, or some large portion of these characters. There are arguments as to who the S-tiers are, but the ideal situation would be to move these S-tiers down in power enough so that fewer B-tiers are disenfranchised by them, moving them up to the A tier.

is a clear gatekeeper, and the almost undeniable best character in the game. As I mentioned in a previous post, it is important for a character to have defined strengths and weaknesses. It feels good to use your strengths and work around your weaknesses, as well as to utilize enemy weaknesses and get around enemy strengths. Sheik, however, while possessing many strengths, lacks weaknesses. Many suggest limiting her strengths, but I feel this would make her less fun to play and overall rather bland. Sure, her keepaway and frame data are superb, but they are supposed to be. One possible weakness to exploit is low killing power. If she has very few kill options, then not only does she have to be creative to kill (something that is satisfying to pull off), but a smart player will know how to keep her away from getting in with her. Therefore I suggest the following changes:

• uair launch angle changed to be drastically more horizontal. Pretty much useless as a kill option, but still a viable damage racking move.
• Bouncing Fish scaling knockback decreased, limiting it's potential killing power.

Therefore, Sheik relies on upB and smashes to kill, and smart players will know how to avoid this. Sure, she'll rack up damage fast, but if she can't kill you you have the opportunity to kill her first regardless.

is another gatekeeper, so I feel something has to change with her. She is a complex character, so she should be quite strong when she's in the right hands, so I don't have a problem with her being at the top, but I do think she needs some tuning. Specifically, more of her strength should be focused in Luma. This does 2 things. A: There is more of a reward for keeping Luma alive or for killing Luma, B: It focuses more power around her more skill-intensive areas, thereby making her less abusable. I would suggest the following changes, though since I don't know that much about her these are really just coming out of my ass.

• Decreased hitbox on Rosalina's jab, not on Luma's.
• Later FAF frames on uair.
• Slightly increased endlag on Smash attacks, some increased landing lag on some ariels.
• Less damage on some of Rosalina's standard moves, not Luma's.
• Increased knockback on most of Luma's attacks.
• Decreased knockback on Rosalina's smash attacks.
  
• Possible increase in damage on some of Luma's attacks.

That's all I'll post for now since this took a while and I have an essay to write, but these are the two I''ve thought the most about.

 

[GreenMonkey]

So here's my thoughts on the matter. Mostly flying by the seat of my pants on this post but it's not like I haven't thought of it before.

The way I classify characters in my own personal tier list is in terms of gatekeeping. Think of it this way: In just about any fight between an A tier character and an S tier character, or a B tier character and an A tier character, the most skilled player will most likely win, exceptional matchups not withstanding. B tier characters, however, have a significant disadvantage against S tiers, and C tiers have a significant disadvantage against A and S tiers, and so on. Such tier lists can, theoretically, be made for all level of competition, which I separate into casual (little to no focus on metagame, tech, or sophisticated theory), low-level competitive ("for glory"), and professional-competitive (high placing tournament goers). Most people here are probably at the low-level competitive level, for example. However, I am more studied in the professional level (it's what is talked about in the competitive smash section the most and is the general topic of all theory discussion, not to mention being the most viewed level of smash on streams). I will therefore focus my statements on balancing based around the professional level, simply keeping the other levels in mind.

The A-S tiers of Smash 4's professional scene are most likely the "Top 15" characters, or some large portion of these characters. There are arguments as to who the S-tiers are, but the ideal situation would be to move these S-tiers down in power enough so that fewer B-tiers are disenfranchised by them, moving them up to the A tier.

is a clear gatekeeper, and the almost undeniable best character in the game. As I mentioned in a previous post, it is important for a character to have defined strengths and weaknesses. It feels good to use your strengths and work around your weaknesses, as well as to utilize enemy weaknesses and get around enemy strengths. Sheik, however, while possessing many strengths, lacks weaknesses. Many suggest limiting her strengths, but I feel this would make her less fun to play and overall rather bland. Sure, her keepaway and frame data are superb, but they are supposed to be. One possible weakness to exploit is low killing power. If she has very few kill options, then not only does she have to be creative to kill (something that is satisfying to pull off), but a smart player will know how to keep her away from getting in with her. Therefore I suggest the following changes:

• uair launch angle changed to be drastically more horizontal. Pretty much useless as a kill option, but still a viable damage racking move.
• Bouncing Fish scaling knockback decreased, limiting it's potential killing power.

Therefore, Sheik relies on upB and smashes to kill, and smart players will know how to avoid this. Sure, she'll rack up damage fast, but if she can't kill you you have the opportunity to kill her first regardless.

is another gatekeeper, so I feel something has to change with her. She is a complex character, so she should be quite strong when she's in the right hands, so I don't have a problem with her being at the top, but I do think she needs some tuning. Specifically, more of her strength should be focused in Luma. This does 2 things. A: There is more of a reward for keeping Luma alive or for killing Luma, B: It focuses more power around her more skill-intensive areas, thereby making her less abusable. I would suggest the following changes, though since I don't know that much about her these are really just coming out of my ***.

• Decreased hitbox on Rosalina's jab, not on Luma's.
• Later FAF frames on uair.
• Slightly increased endlag on Smash attacks, some increased landing lag on some ariels.
• Less damage on some of Rosalina's standard moves, not Luma's.
• Increased knockback on most of Luma's attacks.
• Decreased knockback on Rosalina's smash attacks.
  
• Possible increase in damage on some of Luma's attacks.

That's all I'll post for now since this took a while and I have an essay to write, but these are the two I''ve thought the most about.

I like your idea with accentuating the strengths/weaknesses of each character. With , I think if Bouncing Fish's knockback is decreased, then perhaps the endlag after she kicks and misses should be decreased as well. Because if BF is used less as a killing option and more as a recovery move, then I think it would be better for it to be faster.

For , I like the concept of focusing on Luma more than Rosa herself. However, I think increased knockback with Luma's attacks is unnecessary seeing how strong Luma already is.

 

[MajorMajora]

I like your idea with accentuating the strengths/weaknesses of each character. With , I think if Bouncing Fish's knockback is decreased, then perhaps the endlag after she kicks and misses should be decreased as well. Because if BF is used less as a killing option and more as a recovery move, then I think it would be better for it to be faster.

For , I like the concept of focusing on Luma more than Rosa herself. However, I think increased knockback with Luma's attacks is unnecessary seeing how strong Luma already is.

Bouncing fish is already way too good for getting out of disadvantage. We don't need it to be safer.

And with Rosa, I feel like the other changes are so drastic it fits to give her slightly earlier kills if she plays right, considering how she gets more punished for playing wrong. Besides, you kind of want her to be really strong since she's high skill.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Last I've checked, Bouncing Fish is not a foolproof move, but perhaps I haven't been using it right.

 

[MajorMajora]

Last I've checked, Bouncing Fish is not a foolproof move, but perhaps I haven't been using it right.

And it's not supposed to be. Maybe I overexaggerated it, but it's very useful now, and it's not even used for killing all that much anymore since uair is so good out of throw. It'd be fine even if knock back got nerfed.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know that not everyone is going to like what I've inputted below, but the following is kind of how I feel that the air speed values should've been like...

Ranking | Character(s) | Air Speed Value
1 | | 1.28
2 | | 1.269
3-4 | | 1.25
5 | | 1.24
6 | | 1.21
7-8 | | 1.2
9 | | 1.19
10-11 | | 1.18
12-15 | | 1.15
16 | | 1.12
17-20 | | 1.1
21 | | 1.09
22-26 | | 1.08
27 | | 1.06
28-31 | | 1.05
32 | | 1.04
33 | | 1.02
34-36 | | 1
37 | | 0.987
38 | | 0.97
39 | | 0.96
40 | | 0.9588
41-42 | | 0.95
43 | | 0.943
44 | | 0.94
45 | | 0.9118
46-47 | | 0.9
48 | | 0.893
49 | | 0.89
50 | | 0.88
51 | | 0.85
52 | | 0.82
53 | | 0.8
54 | | 0.79
55 | | 0.75
56 | | 0.658

 

[GreenMonkey]

I know that not everyone is going to like what I've inputted below, but the following is kind of how I feel that the air speed values should've been like...

Ranking | Character(s) | Air Speed Value
1 | | 1.28
2 | | 1.269
3-4 | | 1.25
5 | | 1.24
6 | | 1.21
7-8 | | 1.2
9 | | 1.19
10-11 | | 1.18
12-15 | | 1.15
16 | | 1.12
17-20 | | 1.1
21 | | 1.09
22-26 | | 1.08
27 | | 1.06
28-31 | | 1.05
32 | | 1.04
33 | | 1.02
34-36 | | 1
37 | | 0.987
38 | | 0.97
39 | | 0.96
40 | | 0.9588
41-42 | | 0.95
43 | | 0.943
44 | | 0.94
45 | | 0.9118
46-47 | | 0.9
48 | | 0.893
49 | | 0.89
50 | | 0.88
51 | | 0.85
52 | | 0.82
53 | | 0.8
54 | | 0.79
55 | | 0.75
56 | | 0.658

I feel like an amateur for asking this, but what does the air speed values exactly mean?

 

[Zerp]

I feel like an amateur for asking this, but what does the air speed values exactly mean?

It means how fast a character is at their top speed in the air, the higher the number is the faster the character can move in the air. So basically, if Waluigi had a airspeed value of 1.2 and Eggman had one of 0.6, it would mean Waluigi at top speed moves two times as fast as Eggman does in the air. Here's a reference if your still confused, hope this helps!

 

[GreenMonkey]

It means how fast a character is at their top speed in the air, the higher the number is the faster the character can move in the air. So basically, if Waluigi had a airspeed value of 1.2 and Eggman had one of 0.6, it would mean Waluigi at top speed moves two times as fast as Eggman does in the air. Here's a reference if your still confused, hope this helps!

Oh okie. Thanks, Zero!

... poor Dedede moves almost half the speed of Yoshi in the air.

 

[Deleted member]

So uh, what are we doing now? Literally nobody bothered doing the "buff/nerf" voting except a few people lmao

 

[Furret24]

Edit: 'd yet again.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Zerp When are you going to compile all of the votes for the second round?

 

[Zerp]

Wait, what's going to happen with these results?

Not much really, there'll just be the weekly results, I just want to see what the community's consensus is and to be able to keep track of how it evolves over time.

So uh, what are we doing now? Literally nobody bothered doing the "buff/nerf" voting except a few people lmao

Yeah, not many people voted, which would normally make me kinda sad, but I'm seeing and enjoying a lot of thought put behind some votes so I'm feeling pretty content with the voter turnout despite the low numbers.
Anyways, what we're doing now other than voting is just what's been going on here anyway, discussing what kinds of changes we want in patches, really, that's it .

Zerp When are you going to compile all of the votes for the second round?

I'm compiling the first week (this round)'s voting results on January 3rd, which happens to be tomorrow, so I'll say (not promising though) that I'd probably be able to compile the results for this week around 4:00 PM tomorrow Central European Time.
Edit: things came up, sorry but I had to delay it a bit, expect it around 6 PM

 

[MarioMeteor]

This guy knows what's up! It always bugs me when people talk about buffing Mac's airgame or Jiggs' ground game.

The difference between Mac and Jigglypuff is that Mac's ground game is good enough to make up for his air game, while the opposite cannot be said for Jigglypuff.

So here's my thoughts on the matter. Mostly flying by the seat of my pants on this post but it's not like I haven't thought of it before.

The way I classify characters in my own personal tier list is in terms of gatekeeping. Think of it this way: In just about any fight between an A tier character and an S tier character, or a B tier character and an A tier character, the most skilled player will most likely win, exceptional matchups not withstanding. B tier characters, however, have a significant disadvantage against S tiers, and C tiers have a significant disadvantage against A and S tiers, and so on. Such tier lists can, theoretically, be made for all level of competition, which I separate into casual (little to no focus on metagame, tech, or sophisticated theory), low-level competitive ("for glory"), and professional-competitive (high placing tournament goers). Most people here are probably at the low-level competitive level, for example. However, I am more studied in the professional level (it's what is talked about in the competitive smash section the most and is the general topic of all theory discussion, not to mention being the most viewed level of smash on streams). I will therefore focus my statements on balancing based around the professional level, simply keeping the other levels in mind.

The A-S tiers of Smash 4's professional scene are most likely the "Top 15" characters, or some large portion of these characters. There are arguments as to who the S-tiers are, but the ideal situation would be to move these S-tiers down in power enough so that fewer B-tiers are disenfranchised by them, moving them up to the A tier.

is a clear gatekeeper, and the almost undeniable best character in the game. As I mentioned in a previous post, it is important for a character to have defined strengths and weaknesses. It feels good to use your strengths and work around your weaknesses, as well as to utilize enemy weaknesses and get around enemy strengths. Sheik, however, while possessing many strengths, lacks weaknesses. Many suggest limiting her strengths, but I feel this would make her less fun to play and overall rather bland. Sure, her keepaway and frame data are superb, but they are supposed to be. One possible weakness to exploit is low killing power. If she has very few kill options, then not only does she have to be creative to kill (something that is satisfying to pull off), but a smart player will know how to keep her away from getting in with her. Therefore I suggest the following changes:

• uair launch angle changed to be drastically more horizontal. Pretty much useless as a kill option, but still a viable damage racking move.
• Bouncing Fish scaling knockback decreased, limiting it's potential killing power.

Therefore, Sheik relies on upB and smashes to kill, and smart players will know how to avoid this. Sure, she'll rack up damage fast, but if she can't kill you you have the opportunity to kill her first regardless.

is another gatekeeper, so I feel something has to change with her. She is a complex character, so she should be quite strong when she's in the right hands, so I don't have a problem with her being at the top, but I do think she needs some tuning. Specifically, more of her strength should be focused in Luma. This does 2 things. A: There is more of a reward for keeping Luma alive or for killing Luma, B: It focuses more power around her more skill-intensive areas, thereby making her less abusable. I would suggest the following changes, though since I don't know that much about her these are really just coming out of my ***.

• Decreased hitbox on Rosalina's jab, not on Luma's.
• Later FAF frames on uair.
• Slightly increased endlag on Smash attacks, some increased landing lag on some ariels.
• Less damage on some of Rosalina's standard moves, not Luma's.
• Increased knockback on most of Luma's attacks.
• Decreased knockback on Rosalina's smash attacks.
  
• Possible increase in damage on some of Luma's attacks.

That's all I'll post for now since this took a while and I have an essay to write, but these are the two I''ve thought the most about.

I think the opposite should happen. I think some of Luma's strength should go to Rosalina. Obviously, a weak character reliant on one strong character is going to induce some salt when the strong character KOs at 70% and the weak one can only run away. Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs. Her smash attacks are weak enough. If Rosalina were to become stronger, Rosalina players would rejoice at the main focus of the character (ROSALINA and Luma) becoming the half that she's supposed to be, and people fighting Rosalina won't ***** about Luma being too strong or about Rosalina running away. All in all, she doesn't need to be nerfed, she needs to be reworked.