The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Deleted member]

A'ight, here's my vote!

 

[MarioMeteor]

The sole reason he's there is because I feel people can probably still turn him into something else. He's an OK character right now, but maybe someone will someday rise and show us their moves with Roy.
If that never happens you can place him right in front of Marth, IMO.

You mean like Static Manny or Sethlon?

 

[FamilyTeam]

You mean like Static Manny or Sethlon?

Yeah, people like them to some extent.

 

[Deleted member]

You mean like Static Manny or Sethlon?

You're also forgetting NEO and ZeRo.

 

[Bowserboy3]

BUFF
-Slightly increase sword size, giving them slightly more range overall

Just pointing you out on this, but their sword does not need to be bigger. It is actually a misconception that their sword is shorter than Brawl Marth, and that mainly stems from their main killing move, Fsmash, being noticably smaller due to an altered animation.

In fact, most of their moves have MORE range than Brawl Marth. Here, take a gander at this - http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624 - Really, only Fsmash needs a slight range buff, by just altering the animation to be closer to Brawl's animation.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You're also forgetting NEO and ZeRo.

Oh yeah, how could I forget Neo?

Yeah, people like them to some extent.

Some extent? What more do you need? There's three royal, I mean loyal Roy mains that show just how threatening the character can be. Manny in particular regularly goes toe to toe with Ryo, one of the better Smash 4 players who mains one of the better characters in the game.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Some extent? What more do you need? There's three royal, I mean loyal Roy mains that show just how threatening the character can be. Manny in particular regularly goes toe to toe with Ryo, one of the better Smash 4 players who mains one of the better characters in the game.

Kind of meant it as "there are probably more", sorry if it wasn't clear o3o I don't watch Roy all that much.

 

[Lag Chan]

I'll do the thing then. (Updated to be in exact order)
Lower Mid

Low

Bottom

 

[FamilyTeam]

Low

Bottom

I don't think Marth is Low-Tier, much less Lucina Bottom. Marth is surely not as good as his Brawl counterpart much less his Melee one, but he's not terrible. And, while sometimes having the tipper would be nice, I don't think that automatically makes her an entire tier behind Marth.

 

[Lag Chan]

I don't think Marth is Low-Tier, much less Lucina Bottom. Marth is surely not as good as his Brawl counterpart much less his Melee one, but he's not terrible. And, while sometimes having the tipper would be nice, I don't think that automatically makes her an entire tier behind Marth.

Oh yeah, I entirely agree. I wasn't a big fan of the "Marth is bottom tier" crowd that was very vocal in the early stages of the meta. If I was being specific about placements, I'd put Marth at the very brink of the low tier, like he is really good in places but I feel his negatives really outweigh him, badly. Doesn't need anything drastic, just a few tweaks to make him match up with others better.

About Lucina, it's all down to how i've barely seen any good play from her. The very few matches I've seen seem like she's incredibly limited with her moveset, like a vast majority seems to be fair, ftilt and fsmash with the occasional grab and side b. I'm sure there is room for potential in her to be a bigger threat but right now she has so little representation it's hard for me to see her in full swing.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Oh yeah, I entirely agree. I wasn't a big fan of the "Marth is bottom tier" crowd that was very vocal in the early stages of the meta. If I was being specific about placements, I'd put Marth at the very brink of the low tier, like he is really good in places but I feel his negatives really outweigh him, badly. Doesn't need anything drastic, just a few tweaks to make him match up with others better.

About Lucina, it's all down to how i've barely seen any good play from her. The very few matches I've seen seem like she's incredibly limited with her moveset, like a vast majority seems to be fair, ftilt and fsmash with the occasional grab and side b. I'm sure there is room for potential in her to be a bigger threat but right now she has so little representation it's hard for me to see her in full swing.

Hmm, maybe, in my eyes, Lucina rewards a different playstyle than Marth. With Marth, you need to go for the tip, so you need to be far more calculated, more technical, space properly, be incredibly smart if you want to kill any earlier than 180%. With Lucina, since you're not tied to the tipper mechanic so badly, I feel that you can be far more quick, far more fast paced. Atleast when I play seriously with both characters, I far more often seem to KO before 90% with Lucina than I do with Marth. That might just mean I'm not spacing properly, but that might also mean Lucina just fights my playstyle more.
Basically, she's easier to do better with when compared to Marth, in a way. That makes me choose her over Marth, but I do recognize that, for people who can consistently hit tippers, Marth is obviously a better choice.

 

[Zerp]

Just as a reminder, today's the last day to vote, I'm accepting votes until it's Dec 27th in every timezone so, if you happen to care about what the list looks like and haven't voted yet, please vote before then!

 

[FamilyTeam]

I'd like to adjust a few things I recommended in the tier list I made.

So, these are the people that I think are Top and High tier, and pretty much almost in this order:

After thinking about it, watching a few more matches, considering a few more matchups, this is my new list:

Top:

High:

Middle:

 

[RIP|Merrick]

It's silly and comical, but oh my goodness, Luigi getting his head stuck in a wall from side special occasionally is atrocious. Between his awful frame data to recover (minimum startup of 22 frames on side special!?) and getting burrowed to hell from a few proper meteors offstage, I think that it can be safety removed.

Like...why, rofl. Why is that a thing?

 

[Zerp]

So here's the results:

Spoiler

10 9 10 7 10 4 10 10 9 9 9 8 6 10 9 9 9 5 8 10 9 7 2 10 10 1 5 3 10 2 5 2 9 7 10 9 9 2 9 10 10 10 10

10 votes- 15
9 votes- 12
8 votes- 2
7 votes- 3
6 votes- 1
5 votes- 3
Top 36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom 20
4 votes- 1
3 votes- 1
2 votes- 4
1 vote- 1
No votes- Everyone else



So there you have it, for the next phase of voting, we'll be using the top 36 only.


You'll vote with a O to signify you feel they should be buffed, a - to signify you believe there should be no change, and in extreme cases, a X to signify you feel the character should be nerfed. For example, let's say King Dedede wanted to vote, and selfishly, he only wants buffs for himself, because duh, he's perfect, and, he wants to nerf Kirby, his vote would look like this:

--O------- --- ------ X--------------- -

Note: You don't have to add any color, I'd like it if you do because it looks better aesthetically but if you don't want to, there's no pressure too.

Our first list will be tallied up and completed on Jan. 3 and from then on we'd continue on a weekly basis.

Also, like before, feel free to continue discussing what things you want in the coming patch/patches, that's always welcome here (and what this is about anyway) and I enjoy reading what you guys come up with, some of the ideas I've seen here are absolutely brilliant!

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I find it odd that dark pit is above pit, like how? Ik he got buffs, but still. I will post my vote either edited on this or seperatly after another post is made.

 

[Deleted member]

OOO-OOOOOO OOOO OOOOOO O-O-OO-OO----X--

Here's my vote. The buffs I want for and are pretty small tbh. I want Mac's up-B to ledge snap, and Tink's down throw needs to combo into other moves properly.

 

[Furret24]

So here's the results:

Spoiler

10 9 10 7 10 4 10 10 9 9 9 8 6 10 9 9 9 5 8 10 9 7 2 10 10 1 5 3 10 2 5 2 9 7 10 9 9 2 9 10 10 10 10

10 votes- 15
9 votes- 12
8 votes- 2
7 votes- 3
6 votes- 1
5 votes- 3
Top 36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom 20
4 votes- 1
3 votes- 1
2 votes- 4
1 vote- 1
No votes- Everyone else



So there you have it, for the next phase of voting, we'll be using the top 36 only.


You'll vote with a O to signify you feel they should be buffed, a - to signify you believe there should be no change, and in extreme cases, a X to signify you feel the character should be nerfed. For example, let's say King Dedede wanted to vote, and selfishly, he only wants buffs for himself, because duh, he's perfect, and, he wants to nerf Kirby, his vote would look like this:
Note: You don't have to add any color, I'd like it if you do because it looks better aesthetically but if you don't want to, there's no pressure too.

Our first list will be tallied up and completed on Jan. 3 and from then on we'd continue on a weekly basis.

Also, like before, feel free to continue discussing what things you want in the coming patch/patches, that's always welcome here (and what this is about anyway) and I enjoy reading what you guys come up with, some of the ideas I've seen here are absolutely brilliant!

I think some confusion stirred up here. The "Top 36" are Bottom 36. The "Bottom 20" look like Top 20. :/

 

[Browny]

They mean the top 36 voted characters to receive buffs.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So here's the results:

Spoiler

10 9 10 7 10 4 10 10 9 9 9 8 6 10 9 9 9 5 8 10 9 7 2 10 10 1 5 3 10 2 5 2 9 7 10 9 9 2 9 10 10 10 10

10 votes- 15
9 votes- 12
8 votes- 2
7 votes- 3
6 votes- 1
5 votes- 3
Top 36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom 20
4 votes- 1
3 votes- 1
2 votes- 4
1 vote- 1
No votes- Everyone else



So there you have it, for the next phase of voting, we'll be using the top 36 only.


You'll vote with a O to signify you feel they should be buffed, a - to signify you believe there should be no change, and in extreme cases, a X to signify you feel the character should be nerfed. For example, let's say King Dedede wanted to vote, and selfishly, he only wants buffs for himself, because duh, he's perfect, and, he wants to nerf Kirby, his vote would look like this:
Note: You don't have to add any color, I'd like it if you do because it looks better aesthetically but if you don't want to, there's no pressure too.

Our first list will be tallied up and completed on Jan. 3 and from then on we'd continue on a weekly basis.

Also, like before, feel free to continue discussing what things you want in the coming patch/patches, that's always welcome here (and what this is about anyway) and I enjoy reading what you guys come up with, some of the ideas I've seen here are absolutely brilliant!

I think everyone who voted pit, but not dark pit, were voting for both pits.....

 

[Zerp]

Here's my vote.
OOO-OOOOOOOOOOOOO-O-O---------------

I think some confusion stirred up here. The "Top 36" are Bottom 36. The "Bottom 20" look like Top 20. :/

I mean't top 36 as in these are the top 36 characters that should be eligible to receive buffs, not like the actual top 36 characters in the game, I probably should have worded that better, sorry. Would it be better if I changed the OP to refer to them as the bottom 36 or would that make it more confusing?

I think everyone who voted pit, but not dark pit, were voting for both pits.....

Thanks for pointing that out, I don't have anyway to tell if it's true or not unfortunately, but, if anyone who voted for Pit mean't to vote for both, I'd appreciate if they spoke up, it would make it easier to tell if the list needs a slight edit or something.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Spoiler: Buffs for Kirby

-Twinkle Popopo, the OG Puffball- O
-Less lag in general for his N-Air, excluding Landing lag (since it's already too low). It makes the attack a combo-breaker and a reliable combo move.
-F-Air now kills earlier... The vertical hitbox is also bigger.
-Cut Final Cutter startup in half.
-Make the projectile from Final Cutter travel further, so it can give Kirby a better neutral game.
-Make his Up-Air a kill move.
-The "rising" part of Final Cutter snaps to the edge.
-Stone is now invincible on startup. The attack is already predictable since Smash 64. However, it's still vulnerable to some attacks on the ground.
-"Cuttercide" gives the win to Kirby, but you can mash out of it.

MY VOTE. M stands for Mid, L for Low and B for bottom. HM is high mid and LM is low mid.
LM OLM OLM OL OM -M -B OM O B OHM -B O HM O HM - HM -HM - M O L OM O LM - LM - L OHM - M -LM O HM - HM - M - B O // May end up B, but - except for M - HM - / - HM - X Worst

The nerf for Olimar is just a little less campiness.

 

[FamilyTeam]

As for who needs buffs and who doesn't:
OOOOOOOO-OOO----OOO---OOO-O----OO---
To be honest, the buffs for some of the characters I want here are either very slight or are more like adjustments instead. Duck Hunt, Shulk, WFT, Roy and Ike are more like slight rebalances than full on buffs.

 

[Furret24]

OOO-OOOOOOOOOOOOO-OOO--OO------X----
If you're wondering what the yellow circles and X's stand for, they mean I'd like them to be buffed/nerfed, but only in minor tweaks (ex. Make Little Mac's up special sweetspot the ledge and/or slightly speed up his side special in the air).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

OOOO (slightly)OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO--OOO----

For , I'd like a buff that changed his up throw to work like Falco's as a combo throw.

 

[GreenMonkey]

New posts in this thread wasn't coming up in my notifications so I got afraid that I missed a lot. But thankfully I made it in time for Round 2

I'm glad that Zelda and Robin made it... or should I be sad since that means they desperately need buffs?

-O--OOO-OO OO-OOOO---X-OO--OOOO-----X

Phew that took quite a while to get everything color-coordinated.

 

[Wintermelon43]

New posts in this thread wasn't coming up in my notifications so I got afraid that I missed a lot. But thankfully I made it in time for Round 2

I'm glad that Zelda and Robin made it... or should I be sad since that means they desperately need buffs?

-OX-OOO-OO OO-OOOO-XXX-OO--OOOO-----X

Phew that took quite a while to get everything color-coordinated.

Lol Kirby needs no nerfs

 

[GreenMonkey]

Lol Kirby needs no nerfs

Shhh I'm just not good with the match-up.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No changes Tier:



Could be buffed:



Just nerf this ****:

 

[Deleted member]

New posts in this thread wasn't coming up in my notifications so I got afraid that I missed a lot. But thankfully I made it in time for Round 2

I'm glad that Zelda and Robin made it... or should I be sad since that means they desperately need buffs?

-OX-OOO-OO OO-OOOO-XXX-OO--OOOO-----X

Phew that took quite a while to get everything color-coordinated.

lol why do Dedede and Ganon need nerfs when they're already some of the worst characters in the game? Just because you're not good at an MU doesn't mean the character needs to be nerfed. Pit doesn't need nerfs either, he's a very balanced character. Same for Kirby. Shulk is also definitely not fine the way he is.

 

[Koiba]

Can someone please tell me why Pit is considered "lower mid" lol

 

[Deleted member]

Can someone please tell me why Pit is considered "lower mid" lol

This. He's easily top 20, probably even top 15. His matchup spread is pretty good all around as well, so I'm not seeing how he's anything but high tier.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think the problem with Pit is just that you don't have a lot of people playing him, really.
What really seems to bring Lucina down, atleast for me, is the fact that a lot of people play her in tournaments!
And they all suck!
A lot of people play Lucina, but only in small tournaments and they all are eliminated fairly quickly. It's embarassing.

 

[GreenMonkey]

lol why do Dedede and Ganon need nerfs when they're already some of the worst characters in the game? Just because you're not good at an MU doesn't mean the character needs to be nerfed. Pit doesn't need nerfs either, he's a very balanced character. Same for Kirby. Shulk is also definitely not fine the way he is.

That's true... I guess I was being overly-biased again. But I still believe Pit needs to be slightly nerfed.

 

[Koiba]

-OO--O--OOOO-O OOO-- --O--O-----------


I honestly don't know what I'm doing lmao


But the chars that I listed as needing buffs don't even need something big and fancy, just a tiny tweek

I think the problem with Pit is just that you don't have a lot of people playing him, really.
What really seems to bring Lucina down, atleast for me, is the fact that a lot of people play her in tournaments!
And they all suck!
A lot of people play Lucina, but only in small tournaments and they all are eliminated fairly quickly. It's embarassing.

I think you answered your own question


The players playing her just don't have enough fundementals; not because the char is trashier than trash


And Lucina literally got buffs every patch so far lol

That's true... I guess I was being overly-biased again. But I still believe Pit needs to be slightly nerfed.

Can you explain why? I honestly don't understand why he needs to be nerfed. He's in a great position right now

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think you answered your own question


The players playing her just don't have enough fundementals; not because the char is trashier than trash


And Lucina literally got buffs every patch so far lol

Well there wasn't a question in my post, really o3o It was just that, for me, that's the reason why people think she's bad: Because of the representation she has in competitive play.
I get the feeling some people still think Lucina plays like she used to whenthe game was released. She's better, now. Heck, she's better than she was back when I got the game in August.

 

[GreenMonkey]

-OO--O--OOOO-O OOO-- --O--O-----------


I honestly don't know what I'm doing lmao


But the chars that I listed as needing buffs don't even need something big and fancy, just a tiny tweek

I think you answered your own question


The players playing her just don't have enough fundementals; not because the char is trashier than trash


And Lucina literally got buffs every patch so far lol

Can you explain why? I honestly don't understand why he needs to be nerfed. He's in a great position right now

Nothing big, just increased start-up / end-lag on his Side-B. I feel like it's a bit too spammable right now, with its super armor and projectile-deflecting properties. Making it slightly slower would be nice and make amateur Pits much less annoying to deal with.

 

[Koiba]

Well there wasn't a question in my post, really o3o It was just that, for me, that's the reason why people think she's bad: Because of the representation she has in competitive play.
I get the feeling some people still think Lucina plays like she used to whenthe game was released. She's better, now. Heck, she's better than she was back when I got the game in August.

Oh oops sorry~ ^^

But yeah Marth and Lucina definitely gotten better with the patches and people discovering new things



Honestly I think one of the reasons people think they're bad is because "omg it nawt Brawl marf"

Nothing big, just increased start-up / end-lag on his Side-B. I feel like it's a bit too spammable right now, with its super armor and projectile-deflecting properties. Making it slightly slower would be nice and make amateur Pits much less annoying to deal with.

Tha arms are literally the laggiest things on earth; maybe one of the laggiest moves in the game actually.

Super armour only kicks in when they're dashing towards you for 15 frames, which is only useful if you try and challenge it.

Start up is totally fine, what makes up for it is endlag.


FAF is 83 if you miss, over a second to punish him

If he hits shield, the FAF is 50, almost a full second.

If he misses in the air he has 2 seconds of endlag

Hits something in the air the FAF is 58, almost a full second


And if they spam it they might as well kiss it goodbye because it's stale

The projectile reflector has such a wierd angle that it's really not worth it. And he still suffers the endlag



So just shield it

 

[GreenMonkey]

Oh oops sorry~ ^^

But yeah Marth and Lucina definitely gotten better with the patches and people discovering new things



Honestly I think one of the reasons people think they're bad is because "omg it nawt Brawl marf"


Tha arms are literally the laggiest things on earth; maybe one of the laggiest moves in the game actually.

Super armour only kicks in when they're dashing towards you for 15 frames, which is only useful if you try and challenge it.

Start up is totally fine, what makes up for it is endlag.


FAF is 83 if you miss, over a second to punish him

If he hits shield, the FAF is 50, almost a full second.

If he misses in the air he has 2 seconds of endlag

Hits something in the air the FAF is 58, almost a full second


And if they spam it they might as well kiss it goodbye because it's stale

The projectile reflector has such a wierd angle that it's really not worth it. And he still suffers the endlag



So just shield it

I didn't know it was that slow.

Sorry for not being properly informed before making suggestions.

 

[Koiba]

I didn't know it was that slow.

Sorry for not being properly informed before making suggestions.

It's fine~

We all make mistakes :3