The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[DJBor]

Agreeing with the above... is lower high tier the same as upper mid tier?
Also the decrease on SDI should be 1.5 to avoid the infinite from coming back

Voting

And I like the "nerf/buff list" at the top of the last page, so that's how I'll post my "easy balance patch". Seriously I don't mind where half the characters are. I wouldn't even change Bowser or Robin.

Spoiler: My Nerfs

Neutral air, up air, and down air receive increased endlag so that they are no longer the safest three moves in the game. Limit Break Cross Slash gets reduced BKB, so that it doesn't KO early on the sides of the stage. Forward smash KBG lowered.
Up air BKB increased, down throw KBG increased, up air gets a x1.5 SDI multiplier, up smash receives lag, cape's spin/reflect box lasts less frames and receives lag.
Gravitational pull FAF increased significantly, up air BKB decreased, jab fixed to remove the 6 point combo, Luma tilt BKB lowered.
Down tilt KBG increased, Monkey flip intangibility removed, banana toss FAF increased
Weight lowered, down air receives startup like Falco's (too much) Like Kirby's has now, nair has more BKB
Intangibility on Vanish removed, forward tilt BKB increased, nair now frame 5, and a courtesy buff- increased KBG on up air
Speed lowered (the second buff was way too much), down special has a 10 second cooldown after landing it (to remove the infinite), forward air damage decreased
Spin dash armor removed, Spring has a little bit of endlag to turn the true combo into a 50/50
Flip jump KBG/BKB and maximum distance lowered, jump height slightly lowered (pretty much a recovery nerf)
Shoryuken (both) KBG decreased, down air KBG decreased, Focus Attack damage taken multiplier increased to x0.7

Nerf list has received an update, check it out! (this nerf list was designed to equalize the top and high tiers, to achieve better overall game balance)

 

[L9999]

Up Smash hitting on ledges. If it was removed because 2 frames then remove the ingame tip that says it hits on the edge, because it doesn't.

Nair not being laughably easy to SDI. (Mash down, easy punish).

PK Trash not sending Lucas to freefall.

Uair having a hitbox that matches Lucas' big head!!!

I vote for the other PK kid .

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Lucas is fine IMO. But PK freeze shouldn't send him into freefall

 

[Arthur97]

I actually prefer Lucas to Ness. He fits my style better I guess. In any case, yeah PK Freeze (as well as Flash and Din's Fire) causing helpless seems pretty pointless.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think I've pretty much brought up all the stuff that I wanted to get off my chest during the past set of rounds, so I probably won't be posting all that often for round 4.

 

[Axel311]

Lucas is pretty good, high mid tier I think. Zoning is good, combos are great, kill throw are great, grab is not that bad anymore after the buff. Really his recovery is his only major weakness and that's OK. If they buff him I don't think he needs much, maybe make upsmash a bit less laggy. One of the more underrated characters in 4 IMO, he's super solid.

Voting

 

[DJBor]

And on top of Din's/Flash/Freeze losing helpless, how about DK's Giant Punch and Ganon's Flame Choke as well

 

[Zerp]

Today's update is probably going to be late yet again, sigh... Sorry for how frequent this stuff is.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Lucas should be buffed imo, I think he's mid tier.

I don't know what exactatly should be buffed though.

I vote for

 

[Guido65]

My buffs would make upair attached to his head and have 6 active frames like brawl(this would make it match the animation) and lower nair's SDI multiplier(from 2.0->1.3). Voting for .

 

[Zerp]

Personally I view Lucas as a Mid-Tier and I think he could use a few moderate buffs, really just frame things, and while it wouldn't be of much use still, I have to wonder why exactly PK freeze (and Din's Fire) makes you helpless, like seriously, why?
Here's Lucas's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1eIOx2vSWMVlJRowNmf91VOr7_j3TT6vqS5eg0I503D0/viewanalytics
Here's Pac-Man's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/oWj3CsCes2NZp25v1

Also, you may vote for any of these WAAAAAA to discuss tomorrow:

I'll vote for again.

 

[Arthur97]

Grab

I'll go Ike too.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I feel like is underrated by most, definitely a solid mid tier. However, he still needs a lot of buffs to be a major competitor:

+ Decrease overall lag of smashes. It's nice that they're more powerful, but if you still can't land them, it doesn't matter.
+ Fix that damn grab. Add an initial hitbox on his hand at the beginning, greatly reduce its end lag, and make the ranged hitboxes last through the ENTIRETY of frames 12-39 (instead of it being on and off).
+ For U-air, either decrease end lag so it combos easier or increase damage so it kills easier.
+ Greatly reduce SDI multiplier of D-air, make the last hit of it softly spike, and decrease end lag and landing lag.
+ Fix the glitch that causes Pac-Man to bounce extremely far if he aims his side-B at the corner incorrectly.


I guess I'll vote , too.

 

[DJBor]

Grab
But also he has trouble getting a smash out. He can really only use ghosts, the key, the occasional bair or Pac-Dash to KO. Hitbox fixes are needed on all of the ghosts. Also hydrant drop should have a knockback angle adjustment because right now it's downright terrible for anything. Make it like 40 or something. Reset neutral or KO offstage.
EDIT: forgot my tier opinion. I put him as the #1 C-tier character (that would be somewhat below our previously mentioned Lucas, and closely above the popular vote Ike.)

I like (he is my vote)
but also can we discuss sometime?
This is fun I'm sticking around

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

but also can we discuss sometime?

We're going to discuss every character at some point this round, so yes. Since it's likely that Ike will be elected for tomorrow, you can vote for Wii Fit Trainer tomorrow after discussing Ike.

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler: YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT IT IS

See this?
This is a "grab".
That's not how a grab should be.
FIX IT
FIX IT NAO.

Here's Pac-man's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QTH69lEOO7feRIlar4zgrCt4ymV2-aRlRJnhkTdQg5U/viewanalytics
Here's Ike's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/hHrxZIG4lLf8eSuy2

Also, you may vote for any of Ike's friends to discuss tomorrow:


I'll vote for , because I'm unoriginal and couldn't think of anything better to talk about, I'm a worthless copycat lol.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Welllllll I complety forgot to vote on Pac-Man, I got hyped from smash con and forgot complety. I would have voted higher mid. The main thing he needs buffed is grab. buff that and a few throws and he hbarely needs anything else. maybe some slight changes to whatever.

Ike needs buffs for sure but idk where

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is right between mid and upper mid right now. He could use some buffs, but not as many as I suggested last time:

+ Decrease startup of U-tilt and F-smash.
+ Make hit 2 of D-smash come out earlier, and decrease its end lag.
+ Make D-air have a sour spot that has similar attributes as Cloud's weak D-air (but not last as long or autocancel as easily, 'cause that's broken even for Cloud's to do).


Voting because I am also unoriginal.

 

[DJBor]

I voted upper mid, but he could be called mid as well
(I put him below Pac-Man initially, but my August update will certainly be changing that)
Ike is the perfect example of a character that needs no change to get better. Ike is the staple heavy swordfighter of Smash, but unlike other heavies, he can cross the stage easily and has a decent recovery. Pretty much the only thing stopping anyone from picking up Ike is Cloud being a superior swordsman. If my Cloud nerf (nair, uair, dair, fsmash, lbcs) happened, that would probably help Ike get competitive success more than him getting buffed.

because I'm original yee

 

[Guido65]

The only buffreally would need at this point is dair to have a lingering hitbox like brawl. Voting for.

 

[Axel311]

I don't know what they can do about Ike without changing who the character is. He's hard to balance. He's a fundamental based, high knockback low mobility character in design. Can you improve his frame data and improve him that way? Sure, but then you're going to start homogenizing Ike with the other sword characters. He's supposed to be slow but powerful. If anything is buffed, they should leave his frame data/mobility alone and give him more reward for when he does land hits. But then you have the problem of maybe making him too good at low/mid skill levels.He's super good at mid and low skill levels but falls off at top I feel because top players just space and take advantage of his low mobility too well.

 

[DJBor]

Then Ryo takes 9th at Smash Con. With .
These big tournaments are what make the biggest waves in the metagame. That nerf list will be changing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike doesn't need many changes really. Quickdraw is one of the bigger ones. In that it doesn't deal enough damage when it hits. Sometimes its punishable on hit even. Its a high risk, low reward move even if just using it for a burst of mobility. Damage on it either needs to be increased, or it needs to have a lot less start up and cooldown on the swing itself.

Aether needs a bit of fixing as there's a part when he's spinning where you can be inside of him and take no damage.

Dair should get its Brawl sour hitbox back. 2 active frames on 16 frames of animation or w/e it is, is kinda silly

Sourspot on his Usmash should be changed to be the same as the rest of the move. Its the slowest Usmash in the game, it should be rewarding to hit period. Fsmash should get its initial hitbox from Brawl back when it hit slightly behind him, the lack of that has actually cost... I think it was Ryuga a game before. Sword went right through Diddy.

Solid mid/upper mid character depending on where you draw the lines.

 

[Zerp]

Ike already is buff enough, have you guys EVER looked at him?/s

In all seriousness I think Ike could use a few moderate buffs, and I'd like him to get some but I don't really want him to get much more, I may or may not be jealous of the buffs he got.

Here's Ike's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1M17yUo0ieds7cHjYJEabnOrn4hO5EEp-fhFpe6QQNi0/viewanalytics
Here's Wii Fit Trainer's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/XDpAMA2yXZcoofQ03
Also, you may vote for any of these people who don't stretch enough:


I'll vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'd like to seriously play at some point, but she just has so many issues that keep her in lower mid tier and repel me from her moveset. I've already expressed the buffs I want for her in the last round, so I'll just quote them here:

+ Increase air speed (0.97 --> 1).
+ Decrease knockback and lower angle of first two hits of jab (KBG 100,100 --> 50,50 // angle 80/70,45/70 --> 60/50,25/50) so jab 3 buries more often.
+ Increase knockback of jab 3 (BKB 30 --> 60) so it's better when it doesn't bury.
+ Increase angle of dash attack (65 --> 75) so it can set up more stuff and kill off the top earlier.
+ Decrease overall lag of smash attacks.
--> F-smash: active frames 16-19 --> 14-17 // FAF 62 --> 58
--> U-smash: active frames 14-15,16-22 (intangible 12-15) --> 12-13,14-20 (intangible 10-13) // FAF 58 --> 56
--> D-smash: active frames 18-21 --> 15-16 // FAF 57 --> 54
+ Decrease damage of U-throw (11 --> 8) and slightly increase its knockback (KBG 80 --> 90) so it's a more reliable combo throw.
+ Decrease startup of D-air (active frames 20-21,22-24 --> 17-18,19-21 // FAF 45 --> 42), and increase size of its sweetspot.

Voting .

 

[DJBor]

Gotta make my buff list for WFT

• Do increase air speed to 1, that sounds good
  
• Change knockback angle on jab to always bury
• Lower FAF of skid animation a LOOOOOT (it's like 65 frames or something insane like that)
  
• Increase stat change factor of Deep Breathing and increase duration from 7 seconds to 12 seconds (and decrease cooldown too but I don't know the parameter for that one)
  
• Fix ALL HITBOXES. Every. Single. One. (except, of course, the ok ones, like bair, upair, dtilt, and jab)

Can we talk about dat boi tho?

 

[Zerp]

I personally view Wii Fit Trainer as a low-mid character, she's kind of good, but she could use some general quality of life buffs imo, right now she's pretty underwhelming. Maybe make her a bit quicker or something like that.

Here's Wii Fit Trainer's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1rH-NbRkJYHRLAWpMskPpIhLneVrtghSxnMeMo8mySDQ/viewanalytics
Also, since it was three way tie, I had to resort to RNG, and Roy won so...
Here's Roy's Poll: https://goo.gl/forms/1lpqdbzYco0MUpLj1


You may vote for any of these people who actually can do a half-decent Super Mario Sunshine speedrun, unlike me.


I'll vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Ryo surprised everyone by winning two games against Abadango's Mewtwo with , but he's still very underwhelming when it comes to swordfighters both in theory and in rep, making him low tier. My suggested buffs, which are short but will help him a ton:

+ Make all sourspots have some sort of use. If they comboed better or something, that would help his subpar neutral game immensely, but right now his spacing and neutral game are surprisingly awful for a swordfighter.
+ Increase all jump heights so he can more effectively juggle aerial opponents and recover.
+ Decrease lag of D-smash so it isn't so underwhelming.
+ Aerial Blazer: Either increase knockback or, more preferably, give it some super armor to make it closer to its better, grounded counterpart.


Voting .

 

[DJBor]

Ryo surprised everyone by winning two games against Dabuz's Rosalina with , but he's still very underwhelming when it comes to swordfighters both in theory and in rep, making him low tier. My suggested buffs, which are short but will help him a ton:

+ Make all sourspots have some sort of use. If they comboed better or something, that would help his subpar neutral game immensely, but right now his spacing and neutral game are surprisingly awful for a swordfighter.
+ Increase all jump heights so he can more effectively juggle aerial opponents and recover.
+ Decrease lag of D-smash so it isn't so underwhelming.
+ Aerial Blazer: Either increase knockback or, more preferably, give it some super armor to make it closer to its better, grounded counterpart.
Voting .

Yeah, pretty much. Jump height, sourspots, down smash, blazer. You got it all. My vote's the same too.
Blazer in general should get a movement range buff. It's the main thing keeping Roy down in low tier.
(edit: it was actually Abadango's Mewtwo, and then his Rosa)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Zerp I'm not sure what's wrong, but there's an issue with the polls this round that wasn't in round 3. Specifically, if you vote and then come back to the site at a later time (not immediately afterward) and open the poll, you'll have to revote. This is annoying because sometimes I just want to see the results of the poll so far, but instead I have to remember what I put in earlier first. Is this something you can fix or simply another issue with Google Forms itself?

 

[Zerp]

Zerp I'm not sure what's wrong, but there's an issue with the polls this round that wasn't in round 3. Specifically, if you vote and then come back to the site at a later time (not immediately afterward) and open the poll, you'll have to revote. This is annoying because sometimes I just want to see the results of the poll so far, but instead I have to remember what I put in earlier first. Is this something you can fix or simply another issue with Google Forms itself?

I don't know if I can fix it, I know what your talking about, but it's not happening for me this time when I voted andclick the link again, so I'm guessing it's random or related to where you open it? I'll try to find out any way to make it stop doing that, but I don't think I can, so uh, please don't expect anything.

 

[L9999]

is our sucky boy. Buff time:

· Roy has slightly increased range. (If the tips are going to be weak at least have good range to space).
· Flare Blade now has a hitbox on the sword. (Why it doesn't is ridiculous).
· DED 1 can now air stall. (Recovery mixups).
· Aerial DED3 up can spike. (Why was this removed?).
· Neutral attack has decreased start-up (frame 5 → 4). Hitbox duration is 1 frame longer. (PRESSURE).
· Side Tilt's hitbox duration is 2 frames longer. (Y not?)
· Up Tilt hitbox duration is 1 frame longer. (Its silly how the whole swing doesn't hit).
· Down Tilt’s launch angle restored to Melee’s. (Comboez).
· Down Aerial comes out faster (frame 16 → 7 (down)).

Grab
But also he has trouble getting a smash out. He can really only use ghosts, the key, the occasional bair or Pac-Dash to KO. Hitbox fixes are needed on all of the ghosts. Also hydrant drop should have a knockback angle adjustment because right now it's downright terrible for anything. Make it like 40 or something. Reset neutral or KO offstage.
This is fun I'm sticking around

Excuse my ignorance, but what does a 40 KB angle accomplish?

 

[DJBor]

Oh, I said 40... I meant 30. Something more flat, for better spacing and better KO potential.

 

[Zerp]

Roy's pretty terrible all around imo, he could us e a lot of help, luckily though, Roy has one of the best step-dashes in the game, so maybe that'll help him out. Either way though, I think he could use a lot of buffs, he really needs them, I don't even know where to begin with him, he needs help.

Here's Roy's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1eS1KSxT54F-IpadstkuBYWti_LsVt3fGLydGBD6Bk68/viewanalytics
Here's Luigi's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/GkYT792YR6NDl6Og2

You may vote for any of these people who associate Luigi with the number 2.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is still pretty viable, but over time he's slowly dropped to the fine line between mid and upper mid. He needs a few buffs, but not too many:

+ Slightly increase air speed, but not too much (0.73418 --> 0.76).
+ Increase distance and decrease end lag of Green Missile.
+ Make it easier to mash Luigi Cyclone, for recovery and gimping purposes.


Voting .

 

[L9999]

^
Down tilt restored.

I vote .

 

[DJBor]

Luigi is an example of a character that has been balanced to perfection. Not overpowered, but still very strong. Just where you want a character to be. For ranking reference I put him next to , who are also perfectly balanced imo
It's time we discuss a real debatable issue... I vote

 

[Yoshister]

Change knockback angle on jab to always bury

Just wanted to point out that burying has nothing to do with angles. Burying is an effect.

Luigi is pretty fine imo.

Wouldn't mind him getting a few QOL buffs on his tilts though.

Voting for

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Just wanted to point out that burying has nothing to do with angles. Burying is an effect.

I think what he meant was to lower the angle of the first two hits so the opponent would always be on the ground for the third hit.

 

[MarioMeteor]

All around mobility buffs would help Luigi out greatly. He wouldn't need any buffs if they hadn't nerfed him in the first place, but I digress.