The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Wintermelon43]

Guest XXXX, seven tiers, no preference for veterans, no customs for non-Mii characters because that probably will never change in tournaments and DLC characters don't have customs. Oh, and more puns would be welcome.

My revised tier list:

Kirby in Lower Mid because he at least has certain attributes that give him niche use against certain characters (like ZSS and Fox), and his existent representation proves that.

The heck did you move Kirby down for???? He was fine where he was.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

The heck did you move Kirby down for???? He was fine where he was.

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... Secondaries: ...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't keep track on the competitive scene enough to know how I should set up an updated tier list.

 

[Wintermelon43]

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Using a character doesn't make you biased

 

[Rhinomaster22]

This made be a unpopular opinion by I believe the game is in a good position thus far. We don't have a single character that's clearly out placing and outplaying all the characters in the cast like pre-patch (, , and .) . We have a top 5 of the best characters in the game (, ,, , .) that could win a tournament depending on the players. And a good chunk of the cast is viable to a degree in tournaments such as (, , , , and .) with only a few of them being too weak for compettieve play ex: Ganondorf and Jigglypuff. And thoughts on this?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Pac-Man can't kill reliably and fast, Checkmate is a kill confrim from a throw that kills reliably at 95%. And even without Checkmate, Robin has the luxury of throwing out Levin aerials and kill, Pac-Man doesn't. He can do damage all day, but he struggles super hard to kill and on top of that, his traps and item play can be screwed if the opponent grabs the fruit and knocks out the hydrant. Robin's zoning cannot get ruined this way, another thing Robin has over Pac-Man.

Okay, now I see where you're coming from.
Perhaps I've underestimate Robin's potential.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Using a character doesn't make you biased

Oh Rly?

From looking the majority of tier lists, ill call them the average, you place the characters you use gradually higher. One example is that you place Puff away from the bottom five, however the average places her in the bottom 2. Another note is Pac-man, who lacks a lot of things besides a projectile game, which is the only thing that keeps him viable minus stage control. You place him around where I placed the Pits and Robin (and I do think I overrated Robin a tad, but i dont know how Corrin was overrated lol) however the average places. No one is, frankly put not biased when making tiers. The bias might be taken in a better way. Some people place their main lower than the average to make them seem even better than they are, saying they dont main a top 5 character when they are 99% placed in their most of the time(i.e Zero and MVD) Others, which is the most common among high to low level players is that they overate their main. I place Sonic sometimes in top 5, and every tier list I have seen has various tone of biased (I.e Robin and Me, Roy and MarioMeteor, etc.)

 

[Zerp]

If you don't mind me adding onto the whole the character you main makes you biased towards them thing, I think the character you choose to play can both influence your opinions and/or also not influence you at all, depending on how well you recognize and/or suppress that bias. All people are biased deep down, whether they want to admit to it or not, it's just how we are, what actually matters though, is how much you let your own biases influence your own decision making, not whether or not you have it.

Anyways, here's the results of yesterday's poll.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1bF32ivfHPJDjJLcCnvAtMhzZdoKsNQxq0suZUwG6h48/viewanalytics

EVEN MORE PUNS!

YES.

Talk about the stages again?

I kind of forgot about the whole stage thing before I made my schedule, my bad, I'll try to find a time for that, maybe during a break day early in the next round?

Give Sakurai a birthday cake where, in the middle of it, is a realistic-looking dieing Jigglypuff and King Dedede. Maybe Sakurai will realize they need buffs then.

This is a bit cruel, but it's a good idea.

Most Creative Moveset

You mean like a contest? If so, maybe? I think that might be a little too far away from what the thread's supposed to be though, I'll try, but if that doesn't work out you should check out the make your own move thread, or try to make a more lax moveset thread if that's not your cup of tea.

Anyway for today, your still welcome to discuss whatever you want to, but I'd like to focus on how we'd hypothetically balance the Melee veterans today. These characters being the Ice Climbers, Pichu and Young Link, if you could port them straight from Melee, and tweak them upon entering the game, how'd you do it?

Also, here's the schedule for the rest of the week.

Spoiler: Schedule

Tomorrow: Second and last day of discussing how we'd hypothetically balance some cut veterans.
Day 3: Discussing who you personally think is the most "balanced" character.
Day 4: Discussing what moves you believe are over-tuned/OP.
Day 5: Discussing what moves you believe are under-tuned/UP.
Day 6: Another poll discussing opinions on your main and how they relate to other characters.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

If we were to port from Melee, they would need a nerf on Wobbling because that would still work in the Sm4sh engine, so it would be broken, as well as a moderate buff to the rest of their moveset (except their powerful and quick smashes).
However, if we were to port from Brawl instead (I know, blasphemy!), their chain grab would no longer work because of Sm4sh mechanics, so they'll need to be slightly buffed overall.


, as annoying as it may sound, would probably need certain moves made FASTER to make him worth using over . Oh, and make Agility (up-B) not damage himself, as it already moves more slowly than Quick Attack, and he needs to recover, right?


should be a mix of most of 's moveset with the altered attributes and somewhat less power of . Alternatively, he could have a moveset based around the masks he obtains in Majora's Mask, that would be cool to see!

 

[Arthur97]

I think Young Link should be revamped actually to be more of a Majora's Mask character. Not entirely sure how it should work, but it really seems like the only way to justify bringing him back.

Pichu, no, just no. Not unless every other veteran makes it back just so it can have every character.

 

[Tizio Random]

would be greatly nerfed because no chain grabs but I don't know about wobbling. I see them still being a force in the metagame, however.

would be nice in this game with some buffs on his attacks leaving him the auto-damage. A character that boosts rage by himself? It's a nice concept in this game.

should be really fast and have low damage output and not much kill power for me. Like a rushdown with some projectiles. I'm so curious to see something like this

 

[L9999]

Time for the in-depth analysis of Melee vets. I won't count , is more of a Brawl character because he is more iconic, for not saying infamous, there. I'm on the principle that veterans don't have moveset changes like .

I think this character can work, but he obviously needs buffs, and in every aspect.

Spoiler: Pichu changes

Attributes:

• Pichu’s has increased range courtesy of more cartoony animations.
• Pichu is heavier (55 → 64). Walk speed increased (1.24 → 1.3).
• Running speed increased (1.72 → 1835).
• Air speed increased (0.85 → 1).
• Pichu has a lower traction.

Pichu' range is pathetic, now it would be bad. Doesn't sound convincing, but Pichu is a tiny rat, what can you expect? Pichu's weight has increased to tolerable for a joke glass cannon, 55 is completely pathetic in a game with Rage. 64 too () but it is way more tolerable. All the mobility increases allow Pichu to move around the stage, survive, and approach (unlike) and lower traction allows more dash to shield, thing Pichu would love. All this mobility specs make up for not having wavedashing.

Specials/Ground/Aerials:

• Thunder Jolt, Skull Bash and Agility no longer do self damage.
• Thunder now only does self damage if the lightning hits Pichu.
• Thunder’s multihits connect better.
• Jab, Side Tilt down, and Down Tilt can trip.
• Side Smash connects better.
• All aerials have landing lag equal to Pichu’s L-cancelled aerials in Melee.
• Foward Aerial is much harder to SDI. (think )
• New Back Aerial. Pichu now stretches outwards and kicks the opponent. ( hi)
• Down Aerial is harder to SDI and has a meteor smash at the end. (think and)

While self damage is Pichu's thing, being damaged by his utility specials is just silly. Better multihits and tripping are added to adapt to the new environment. His electric attacks are all harder to SDI to compensate Pichu damages himself with them. Pichu deserves a better Bair than the crappy Melee one. Melee landing lag to make up for lack of range and poor survivability.

Grab game:

• Grab range increased in all grabs.
• Foward Throw now sends into semi-spike angle.
• Pichu now has Back Throw.
• Up Throw no longer chaingrabs because mechanics.

Pichu's grab range is PATHETIC. It NEEDS buffs. The caps show how bad it is. Foward Throw is for disadvantaging the opponent to make up it damages Pichu. Back Throw is the reward for Pichu gathering up rage (hi).

Off topic but the first time I ever played Melee I defeated my rival with Pichu, and I cannot believe I won with a character so trash!

is so . I'm trying as hard as I can to make him different. (and because I haven't played Majora's to know).

Spoiler: Young Link changes

• Hookshot still latching to walls. Dragon Lunge does so why not YL's Hookshot?
• New rapid jab finisher.
• Foward Smash. He has to be different in something, right?
  
• Bombs explosion no longer damage YL. (like the other Links) (YL can still hit himself with Spin Attack).
• Dash Attack now stronger.
• Bigger Dair sweetspot.
• Spin Attack travelling more distance to compensate different hookshot and weight.
• Fair being less laggy in all aspects.
• Uair/Dair/Fair have L-Cancel landing lag.
• Up Smash first hits now have horizontal hitboxes on the ground.

I guess YL would be decent as he is in Smash 4 despite being gimp food and losing wavedashing. Has projectiles, mobility and combos. But I rather apply some of this changes to (even to ) because invalidates 's existence. "He can have Majora's Mask moveset" My gripe with Young Link is that he IS Link, don't you dare come at me with technicalities. Here is the situations. 3 Links, 2 kid Links, 3 characters with the same basic gameplan. "What about ? At least they are different characters. Off-topic, but Zelda has all the characters they need. is enough really, are in for gimmicks. Who is left in Zelda games that is regular and iconic? *cricricri*

For the Brawl round I will have my word on IC (my favorite character to bully lightweight players), Solid Hitboxes, Vamo a Calmarno, Ivytrash and Wolf.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So now it's Melee 's day? (ba-dum-tss!)

Anyway, my post is kinda lengthy, so I'll put it in spoiler brackets.

Spoiler

Ice Climbers: The Ice Climbers have historically relied on overpowered grab shenanigans for competitive play. This aspect will be completely destroyed just by moving to ssb4. I'm not gonna think about this too much, but here are some general buffs they could get to balance this:

• Instead of wobbling, or chain grabs, the Ice Climbers should just have some desynced grab combos. For example, you could do a combo involving Popo's Down Throw, Nana's Forward Aerial, then Popo's Up Aerial. The Ice Climbers could have a bunch of different little combos like that that worked at different percentages for damage racking, and maybe even killing. This way getting grabbed by an Ice Climber will hurt, but won't mean 0-death.
• When the second Ice Climber dies, Belay should have the first Ice Climber throw the rope anyway, functioning as a tether grab. It shouldn't be as good of a recovery as with both Ice Climbers, but more useful than hopping two millimeters.

Young Link: Young Link is sadly not missed, with most being satisfied with Toon Link as "replacement". These qualities should make him more unique, and give him a playstyle between power and projectile spacer . (I was thinking of him being combo based, though Tizio Random's idea of him being rush down would work well to.

• Keep Young Link's infinite jab, and wall tether abilities from Melee. (for uniqueness.)
• Young Link's dash attack should be the Helm Splitter technique from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. This attack could meteor smash opponents, and would allow him to jump off ledges (to make use of the meteor smash) during the attack. It should also probably do a lot of shield damage as well.
• In Melee, Young Link had trouble killing due to multi-hit moves not linking up well (also the Up Smash seemed to be a damage racking move rather than a KOing move.) Since I got rid of one of his better KO moves, He'll need a new one. Giving Young Link Link's Forward Smash from ssb64 would be a great way to do this, since it would get rid of the requirement of linking up the two hits, and just have a more powerful one hit attack.
• Young Link's Fire Bow should put flames on the ground for a few seconds for stage control.

Pichu: The top five most hated characters in the Super Smash Bros. series seems to be the Pokémon Trainer (with most being indifferent), Young Link, Lucina, Dark Pit, and Pichu. With Pichu being in first, he will need many changes to become tolerable among fans. Here is a list of generalized changes that could be made:

• All tail attacks should have elastic limb animations (not quite Diddy Kong tier, but close.), and all head attacks should have hitboxes on the ears for bearable range.
• Other bodily attacks should be other moves (such as Signal Beam) for more range.
• Electric Attacks should be confined to smash attacks, and other powerful attacks in exchange for taking more damage for using them, and having them being more powerful in general.
• Agility, and Skull Bash should no longer be electric attacks.
• Thunder Jolt should be repaced with something more useful for a self-damaging move. I went with Volt Switch, but this could be anything. For Volt Switch, Pichu should fire a ball of electricity as big as himself forward. If it hits, Pichu will switch places with its opponent.

On the subject of Young Link's validity as a character, (I'm getting flashbacks to the character discussion thread. Help.) while Toon Link did replace and expand on Young Link's playstyle from Melee, to me, he still can't replace the actual character of Young Link. To be honest, if Young Link was supposed to be a continuation of the concept, I would have preferred Young Link instead of the new character. Don't get me wrong, I love Toon Link, as I love all smash characters, but...Well I guess that's just it. I hate it when characters are removed from the Super Smash Bros. series, and I hope they will all return in the next game. Here's hoping I guess. As for using a Majora's Mask moveset, that won't work until switching is possible again.

EDIT: L9999 Pichu will not take damage from Thunder unless the lightning hits him even in Melee.

 

[Arthur97]

So, uh, when does Brawl day start?

 

[Zerp]

Sorry guys, the Brawl veteran day was supposed to start yesterday at the normal time, but I had a internet outage which made that kind of impossible (and destroyed my Pichu write-up apparently... great). Ugh. Well, since the schedule's so messed up already, I don't really know how to end the day anymore, would you guys rather I just start the day right now or wait until the normal time to update? Again, sorry.

Edit: Eh, since noone's responding, I think I'll just update it at the normal time today.

 

[Zerp]

Is it just me or has the whole site been really quiet today?

Anyways, about Pichu, I think he could be the perfect character to introduce Rage as a concept to beginners, along with some slight mobility buffs, some damage buffs and some hitbox tweaks, I'd give him something like Lucario's aura effect to enhance his rage. It always struck me as odd that Lucario's the only character that really plays off of the mechanic and I think Pichu would be a good fit for the mechanic.

I'd make Young Link a weird cross breed of Link and Tink, just with fire arrows/ice arrows, because magic's cool. After that, give him some moderate buffs, less than I'd give Tink, but more than I'd give Link.

Fun fact: Popo means Grandma in Chinese and Nana means Grandma in Spanish. Strange, ain't it?
Anyway, for the Icies, unpopular opinion here, but I'd give them a special modifier that lets them and only them chain-grab, now, I'm almost certain that isn't how they were intended to play, but it would feel wrong having the icies not be grab-centric, ya know? I'd give them a limit on how much grabbing they can do continuously though, maybe only let them chain up 30-40 damage per chain grabbing session + have a cooldown after that?


Anyway, for today, we're discussing the Brawl Veterans (,,( & )) and other stuff you want to, but I'd appreciate it if the vets are mentioned at least a bit.

Here's the schedule for the rest of the week:

Spoiler: Schedule

Tomorrow: Discussing who you personally think is the most "balanced" character.
Day 3: Discussing what moves you believe are over-tuned/OP.
Day 4: Discussing what moves you believe are under-tuned/UP.
Day 5: Another poll discussing opinions on your main and how they relate to other characters.

Also, again, I'm really sorry about yesterday, I mean, yeah, it was unavoidable, but I still feel bad about it. Sorry.

Edit: Yeah, that's a good point L1N3R1D3R, added it. Thanks.

 

[Arthur97]

I've noticed a lack of activity lately as well...weird.

Anyway, while I generally lack competitive expertise, I imagine that Wolf would not need much in 4. Without chain grabbing, he is minus one of his biggest weaknesses. I don't know if he would get a recovery buff or not, but it would stand to reason that he would be able to act out of flash.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Zerp Can you put in your post who the Brawl veterans are so people who are unaware don't have to look back to find out?


For , I would like to see improvements on his recovery for the most part. I think the rest of his design would work well, but since Sm4sh is more than ever before based on recovery, he should at least have side B not put him into free fall, like .


I have a crazy idea for that may be too ambitious, but would be amazing to see:
~ Firstly, remove the whole "getting tired" thing. I want there to be the option of maining all three Pokemon or just one, I don't want to be forced to use ones I don't like. Along with this, the resistance aspect is also pretty weird and should be removed.
~ Secondly, decrease lag of transformation, and change it into a -- cycle with up and down taunts. This would mean that Squirtle and Ivysaur need down B's:
--> Bubble from PM.
--> Stun Spore from PM, though slightly nerfed.
~ Thirdly, Ivysaur's design doesn't really work with the Sm4sh system, so most notably his neutral and up B's should be changed:
--> Neutral B: Acts like a set-length Bullet Seed that can combo. Can be charged, charging increases distance and damage.
--> Up B: Similar to his down-air, the recoil would send him high, but with little horizontal momentum. He would be given a Z-air and thus a tether recovery as well.
Also, his F-air should aim where you aim the control stick after you press A, if that's not already the case.
~ I may have forgotten some of their crazier (or sillier) moves, but I didn't play them much, especially .


For , just nerf U-tilt and buff side-B. That would balance all his moves and make him an interesting, but hopefully not overwhelming, character. Oh, and a distance buff for up-B would be nice, too.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Fun fact: Popo means Grandma in Chinese and Nana means Grandma in Spanish. Strange, ain't it?

Acording to SmashWiki, Popo also means butt in Germany, and is considered to be an insult. (Which is why he is called Pépé there)
Also, the title still says it's Melee vet day.

Zerp Can you put in your post who the Brawl veterans are so people who are unaware don't have to look back to find out?

(when you take too long writing your post and someone beats you to the punch)

My thoughts on the Brawl veterans are in a spoiler box because I don't want to spoil the fact that Snake is in the game...Dang it! (No spoilers, just long post)

Spoiler

Pokémon Trainer: Impossible for this game. Next game though, they could put him back in should players want to switch between his Pokémon again. Just keep type effectiveness, and stamina out of the mix. (Switching would have to use the taunt buttons, people would be mad if thier Down Specials were taken away again.)

Squirtle: Honestly, Squirtle's port from Brawl to 3Ds/Wii U would already take away most of his weakness. His air release animation would be fixed, and the stamina mechanic would be gone. There are only two things I see Squirtle needing:

• Strengthen Squirtle's Smash attacks.
  
• I think Squirtle's new Down Special should be Water Pulse. Squirtle would clap his hands to summon a burst of water outward. It would act like Mario's Cape, except on all sides.

Ivysaur: Ivysaur had quite a few problems in Brawl. In fact, to quote SmashWiki, "Competitive players argue that if Ivysaur was included a standalone fighter, due to its lack of prominent strengths and debilitating flaws, it would be a contender for the worst character in the game, competing with bottom-tier characters such as Jigglypuff, Zelda, and Ganondorf." Ivysaaur needs a lot of buffs to be a good fighter in this game even without type effectiveness, stamina, or ledge steals.

• Ivysaur seems to be Little Mac, without the power on the ground. This needs to change. First, its aerials: Ivysaur should extend its vines out during its Neutral Aerial to increase range, and potentially have the hits link up better. Ivysaur's Back Aerial should be much faster, allowing it to be like Young Link's Back Aerial on steroids. It would allow you to throw out dozens of hitboxes quickly, and they would cover a good radius. The Up and Down Aerials need to be strengthened as well to make them a true KO move.
• Now for the ground attacks: Ivysaur's Neutral Attack infinite should have a finisher. Ivysaur's Up Tilt should be a little faster to provide an anti-air option. Ivysaur's Up Smash needs better scooping hitboxes, its Side Smash needs to be quicker, and it's Down Smash needs to be stronger.
• Ivysaur's Bullet Seed needs to be an all-or-nothing attack, it is hard to hit, but if it hits, opponents should not be able to SDI out of it. If it doesn't hit, punish.
• Ivysaur's Razor Leaf should be much faster.
• Many people think that Ivysaur's Up Special would have been changed if he was put in the game because of Olimar and Zero Suit Samus, but these were changed because a tether with three Pikmin at maximum wouldn't work at all, and having three tethers is kinda ridiculous. I really don't think Ivysaur has to loose Vine Whip, but if you must change it, Petal Blizzard would work well instead.
• As for a new Down Special, take your pick between Stun Spore, Poison Powder, and Sleep Powder, and make the rest customs (I mean you could do Solar Beam but that's less unique). Ivysaur would summon a cloud of the stuff around him, and it would stay there for a while. This would add a lot of stage control options for him, and would probably be a direct counter to Little Mac because he would probably have a lot of trouble getting around the gas. Stun Spore would stun opponents like Zero Suit Samus's Paralyzer, Poison Powder would inflict damage over time like Olimar's Pikmin Toss, and Sleep Powder would put enemies to sleep, but you probably already figured this out.

Wolf: I think Wolf's transition to the physics of Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U would pretty much balance him out, and make him one of the best characters in the game, due to all of his weaknesses having to do with things that cannot be done in ssb4. Make Wolf Flash not render him helpless, and he is pretty much good to go.

Snake: Snake would be nerfed by the removal of momentum canceling, but I don't know by how much...Oh well, I don't see it being too much of a problem, but he may just need some slight buffs here and there.

EDIT: Oh! I forgot to mention earlier, but I would like for SoPo's Belay to also grab opponents out of the air when he is on the ground, and act as a normal grab from there.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll just leave the quote below behind, in regards to Wolf.

Now Wolf is someone whom I wanted to bring up myself. First up would be attribute changes...

• Increase Wolf's air speed to 1.24, rivaling Roy.
• Increase Wolf's walk speed to 1.43, rivaling Greninja, while still walking slower than Fox.
• Increase Wolf's run speed to 1.63, rivaling Duck Hunt, while still running slower than Rosalina.
• Increase Wolf's falling speed to 2, making him the second fastest faller.
• Increase Wolf's gravity to 0.15, being tied with Sheik.
• Wolf's ground jumps would still be as high as Sonic's ground jumps.
• Wolf's weight would stay at 102, being tied with Shulk and Mega Man.
• Wolf's air acceleration would be set at 0.03.

Wolf would also maintain his special moves, but in terms of Wolf Flash, it would no longer leave him helpless. As for custom variants...

• Blaster
  • Paralyzing Blaster: Fires a short-ranged blast that can't be reflected or absorbed. The blast paralyzes anyone who's hit, and the bayonet can still deal damage before the blast is fired.
  • Piercing Blaster: Fires a laser that can pass through multiple targets, but it deals less damage and knockback than the standard Blaster. The bayonet's damage output is unaffected.
• Wolf Flash
  • Wolf Burst: The dash does not deal any damage, but an explosion will be made after the move ends, dealing damage to those who are hit. Deals more damage and knockback, but lacks the meteor smash properties that the standard Wolf Flash has. Additionally, Wolf only travels 3/4 the distance of the standard Wolf Flash, and he loses all horizontal momentum after using the move as well, which hinders its recovery potential.
  • Wolf Phase: Travels 25% farther than the standard Wolf Flash, but it doesn't deal any damage. Wolf won't take any damage while dashing, and he maintains some horizontal momentum after using the move, making it more effective for recovery than the other Wolf Flash variations.
• Fire Wolf
  • Blazing Wolf: Gives Wolf's kicks fire effects, enabling him to deal more damage than normal, with the final kick delivering high knockback if it connects. However, the move doesn't travel as far as the standard Fire Wolf (0.8x), and it halts Wolf's horizontal momentum upon ending.
  • Fast Fire Wolf: Executes quicker and travels farther (1.1x) than the standard Fire Wolf, but the kicks deal much less damage and knockback than normal. Wolf maintains some of his horizontal momentum after using the move, but he'll still enter a helpless state.
• Reflector
  • Absorbing Reflector: Absorbs projectiles instead of reflecting them. Wolf heals 50% of the damage that he would've taken from the projectiles, and it can't deal any damage. Only works on absorbable projectiles, however.
  • Amplifying Reflector: Reflected projectiles deal more damage than the standard Reflector (2.34x), but their initial speed boost is less powerful (1.08x). The startup lag and ending lag are also increased, and the reflector isn't able to deal any direct damage.

 

[L9999]

Alright, time to talk about my Brawl main,.

Spoiler: Ice Climber changes

By mechanics IC's chaingrabs will not work. I think the only trick that would work would be D-Throw -> Footstool -> Ice Block jab lock -> D-Throw. And this is harder to do than D-Throw -> Back-Throw -> repeat. And being real, Ice Climbers are not much without chaingrab. They can damage a lot with grab+charged Smash attack but their overall kill power is mediocre, its mild rage Lucina aerials kill power (not great), their mobility is kinda trash and their range is bad. And seeing how there is a lot of Luma counterplay, Nana would be gimp food in Smash 4. So, buffs to standout.

Attributes: Air speed improved (0.77 → 0.80).
Slightly better for better maneuvering, but still crappy as it was intended.

Special:

• Squall Hammer has improved vertical distance with less mashing.
• Blizzard does more shield damage and shieldstabs.

Side B buffs for avoiding Up B. Blizzard is so laggy, it needs something more.

Attacks:

• Up Tilt now connects all hits courtesy of hitstun cancelling.
• Down Tilt pops up opponents into the air, allowing aerial followups.
• Smash Attacks are more powerful.
• Down Aerial is no longer is a stall-then-fall and has a spike on start-up.

Up Tilt adjusting to Smash 4 SDI mechanics. Non-charged Smash attack aren't that strong. It might make grab+charge attack stronger, but with that mobility and approach options you shouldn't get grabbed much. Dair sucks, making it a more conventional would make it better.

They don't need throw changes because grab+Smash attack+pummels+throw is a ton of damage.

Nerf those hitboxes to match the frikin character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpn8X9uhKIM

Direct port. I don't think he will need changes beside no helpless Side B.

What Puppy says.

 

[Zerp]

Acording to SmashWiki, Popo also means butt in Germany, and is considered to be an insult. (Which is why he is called Pépé there)

That's pretty funny that they changed his name like that over here, I actually never knew that.

Also, the title still says it's Melee vet day.

Wow, somehow I saw this a day ago, and didn't register what you were actually saying until like 12 hours (morning for me) later, so it said Melee Vet Day for all that time lol, isn't that just sad?


Anyways, about , probably overthinking it a little, but I'd actually slightly nerf him instead of buffing or leaving him unchanged, he wasn't problematic in Brawl but most of his weaknesses won't carry over and I think he might actually end up too strong if left unchecked. I'm probably overthinking it though.

I'd personally want to get rid of 's mechanic where Pokemon stamina lowers over time, it just gets in the way of people who actually want to play any of those characters. Not even sure why it was ever added.
I wouldn't change or much, if at all.

For though, I'd like a few small buffs on LITERALLY EVERYTHING. Really though, he/she's so bad that I don't even know what to do with them, so uh, give them giant buffs, I guess?

Also, for today, we're discussing whoever you think is the most balanced character and any other balance related things you want to. I'd say I'm expecting everyone to say if this was a few months ago but I'm not sure if that's an outdated consensus or not.

Spoiler: Schedule

Tomorrow: Discussing what moves you believe are over-tuned/OP.
Day 4: Discussing what moves you believe are under-tuned/UP.
Day 5: Another poll discussing opinions on your main and how they relate to other characters.

 

[Arthur97]

Mario is a pretty solid choice for all levels of play, unlike Ganondorf who is best suited for casual, or Sheik who works best in competitive; so in that sense, he is probably the best. However, he does seem to be doing rather well this go around, so I don't know if that dilutes his balance towards the strong side.

 

[L9999]

I guess . His stuff does it job but has nothing particularly imposing.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

As for balance, I like how are at the moment. They have all proven to be extremely viable without being overwhelming, making them fun to watch and rewarding to root for.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Mario is pretty much the all-around guy, as his pros and cons are not too significant when compared to most other fighters. And while Mario's recovery may not be that great with Super Jump Punch's limited travel distance, it could've been a lot worse if you look at Dr. Mario's situation.

On a side note, Mario is one of the few fighters where I did not make any attribute changes to.

 

[Tizio Random]

As for balance, I like how are at the moment. They have all proven to be extremely viable without being overwhelming, making them fun to watch and rewarding to root for.

This is exactly what I think. These characters are all A/A- Tier in my book (aside from Pit that is B+ but the point still remains).

 

[Zerp]

Personally I would have gone with , since he's viable, pretty darn good and he isn't really overpowering either, but he does also have some extremely polarizing match-ups in his favor (He shreds floaties) and I'm not sure if I can call that aspect of him balanced, haha. I think I'll go with instead.

Anyways, today's the day where we'll be discussing what moves think are over-tuned or OP in the game, and whatever other balance related thingies you want to discuss.

INB4 literally every post mentions Limit Break Cross-Slash.

Spoiler: Schedule

Tomorrow: Discussing what moves you believe are under-tuned/UP.
Day 4: Another poll discussing opinions on your main and how they relate to other characters.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Moves that deserve nerfs at the moment:

Limit Cross Slash needs to be more laggy to make up for its insane multihits and kill power. U-air could also use a nerf.
D-tilt should have more knockback growth so it can only combo into aerials from 100% upward. B-air could also use more end lag or less knockback, but isn't quite as big of a problem.
I could see cargo U-throw being nerfed (decrease damage to 8.5% and increase knockback and hitstun to compensate, so he doesn't do quite as much damage with his grab combos), but he would get plenty of buffs in other areas to compensate.
U-air is really quick, does tons of damage, combos into itself, and kills. Nerf damage of hit 2 and we'll be good.
U-smash could handle being laggier or weaker. Have you seen how ridiculous it is? EDIT: Also, increase knockback of U-tilt and decrease damage of U-air, and make last hit of D-air hit earlier with no change in FAF (so it now connects reliably but has more end lag to compensate).
F-air should either have more startup or less knockback. Right now it's both a combo and kill move that does big damage.
B-throw is the best kill throw and yet hasn't been nerfed while others have. He would also get buffs to compensate this nerf.
U-air needs to have less KBG on Luma. Right now it's a move that can kill stupid early or connect to Rosa for huge damage on a frame 3 move. Also, Gravitational Pull should have slightly less range and more lag to make gimping a bit riskier.
True Shoryuken could use for a bit less power, but a height increase to compensate.
Vanish should have much more landing lag. It's already amazing for recovering and baiting air dodges, why does it need such little landing lag to make it even harder to punish? Bouncing Fish could also be a bit laggier.
Flip Kick should be a bit less powerful and travel a bit more slowly, as right now it greatly helps recovery and is a really quick and powerful finisher.

 

[Wintermelon43]

There are no moves in this game that are OP. I suppose a few could be nerfed if you give some of the character's other moves buffs to make them less focused on that one move, but we can do without any nerfs.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Moves that are deserving of nerfs at the moment:
Limit Cross Slash needs to be more laggy to make up for its insane multihits and kill power. U-air could also use a nerf.
D-tilt should have more knockback growth so it can only combo into aerials from 100% upward. B-air could also use more end lag or less knockback, but isn't quite as big of a problem.
I could see cargo U-throw being nerfed, but he would get plenty of buffs in other areas to compensate.
U-air is really quick, does tons of damage, combos into itself, and kills. Nerf damage of hit 2 and we'll be good.
U-smash could handle being laggier or weaker. Have you seen how ridiculous it is?
F-air should either have more startup or less knockback. Right now it's both a combo and kill move that does big damage.
B-throw is the best kill throw and yet hasn't been nerfed while others have. He would also get buffs to compensate this nerf.
U-air needs to have less KBG on Luma. Right now it's a move that can kill stupid early or connect to Rosa for huge damage on a frame 3 move. Also, Gravitational Pull should have slightly less range and more lag to make gimping a bit riskier.
True Shoryuken could use for a bit less power, but a height increase to compensate.
Vanish should have much more landing lag. It's already amazing for recovering and baiting air dodges, why does it need such little landing lag to make it even harder to punish? Bouncing Fish could also be a bit laggier.
Flip Kick should be a bit less powerful and travel a bit more slowly, as right now it greatly helps recovery and is a really quick and powerful finisher.

You always have opinions really close to me. This is pretty much what I would say, maybe not the DK cargo throw as much.
I would also argue Cloud's upair is also a little too good, and I believe Mario's dthrow needs an ever so slight tweak to make it less easy to rack up 40+ damage on a single easy bake throw combo. Other than this list we're in a good spot move wise

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

You always have opinions really close to me. This is pretty much what I would say, maybe not the DK cargo throw as much.
I would also argue Cloud's upair is also a little too good, and I believe Mario's dthrow needs an ever so slight tweak to make it less easy to rack up 40+ damage on a single easy bake throw combo. Other than this list we're in a good spot move wise

For DK, I was just thinking a damage decrease to 8.5% with a knockback and hitstun buff to compensate. I'm okay with the followups it has, I just worry about a combo throw doing 10%, as the only other combo throw that does that much damage is R.O.B.'s D-throw, which isn't nearly as consistent with followups. He would get tons of buffs to other moves to compensate if this happened!

I don't think Mario's D-throw is the problem, it's U-tilt and U-air that are worse offenders. If I were to nerf Mario in this way, I would increase knockback of U-tilt and decrease damage of U-air. I would also alter D-air by making the last hit come out earlier but not changing the FAF at all, meaning that all the hits would connect reliably but the end lag would increase to compensate.

 

[Deleted member]

Moves that deserve nerfs at the moment:

Limit Cross Slash needs to be more laggy to make up for its insane multihits and kill power. U-air could also use a nerf.
D-tilt should have more knockback growth so it can only combo into aerials from 100% upward. B-air could also use more end lag or less knockback, but isn't quite as big of a problem.
I could see cargo U-throw being nerfed (decrease damage to 8.5% and increase knockback to compensate, so he doesn't do quite as much damage with his grab combos), but he would get plenty of buffs in other areas to compensate.
U-air is really quick, does tons of damage, combos into itself, and kills. Nerf damage of hit 2 and we'll be good.
U-smash could handle being laggier or weaker. Have you seen how ridiculous it is? EDIT: Also, increase knockback of U-tilt and decrease damage of U-air, and make last hit of D-air hit earlier with no change in FAF (so it now connects reliably but has more end lag to compensate).
F-air should either have more startup or less knockback. Right now it's both a combo and kill move that does big damage.
B-throw is the best kill throw and yet hasn't been nerfed while others have. He would also get buffs to compensate this nerf.
U-air needs to have less KBG on Luma. Right now it's a move that can kill stupid early or connect to Rosa for huge damage on a frame 3 move. Also, Gravitational Pull should have slightly less range and more lag to make gimping a bit riskier.
True Shoryuken could use for a bit less power, but a height increase to compensate.
Vanish should have much more landing lag. It's already amazing for recovering and baiting air dodges, why does it need such little landing lag to make it even harder to punish? Bouncing Fish could also be a bit laggier.
Flip Kick should be a bit less powerful and travel a bit more slowly, as right now it greatly helps recovery and is a really quick and powerful finisher.

literally none of these moves need nerfs besides LCS and Rosaluma uair.

why would you want to nerf Diddy's bair? he already has ass air speed and his fair is strictly better for combos.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

why would you want to nerf Diddy's bair? he already has *** air speed and his fair is strictly better for combos.

It has such low end lag that it can combo into itself or last shorter than an air dodge and then punish, which for a kill move is kinda broken.

 

[Axel311]

- Dtilt is insane. A what, frame 4 move that combos into itself and pretty much everything else and also is a kill confirm? Increase KBG so it can combo at low and mid percents but not combo into smashes at kill percents. Considering Diddy's already ridiculous banana kill confirms, taking this one away seems reasonable as a nerf to who most top players seem to consider the best character in smash 4.

- Limit CS obviously. It at the minimum needs more end lag so it is punishable but also reducing the KB so it kills ~10% later would be very reasonable as well. His upair also needs more lag and to a lesser extent, nair. The frame data to disjoint size ratio is all out of wack in comparison with the rest of the cast.

-Upsmash. It needs some endlag so it's not so unpunishable. Or it needs a substantial KB reduction. It's just too good as is. And I even play mario so no bias.

- Upair needs some additional tweaks against floaties. The fact that MK gets unDIable, inescapable zero to deaths from the ground level of the stage is not ok. We all saw what Abadango did to Samsamora yesterday in grand finals of clutch city. I'd be fine with giving MK a buff in other areas as he's not broken by any means against most of the cast. But it's just way too cheesy and guaranteed against floaties. There needs to be some kind of counterplay.

-Upair needs less KBG on luma. People dying at 20% off the top from a single upair is not ok. Same goes for dair.


There's a few other moves I thought about mentioning but I think these are the prime offenders.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

How often can Rosalina KO fighters at 20% damage? It seems like a rare incident that can only happen when unlikely conditions are met.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

The thought of giving Mario a slower USmash than Doc leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I personally don't think the move is that much of an issue, but if others have a big problem with it, then I would suggest reducing the damage from 14 to 12.5.

Anyway, personally I never hear anyone bring this up but Dragon Lunge is a little bonkers IMO.
Overall, I'm okay with everything this move can do except for the that fact that the forward & back kicks can kill at around 100% center stage. Considering that instant pin can come out as early as frame 4, along side that it is very difficult (sometimes impossible with some characters) to punish. I feel it's a bit too safe with that kind of power.

So in my opinion, I would probably nerf the KBG on all versions of the kicks down to 78.

 

[Axel311]

How often can Rosalina KO fighters at 20% damage? It seems like a rare incident that can only happen when unlikely conditions are met.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN-oWMdy2I0

Dying at low percents is somewhat rare against Rosa but the frequency is not relevant. It does happen from time to time and is broken nonetheless. I really don't have huge beef with it upair killing at mid percents but when it happens at low percents it's just cheese.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN-oWMdy2I0

Dying at low percents is somewhat rare against Rosa but the frequency is not relevant. It does happen from time to time and is broken nonetheless. I really don't have huge beef with it upair killing at mid percents but when it happens at low percents it's just cheese.

So you're basically suggesting that anything that can KO fighters below 50% damage need to be nerfed? This sounds more like a rage mechanic issue if anything, and you have no one to blame but yourself if you mess up your approaches. That Sheik player should've known better than to leave the Luma alone, because without the Luma, there's no way that Rosalina could've made that quick KO.

 

[Axel311]

So you're basically suggesting that anything that can KO fighters below 50% damage need to be nerfed? This sounds more like a rage mechanic issue if anything, and you have no one to blame but yourself if you mess up your approaches. That Sheik player should've known better than to leave the Luma alone, because without the Luma, there's no way that Rosalina could've made that quick KO.

No, that's not what I said at all. Obviously you main Rosa and don't want your character nerfed which I do understand but if you're trying to argue that it's OK for Rosa to kill Sheik there at 4% from one upair you're not gonna get many that agree with you.