The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

No, that's not what I said at all. Obviously you main Rosa and don't want your character nerfed which I do understand but if you're trying to argue that it's OK for Rosa to kill Sheik there at 4% from one upair you're not gonna get many that agree with you.

I guess I just don't get why there are competitive players who are forgetting the number 1 rule for fighting against Rosalina; contain the Luma.

On a side note, I think I recalled reading something about Peach KOing Rosalina at low damage with the Peach Parasol. I don't remember where that information is located though, or if it's still a thing.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

So you're basically suggesting that anything that can KO fighters below 50% damage need to be nerfed? This sounds more like a rage mechanic issue if anything, and you have no one to blame but yourself if you mess up your approaches. That Sheik player should've known better than to leave the Luma alone, because without the Luma, there's no way that Rosalina could've made that quick KO.

Except that Luma U-air is as quick as FRAME THREE and lasts NINE FRAMES, which isn't the case for any other move that kills that early.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Except that Luma U-air is as quick as FRAME THREE and lasts NINE FRAMES, which isn't the case for any other move that kills that early.

Whatever the story is, I really don't see that scenario all that much. And since I don't play competitively, I rarely see the rage mechanic in action anyway.

 

[L9999]

Moves that deserve nerfs at the moment:

Limit Cross Slash needs to be more laggy to make up for its insane multihits and kill power. U-air could also use a nerf.
D-tilt should have more knockback growth so it can only combo into aerials from 100% upward. B-air could also use more end lag or less knockback, but isn't quite as big of a problem.
I could see cargo U-throw being nerfed (decrease damage to 8.5% and increase knockback to compensate, so he doesn't do quite as much damage with his grab combos), but he would get plenty of buffs in other areas to compensate.
U-air is really quick, does tons of damage, combos into itself, and kills. Nerf damage of hit 2 and we'll be good.
U-smash could handle being laggier or weaker. Have you seen how ridiculous it is? EDIT: Also, increase knockback of U-tilt and decrease damage of U-air, and make last hit of D-air hit earlier with no change in FAF (so it now connects reliably but has more end lag to compensate).
F-air should either have more startup or less knockback. Right now it's both a combo and kill move that does big damage.
B-throw is the best kill throw and yet hasn't been nerfed while others have. He would also get buffs to compensate this nerf.
U-air needs to have less KBG on Luma. Right now it's a move that can kill stupid early or connect to Rosa for huge damage on a frame 3 move. Also, Gravitational Pull should have slightly less range and more lag to make gimping a bit riskier.
True Shoryuken could use for a bit less power, but a height increase to compensate.
Vanish should have much more landing lag. It's already amazing for recovering and baiting air dodges, why does it need such little landing lag to make it even harder to punish? Bouncing Fish could also be a bit laggier.
Flip Kick should be a bit less powerful and travel a bit more slowly, as right now it greatly helps recovery and is a really quick and powerful finisher.

Uair was nerfed already. won't give an opinion. I say this over and over, but NEEDS the Hoo-hah. He is a walking sandbag with terrible landing options and ledge options that are exploitable by 3 year olds. are glass cannons, they have crazy strong moves to make up they are light as a feather. Up Smash is only good because conditioning and pressure. Don't go to the edge. Problem solved. More height for Shoryuken? That's crazy, it already has a hitbox that sharks the edge and it moves super fast. The only one who can realistically stop him and get away with it is .was nerfed already. is a mess right now so I won't say something.

- Upair needs some additional tweaks against floaties. The fact that MK gets unDIable, inescapable zero to deaths from the ground level of the stage is not ok. We all saw what Abadango did to Samsamora yesterday in grand finals of clutch city. I'd be fine with giving MK a buff in other areas as he's not broken by any means against most of the cast. But it's just way too cheesy and guaranteed against floaties. There needs to be some kind of counterplay.

-Upair needs less KBG on luma. People dying at 20% off the top from a single upair is not ok. Same goes for dair.

: It's not Uair's fault, it's how the characters are built. just so happen to have the perfect attributes to get wrecked by MK's ladder combo, which daily reminder, got nerfed so it couldn't combo to death. Nerfing Uair won't fix anything anyways, MK destroys this characters anyways. For other examples of this all get wrecked by by how they are designed, get shut down bydue to how their tools interact, SEEM designed to go 100:0 against , gets shut down by basically anyone, gets destroyed by in every sense possible, etc. And MK goes 70:30 against a lot of the cast anyways (etc).

On Uair. It's MU ignorance, not Luma's fault.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Most of your arguments are just hasty assumptions that don't make much sense, so I'll only rebut the one that you gave a decent explanation for.

I say this over and over, but NEEDS the Hoo-hah. He is a walking sandbag with terrible landing options and ledge options that are exploitable by 3 year olds.

I'm not saying that he should lose any of his followups at all. I'm fine with his combos and the Ding Dong, I just want them to do slightly less damage because right now the only other combo throw that does as much damage as his (R.O.B. D-throw) isn't NEARLY as consistent. He would get the knockback and hitstun increased to match how it is now, so it's only a slight nerf. And again, I'd give him plenty of buffs to other moves to compensate, so the changes I want should buff him overall, and hopefully they would slightly shift his focus away from grabs, which right now are arguably too important in his game plan.

Also consider this: Bowser had his U-throw buffed to be a combo throw, but at the same time its damage was nerfed FOUR PERCENT, from ten down to six. To add insult to injury, his throw was then nerfed the next patch to where Koo Pah is much tighter to land. DK got neither a damage reduction nor a combo nerf, so getting one of the two is justifiable. I could have increased the knockback growth so Ding Dong almost never works, but that would nerf DK more than a damage nerf to his already high damaging moveset.

 

[Zerp]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned what is obviously the most OP move in the game, come on guys, you should all know the answer by now, it's 's spinphony! Duh.

Outside of the obviously broken spinphony, I think True Shoryuken's a wee bit busted, are the 6 frames of invincibility on such a powerful move really necessary? I'd like to see either it's raw power reduced or those invincibility frames change. Other than that, I think limit Cross Slash could use more lag, although, I think that's probably how the dev team intended it to be.

Anyways for today, we're discussing what moves we think are Under-tuned and/or UP and anything else balance related.

Also, would you guys rather we dedicate a week to stage discussion after this week, or would you like to just start the next round of character discussion after tomorrow?

Spoiler: Schedule

Tomorrow: Another poll discussing opinions on your main and how they relate to other characters.
Day after that to ???: Possibly a few days dedicated to stages?

 

[Bigbomb2]

In terms of being underwhelming as a whole and have very lackluster Up-B's. They just need something more because they're so easy to intercept. I'm thinking increase their speed when recovering. also has a pitiful F-tilt while I'm thinking of it

 

[FamilyTeam]

I am sad how this basically degraded to "ask for nerfs for moves I don't know how to avoid".

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not sure a whole week for stages is really necessary, but I do think that they should be discussed.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I am sad how this basically degraded to "ask for nerfs for moves I don't know how to avoid".

Example?

As for Underpowered moves, I'd go with 's Dair.
The hitboxes are small so opponents can easily fall out of them, it suffers 20 frames of landing lag meaning opponents can punish Pacman for landing with move on hit, it's autocancel window is unreliable at 56 frames and it only average at 10 damage when all hits connect that sends the opponent at a bad angle which can't kill or allows Pacman to follow up on.
The only advantage it has is that it's can cover ledge options but then it still suffers from landing lag on neutral or roll get ups.

I say all the move should receives bigger hitboxes on all hits, the landing lag reduce from 20 to 11 and final should deliver a weak meteor/spike hit similar to 's.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Maybe 2 or 3 days for stages? I don't want to spend too long with them.

As for undertuned moves, there are a lot more:

F-tilt is so underwhelming compared to the rest of her moveset. Decent damage, but terribly laggy and doesn't combo or kill.
D-tilt needs to have a reason to use over F-tilt. Less end lag, maybe?
F-tilt is entirely outclassed. I feel like it should launch more horizontally to distinguish it from the more useful D- and U-tilts.
Jet Hammer desperately needs no self damage and less lag.
F-tilt needs less end lag to make up for it being weaker than Pit's, otherwise it has little to no use.
Why does Giant Punch put him into freefall, again?
Duck Jump is easily the worst flying recovery. Decent distance, but no hitboxes, uncancelable, and travels pitifully slow.
Fire Bird is entirely outclassed by Fox's up-B. It should have more knockback than Fox's like in previous games, which would make up for it going shorter and having less mobility afterward.
His Up-B should be more powerful than Falcon's to make up for it being slower and having less horizontal distance.
Of all her moves, Rollout and Sing need huge buffs to be useful. Rollout should charge faster and not put you into a freefall-esque state after landing it in the air, and Sing should knock away aerial fighters, not trigger counters, and have less end lag.
U-air has literally no practical use. At least his other aerials have something they can somewhat do...
Extreme Speed needs less landing lag and less bounce back when hitting a wall (like Greninja's buff).
/ Why do their neutral B's put them into freefall, again?
/ D-air needs to have less end lag or always spike. The risk/reward is currently too skewed to the left ATM.
F-tilt should come out more quickly. It is currently outclassed by most of his other moves.
Grab. Need I say more? Also, fix D-air like MrGameguycolor suggested.
Increase knockback of F-tilt, have Autoreticle stay locked onto its target, and increase knockback of counter. Speaking of...
Increase knockback of counter, and make F-tilt either kill better or combo better.
Make jabs connect reliably, and decrease end lag of F-tilt.
Increase duration of U- and D-air so they match the giant laser-sword that stays out for a while.
Make F-smash more powerful or just generally better.
Egg Roll should travel faster and have less end lag.
Din's Fire. Why does it take so long to come out and put her into free fall?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Warlock Thrust probably gets the biggest mention, since it's not only slower than most of Ganondorf's standard attacks, but it's also very pitiful in the knockback department, and has no super armor either. Pretty much every one of Ganondorf's standard attacks strike faster, and KO sooner than Warlock Thrust, with the only real exception being u-tilt. However, u-tilt is much more rewarding when it does hit, while there's practically no reason to be using Warlock Thrust.

In regards to no customs, Palutena definitely has some underwhelming attacks, such as f-tilt and Counter. F-tilt has weak knockback for an attack that has a long start-up lag time. As for Counter, even when it blocks a heavy hitting attack, it still can't secure KOs like with most other Counter attacks; only Greninja's Substitute is worse than Palutena's Counter, and that's only because Greninja's counterattack can be interrupted.

I actually did give a large buff to those two moves so that f-tilt has better knockback to make up for the start-up lag, while Counter's knockback is buffed high enough to give even Ike's Counter a run for its money.

 

[Arthur97]

Honestly, I think it's fine for good characters to have underwhelming moves. So for them I say keep them underwhelming.

 

[L9999]

Ignore this.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Example?

Crying for Mario, Rosa and MK nerfs when they're mostly fine characters by this point.
Meta Knight nowadays is often placed at the rear end of Top 15 by most people, even. His combos were already nerfed, we don't need any more of that.
Also, Rosalina KOs people at very low percentages ridiculously rarely. It's not like you see Dabuz getting people at 10% every round. Or even every 50 rounds for that matter.
Lastly, really, when will people learn to just adapt to Mario's Up Smash? It's not even like it's the best Up Smash in this series' history, and it's hard to punish, yes, but not impossible. Sometimes a Mario ends up spamming Up Smash more than once out of desperation and people just fall for it, and then blame it on the character rather than themselves.
In a way, I almost miss it when this game had no patches.

 

[Axel311]

Jet Hammer. OMG what a mess. This move is completely useless except for very low percentage shield breaks where fully charged fsmash won't kill. It's so bad. You lose the ability to airdodge, run or shield, it's super slow to come out fully charged, it's super predictable, has a small hitbox AND it does self damage?!? why?!? I can't believe it doesn't at the very least have some super armor frames. On top of all this, Dedede's fsmash has more knockback so it's completely redundant. This has to be the worst special in the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've seen worse special moves than Jet Hammer. Armored Jet Hammer does give Dedede super armor, but it's a lot worse than the default Jet Hammer, as it can't KO reliably, even when fully charged.

Of course, Spinphony is pretty much the worst custom special move, followed by Warlock Thrust, as both of those special moves have absolutely no advantages at all.

 

[L9999]

Spinphony is the worst move in the series, period. It's only rivaled by 's throws and dash attack.

 

[Axel311]

I've seen worse special moves than Jet Hammer. Armored Jet Hammer does give Dedede super armor, but it's a lot worse than the default Jet Hammer, as it can't KO reliably, even when fully charged.

Of course, Spinphony is pretty much the worst custom special move, followed by Warlock Thrust, as both of those special moves have absolutely no advantages at all.

I'm referring to non-customs only. Yeah there's some horrible customs out there for sure, and custom jethammer is better.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm referring to non-customs only. Yeah there's some horrible customs out there for sure, and custom jethammer is better.

Hardly. Armored Jet Hammer has too many cons to even be using, as even with the added super armor, it's quite useless as a KO move with its drastically decreased damage and knockback, and its ending lag is even worse as well. And of course, the damage penalty for overcharging Armored Jet Hammer is greater than with the default Jet Hammer.

 

[Zerp]

Without factoring in customs, I'll go with 's Limit Break Cross Slash. The move's way too slow and laggy, please buff.
Okay, for real this time, as far as non-custom moves go in the under-tuned department I think 's Sing has plenty of reasons to go for some tweaking. It doesn't affect aerial opponents, yet it activates counters, the complete opposite of what you'd assume a sound-based move would do. Couple that with it's ridiculously small "reward" at low percents and slow start-up, it becomes nearly useless, it's really only used as a ledge mix-up and it isn't even very good at that. I think it could be occasionally useful though if it affected aerial opponents and either came out faster or had a better reward at low percents.

Counting customs though, what I think is the least powerful move in the game is.... still Sing, just it's variant Spinphony. Spinphony spins you around while dealing a amazing grand total of 4% and also happens to be slower than the original move to a painful extent. (Dis?)honorable mention goes to Raging Rollout, it's a stronger Rollout, except you can't turn it around and it takes 5 seconds to fully charge, yay.

Also for today, we're discussing our own mains (and secondaries, pockets, tertiaries, etc if you want to) and how they are perceived by the community, and if you believe their viability is misjudged in any way, along with any other balance related thingies you want to talk about.

Here's today's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/yAPJya8DY9Ufqx263

Also, about the stages, I think I'll just dedicate 2 or 3 days to them after the first 5 characters in the next round, I think that would work better.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I main , which is a meme for "I think the character is high tier even though he's CLEARLY low tier", but based on his theory and representation he most certainly is at least mid tier. Did you see Taiheita get second at a stacked Japanese tournament with solo Lucas? That alone proves that his theory is indeed great, along with his numerous other results.

Worst matchup is Sheik because she's amazing at neutral and edgeguarding, which counters Lucas's mediocre neutral and gimpable recovery.
Best matchup is Ganondorf because Lucas's neutral outdoes his, and Lucas can easily gimp him without much risk.

I co-main and , both of which I used to put much higher than the norm but now only slightly above it.

 

[Bigbomb2]

- Personally feel is underrated by the general population, overrated by FG Links, and better Links understand his flaws. Has frame data similar to TInk, but longer FAF and much slower mobility, yet 3 of his moves of 12 or less frames of landing lag. Has stupid amount of kill power and has a LOT of advanced tech. Also has a surprisingly decent MU spread for someone considered so low. Also has some surprisingly good results in the past few months showing that his meta is evolving. Still what I'd consider a mid-mid low tier.
- Stupidly powerful with some nasty set ups and kill confirms. His frame data is average but he's pretty mobile for an 800 pound turtle. Has no problem killing and survives forever. Also have you seen that pivot grab range? Never underestimate how quickly he can end your stock no matter how good your character is.
Also, like Link, his high level players rarely seem to travel, which hurts his tournament presence. A solid mid tier imo.

Seriously, how many characters do you think we'd see rise and fall if all their top players played in big tournaments? I always wonder that

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

- As a player who appreciates Rosalina, I still find it rather baffling how people want her nerfed when you should be more concerned about the Luma. The reason why Rosalina has been very viable is because of the Luma, and without it, her offensive game takes a huge plummet for a while.

However, my main problem with Rosalina is her air speed, which is below average when compared to more than half of the cast. Why Rosalina's air mobility is worse than that of Ike, Donkey Kong, Ryu, and Wario will always leave me scratching my head, because she looks like a fighter who would strongly excel in the air speed department. Of course, I would only have Rosalina be tied with Mewtwo in the air speed department; she would still be slower than Yoshi and Jigglypuff (along with Limit Break Cloud, Wario-Man, and Giga Mac).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I did do a negligible falling speed decrease for Yoshi, along with a small weight decrease. Oddly, even when I decreased Yoshi's weight to 102, he apparently can still survive getting 1-hit KO'd by a +85 attack Reverse Warlock Punch, and yet Link and Captain Falcon can't survive that kind of hit at all while on the stage center.

As a player who appreciates Rosalina, I still find it rather baffling how people want her nerfed when you should be more concerned about the Luma. The reason why Rosalina has been very viable is because of the Luma, and without it, her offensive game takes a huge plummet for a while.

However, my main problem with Rosalina is her air speed, which is below average when compared to more than half of the cast. Why Rosalina's air mobility is worse than that of Ike, Donkey Kong, Ryu, and Wario will always leave me scratching my head, because she looks like a fighter who would strongly excel in the air speed department. Of course, I would only have Rosalina be tied with Mewtwo in the air speed department; she would still be slower than Yoshi and Jigglypuff (along with Limit Break Cloud, Wario-Man, and Giga Mac).

So you want to buff Rosalina but nerf Yoshi? My sensors detect bias!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

L1N3R1D3R : The falling speed and weight drop that I gave to Yoshi is negligible though, as even at 102 weight, Yoshi still survived getting 1-hit KO'd from the stage center by a +85 attack Reverse Warlock Punch from Ganondorf (oddly, Link and Captain Falcon can't survive that on the stage center, despite of their 104 weight). Likewise, a 0.01 falling speed decrease is barely noticeable, but the fast-falling speed drop may be more noticeable at 2.048.

 

[Wintermelon43]

In what realistic scenario is a Yoshi going to get hit by reverse warlock punch with +85 attack?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In what realistic scenario is a Yoshi going to get hit by reverse warlock punch with +85 attack?

I'm just using an example on how small weight buffs/nerfs don't always change how quickly a fighter can get KO'd. Heck, even when I raised Cloud's weight to 104, he still could not survive getting 1-hit KO'd by a +85 attack Reverse Warlock Punch.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'm just using an example on how small weight buffs/nerfs don't always change how quickly a fighter can get KO'd. Heck, even when I raised Cloud's weight to 104, he still could not survive getting 1-hit KO'd by a +85 attack Reverse Warlock Punch.

But the point of the matter is you nerfed an upper mid tier and buffed an upper high tier, which is ruining the balance.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

But the point of the matter is you nerfed an upper mid tier and buffed an upper high tier, which is ruining the balance.

Decreasing a fighter's falling speed isn't exactly a bad thing though, as it can help improve his or her recovery. And the stat decreases can be mitigated by buffing some of Yoshi's attacks so that they're more effective to use.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

IMO is underrated and is a solid mid tier . Of course I would appreciate buffs though.

IMO is a low mid tier and could use buffs to jab, bomb, and side B.

obviously has huge problems, though I don't think she's bottom 5. Down B and side B should both be improved a lot. She should get more but those are the most obvious.

 

[Axel311]

Hardly. Armored Jet Hammer has too many cons to even be using, as even with the added super armor, it's quite useless as a KO move with its drastically decreased damage and knockback, and its ending lag is even worse as well. And of course, the damage penalty for overcharging Armored Jet Hammer is greater than with the default Jet Hammer.

I meant custom jethammer is better than regular jethammer. But yes, they're all really bad.

 

[Deleted member]

These are changes that some friends of mine helped compile for .

Attributes

• Walk acceleration increased (0 → 0.1).

Jab 1

• Startup reduced (frame 5-6 → frame 4-5).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 26 → FAF 23).
• Damage reduced (3.5% → 3%).

Jab 2

• WBKB reduced (WBKB 52 → WBKB 42).

Jab 3

• Sourspot is removed.
• Sweetspot’s knockback angle altered (50° → 70°).
• Sweetspot’s startup reduced & duration increased (frame 12-13 → frame 11-14).
• Sweetspot’s damage reduced (5.3% → 4.8%).

Dash attack

• Startup reduced (frame 15-16 → frame 13-14).
• Knockback angle lowered (60° → 40°).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 53 → FAF 48).
• Damage reduced (11.5% → 10.5%).

Forward tilt

• Startup reduced (frame 12-13 → frame 10-11).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 44 → FAF 40).
• Hitboxes become a tiny bit larger, preventing a whiff against tiny characters.
• Damages reduced (13.5%/12% → 12%/11%).

Up tilt

• Endlag reduced (FAF 40 → FAF 35).
• Hitbox duration reduced (frame 11-23 → frame 11-22).
• Damages reduced (8.5%/7.5% → 8%/7%).

Down tilt

• Startup reduced (frame 10-11 → frame 8-9).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 32 → FAF 30).
• Knockback angle changed (60° → 75°).
• BKB is increased (BKB 45 → BKB 55).
• KBG is reduced (KBG 90 → KBG 80).
• Damages reduced (9.5%/7.5% → 8.5%/7%).

Forward smash

• First hit [all angles] duration increased (frame 14-15/16 → frame 14-22).
• The first hit’s 1.5x hitlag modifier is removed (1.5x → 1.0x).
• First hit damage reduced (5.5% → 5%).
• Second hit [all angles] duration increased (frame 23 → frame 23-25).
• Knockback growth increased on second hit of normal and down-angled variations to match the up-angled one (115 KBG → 125).
• The second hit gains a “Cannot clank” property, so now it outbeats other moves.
• Endlag reduced (FAF 68 → FAF 62).

Up smash

• First hit’s KBG increased (KBG 40 → KBG 100).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 68 → FAF 60).
• First hit’s ground-target-only knockback angle is lowered (105° → 110°).

Down smash

• First hit damages increased (14%/11% → 16%/14%).
• Second hit damages increased (12%/10% → 14%/12%).
• Third hit damages increased (10%/8% → 12%/10%).
• Fourth hit damages increased (8%/6% → 10%/8%).
• Fifth hit damages increased (6%/4% → 8%/6%).
• Endlag increased (FAF 83 → FAF 90).

Neutral air

• Startup reduced & duration increased (frame 13-30 → frame 12-40).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 71 → FAF 61).
• Autocancel frame window altered (80> → 65>).
• Gains an additional autocancel window (frame 1-3).

Forward air

• Startup reduced & duration increased (frame 14-18 → frame 12-18).
• Sweetspot damage increased (8% → 9.5%).
• Sourspot damage increased (6.5% → 8%).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 42 → FAF 39).
• Autocancel frame window altered (57> → 44>).
• Gains an additional autocancel window (frame 1-5).
• Landing lag increased (16 frames → 18 frames).

Back air

• Startup reduced & duration increased (frame 18-20 → frame 17-20).
• Late hitbox duration increased (frame 21-22 → frame 21-23).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 55 → FAF 51).
• Autocancel frame window altered (79> → 58>).
• Gains an additional autocancel window (frame 1-3).
• Late hitbox KBG reduced (KBG 100 → KBG 95).
• Landing lag increased (19 frames → 21 frames).
• Sweetspot damage reduced (12.5% → 12%).
• Sourspot damage increased (8.5% → 10.5%).

Up air

• First hit startup reduced & duration increased (frame 14-15 → frame 13-18).
• First hit’s 96° knockback angle altered & becomes aerial-target-only (96° → 366°).
• Autocancel frame window altered (79> → 60>).
• Gains an additional autocancel window (frame 1-4).
• First hit damage reduced (5.5% → 4.5%).
• Second hit startup altered (frame 24-25 → frame 19-22).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 60 → FAF 59).
• Second hit damage reduced (10.5% → 9.5%).

Down air

• First hit startup reduced & hitbox duration increased (frame 14-15 → frame 13-18).
• The first hit’s 1.2x hitlag multiplier is removed.
• First hit damage reduced (7.5%/6% → 6.5%).
• Autocancel frame window altered (78> → 60>).
• Down air gains an additional autocancel window (frame 1-3).
• Second hit startup altered (frame 23-24 → frame 19-22).
• Second hit’s aerial-target-only meteor BKB increased (BKB 10 → BKB 20).
• Endlag reduced (FAF 61 → FAF 59).

Grab

• Pummel’s 1.5x hitlag modifier is removed (1.5x → 1.0x).
• Pummel’s IASA reduced (IASA 27 → IASA 26).

Up throw

• Endlag reduced (FAF 48 → FAF 44).
• First hit’s 1.5x hitlag modifier reduced (1.5x → 1.2x).

Ledge attack

• Hitbox range increased by an undetermined amount.
• Endlag reduced (FAF 56 → FAF 55).

Neutral Special | Monado Arts

• Duration reduced (16 seconds [960 frames] → 15 seconds [900 frames]).

翔 Monado Jump

• Jumpsquat frames reduced (5 frames → 4 frames).
• Footstool jumpsquat frames reduced (7 frames → 6 frames).

疾 Monado Speed

• Spotdodge intangibility window increased (frame 3-18 → frame 2-18)
• Spotdodge endlag reduced (FAF 28 → FAF 27).
• Forward roll & back roll intangibility window increased (frame 4-17 → frame 3-17).
• Forward roll & back roll endlag reduced (FAF 31 → FAF 30).
• Airdodge intangibility window increased (frame 3-28 → frame 2-28).
• Airdodge endlag reduced (FAF 34 → FAF 33).
• Ground Friction multiplier is lower (1.5x → 1.2x). [Ingame: 0.066 → 0.0528]
• Air Acceleration multiplier is lower (1.3x → 1.25x). [Ingame: 0.052 → 0.0.05]
• Air Speed multiplier is lower (1.3x → 1.25x). [Ingame: 1.378 → 1.325]

盾 Monado Shield

• Damage dealt multiplier is higher (0.7x → 0.75x).
• Powershield duration increased (frame 1-3 → 1-4).
• Shield drop lag reduced (7 frames [12-18] → 6 frames [12-17]).
• Gains a new & additional Ground Friction 1.7x multiplier. [Ingame: 0.044 → 0.0748]
• Damage Taken multiplier is higher (0.67x → 0.7x).

撃 Monado Smash

• Knockback dealt multiplier is higher (1.18x → 1.298x).

Side Special | Back Slash

• The initial leap is lower, preventing Shulk from hopping over projectiles anymore but also making it easier to land a hit up close without just leaping over the opponent instead (which is especially common against smaller or thinner characters as of right now).
• Front startup & falling damages increased (10%/9% → 12%/12%).
• Back startup & falling damages increased (16%/14% → 18.5%/18.5%).
• Front landing damages increased (10%/9% → 12%/12%).
• Back landing damages increased (15%/13% → 18.5%/18.5%).
• Now snaps to the ledge for more recovering utility from frame 21-30.
• Front hitbox’s 0.8x hitlag modifier is removed.
• Endlag reduced (FAF 41 → FAF 37).
• Landing hitbox duration increased (frame 1-2 → frame 1-4).
• KBG universally reduced (KBG 100 → KBG 96).

Up Special | Air Slash

• Air Slash, Advancing Air Slash, & Mighty Air Slash allowed to ledge grab 3 frames earlier. (40> → 37>).
• First hit frame 10-11 has adjusted WBKB (WBKB 140/135/100 → WBKB 135/130/125).
• First hit frame 12-13 has adjusted WBKB (WBKB 80/78).
• First hit frame 14-15 has adjusted WBKB (WBKB 62/58).
• First hit frame 16-17 has adjusted WBKB (WBKB 43).
• First hit additional hitboxes added to frames 14-16 (5%, 86/52°, WKB: 62/58. KBG: 100, Effect: Slash).
• Second hit damage increased (5.5% → 7%).
• Second hit BKB increased (BKB 35 → BKB 45).
• Second hit KBG reduced (KBG 170 → KBG 145).

Down Special | Vision

• Grounded Vision intangibility increased (frame 1-45 → frame 1-46).
• Airborne Vision intangibility increased (frame 9-44 → frame 1-46).
• Has adjusted horizontal momentum for greater consistency.
• Regular counter KBG reduced (KBG 84 → KBG 80).
• Forwarded counter KBG reduced (KBG 94 → KBG 90).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I meant custom jethammer is better than regular jethammer. But yes, they're all really bad.

At least the default Jet Hammer can actually make KOs.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I agree with where the majority places Jigglypuff (bottom tier but not in her own tier), but I still feel like she is both somewhat underrated and overrated, she's not much better (if better at all) than the other Bottom Tier characters and I think she's probably the worst (outside of 1111 ) but at the same time she's pretty much on par with the others and isn't much worse than them either.

Here's the results of yesterday's poll: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cFVYJ6gVxsuMGa6yO8d3RMkDFihh9OgbJfpDA_AR97E/edit?usp=sharing

Anyways, today's the final break day, you may discuss whatever balance related thingies you want to and you can also vote for any of these people to discuss tomorrow:

 

[DJBor]

Do you know if there is a thread where players can post their own balance patch? I've been in the process of detailing one that does not require too many big changes to balance out the cast.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

All I will say is that people's perceptions of characters will probably change this weekend as Super Smash Con happens. I hope Mekos's performance at Road to Shine will make people notice Lucas, and then Taiheita's performance at SSC should make them move Lucas higher on the tier list like he deserves to be.

For that reason, voting .

 

[Zerp]

Do you know if there is a thread where players can post their own balance patch? I've been in the process of detailing one that does not require too many big changes to balance out the cast.

Yeah, there's two of them, the patch 1.1.7 mod thread and this thread, while I normally have a topic or character for the group to discuss for the day, your also welcome to post anything balance related you want, those topics are just guidelines really, you don't have to follow them. So if you wanted to, you could totally post your patch ideas here, I kind of wished more people did that here honestly, lol.

Also, nice signature.

 

[Zerp]

So now we're moving on to round 4! And the first character is Lucas so here's his poll: https://goo.gl/forms/fCyWcfkk6paxfHMZ2

Also, you may vote for any of these peeps to discuss tomorrow:

I'll vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is a really strong character in theory that I would put into upper-mid tier. He still has subpar results, however, and would need a few buffs before everyone agrees he is that high:

+ Increase KBG of U-smash (77 --> 85). It killed much earlier in Brawl with the same, huge amount of lag, so why the power nerf?
+ Decrease SDI multiplier on N-air (2 --> 1.5-ish) so his combos are more consistent.
+ Increase hitbox size of U-air.
+ Make PK Freeze not put Lucas into free fall.


Voting .