The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Deleted member]

I've already made my thoughts on the game's balance known, so rather than repeat them, I'm going to post this here tier list I made a few days ago.View attachment 113663 There are a few things I'm a little unsure of, like the entirety of God tier, but I'm pretty happy with it, for the most part.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I've already made my thoughts on the game's balance known, so rather than repeat them, I'm going to post this here tier list I made a few days ago.View attachment 113663 There are a few things I'm a little unsure of, like the entirety of God tier, but I'm pretty happy with it, for the most part.

This is such a weird tier list that is like the exact opposite of what I think.

Let me start with bottom tier. WHY IS PUFF NOT THERE. Zelda has better results, better theory, and a lot of other things better than Puff. WHY IS PALUTENA BELOW PUFF. Palutena has better results and theory than Puff. And if you bring up "Oh uh, Hbox beat Fatality" that is ONE notable thing I can think of. While Miis are a lot harder to do, there is no way Mii Brawler is the best. Gunner is by far imo. Gunner has the better neutral and tools in a 1111 Set up(assuming that is what theywere based on).

Ok, now onto Low tier....Shulk, DHD, Mac, G&W, and WFT all below Puff. Shulk has far more theory and results the Puff, the same with, oh wait, every other character I just mentioned. Can you please explain Puff being THIS HIGH.

Now ima look at mid...
Roy is by far the worst Fire Emblem Character, and there is no way Robin is worse than him. Robin has been getting AMAZING results for someone at her level, and if you say "Her run speed is slow" as a reasoning I will be more in shock. What is your reasoning on that(Again, I dont wanna act mean, but your over selling your mains by entire tiers)

Now, I don't know if this is ordered, but Bayonetta above Sonic? Sonic being below Ryu is questionable, and Sonic not even being in Top 6-7 is also, but why below Bayonetta. Sonic has been getting amazing results(4-5th on Das Koopas I believe) and he has one of the best theories in the game.

I also don't like the concept of "God" tier. No Character in this game is that good. I believe the highest would be like, A+, and it certaintly would not have Rosa at the top? Why you may ask? Because once Luma is gone, she drops tiers. Now, if she would never lose Luma, that spot might be good, but she doesn't! Explantion on that as well.

Now it might of seemed like I was attacking you, and it was not my intention. You just seem to overate your mains by a lot from my knowledge. Never have I ever seen Roy or Puff that high. And here I thought Wintermelon43 over rated Puff. Sorry if it seemed like I bashed on you!

 

[Wintermelon43]

I've already made my thoughts on the game's balance known, so rather than repeat them, I'm going to post this here tier list I made a few days ago.View attachment 113663 There are a few things I'm a little unsure of, like the entirety of God tier, but I'm pretty happy with it, for the most part.

I have a few questions about that list:

• Why is Diddy not in god tier (And why is Rosa #1 in that tier?)
• Why is ZSS in top 5???
• Why is Pikachu and Meta Knight so high
• How is Mewtwo not high???
• Why is Mega Man so low???
• Why is Peach, Ike, amd Lucas so high???
• Why is Toon Link, Lucario, Greninja, and Luigi so low???
• WHY IN THE NAME OF SAKURAI IS ROY SO HIGH??? Roy is bottom of low, maybe even top of bottom.
• Why is Pac-Man not mid???
• How is Dr. Mario and Falco not low tier?
• Why is Bowser, Shulk, Duck Hunt, and Game & Watch so low???
• Assuming Miis are 1111, Brawler is clearly the worst in the entire cast. Not bottom of low tier
• Why is Jigglypuff and Dedede not in bottom???
• Why is Palutena and Bowser Jr so low???
  

  I think that as of now the game is pretty balance. I still would like some buffs on the lower tiered characters. My tier list is more or less like this:
  
  

  

  
  
  This is heavily based on the results Das Koopa posts on this forum every week with some adjustments of my current thinking. Tomorrow it can be different.
  
  From a balance standpoint I would like to see everyone brought up to A-/B+ level of viability (but also some characters in these two tiers could see some adjustments), so:
  

  • Slightly tweeks to the A+ and some (not all) A characters, like just one move for these
  • Slight buffs on one or two things for the B/B- tier characters
  • Some good buffs on the C+ characters
  • Help for these poor souls on the last two tiers
  • Free Miis

  If this is based on results, why the heck is Kirby below CHARIZARD, a character notirious for having no results or playerbase?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

[QUOTE="Wintermelon43, post: 21363450, member: 294962"

• 
  If this is based on results, why the heck is Kirby below CHARIZARD, a character notirious for having no results or playerbase?

[/QUOTE]
Its not just based of results, he siad it was HEAVILY influeced by the results thing. If it was based by results than why would Lucy be that high!

EDIT:Quote fail rip

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yeah, that's about the reaction I was expecting.

This is such a weird tier list that is like the exact opposite of what I think.

Let me start with bottom tier. WHY IS PUFF NOT THERE. Zelda has better results, better theory, and a lot of other things better than Puff. WHY IS PALUTENA BELOW PUFF. Palutena has better results and theory than Puff. And if you bring up "Oh uh, Hbox beat Fatality" that is ONE notable thing I can think of. While Miis are a lot harder to do, there is no way Mii Brawler is the best. Gunner is by far imo. Gunner has the better neutral and tools in a 1111 Set up(assuming that is what theywere based on).

Ok, now onto Low tier....Shulk, DHD, Mac, G&W, and WFT all below Puff. Shulk has far more theory and results the Puff, the same with, oh wait, every other character I just mentioned. Can you please explain Puff being THIS HIGH.

Now ima look at mid...
Roy is by far the worst Fire Emblem Character, and there is no way Robin is worse than him. Robin has been getting AMAZING results for someone at her level, and if you say "Her run speed is slow" as a reasoning I will be more in shock. What is your reasoning on that(Again, I dont wanna act mean, but your over selling your mains by entire tiers)

Now, I don't know if this is ordered, but Bayonetta above Sonic? Sonic being below Ryu is questionable, and Sonic not even being in Top 6-7 is also, but why below Bayonetta. Sonic has been getting amazing results(4-5th on Das Koopas I believe) and he has one of the best theories in the game.

I also don't like the concept of "God" tier. No Character in this game is that good. I believe the highest would be like, A+, and it certaintly would not have Rosa at the top? Why you may ask? Because once Luma is gone, she drops tiers. Now, if she would never lose Luma, that spot might be good, but she doesn't! Explantion on that as well.

Now it might of seemed like I was attacking you, and it was not my intention. You just seem to overate your mains by a lot from my knowledge. Never have I ever seen Roy or Puff that high. And here I thought Wintermelon43 over rated Puff. Sorry if it seemed like I bashed on you!

I will give you that Jigglypuff may be a little too high, but I stand by Roy's placement. Out of everything on that list, that's probably what I feel most strongly about.

 

[Wintermelon43]

This is such a weird tier list that is like the exact opposite of what I think.

Let me start with bottom tier. WHY IS PUFF NOT THERE. Zelda has better results, better theory, and a lot of other things better than Puff. WHY IS PALUTENA BELOW PUFF. Palutena has better results and theory than Puff. And if you bring up "Oh uh, Hbox beat Fatality" that is ONE notable thing I can think of. While Miis are a lot harder to do, there is no way Mii Brawler is the best. Gunner is by far imo. Gunner has the better neutral and tools in a 1111 Set up(assuming that is what theywere based on).

Ok, now onto Low tier....Shulk, DHD, Mac, G&W, and WFT all below Puff. Shulk has far more theory and results the Puff, the same with, oh wait, every other character I just mentioned. Can you please explain Puff being THIS HIGH.

Now ima look at mid...
Roy is by far the worst Fire Emblem Character, and there is no way Robin is worse than him. Robin has been getting AMAZING results for someone at her level, and if you say "Her run speed is slow" as a reasoning I will be more in shock. What is your reasoning on that(Again, I dont wanna act mean, but your over selling your mains by entire tiers)

Now, I don't know if this is ordered, but Bayonetta above Sonic? Sonic being below Ryu is questionable, and Sonic not even being in Top 6-7 is also, but why below Bayonetta. Sonic has been getting amazing results(4-5th on Das Koopas I believe) and he has one of the best theories in the game.

I also don't like the concept of "God" tier. No Character in this game is that good. I believe the highest would be like, A+, and it certaintly would not have Rosa at the top? Why you may ask? Because once Luma is gone, she drops tiers. Now, if she would never lose Luma, that spot might be good, but she doesn't! Explantion on that as well.

Now it might of seemed like I was attacking you, and it was not my intention. You just seem to overate your mains by a lot from my knowledge. Never have I ever seen Roy or Puff that high. And here I thought Wintermelon43 over rated Puff. Sorry if it seemed like I bashed on you!

Um Puff's theory is MUCH better than Zelda. Zelda's only strengths are good KO power and pretty good recovery, Jigglypuff has one of those and her recovery isn't that bad either. Plus her matchup spread is far better than Zeldas, (If you need more speafics just ask). So unless your tier list is very results-centric, there is no reason for Zelda to be above Puff.

Agree with everything else though.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Yeah, that's about the reaction I was expecting.

I will give you that Jigglypuff may be a little too high, but I stand by Roy's placement. Out of everything on that list, that's probably what I feel most strongly about.

Might I get a explantion about Roy then if you feel so strongly about him?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Might I get a explantion about Roy then if you feel so strongly about him?

(I feel like this has happened before...)

Well, since you asked so nicely, simply put, I think Roy is underrated, criminally so. I concede that he's not as good as Marth, but he has the tools to be a good character. It's definitely there, you can see it in Sethlon and Ryo and anybody else who plays Roy seriously. I really don't think there's anything holding Roy back from being good in terms of viability. Results is another matter.

 

[Tizio Random]

Even as someone who loves Lucina and believes in her potential, I think 13th is a tad too optimistic for her. Marth, too.

Marth is still 12th in results and his metagame is growing rapidly. Leo is using him and I'm convinced we'll continue to see solid results. And I think Lucina and Marth are too similar to be placed differently. Why no one picks her is beyond me but in a sense understandable because she is my least played character on the game lmao

I have a few questions about that list: If this is based on results, why the heck is Kirby below CHARIZARD, a character notirious for having no results or playerbase?

But Charizard has better results than Kirby as shown in the file I'm uploading in this post. Also the order within tier could be debatable (lower tiers are IMPOSSIBLE to rank one by one perfectly). I'm also convinced that Charizard is underrated.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Marth is still 12th in results and his metagame is growing rapidly. Leo is using him and I'm convinced we'll continue to see solid results. And I think Lucina and Marth are too similar to be placed differently. Why no one picks her is beyond me but in a sense understandable because she is my least played character on the game lmao

But Charizard has better results than Kirby as shown in the file I'm uploading in this post. Also the order within tier could be debatable (lower tiers are IMPOSSIBLE to rank one by one perfectly). I'm also convinced that Charizard is underrated.

lol please. Charizard has not gotten a single result in months, whereas Kirby has had many good results from Mikekirby, Triple R, Smash god, Devon3000, etc. Unless you're basing this chart off of 1-2 weeks where Charizard got a random player getting 13th at a random local with only like one notable player, Kirby without any doubt has the better results.

Tell me one result Charizard has gotten this summer. Being used as a pocket doesn't count. Getting 13th at a random local with barely any notable players, if any at all, doesn't count either.

 

[L9999]

(I feel like this has happened before...)

Well, since you asked so nicely, simply put, I think Roy is underrated, criminally so. I concede that he's not as good as Marth, but he has the tools to be a good character. It's definitely there, you can see it in Sethlon and Ryo and anybody else who plays Roy seriously. I really don't think there's anything holding Roy back from being good in terms of viability. Results is another matter.

I think they are asking for qualities of the character that make up for his flaws. Like "His Nair is amazing for XYZ" or "his edge game is 2 good due to 123".

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think they are asking for qualities of the character that make up for his flaws. Like "His Nair is amazing for XYZ" or "his edge game is 2 good due to 123".

Oh, that I've definitely done before. I remember it vividly. Go to the search bar and look for posts I made concerning Roy, if that's what you want.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hey guys!
We should have a veterans day.
For these guys:

Cuz reasons. (And cuz 4/7 of these characters need more love)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

My tier list is in my signature, if anyone wants to know, and I do have reasons why I put characters as high/low as I did.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Oh, that I've definitely done before. I remember it vividly. Go to the search bar and look for posts I made concerning Roy, if that's what you want.

What would be the problem with reiterating if you firmly believe your cause.

 

[Zerp]

Since we've moved onto another page I'll just post today's poll again
Here's today's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/7KXe0naUB7qURRz82

The second suggestion for tiers sounds best, though I feel it should JUST be "High" and "Low" of each tier instead of also having a middle ground, which I feel would make too many tiers.

Good idea, I think that makes sense. I'll host yet another poll on that after today to go over that, and don't worry, it won't affect the schedule at all, I was planning on having another poll to deal with suggestions and the Miis.

I don't know what we should do about Miis. I would ideally like to vote for them based on Guest XXXX, but I feel like we can't do that until that's the norm for tournaments, which would take a while to enforce. Australia and New Zealand are on the right path, now to convince the rest of the world, especially the US and Japan.

Yeah, same, the miis are hard to figure out what to do with, Germany, Australia, New Zealand and the like have the ideal ruleset, but I'm not sure if it's right to vote based on that one until it's the one the vast majority of players deal with. Hopefully we'll at least get what the majority of this thread wants tomorrow with the poll but nothing will be perfect though, sadly.

Also, Zerp , you should probably make your post be as obvious as possible (make text larger, more colorful, etc.) so we can have as many people as possible be drawn to that post and thus vote for the polling system.

Just did, that's a good point, wouldn't want anyone to miss it. Thanks for the advice.

Also, right now if you change your vote, your new suggestion adds to the list instead of replacing your previous suggestion, though I'm not sure if you can fix that.

Yeah, I just noticed that myself, there's two of my own suggestions to myself lol. Unfortunately, I don't know how I'd fix it, but it isn't really a big deal thankfully.

Hey guys!
We should have a veterans day.
For these guys:

Cuz reasons. (And cuz 4/7 of these characters need more love)

I don't like spoiling surprises, but I'd say the odds of that being on my schedule are... pretty high.


Also, guys, I know Tier Lists can be a bit... controversial at times, but please remember to be nice to each other. No-one's been overly rude yet, (well, from what I've seen so far, it's midnight here, I'm not checking everything lol) but I feel like we're heading in that direction, and you see, I don't like that direction. It'd be best if we keep an eye on it just be as nice and/or polite as possible while explaining our points and such. I'd really appreciate it.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Well if we're on the topic of personal tier lists, then I might as well give my own input.

Now I tend to be very optimistic when ranking characters on tiers & I believe that every character has at least a slight chance at winning any match-up.
As for the ranking, the top 3rd is based on results & what I've see as the best, the middle is based on who I see have good potential and do fairly well, and the lower is what don't I see have much potential without some added help. (I'm basing Palutena & the Miis without customs, plus default height & weight)

Keep in mind this is all my opinion & the list is more or less how I feel about the roster as Smash 4 player, so feel free to critique my choices:

 

[FamilyTeam]

Well if we're on the topic of personal tier lists, then I might as well give my own input.

Now I tend to be very optimistic when ranking characters on tiers & I believe that every character has at least a slight chance at winning any match-up.
As for the ranking, the top 3rd is based on results & what I've see as the best, the middle is based on who I see have good potential and do fairly well, and the lower is what don't I see have much potential without some added help.

Keep in mind this is all my opinion & the list is more or less how I feel about the roster as Smash 4 player, so feel free to critique my choices:

Pacman as high as he is definitely is a bit of a shocker.
Also, Marth and Lucina Top 35 definitely seems like not givin' 'em enough credit...

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Pacman as high as he is definitely is a bit of a shocker.
Also, Marth and Lucina Top 35 definitely seems like not givin' 'em enough credit...

1: I feel that people are slacking on Pacman.
2: I prefer to look at the placing of the tier rather then just the numbers. High-Mid is still very good for Marth and Lucina IMO.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

*let the hate comments commence*

 

[ShadowGuy1]

*let the hate comments commence*

Honestly one of the better tier list imo, tho Olimar might be slightly to high, but i actually really like it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

*let the hate comments commence*

Link not being bottom 15 and Lucas being that high is rediculous. Otherwise, I would probably move Little Mac to bottom of upper low, move Yoshi and Lucario much higher, move Samus and WFT up a little, move Game and Watch and Kirby higher, move Donkey Kong and Olimar lower, move Marcina lower, move Robin lower, move mega Man higher, and other slight misacellaneous changes.

 

[L9999]

*let the hate comments commence*

I would say you underrate Lucario quite a bit, he is a killer clutch that shouldn't be underestimated. (Look up Serge (yes, that Serge) and you will understand why). I think you sleep on Megaman, Wario, and the Pit Bros. DK is too mediocre for Lower High IMO and Greninja is overrated. He doesn't suck, other characters perform better. In a perfect world where everyone is a robot like Brawl 9B then I would place Greninja there.

 

[Wintermelon43]

My tier list now:

S:

A:

B+:

B:

C+:

C:

D:

E:

F:

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

That entire C tier could all move up, and Marth is also notably low.

Anyway, I've reworked my tier list based on certain suggestions:

 

[Wintermelon43]

That entire C tier could all move up, and Marth is also notably low.

Anyway, I've reworked my tier list based on certain suggestions:

Pac-Man was too low not too high dude

 

[ShadowGuy1]

My tier list now:

S:

A:

B+:

B:

C+:

C:

D:

E:

F:

There is literally no way Pac-Man is better than Corrin,Robin, and Ike. All of them have far more than Pac in just about ever compartment besides projectile game, which Robin still has.


I have noticed from every list everyone has their main higher the the position I normally see them, and that ain't so surprising.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Pac-Man was too low not too high dude

I only moved him down because I moved Wario up, and he was the worst character in Upper Mid. He only moved down one position, don't worry too much.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

There is literally no way Pac-Man is better than Corrin,Robin, and Ike. All of them have far more than Pac in just about ever compartment besides projectile game, which Robin still has.


I have noticed from every list everyone has their main higher the the position I normally see them, and that ain't so surprising.

1: I agree on Corrin & a little on Ike, but not Robin. I believe that both their zoning games are about equal, but Pacman's superior mobility and recovery are enough to past Robin.

2: Why do you feel the need to bring it up?

 

[L9999]

1: I agree on Corrin & a little on Ike, but not Robin. I believe that both their zoning games are about equal, but Pacman's superior mobility and recovery are enough to past Robin.

2: Why do you feel the need to bring it up?

Checkmate is much better than anything Pac-Man has.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Checkmate is much better than anything Pac-Man has.

Okay, could you explain why you think that?

 

[L9999]

Pac-Man can't kill reliably and fast, Checkmate is a kill confrim from a throw that kills reliably at 95%. And even without Checkmate, Robin has the luxury of throwing out Levin aerials and kill, Pac-Man doesn't. He can do damage all day, but he struggles super hard to kill and on top of that, his traps and item play can be screwed if the opponent grabs the fruit and knocks out the hydrant. Robin's zoning cannot get ruined this way, another thing Robin has over Pac-Man.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I only moved him down because I moved Wario up, and he was the worst character in Upper Mid. He only moved down one position, don't worry too much.

Yea but now he's in lower mid, which isn't accurate. He's more of an upper mid character.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Top -
High -
Lower-High -
Mid - ()
Slightly Lower Mid -
Lower -
Actual Low -

Here's a slightly edited version of my general tier list. Personally don't believe many characters in this game are truly unviable. Heck I think D3 isn't good almost at all and he always seems to pull out some results

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So uh, here is my mostly unordered tier list. If you have any questions, please ask away!

 

[Wintermelon43]

View attachment 113898
So uh, here is my mostly unordered tier list. If you have any questions, please ask away!

imo Pac-Man too low, Link and Little Mac too high, Zelda too high, Corrin, Ike, and Robin way too high wth, Yoshi, Luigi, and maybe Rob and DK are too low, and it's fine outside of maybe some random slight changes outherwise.

 

[Arthur97]

Not really relative to balance, but I love that Mario is finally really good. It is a Nintendo fighting game after all.

 

[L9999]

My tier list, which has changed slightly from posts before. Yes, Kirby in Bad. He sucks. His range, approach, mobility and weight are all pathetic. You camp him out, you win. He goes offstage you can chip damage him. Mii Gunner at least has a worthwhile neutral and ledge pressure. Order doesn't matter much in Good/Decent because this tiers are a mess. Opinions are welcomed.

 

[Zerp]

Doesn't really have much to do with anything anyone's discussing but one thing I want to discuss a little is that I feel like Jigglypuff is a teensy bit underrated. Now, I don't mean she isn't Bottom Tier or not the worst "natural character", but I feel like people underrate he in MU spreads, she's almost always written off as a easy win for practically anyone without any thought put into why she loses, or if she even loses the match-up. Which is very questionable imo, her strengths should obviously have a few positive match ups against other character's weaknesses, and I'm willing to bet they work out quite a bit better against some characters than what the general consensus's opinion is. (That she loses against or goes even against everybody not named Capt. Falcon, if you were wondering)

Okay then, here's yesterday's poll: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Ds_ZFfUd7AfV1y4nnSKCndEO9GZYXgidceTiFzh7xec/viewanalytics

The option to have the suggest changes for a character listed as "Buff, Don't change at all, Nerf, Change but do not Buff or Nerf overall" and the option to have the tiers listed as "Bottom Tier, Low Tier, High-Low Tier, Low-Mid Tier, Mid Tier, High-Mid Tier, etc" both won with a overwhelming majority, so the polls in the future are definitely going to reflect that, although, there was also some pretty interesting suggestion involving the tiers, so I'm going to have that winning choice go up again against the two suggestions to figure out which one would be preferred.

Kidnap Sakurai and force him to buff Jigglypuff and King Dedede

I like your way of thinking.

Maybe just have a "High" and "Low" of each tier instead of also having a middle ground, which might make too many tiers.

Bottom, low, low-mid, mid, high-mid, high, top.

Discuss custom moves.

Added all of these to the poll

More puns

Your right, we need more puns, next round of voting will have 200% more puns, with a money back guarantee!


Anyway, for today's poll, we're discussing Mii Rulesets, which of the three tier list formats we should use, and which group of Veterans we'll talk about first for the Veteran day, and whether or not we should discuss Customs at all, along with more suggestions of course.
Here's today's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/HKC7fyOH3djrBgoy1

Also, here's the schedule of what we'll discuss for the next couple of days:

Tomorrow: First day of discussing how we'd hypothetically balance some cut veterans.
Day 2: Second and last day of discussing how we'd hypothetically balance some cut veterans.
Day 3: Discussing who you personally think is the most "balanced" character.
Day 4: Discussing what moves you believe are over-tuned/OP.
Day 5: Discussing what moves you believe are under-tuned/UP.
Day 6: Another poll discussing opinions on your main and how they relate to other characters.

Today's another day with no real focus, except for the poll, basically the same as yesterday.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Guest XXXX, seven tiers, no preference for veterans, no customs for non-Mii characters because that probably will never change in tournaments and DLC characters don't have customs. Oh, and more puns would be welcome.

My revised tier list:

Kirby in Lower Mid because he at least has certain attributes that give him niche use against certain characters (like ZSS and Fox), and his existent representation proves that.