The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

I think Ganondorf is pretty terrible as of right now, I don't see any reason as to why he shouldn't be allowed to be at least as fast as his Melee self.
Here's Ganondorf's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OYYoNNvEPsIebySLDov8fQMCJgV5WcamtY9AqYZxNVo/viewanalytics
Here's Zelda's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/LKYhL6Wj4vYsHLGi2

You may vote for any of these people who have better luck than Zelda.

(If Igglybuff wins we'll have a off day where we just discuss anything balance related.)

 

[MarioMeteor]

Zelda is universally considered a contender for worst character in the game, and I think she is. I don't even know to go about fixing her, because there hasn't been a single game where Zelda wasn't trash. I guess she could use a little bit of everything, frame data, speed, hitbox adjustments, the works. What's for certain is what they've done so far isn't enough.

Voting Brawler.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, why are you so bad when you aren't a ninja?

+ Increase walk and run speed.
+ U-smash: Decrease end lag.
+ D-smash: Increase knockback.
+ D-throw: Increase damage (more hitstun), decrease knockback to compensate, change angle to 90.
+ F- and B-air: Increase size and duration of sweetspot, decrease landing lag.
+ Din's Fire: Remove freefall.
+ Farore's Wind: Greatly decrease end lag.


Voting , I don't have a single strong and constructive opinion about any of the actual characters remaining.

 

[Arthur97]

, why are you so bad when you aren't a ninja?

Obviously to make it a more convincing disguise.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The Zelda characters really do have horrible luck in these games, don't they?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

The Zelda characters really do have horrible luck in these games, don't they?

Well, Sheik and Toon Link are doing well for themselves, and regular Link is doing pretty well in Europe, so not all of them suck...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Removing the sour spot from Din's Fire would be a start, though I have noticed that the sour spot removal makes Din's Fire quite lethal as an edge-guarding projectile. As for any other moveset changes, I may as well refer to the data from the fan patch thread...

Zelda

Spoiler

• Jab:
  • Startup: Frame 11 -> Frame 8
• Side Tilt (All Angles):
  • Damage: 12/10/10 -> 13/11/11
• Side Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 50 -> Frame 44
• Up Smash:
  • FAF: Frame 64 -> Frame 60
• Forward Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 9 - 10 -> Frame 9 - 11
  • Sourspot: Damge: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame >50 -> Frame >44
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Back Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 6 - 7 -> Frame 6 - 8
  • Sourspot Damage: 4 -> 7
  • Autocancel: Frame 52 -> 46
  • FAF: Frame 53 -> Frame 47
• Down Air:
  • Sweetspot Duration: Frame 14 - 15 -> Frame 14 - 16
  • Sourspot Duration: Frame 15 - 25 -> Frame 16 - 25
  • Sourspot: Damage: 5/4 -> 6
  • Sweetspot: KBG: 65 -> 105
• Dash Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 47 -> Frame 44
• Pivot Grab:
  • FAF: Frame 44 -> Frame 43
• Din's Fire:
  • Sourspot Damage, Angle, BKB, and KBG edited to match sweetspot.
  • Sweetspot: BKB: 50 -> 60

In terms of attribute edits, I did raise Zelda's air speed to 1.08, decreased her falling speed to 1.22, and decreased her fast-falling speed to 1.952. Of course, some people may argue that Zelda needs to fall faster, but as long as Zelda's d-air becomes more effective to use, she can probably get away with a slower falling speed.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, while I think Jigglypuff is the worst non-1111Mii character, Zelda gives her a really good run for her money, and if it weren't for her buffs I don't think it would be a contest at all. I think she definitely needs and deserves some big buffs, although honestly, I'm still jealous, I want her to get buffed, but at the same time I kind of don't. Does that even make sense? I don't think it does.

Here's Zelda's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Th2kHPm6VStk8OGaZD7i-eS6E-zLyHsS8Z_fmkWTTmE/viewanalytics
And here's Mii Brawler's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/xZ6UHPYvdbsmjroX2

You may vote for any of these scrubs who can't wavedash in Sm4sh or the lone professional Igglybuff.

Also, Mii Brawler is being treated as Guest XXXX in the poll, but your welcome to talk about any variant of him/her/other. Also, do you think that next round, I should change the poll to talk about 1111 Miis? While I prefer Germany's ruleset, most places have 1111 Miis and those are the ones most people are familiar with, so I'm considering it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

XXXX Brawler is decent enough, but 1111 Brawler has major difficulties with killing that should be addressed. He needs ending lag shaved off on all of his smash attacks and his back air should be stronger.

Voting Gunner.

 

[Dinoman96]

Mii Brawler, just like the other Miis, will always be gimped by the competitive ruleset. They're customizable characters in a meta that has since banned character customization, so yeah it's pretty easy to see why they're at a huge disadvantage.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I really don't have much to bring up for the Mii fighters. Also, I left their attributes alone.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

could use for some small buffs (mostly to custom moves), even with all customs available:

+ F-smash: Increase duration and decrease end lag.
+ Shot Put: Decrease end lag.
+ Exploding Side Kick: Make super armor start earlier.
+ Headache Maker: Decrease landing lag.
+ Soaring Axe Kick: Decrease overall lag.
+ Head-On Assault: Make hit 1 work on aerial opponents.


Now that I remembered we can talk about their custom moves, voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Now that I think about it, if we give Brawler more KO options, something should probably be done about Helicopter Kick, because that move is ridiculous.

 

[Zerp]

I think Mii Brawler with Guest XXXX is pretty close to being good, solid mid-high tier imo, he could use some slight buffs, but while I'd like him to be better, I wouldn't want to go overboard since then we could end up with a busted any size Brawler. 1111 Brawler though, is the only l character I know about (I know nothing of Mii Swordfighter, never played a good one nor have I seen one) that I think is worse than Jigglypuff, but, again, while I think the character could definitely use some buffs, at the same time, I think too many could be a problem for other rulesets. Miis are difficult to balance since there's no one universal ruleset on them.

Here's Mii Brawler's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Rz_XQ6xR6UtCHXnPp4BJonitnuQHK_d8fvY6nIFULIs/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Gunner's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/ZF6Lf6N5n4iXBEq53

You may vote for any of these smashers that mostly have great recoveries. I'll vote for Igglybuff, she's the elephant in the room that really needs to be discussed, I think she's broken.

Also, again, Mii Gunner is being treated as Guest XXXX in the poll, but your welcome to talk about any variant of him/her/other.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I would like to have several of her tools be more useful: (necessary, wishful thinking)

+ Increase angle of dash attack to 75 or 80 for better killing off the top and combo potential.
+ Do something with F-tilt. Please.
+ Decrease end lag of F-smash.
+ Make U-smash connect more reliably.
+ Decrease angle of D-smash to 30 for earlier killing off the side and a better semi-spike.
+ Make U-throw like Falco's to allow for combos and possibly killing.
+ Decrease end lag of F-air (FAF 56 ---> 50).
+ Decrease startup and increase knockback of D-air, and change one of the Sakurai-angle hitboxes to a spike.
+ Decrease end lag of Homing Missile.
+ Make Cannon Uppercut more powerful.

Voting , as I have no strong and constructive opinions of the remaining characters.

 

[Djmarcus44]

As shown by ROM beating Kirihara at Umebura 24 (This win is huge for Gunner since Rosalina is considered to be Gunner's worst matchup), the biggest roadblock to Gunner's viability is a super small playerbase.

I also found out that decreasing the end lag of Dthrow by 5 frames would give Gunner a really good get up option coverage combo that can take a fastfaller from 0 to 50 (As of right now, I think that there is a small window for an opponent to avoid the footstool after the Dthrow, but I am not sure since I am not very good at footstool combos).

L1N3R1D3R , it would probably be better to decrease the angle of dash attack so it could be easier to string it into a fair or charge blast.

 

[Zerp]

I personally feel like Mii Gunner's severely underrated and is actually a secret mid tier, and has a large amount of potential to grow, I think they could use buffs but they don't need very much imo, what they need is to be played by people a teeny bit more often.

Here's Mii Gunner's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1CmHeEXGIclYKnsle_nnZg-4QlQtrtspeiBDcXzeqmYQ/viewanalytics
And here's Igglybuff's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/lmD8JWLCSQLA9xk52

You may vote for any of these poor characters that pale in comparison to our lord and savior Igglybuff.

Today we get to discuss the most broken and absurdly powerful Smash character, Igglybuff, I'd say we should nerf her, but I'm not sure if it's even possible, I tried removing her from the game's code and she just came back. Rumor has it Mr. Sakurai never even added her, she just appeared all on her own...

(Also, for those of you who don't get it, today's a joke day, feel free to talk about whatever balance thingies you want, and Igglybuff, of course)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

the biggest roadblock to Gunner's viability is a super small playerbase.

This is probably due to the fact that the Miis aren't the best characters in the first place, and that half the people wanted to ban them.

Here is my Igglybuff moveset. It's a clone of Jigglypuff's moveset, but there are enough differences to make it somewhat interesting though. (As a side note, I have a tendency to type t instead of f when writing the names of the Jigglypuff line, so I'm surprised that there arent any Igglybutts in there. Also, it's in a spoiler box because it's long, there aren't any spoilers in this post.)

Spoiler

Neutral Attack: Igglybuff gives the opponent a one two punch. Despite the stretchy limbs involved, this attack has short range.
Dash Attack: Igglybuff headbutts the opponent from its dashing position.
Forward Tilt: Igglybuff does a roundhouse kick. Just like with the neutral attack, its limbs stretch when using this move, but it doesn’t have much range.
Up Tilt: Igglybuff grows a blade of grass so large that it hits opponents directly above it. It also ties the grass into a knot.
Down Tilt: Igglybuff kicks the opponent while crouching. This attack also lacks range.
Forward Smash: Igglybuff launches itself forward.
Up Smash: Igglybuff fires a stream of fire from its mouth. This attack deals a lot of damage, but doesn’t launch opponent very far.
Down Smash: Igglybuff shouts to create sound waves that damage opponents around it. It is Igglybuff’s strongest Smash Attack, but you have to wait 5 seconds before using it again.
Neutral Aerial: Igglybuff creates a storm of electricity around it. This attack is similar to Mewtwo’s and is extremely good for combos.
Forward Aerial: Igglybuff kicks forward. It has the same range as Jigglypuff’s forward attack, but is quicker.
Back Aerial: Igglybuff punches behind it while dark energy surrounds it. This is a great attack for executing a wall of pain.
Up Aerial: Igglybuff flings an item over its head.
Grab: Extremely Short, but quick.
Pummel: Deals 2% and is the fastest in the game.
Forward Throw: Igglybuff puffs up to launch the opponent.
Back Throw: Igglybuff twirls around to throw the opponent behind her.
Up Throw: Igglybuff throws the opponent up.
Down Throw: Igglybuff jumps on the opponent several times.
Neutral Special: Bounce-Igglybuff flies up, then crashes down similar to the Bowser Bomb and Yoshi Bomb attacks. Unlike the previously mentioned moves, this attack can be used for recovery, though it isn’t as powerful, and cannot break shields in one go. It is harder to punish though, as Igglybuff bounces back up when it lands.
Side Special: Pound-Igglybuff punches the opponent. This attack does a lot of shield damage, but has pitiful range. It does have less ending lag then Jigglypuff’s Pound though.
Up Special: Sing-Igglybuff sings, creating soundwaves around it that put opponents to sleep. This attack has a larger radius than Sing, but cannot be used again for 13 seconds.
Down Special: Rest-Igglybuff goes to sleep. If an opponent is extremely close to it, they will be launched, take lots of damage, and get a flower on their head.
Final Smash: Puff Up-Igglybuff grows to a large size, pushing any opponents to its side away.
Up Taunt: Igglybuff does a little dance.
Side Taunt: Igglybuff plays around with a present.
Down Taunt: Igglybuff throws a temper tantrum.
On-Screen Appearance-Comes out of a Poké Ball.
Cheer-Igg-gly-buff! That’s-the-stuff!
Victory Fanfare-Remix of the Pokémon Main Theme. Same as all the other Pokémon’s fanfares.
Winning Pose-Igglybuff will either bounce continually, opens a present, or puts on a Yellow Scarf and acts touch.
Loosing Pose-off-white (Default), Pink while wearing a yellow belt (Shiny w/Power Belt), Blue with a purple band around its head (Nidoqueen’s colors w/Power Lens), Default colors with black specs and a black moustache, Shiny colors while wearing a red feather and a white beard, normal colors while wearing a Bamboo Sprig Hat, Shiny colors while wearing a fedora, Normal colors while wearing a bow.

Here is my Cleffa moveset from before. I added some more depth to it as well. (once again there are no actual spoilers, just a long post)

Spoiler

Cleffa is one of the lighter characters in the game, being heavier than Pikachu, but lighter than Rosalina & Luma. Cleffa is also slightly faster than the medium paced runners. It’s main gimmick is that it can copy the attributes of other fighters for a bit, allowing for endless possibilities depending on who you are fighting.

Neutral Attack-Cleffa attacks with a glowing leaf twice, then rapidly attacks with leaves, before finishing off the combo with a headbutt. 2%, 2%, 1% per hit, 3%
Dash Attack-Cleffa launches itself forward. 6%
Forward Tilt-Cleffa throws a present at the opponent. This attack can be reflected 4% (sometimes heals for 1%, and has a higher chance each time it is reflected.)
Up Tilt-Cleffa twirls around as snowflakes shoot upward around Cleffa’s body. 4%
Down Tilt-Cleffa fires a stream of fire from its mouth. This attack is surprisingly good at edge guarding, but can be reflected. 2%
Forward Smash-Cleffa fires a beam of electricity forward. (Similar to Pikachu’s Thunderbolt in the anime.) 14-19%(sourspot) 16-20% (sweetspot)
Up Smash-Cleffa fires three hearts above it by blowing a kiss. 14-18%
Down Smash-Cleffa jumps, and yells upon landing. The yell creates soundwaves all around Cleffa. 18-22%
Neutral Areal-Cleffa fires toxic fumes from its mouth as it twirls around. 5%
Forward Aerial-Cleffa yells. This creates soundwaves that damage the opponent. 6%
Back Areal-Cleffa flings a berry behind it. 3%
Up Areal-Cleffa fires a green beam of energy upward. 4%
Down Areal-Cleffa ground pounds. 10%
Grab-Cleffa grabs the opponent. It’s extremely short.
Pummel-Cleffa headbutts the opponent.
Forward Throw-Cleffa throws the opponent forward. 5%
Back Throw-Cleffa throws the opponent backward 4%
Up Throw-Cleffa throws the opponent upward, then headbutts it. 4%
Down Throw-Cleffa jumps on the opponent. 2%, 3%
Floor-Cleffa flashes. At the end of the flash Cleffa is back on its feet. 4%
Edge-Cleffa forcefully gets up. 3%
Neutral Special-Psych Up: Cleffa copies the stats of the nearest character. This only last as long as Shulk's Monado Arts, however, and there is a cooldown time. 0%
Side Special- Zen Headbutt: This special move works exactly like Pikachu’s Skull Bash, except Cleffa travels faster. 5-13%
Up Special-Secret Power: Cleffa spins around as pink energy surrounds it. Cleffa is launched in the direction you choose. 14%
Down Special-Encore: Cleffa points in front of it, as if to display the opponent. If the opponent attacks it, Cleffa happily backflips, and applauds the opponent. This forces the opponent to use the same attack a couple more times. 0%
Final Smash-Metronome: Time stops as Cleffa does a little dance involving it waving its arms, then Cleffa uses a random Final Smash. Varies
Up Taunt-Jumps up and Down.
Side Taunt-Dances
Down Taunt-Dances.
On-Screen Appearance-Comes out of a Dusk Ball.
Cheer-Cleffa! Cleffa! You’re so cute!
Victory Fanfare-Remix of the Pokémon Main Theme. Same as all the other Pokémon’s fanfares.
Winning Pose-Jumps happily, Sings, or Sleeps.
Loosing Pose-Cleffa sits down, disappointed.
Pallet Swaps-Pinkish with Brown Ears (Normal), Light Pink with Green Ears (Shiny), Yellow with Black Ears (Pichu colors), Dark Pink with Yellow Ears (Smoochum colors), Red with Yellow Ears (Magby colors), Blue with Black Ears (Wynaut colors), Black with Red Ears (Also has neon blue lightning patterns on its cheeks because why not?), Green with Light Blue Ears.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

In terms of overall balance, I would like to see the ledge grab range slightly changed. I think it should be larger when you're facing backward, and smaller horizontally when you're facing forward. The former would help certain recoveries, and the latter would make edgeguarding easier. (I can't count how many times I was just a tad late on my punish because the ledge snap was so early.)

Additionally, I would like to see everyone be in the high tier range like I did last time, except now that I have fewer characters in top tier, there shouldn't be as much nerfing, and rather much more buffing. In terms of my personal tier list, top tier should be somewhat nerfed, upper high tier is fine, lower high tier could use sparse buffs, all of mid tier needs moderate buffs, upper low tier needs considerate buffs, and low tier needs almost a complete makeover.

EDIT: Just remembered, but rolls and air dodges should stale. Specifically, the more they are used, air dodges should have shorter invincibility and rolls should go a shorter distance.


I can't vote for anyone left, I would have nothing to say.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Igglybuff's up smash needs to be buffed. Instead of it doing 45% and coming out on frame 2, it should do 60% and come out on frame 1. Oh, and her Final Smash should erase the character that it hits from the game, rather than just doing 999%.

+ Make Cannon Uppercut more powerful.

Cannon Uppercut is disgustingly powerful as is. If anything, it's distance should be increased.

Anyway, the only non-character-specific change I'd like to see is the removal of Rage. Well, actually, I heard someone suggest that momentum should carry over from jumps, and I like that idea, too.

Oh, and bring back DACUS, why did they remove that?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Oh, and bring back DACUS, why did they remove that?

They did? I thought certain characters (like Wii Fit Trainer) could still could do it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

They did? I thought certain characters (like Wii Fit Trainer) could still could do it.

No, they took it out on like, Smash 3DS's first patch.

 

[Zerp]

This is probably due to the fact that the Miis aren't the best characters in the first place, and that half the people wanted to ban them.

Here is my Igglybuff moveset. It's a clone of Jigglypuff's moveset, but there are enough differences to make it somewhat interesting though. (As a side note, I have a tendency to type t instead of f when writing the names of the Jigglypuff line, so I'm surprised that there arent any Igglybutts in there. Also, it's in a spoiler box because it's long, there aren't any spoilers in this post.)

Spoiler

Neutral Attack: Igglybuff gives the opponent a one two punch. Despite the stretchy limbs involved, this attack has short range.
Dash Attack: Igglybuff headbutts the opponent from its dashing position.
Forward Tilt: Igglybuff does a roundhouse kick. Just like with the neutral attack, its limbs stretch when using this move, but it doesn’t have much range.
Up Tilt: Igglybuff grows a blade of grass so large that it hits opponents directly above it. It also ties the grass into a knot.
Down Tilt: Igglybuff kicks the opponent while crouching. This attack also lacks range.
Forward Smash: Igglybuff launches itself forward.
Up Smash: Igglybuff fires a stream of fire from its mouth. This attack deals a lot of damage, but doesn’t launch opponent very far.
Down Smash: Igglybuff shouts to create sound waves that damage opponents around it. It is Igglybuff’s strongest Smash Attack, but you have to wait 5 seconds before using it again.
Neutral Aerial: Igglybuff creates a storm of electricity around it. This attack is similar to Mewtwo’s and is extremely good for combos.
Forward Aerial: Igglybuff kicks forward. It has the same range as Jigglypuff’s forward attack, but is quicker.
Back Aerial: Igglybuff punches behind it while dark energy surrounds it. This is a great attack for executing a wall of pain.
Up Aerial: Igglybuff flings an item over its head.
Grab: Extremely Short, but quick.
Pummel: Deals 2% and is the fastest in the game.
Forward Throw: Igglybuff puffs up to launch the opponent.
Back Throw: Igglybuff twirls around to throw the opponent behind her.
Up Throw: Igglybuff throws the opponent up.
Down Throw: Igglybuff jumps on the opponent several times.
Neutral Special: Bounce-Igglybuff flies up, then crashes down similar to the Bowser Bomb and Yoshi Bomb attacks. Unlike the previously mentioned moves, this attack can be used for recovery, though it isn’t as powerful, and cannot break shields in one go. It is harder to punish though, as Igglybuff bounces back up when it lands.
Side Special: Pound-Igglybuff punches the opponent. This attack does a lot of shield damage, but has pitiful range. It does have less ending lag then Jigglypuff’s Pound though.
Up Special: Sing-Igglybuff sings, creating soundwaves around it that put opponents to sleep. This attack has a larger radius than Sing, but cannot be used again for 13 seconds.
Down Special: Rest-Igglybuff goes to sleep. If an opponent is extremely close to it, they will be launched, take lots of damage, and get a flower on their head.
Final Smash: Puff Up-Igglybuff grows to a large size, pushing any opponents to its side away.
Up Taunt: Igglybuff does a little dance.
Side Taunt: Igglybuff plays around with a present.
Down Taunt: Igglybuff throws a temper tantrum.
On-Screen Appearance-Comes out of a Poké Ball.
Cheer-Igg-gly-buff! That’s-the-stuff!
Victory Fanfare-Remix of the Pokémon Main Theme. Same as all the other Pokémon’s fanfares.
Winning Pose-Igglybuff will either bounce continually, opens a present, or puts on a Yellow Scarf and acts touch.
Loosing Pose-off-white (Default), Pink while wearing a yellow belt (Shiny w/Power Belt), Blue with a purple band around its head (Nidoqueen’s colors w/Power Lens), Default colors with black specs and a black moustache, Shiny colors while wearing a red feather and a white beard, normal colors while wearing a Bamboo Sprig Hat, Shiny colors while wearing a fedora, Normal colors while wearing a bow.

Here is my Cleffa moveset from before. I added some more depth to it as well. (once again there are no actual spoilers, just a long post)

Spoiler

Cleffa is one of the lighter characters in the game, being heavier than Pikachu, but lighter than Rosalina & Luma. Cleffa is also slightly faster than the medium paced runners. It’s main gimmick is that it can copy the attributes of other fighters for a bit, allowing for endless possibilities depending on who you are fighting.

Neutral Attack-Cleffa attacks with a glowing leaf twice, then rapidly attacks with leaves, before finishing off the combo with a headbutt. 2%, 2%, 1% per hit, 3%
Dash Attack-Cleffa launches itself forward. 6%
Forward Tilt-Cleffa throws a present at the opponent. This attack can be reflected 4% (sometimes heals for 1%, and has a higher chance each time it is reflected.)
Up Tilt-Cleffa twirls around as snowflakes shoot upward around Cleffa’s body. 4%
Down Tilt-Cleffa fires a stream of fire from its mouth. This attack is surprisingly good at edge guarding, but can be reflected. 2%
Forward Smash-Cleffa fires a beam of electricity forward. (Similar to Pikachu’s Thunderbolt in the anime.) 14-19%(sourspot) 16-20% (sweetspot)
Up Smash-Cleffa fires three hearts above it by blowing a kiss. 14-18%
Down Smash-Cleffa jumps, and yells upon landing. The yell creates soundwaves all around Cleffa. 18-22%
Neutral Areal-Cleffa fires toxic fumes from its mouth as it twirls around. 5%
Forward Aerial-Cleffa yells. This creates soundwaves that damage the opponent. 6%
Back Areal-Cleffa flings a berry behind it. 3%
Up Areal-Cleffa fires a green beam of energy upward. 4%
Down Areal-Cleffa ground pounds. 10%
Grab-Cleffa grabs the opponent. It’s extremely short.
Pummel-Cleffa headbutts the opponent.
Forward Throw-Cleffa throws the opponent forward. 5%
Back Throw-Cleffa throws the opponent backward 4%
Up Throw-Cleffa throws the opponent upward, then headbutts it. 4%
Down Throw-Cleffa jumps on the opponent. 2%, 3%
Floor-Cleffa flashes. At the end of the flash Cleffa is back on its feet. 4%
Edge-Cleffa forcefully gets up. 3%
Neutral Special-Psych Up: Cleffa copies the stats of the nearest character. This only last as long as Shulk's Monado Arts, however, and there is a cooldown time. 0%
Side Special- Zen Headbutt: This special move works exactly like Pikachu’s Skull Bash, except Cleffa travels faster. 5-13%
Up Special-Secret Power: Cleffa spins around as pink energy surrounds it. Cleffa is launched in the direction you choose. 14%
Down Special-Encore: Cleffa points in front of it, as if to display the opponent. If the opponent attacks it, Cleffa happily backflips, and applauds the opponent. This forces the opponent to use the same attack a couple more times. 0%
Final Smash-Metronome: Time stops as Cleffa does a little dance involving it waving its arms, then Cleffa uses a random Final Smash. Varies
Up Taunt-Jumps up and Down.
Side Taunt-Dances
Down Taunt-Dances.
On-Screen Appearance-Comes out of a Dusk Ball.
Cheer-Cleffa! Cleffa! You’re so cute!
Victory Fanfare-Remix of the Pokémon Main Theme. Same as all the other Pokémon’s fanfares.
Winning Pose-Jumps happily, Sings, or Sleeps.
Loosing Pose-Cleffa sits down, disappointed.
Pallet Swaps-Pinkish with Brown Ears (Normal), Light Pink with Green Ears (Shiny), Yellow with Black Ears (Pichu colors), Dark Pink with Yellow Ears (Smoochum colors), Red with Yellow Ears (Magby colors), Blue with Black Ears (Wynaut colors), Black with Red Ears (Also has neon blue lightning patterns on its cheeks because why not?), Green with Light Blue Ears.

Both of these movesets are absolutely glorious!

my personal tier list,

Hey, I don't fully agree with it or anything, but I just wanted to say that's easily the most agreeable Tier List I've seen posted on this site this month.



Anyway, one thing I've always wanted to see is Rage being exclusive to Super-Heavy characters + Wario, this way the characters that really need it keep it and get soft buffs while the characters that truly suffer due to it are mostly releived, seems like a win-win.
Also, since noone voted I'm going to be a dictator and say we're doing Yoshi today.


Here's Igglybuff's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Wj-thnGyBiIG37Kah9DXypQezMylEWj-k2T155llm9w/viewanalytics
and here's Yoshi's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/lbr6FJfb6xdXmpyj1

You may vote for any of these poor characters that were unluckily not in the PC version of Mario is Missing, which is the best game ever made if you didn't know.

I'll vote for Edgy Pit.

 

[FamilyTeam]

IIn terms of my personal tier list, top tier should be somewhat nerfed, upper high tier is fine, lower high tier could use sparse buffs, all of mid tier needs moderate buffs, upper low tier needs considerate buffs, and low tier needs almost a complete makeover.

Honestly, yeah, your tier list is pretty agreeable but it does have some oddities. Marth and Lucina definitely aren't that spaced apart and I cannot see how Lucas would be so high right now.
This is my Tier List I made days ago. It's already somewhat outdated, but it's not like my opinion has changed that much.

EDIT: Just have my revised one instead. Old one is in the attachments.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh my god this Pac-Man underrating is getting ridiculous..... People are actually saying he's bottom 10, I legit didn't think it was possible for the general smash community to underrate a character so much......


......I'm starting to feel like Radicial Larry =



Anyway back on topic, Yoshi should probably get buffed if we try to make the game perfectly balanced, but otherwise he should be fine. So it's hard to say if he needs buffs or not (Are we answering the poll thinking of perfect balance or just to make a pretty good balanced game where the characters that need it the most get buffs? Zerp )

idk exactatly what would deserve to be buffed of him though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If it were up to me I'd nerf Yoshi to the ground, or at the very least make him less annoying, but I doubt that'll happen, so keep him the same.

Voting African-American Pit.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Honestly, yeah, your tier list is pretty agreeable but it does have some oddities. Marth and Lucina definitely aren't that spaced apart and I cannot see how Lucas would be so high right now.

I can understand where you're coming from with both of those critiques, and honestly I might change those things. However, I have legitimate reasons for putting those characters where I did.

The reason why I put Marth so high and Lucina not trailing him is again based on "theory" not being proven. Marth has recently gotten results far beyond those of Lucina's, with Mr. E placing well at EVO while beating ZeRo and MKLeo mostly using him in Mexican tournaments and still doing very well. On the other hand, Lucina's theory really only helps her more than Marth in a few select matchups, and her highest-level representation is Xaltis, who only uses her as a secondary. I might move Lucina up a spot or two, but nothing major until she proves her theory.

As for Lucas, I'll probably move him down a couple spots, but I definitely think he should stay in Lower High tier. He is most notably represented by Taiheita, who has gotten surprisingly high placements in Japanese tournaments with solo Lucas. He also has Clade, Mekos, SpaceDong, and formerly Pink Fresh doing quite well in tournaments with the character. And honestly, his theory is much better than most people think, with plenty of ways to combo, rack up damage, and kill easily; his only theoretical weaknesses are a mediocre neutral game and amateur recovery, both of which are still better than Ness's.

EDIT: Alright, I've tweaked my tier list a bit. How's this?


Sorry I don't have much to say for Yoshi. Make his grab animation better, I guess?

 

[Zerp]

Pac-Man stuff
(Are we answering the poll thinking of perfect balance or just to make a pretty good balanced game where the characters that need it the most get buffs? Zerp )

It's intended to be based around whatever the user sees as (the closest we can humanly get to) "perfect" balance right now.

Also, on the subject of tiers, I feel like Lucina's nigh impossible to rate fairly right now, on one hand she's got abysmal results compared to Marth's, on the other hand it's obviously because most people lean towards Marth instead, like seriously, how am I supposed to judge her fairly?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I can understand where you're coming from with both of those critiques, and honestly I might change those things. However, I have legitimate reasons for putting those characters where I did.

The reason why I put Marth so high and Lucina not trailing him is again based on "theory" not being proven. Marth has recently gotten results far beyond those of Lucina's, with Mr. E placing well at EVO while beating ZeRo and MKLeo mostly using him in Mexican tournaments and still doing very well. On the other hand, Lucina's theory really only helps her more than Marth in a few select matchups, and her highest-level representation is Xaltis, who only uses her as a secondary. I might move Lucina up a spot or two, but nothing major until she proves her theory.

As for Lucas, I'll probably move him down a couple spots, but I definitely think he should stay in Lower High tier. He is most notably represented by Taiheita, who has gotten surprisingly high placements in Japanese tournaments with solo Lucas. He also has Clade, Mekos, SpaceDong, and formerly Pink Fresh doing quite well in tournaments with the character. And honestly, his theory is much better than most people think, with plenty of ways to combo, rack up damage, and kill easily; his only theoretical weaknesses are a mediocre neutral game and amateur recovery, both of which are still better than Ness's.

EDIT: Alright, I've tweaked my tier list a bit. How's this?


Sorry I don't have much to say for Yoshi. Make his grab animation better, I guess?

Yeah, but the problem with using results is that you'd have to consider a series of factors alongside them. Looking up results kind of returns the fact that Lucas doesn't really have that many of them, either (that chart is from June, iirc). Judging a characters potential without results can be difficult, but atleast being a clone or a semiclone does help gauge it. That's how I came to the conclusion that Lucina can't exactly be close to Marth by atleast 5 spots but she also can't be any more than about 9 or 10 away from him. She still has a lot of the same things that make Marth good, but with different options to get to them, and having a consistent blade can make valuable differences, but the overall lack of results for her is honestly staggering and heavily disappointing, which is why I can't see them right next to each other.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Yeah, but the problem with using results is that you'd have to consider a series of factors alongside them. Looking up results kind of returns the fact that Lucas doesn't really have that many of them, either (that chart is from June, iirc). Judging a characters potential without results can be difficult, but atleast being a clone or a semiclone does help gauge it. That's how I came to the conclusion that Lucina can't exactly be close to Marth by atleast 5 spots but she also can't be any more than about 9 or 10 away from him. She still has a lot of the same things that make Marth good, but with different options to get to them, and having a consistent blade can make valuable differences, but the overall lack of results for her is honestly staggering and heavily disappointing, which is why I can't see them right next to each other.

I've seen that image being thrown around a lot. Where is it coming from, and is it taking into account Taiheita's numberous top 64 placements in stacked Japanese tournaments, Clade's good placements at regionals and top 32 placement at B.E.A.S.T. 6, or Pink Fresh's numerous top 16 Xanadu placements and top 64 placements at large tournaments before Bayonetta's release? I can see him going just below DK (and that's where I have now put him), but not much lower with these results.

That point about Lucina does make a lot of sense, though, and I have moved her within that 5-to-10-spots-behind-Marth range.

EDIT: My tier list as of now.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Oh my god this Pac-Man underrating is getting ridiculous..... People are actually saying he's bottom 10, I legit didn't think it was possible for the general smash community to underrate a character so much......

This is probably due to how weird he is. Looking at his moveset, you can tell he has some great tools, but it's hard to figure out what the heck you're supposed to be doing with them. Also, his grab is one of the weirdest things in the game. It has a long lasting hitbox, but on numerous occasions a Pac-Man CPU missed its grab even though I was clearly in it. I think the move has a blind spot in it, so that if you spot dodge it at point blank range he can't get you with it even though he is still using the attack, and there (presumably) are active frames right behind you.

As a side note, his pallet swaps are terrible. They are extremely subtle (which defeats the purpose of pallet swaps in the first place), and uninteresting even though there were more than enough references from his other games to make pallet swaps with.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I did do a negligible falling speed decrease for Yoshi, along with a small weight decrease. Oddly, even when I decreased Yoshi's weight to 102, he apparently can still survive getting 1-hit KO'd by a +85 attack Reverse Warlock Punch, and yet Link and Captain Falcon can't survive that kind of hit at all while on the stage center.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

This is probably due to how weird he is. Looking at his moveset, you can tell he has some great tools, but it's hard to figure out what the heck you're supposed to be doing with them.

Yeah, that's basically why he's so underrated. That, and for some reason people think he's easy to adapt to. He definitely shouldn't be bottom 10 considering that Abadango, Tea, Zage, and Koolaid among others seem to have figured him out and do well with him.

Also, his grab is one of the weirdest things in the game. It has a long lasting hitbox, but on numerous occasions a Pac-Man CPU missed its grab even though I was clearly in it. I think the move has a blind spot in it, so that if you spot dodge it at point blank range he can't get you with it even though he is still using the attack, and there (presumably) are active frames right behind you.

Oh gosh, Pac-Man's grab. Active frames 12-14, 22-24, 32-39, and then 37 frames of end lag (after the last hitbox goes away). Supposedly the hitbox gets larger each time, but really, why can't it be always active frames 12-39 and have much less end lag?

As a side note, his pallet swaps are terrible. They are extremely subtle (which defeats the purpose of pallet swaps in the first place), and uninteresting even though there were more than enough references from his other games to make pallet swaps with.

Seriously, why couldn't Ms. Pac-Man be an alternate costume?

 

[FamilyTeam]

L1N3R1D3R
I'd show you were I got it but when I was saving sources for my tier list, I only saved the image :v If I ever find it, I'll link it.

 

[L9999]

If it were up to me I'd nerf Yoshi to the ground, or at the very least make him less annoying, but I doubt that'll happen, so keep him the same.

Voting African-American Pit.

DI his stuff, time your airdodges offstage correctly, and never approach. MU solved.

I vote for the biggest waste of space in Smash history, Dark Pit.

In case someone ever wondered about how I see tiers and comment on balance, here is my tier list.

Order doesn't matter much because the characters fit in the tags I give them. If Lucina had killer tilts/aerials that didn't follow the "high %+rage+no staling" clause she would be in "Really good." This list does not consider custom Miis, if it did, Brawler would be in decent/good, and Swordspider would be in mediocre.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hey, L9999 ! Cute new avatar~! Can I have the source!
Also...

Is this intentional
Anyway, I think this is a good list other than the fact some characters probably should be slightly lower and some others higher? (The Pits and Yoshi)
Then again, it's your call.

 

[Deleted member]

I like how this turned into a tier list discussion when we're supposed to be discussing Yoshi. >_>

 

[L9999]

Hey, L9999 ! Cute new avatar~! Can I have the source!
Also...

Is this intentional
Anyway, I think this is a good list other than the fact some characters probably should be slightly lower and some others higher? (The Pits and Yoshi)
Then again, it's your call.

Yes. I don't think Kamui is as weak as the decent characters but strong like the really good characters. (S)he has been pulling the results too and does better than Ness/Rat in general. Pit Bros are where they are because Earth shows the true potential of the character (dude wins tournaments) but his playerbase is miniscule and none of them are as good as Earth. If he got un-nerfed from Brawl he would be in "really good" IMO. Yoshi is anything goes to place really, he has no clear position in the meta other than he is decent. As always, just my opinion and thanks for the comment.

http://vaccyputtyjuuzou.deviantart.com/art/COLLAB-Lucina-x-Ness-598653246 For the pic.

I like how this turned into a tier list discussion when we're supposed to be discussing Yoshi. >_>

Thing is almost no one know stuff wrong with Yoshi or hates Yoshi, and the remaining characters to discuss are agreed to be "fine" or a waste of space like Dark Pit. Sorry if I derailed the topic further.

 

[Axel311]

Yoshi is completely fine in my opinion. He has some great tools and some fair weaknesses. Pretty much agreed upon to be high mid tier by most, or low high tier. IMO that's a good spot to be balancing around.

 

[Zerp]

I hate it when the rain stops and my head starts to hurt.
I think Yoshi should get buffs because I want all characters to be roughly high tier, but as a Jigglypuff main, I (not so) secretly don't want it to happen. That match-up sometimes feels like wrestling with a bear, no matter what you do Yoshi's probably going to beat you out.

Here's Yoshi's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1v6p-ywJUhbD5gSh1X1A57yszqqzZhGuZls7c7_ugnV8/viewanalytics
Here's Dark Pit's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/YVIhMWnqWEpwL4OH3

You may vote for any of these characters that are significantly less likely to be mistaken as some fellow's OC than Dark Pit.
I'll be voting for .

Also, if anyone's wondering, the characters are supposed to be just a guideline, if you don't have anything to discuss about them then your welcome to discuss practically anything else (within reason). Still, I'd prefer if you try to talk about the character, even just a little bit if your posting, even a little something like "I don't know how to rate Yoshi imo" would make me pretty happy, but you don't have to do it if you really don't want to.