The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[FamilyTeam]

Yes. I don't think Kamui is as weak as the decent characters but strong like the really good characters. (S)he has been pulling the results too and does better than Ness/Rat in general. Pit Bros are where they are because Earth shows the true potential of the character (dude wins tournaments) but his playerbase is miniscule and none of them are as good as Earth. If he got un-nerfed from Brawl he would be in "really good" IMO. Yoshi is anything goes to place really, he has no clear position in the meta other than he is decent. As always, just my opinion and thanks for the comment.

You didn't get it

Thanks for the source, mate!

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'd like it if they did something to Dark Pit to make him worth his spot. Make him faster, give him a more aggro playstyle, give me an actual reason to pick him. In terms of balance, he's fine, but that's only because he's Pit with black hair.

Hey, L9999 ! Cute new avatar~! Can I have the source!
Also...

I get it.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Like his non-edgy form, all needs to excel is slightly better movement speed.

Voting , I guess.

 

[Arthur97]

Needs more edge.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Dark Pit, along with Lucina, Pichu, and Young Link (If they were brought back), need a moveset revamp. For Dark Pit, he would need a bunch of attacks using the other weapon types in the game. I would also like him to replace Electroshock Arm with Angel Ring, though that move may be contradictory the more aggressive playstyle that he would have.

For Lucina, I wouldn't know to do much other than change her Shield Breaker animation to resemble Marth's in Melee.

For Pichu, just add a bunch of non-Electric Type moves to his moveset.

And for Young Link, keep his Melee physics (Hookshot attaches to walls as well as ledges, Young Link has an infinite jab, that sort of thing.) and replace his dash attack with the Skull Splitter (or was it Helm Splitter?) technique from Twilight Princess. Also, make his taunts transform him into the Mask Links.

and Swordspider.

If I weren't lazy I would draw a spider-Mii hybrid and put it here. But because I'm lazy, you'll just have to just imagine it. (Or don't, it would probably be weird anyway.)

You didn't get it

Thanks for the source, mate!

I can't tell which is funnier: Female Corrin's "Good!", or Male Corrin's "I win!!!!"

 

[FamilyTeam]

For Lucina, I wouldn't know to do much other than change her Shield Breaker animation to resemble Marth's in Melee.

Or do an actual revamp.
Because comparing FE:SD Marth to FE:A Lucina, they're nothing alike.
Yes, I know Marth is in FE:A as DLC and he is similar to Lucina there, but this is canon appearences.

 

[Arthur97]

Lucina could use a lance for one. Maybe take a page from Codename STEAM's book and give her a bow.

 

[L9999]

Since both Pits are on the discussion line, I'll talk about both.

Slightly more airspeed (0.89 ->0.90).
Make their jumps go higher.
Meteor smashing D-Tilt.
Up Tilt ending lag from 27 to 20.
Scoop hitbox for Up Smash.


Faster F-Tilt.
Arrows: less endlag to compensate they travel slow and don't arc.
Undone damage nerfs from Brawl.
Lingering Bair from Brawl.


Undone attack speed nerfs from Brawl except arrows and F-Smash (that thing was frame 6, I can't believe it).

You didn't get it

Thanks for the source, mate!

LOL, I'm so dense!

snip

I think can work with his current moveset and make some of his electric attacks not damage him (like its grab game) and improvements on survivability and KO power. should also have Foward Smash if we are going with that plan.

Or do an actual revamp.
Because comparing FE:SD Marth to FE:A Lucina, they're nothing alike.
Yes, I know Marth is in FE:A as DLC and he is similar to Lucina there, but this is canon appearences.

To be fair, Dancing Blade is based on Astra from Genealogy of War and Dolphin Slash is based on the critical hit animation of Swordmasters from Thracia 666. If were revamped following Awakening closely, I'd do Javelin projectile, Dashing Assault with more shield damage to represent Luna, Aether would be like the forbidden fusion of Climhazard and Dolphin Slash, maybe Parallel Falchion healing (10% with FE laggy animation of course), reusing Dancing Blade up for Up Smash (to get rid of He-man Up Smash uselessness), and idle animation. Give Foward Smash SB animation as a nod.

 

[Arthur97]

Swordmasters from Thracia 666. If were revamped following Awakening closely, I'd do Javelin projectile, Dashing Assault with more shield damage to represent Luna, Aether would be like the forbidden fusion of Climhazard and Dolphin Slash, maybe Parallel Falchion healing (10% with FE laggy animation of course), reusing Dancing Blade up for Up Smash (to get rid of He-man Up Smash uselessness), and idle animation. Give Foward Smash SB animation as a nod.

Ahem, it's 776

 

[L9999]

Ahem, it's 776

I know, but the RNG makes me call it 666. Missing 86-93% chance hits (sometimes TWICE) and getting killed by 25-45% chance attacks constantly is annoying. Those numbers are a lie, it is pure luck.

 

[Arthur97]

Why would RNG affect it?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Or do an actual revamp.
Because comparing FE:SD Marth to FE:A Lucina, they're nothing alike.
Yes, I know Marth is in FE:A as DLC and he is similar to Lucina there, but this is canon appearences.

I wouldn't know. I haven't played any of the Fire Emblem games. That's why I only listed one change. It was the only one that I knew would make sense.

I think can work with his current moveset and make some of his electric attacks not damage him (like its grab game) and improvements on survivability and KO power.

I never said snip!

More seriously though I should have put more thought into what I said about Pichu since he was really the only character I knew fully what to do with. (In my opinion.) What I should have said was to give Pichu some non-Electric Type moves to increase his range and stuff, and make his KO moves Electric Type. This way Pichu can rack up damage without fear of hurting itself, then use a smash attack, Down Special , or Back Aerial (I made it an electric kick) with great results if you hit, but if you miss, it can easily lead to your death due to hurting yourself, and the end lag. Also, Agility and Skull Bash should not damage Pichu due to not actually being Electric Type (this was fixed for Pikachu in Brawl), and because of the fact that Agility is a worse version of Quick Attack anyway so there is no reason for it to damage you.

Also, I think just changing attributes on Pichu's moveset would condemn him to another game where everybody hates him for being a clone.

should also have Foward Smash if we are going with that plan.

That's a great idea! (I probably would have said this too if I knew Link's Forward Smash changed between Super Smash Bros. and Super Smash Bros. Melee)

LOL, I'm so dense!

To be fair I didn't get it either until I saw the video.

 

[LancerStaff]

Since both Pits are on the discussion line, I'll talk about both.

Slightly more airspeed (0.89 ->0.90).
Make their jumps go higher.
Meteor smashing D-Tilt.
Up Tilt ending lag from 27 to 20.
Scoop hitbox for Up Smash.


Faster F-Tilt.
Arrows: less endlag to compensate they travel slow and don't arc.
Undone damage nerfs from Brawl.
Lingering Bair from Brawl.


Undone attack speed nerfs from Brawl except arrows and F-Smash (that thing was frame 6, I can't believe it).

...Uh, once again you're making a lot of changes that really don't make sense.

Airspeed buff wouldn't really matter with how little it is, but if it were enough to matter then rising Dair would get silly really fast.

Increasing height on their jumps would be more detrimental then anything. Jumping right before hitting the ground and getting an autocancel, or mixing up with it rather, is one of his better ways to escape disadvantage.

If you're talking about something like Brawl then it really wouldn't be useful... If anything they removed it because it was so useless.

I dunno exactly how much 7 frames would effect Utilt but it's pretty close to doing crazy things already. Right now it does 10% and comes out f6. If it combo'd into aerials that's an easy 20% off of a f6 tilt. Little much, don't you think?

>Complains about f6 Fsmash that doesn't work
>Asks for more hitboxes on f6 Usmash that kills at like 125%
Okay.

Faster Ftilt and arrows on DP are fine... Though everybody asks for that.

Brawl damage would be nuts. 11% Dtilt with Marth's range? That's more then what Marth's can do. F10 Fsmash that does 19% and actually works? Fair that does more then Marth Fair damage (13% at worst for Brawl Pit) kills in this game, and can't be perfect shielded? Like, do you want Dark Pit to become Brawl Marth?

Buffing to Brawl frame data would be... Basically nothing. Pit's frame data is largely better in SSB4. Also SSB4 Pit has Brawl arrow FAF in the air, lmao.

 

[Axel311]

The pits just generally need slightly better damage output I feel and perhaps a slight buff to frame data. But giving them nothing would be fine too. They're balanced characters IMO and they're fine if the top tiers are nerfed a bit. Their main issue is they're too honest, but if some of the stupid jank stuff the top tiers in this game have was toned down a bit they'd be fine.

 

[L9999]

More seriously though I should have put more thought into what I said about Pichu since he was really the only character I knew fully what to do with. (In my opinion.) What I should have said was to give Pichu some non-Electric Type moves to increase his range and stuff, and make his KO moves Electric Type. This way Pichu can rack up damage without fear of hurting itself, then use a smash attack, Down Special , or Back Aerial (I made it an electric kick) with great results if you hit, but if you miss, it can easily lead to your death due to hurting yourself, and the end lag. Also, Agility and Skull Bash should not damage Pichu due to not actually being Electric Type (this was fixed for Pikachu in Brawl), and because of the fact that Agility is a worse version of Quick Attack anyway so there is no reason for it to damage you.

Also, I think just changing attributes on Pichu's moveset would condemn him to another game where everybody hates him for being a clone.

Why not making Bair Bair? Nothing lethal but effective. Smash 64 has a lot of interesting stuff like killer Up B, broken Dair, and broken Up B. And while Pichu is a shameless clone at least he has a creative gimmick, unlike Dark Pit.

 

[Zerp]

Dark Pit really could stand to be a bit more different from Pit, right now he's literally the exact same character but with 3 to 5 differences that matter. Not sure how but I'd hope for him to be buffed one way, and Pit to be buffed in another way, so they end up feeling a bit more different.

Here's Dark Pit's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xVhMNNkSatf34qggPZBt3R9obgtnuev10Ks9KhekP4c/viewanalytics
Here's Pikachu's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/IaNhLCRSwEajelWp1

You may vote for any of these strange humanoids.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is fine as is. Bad range and very light, but can rack damage, kill, and maneuver very well.

Voting .


Also, as a followup to my claim of Pac-Man not being bottom 10 or even low tier, I've made a lengthy post in the Community Voted Tier List thread about it:

"On the Defense of Pac-Man" by L1N3R1D3R

I've seen two posts above me dismissing as low tier. It saddens me partly because I play the character, but mostly because you guys are still following the trend and not giving him the attention he deserves. Now I'm not saying that Pac-Man is definitely a high tier character by any means, but he most certainly should not be low tier.

Ideally, a tier list should not be based solely on theory or solely on results, but a combination of the two, what I call "theorem".
~In science and mathematics, "theory" is the summation of observations made on experiments. In Smash, that means all the traps, setups, combos, etc. a character is capable of doing ideally.
~In contrast, "theorem" is a theory that has been proven. In Smash, that would be done with high-level representation and results.

I'm sure you guys can agree that Pac-Man has a pretty good theory. Sure, he has a terrible grab game and some moves are a bit too laggy, but he has plenty of strengths to mostly outweigh it. He has a great recovery that goes far, has a bit of super armor, and boasts great hitboxes. He has certain moves that have great frame data and so are very useful, with Pac Jump and N-air having very low startup as escape options, and Dash attack and F-air having very low end lag as combo options. And, most famously, his trap game is arguably one of the best in the game, with eight different projectiles in his Power Fruit that all have different properties and his Fire Hydrant which can either push you or the opponent or set up another obstacle for the opponent to try to avoid. His theory isn't too solid, of course, but it does have high potential, especially with the trapping game.

Now, for most people right now, that is where the positives of Pac-Man stop. Sure, he has pretty good theory, but that means very little until it's proven as "theorem" with results. And I will agree with the majority that he doesn't have good results at the moment. His only true mains ATM are Tea and Ginko in Japan, Sinji and Zage in the US, and Elexiao in France, with Abadango and Koolaid reserving him as a secondary or doubles character instead, and their placements are nothing extraordinary.
However, you can not dismiss the results he has gotten in the past, which are quite high. Abadango truly figured out Pac-Man back then, and he used this knowledge to place very highly in stacked tournaments, and that's no small feat. If anything, it should mean more now, considering that Pac-Man has been (albeit slightly) buffed since then. Granted, there are more characters who have made larger rises both in theory and in results, which will inevitably move Pac-Man lower than the high tier position he held in the past, but the point still stands that contrary to popular belief, his theory has been proven a lot. And it is this "theorem" he has which puts him above the characters we can unanimously agree are low tier, putting him at least out of bottom fifteen.

[A side note unrelated to his tier list position, but I thought was worth mentioning: Another argument people have against Pac-Man is that once you learn the matchup, he becomes very predictable and easy to beat. While I don't think that's true (because his trap game has so many different possibilities that every Pac-Man player has a different play style), it's not a problem even if it is true. Again, his representation at the moment is pretty low, meaning that most people will not have faced a competent Pac-Man and learned the matchup. And even so, adapting to a specific Pac-Man is more on the player and less on the character.]

I hope you guys can now see that indeed, Pac-Man has a good "theorem", more than enough to prove he should not be low tier. Stop ignoring the past, because those results still mean a lot, especially for a pre-buff version of the character.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Remember when we used to think Pikachu was top tier?
The only thing I'd change about the rat is Quick Attack, because that move is a bit too stupid right now.

 

[Axel311]

Pikachu is completely fine as is. Great character design in my opinion. Clear strengths and clear weaknesses. Solid matchup spread while not being OP. As I stated in a prior post high mid tier/low high tier is a great spot to balance around and that's where pretty much everyone not named ESAM considers the character to be right now. The character's design is fine. The broken jab lock pikachu has is really really stupid, that may need changing. If it is, then give pika some equal buff to compensate.

 

[Zerp]

Personally I feel like Pikachu's a bottom end high tier as of right now, and I think he could get a bit of slight buffs. However, Pikachu's also one of those characters where I have a suspicion that his lack of results might be more of a matter that his playerbase is holding him back more than his own viability is, so maybe buffing him is the wrong approach. I'd personally buff the character, wait a month, if he's not broken then I'd keep it, if he turns out to be, then I'd nerf him back to his current state.

Here's Pikachu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XsL-pAjJUMaraGpvwpYh7mXma8ztQ3NWnI1GvBlaeYc/viewanalytics
Here's Pit's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/g9OzyxutmYYRkmr73

You may vote for any of these strange humanoids.
I'll vote for Olimar. Psssst. Don't tell him that he isn't real, it'd hurt his feelings.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Just like his non-edgy self, all needs is movement speed buffs and he'll be golden.

I don't even know who to vote for anymore.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Not much attribute changes for Pit and Dark Pit. I only really gave the two mostly negligible buffs to their mobility stats; 1.2 walk speed; 1.663 run speed; 0.9 air speed.

 

[L9999]

I already gave my humble opinion on Pit and how to make him more than average, *thank you very much*, so I'll talk about the other characters left. As for the other characters, Olimar is a campy character no one likes but its alright, its not Brawl Olimar. Killager is a campy character that no one plays but has a lot of stupid buttons to clutch out games (bowling ball, jabs, nair, slingshots, uair, dair). Peach is a weird character no one plays with "potential" with a lot of noob killers moves (side B, vegetables, dash attack). IMO they are alright. There is some negativity with Olimar but let's wait and see. Maybe damage increases on some things, but nothing specific on top of my head. My 2 cents on the matter. Thank you very much.

 

[Zerp]

The update's probably going to be late today, yet again.

 

[Zerp]

Pit really could stand to be a bit more different from Dark Pit, right now he's literally the exact same character but with 3 to 5 differences that matter. Not sure how but I'd hope for him to be buffed one way, and Dark Pit to be buffed in another way, so they end up feeling a bit more different.

Pit's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1132f0qv683Cf3Fc9_zW2TbRUZTfWqghIyjQWsOuUcVE/viewanalytics
Olimar's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/HWHBcgy3DtJY8a452

You may vote for any of these odd beings.
I'll vote for Villager.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I have a personal grudge against and would secretly hope he gets nerfed, but I'll keep my biased opinions away from here.

Voting , I guess? I don't know...

 

[Zerp]

I'm currently trying to do a thing, I'll edit in my thoughts on Olimar after I'm done with it.

Here's Olimar's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1TzHUoid8mbAhkehbmDiRxDLRI-Yi3mi-kboRv9_DaEY/viewanalytics
Here's Villager's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/0gZvbwh2ymSD2gwq2

You may vote for any character you want in all of fiction, as long her name is Princess Peach and she comes from the Mushroom Kingdom. Don't sweat it, take your time, you've got lots of choices!

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm currently trying to do a thing, I'll edit in my thoughts on Olimar after I'm done with it.

Here's Olimar's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1TzHUoid8mbAhkehbmDiRxDLRI-Yi3mi-kboRv9_DaEY/viewanalytics
Here's Villager's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/0gZvbwh2ymSD2gwq2

You may vote for any character you want in all of fiction, as long her name is Princess Peach and she comes from the Mushroom Kingdom. Don't sweat it, take your time, you've got lots of choices!

But there is no one like that. Peach is in Bowser's Castle so much that she counts as a resident of it

Also Villager is fine.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the Villager is fine as is.

You may vote for any character you want in all of fiction, as long her name is Princess Peach and she comes from the Mushroom Kingdom. Don't sweat it, take your time, you've got lots of choices!

I'm voting for Princess Toadstool, cuz I'm a rebel.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is fine. Nothing overwhelming, but certainly a high tier competitor.

Voting for the adult female, blonde, blue eyes, last seen in a pink dress and gold crown in her castle in the Mushroom Kingdom.

 

[Axel311]

Villager is fine. Great spot for balance.

 

[L9999]

Let's make Killager's grab have 0 lag and give him Sheik mobility! Just kidding, he would be another Sanic. I vote SF5 Smash Wii U Serge (Lucario) VS Darkfall (Link).

 

[Zerp]

Blablabla This is late and I'm in a rush, somethingsomethingFamilybusiness.
Here's Villager's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1zY1V7Ovxxp58PMEJ2H6W2pLrLitU7uo1Dqqcl9dFP2s/viewanalytics
Here's Peach's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/3zX3APKBpqKbHIO83

Tomorrow's going to be a day where you discuss whatever you want, no reason to vote.

Edit: Blablabla Update will probably be late yet again due to moar family business.

I'm sorry
Edit 2: Nope, I'm back in time.
EDIT 3: Absolutely nothing of importance, I just wanted to complete the trilogy.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I feel like just needs a small push to be a fearsome competitor. Maybe increased mobility? I'm not sure.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I never really understood why Peach received a large air speed nerf after Melee, but I guess it may have to do with her air game, along with the ability to levitate for a while.

Anyway, I did alter Peach's attributes a bit, such as giving her a 1.45 run speed, and a 1.19 air speed. But because I raised Peach's air speed, I did nerf her weight down to 85.

 

[Zerp]

I think Peach has loads of untapped potential, I'd give her some slight buffs, but I'd also be careful of giving her too much because I think Peach with more players developing her meta + buffs has potential to be legitimately broken.
Here's Peach's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1RJOA-o0zXwCA9scH0HhQEiIoWJ-2vHtCEWokOEF5gwc/viewanalytics

Okay now with that out of the way, we're done with the third Round! So, now we're going to be having a "break week" before the next round where you can discuss pretty much any balance related things you want, but for today I want to discuss some changes for the next round. There's been numerous suggestions on how to improve the polling, and I think it'd be best if we voted on them, so I made a poll to help decide what changes we implement and what-not.

Here's today's poll!: https://goo.gl/forms/7KXe0naUB7qURRz82

After today I'll give a schedule for what we're doing the rest of the week, but for today, please talk about anything you want to, while also voting on the poll, and also please feel free to speak up about any suggestions you have.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

The second suggestion for tiers sounds best, though I feel it should JUST be "High" and "Low" of each tier instead of also having a middle ground, which I feel would make too many tiers.

I don't know what we should do about Miis. I would ideally like to vote for them based on Guest XXXX, but I feel like we can't do that until that's the norm for tournaments, which would take a while to enforce. Australia and New Zealand are on the right path, now to convince the rest of the world, especially the US and Japan.

Also, Zerp , you should probably make your post be as obvious as possible (make text larger, more colorful, etc.) so we can have as many people as possible be drawn to that post and thus vote for the polling system. Also, right now if you change your vote, your new suggestion adds to the list instead of replacing your previous suggestion, though I'm not sure if you can fix that.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I've already made my thoughts on the game's balance known, so rather than repeat them, I'm going to post this here tier list I made a few days ago.

There are a few things I'm a little unsure of, like the entirety of God tier, but I'm pretty happy with it, for the most part.

 

[Tizio Random]

I think that as of now the game is pretty balance. I still would like some buffs on the lower tiered characters. My tier list is more or less like this:

This is heavily based on the results Das Koopa posts on this forum every week with some adjustments of my current thinking. Tomorrow it can be different.

From a balance standpoint I would like to see everyone brought up to A-/B+ level of viability (but also some characters in these two tiers could see some adjustments), so:

• Slightly tweeks to the A+ and some (not all) A characters, like just one move for these
• Slight buffs on one or two things for the B/B- tier characters
• Some good buffs on the C+ characters
• Help for these poor souls on the last two tiers
• Free Miis

 

[FamilyTeam]

Even as someone who loves Lucina and believes in her potential, I think 13th is a tad too optimistic for her. Marth, too.