The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

Luigi's someone I view as either being High Tier (barely) or near the top of the upper-mid tier, either way he's pretty strong, and while I think he could use a little buffs, I'm kind of cautious about it, he's got the 2nd best step dash in the game, and I think that will play a big part in making him even stronger.

Here's Luigi's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WReMNhADOd8Reft3bisRZJgMR4wHOI3z_cqmcI0W7gk/viewanalytics
Here's Cloud's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Vm815kCU5jZprPZ02

You may vote for any of these people who sadly cannot break their own limitations.


I'll vote for His Majesty, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is a bit overbearing at the moment. He's extremely good, and it's bad that he's so easy to pick up and play effectively. My suggested nerfs:

-- (optional) Decrease active frames of D-air and increase startup of N-air, though these two aerials aren't as oppressive as...
-- ...U-air: Decrease active frames and increase landing lag.
-- Decrease damage of final hit of Limit Cross Slash, which will consequently decrease its knockback, and increase its ending lag.


Voting for my newest "main", .

 

[Arthur97]

Seriously, why is his down aerial active for so long?

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don't think Cloud needs any serious nerfs, but something should definitely be done about his down air, that thing stays out for an eternity and a half.

Voting Marth.

 

[Guido65]

My suggested changes forwould be some fixes to limit as it's risk reward ratio is poorly balanced in that limit is incredibly low risk and insanely high reward and to lower his overall reward in general as it's way too high for how low the risk on a lot of his options are.

• Limit no longer grants cloud mobility buffs.
• Limit Cross Slash: intangibility removed,faf increased from 61 to 70.
• Up Air's autocancel window moved from >26 to >30 total active frames reduced from 7-25->7-20 Damage lowered by 2% on the clean hit and late hit is lowered by %2.5(12%/8.5%->%10->%6) the damage reductions would make the move much less rewarding and also lowers the moves hitstun.
• Down Air's hitbox duration is shorter 11-42->11-39.

 

[MarioMeteor]

• Limit no longer grants cloud mobility buffs.
• Limit Cross Slash: intangibility removed,faf increased from 61 to 70 damage on the last hit lowered from 10 to 8.

That would make breaking Limit more trouble than it's worth. Remove the mobility buffs and you just have a Cloud that glows blue.

Making it so that Cloud doesn't get Limit from taking damage would be better, so that you don't potentially seal your own fate by just playing the game would be a much more sensible change.

 

[Guido65]

That would make breaking Limit more trouble than it's worth. Remove the mobility buffs and you just have a Cloud that glows blue.

Making it so that Cloud doesn't get Limit from taking damage would be better, so that you don't potentially seal your own fate by just playing the game would be a much more sensible change.

Thanks for the input. I decided that LCS should keep it's kill power but the mobility buffs from limit are probably one of the reasons limit is a poorly balanced mechanic.

 

[Yoshister]

Cloud honestly only needs a few frames more frames on LCS' endlag.
He's pretty fine imo. He has (A few) obvious weaknesses that aren't exploited enough.
He decimates those who refuse to learn or don't know the MU.

Voting until we rate him.

 

[Green Zelda]

I once thought cloud was going to be a problem, and was overtuned, but as the smash 4 metagame progressed, he began to seem less and less threatening (ex: thought fullhop/autocancelled dair in the neutral was a crazy overtuned option, but now there's obvious counterplay to it)
The only things on him I would change would be the "get hit, gain limit" mechanic, and maaaaaybe the knockback growth on limit cross slash.

Voting for the hero queen!

 

[Arthur97]

Unfortunately, I think getting hit was how Limit charged in FFVII. Maybe tone down the rate.

 

[Zerp]

Personally I think Cloud's close to being fine, his Limit Break Cross Slash is a little bit crazy and his Limit charges a bit too fast from damage. Other than that, most of the problems I have with the character are because he wrecks Low-Tiers in general, but that's really more a problem with them than it is with him.

Slightly heavier.

Here's Cloud's Results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QnEehJ2LVUHWtPK3213AtYYyAKsmj5nVGyIFXajP5cw/viewanalytics
Here's Marth's Poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Gnh2h8x0J4oal8Yp1
You may vote for any of these people who wish they were as fabulous as Marth.


I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is an extremely solid character at this point, in my eyes a definite High Tier. He still has one underwhelming move that I want to see buffed, though:

+ D-air. Seriously, why does it have so much ending and landing lag for its mediocre reward?


Voting .

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh look it's trash day!!!

Anyway, I'd prefer that he be removed from the game entirely cause I hate Marth in every way, but that isn't happening so I guess a few more buffs to make him high tier and be done with it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Marth I believe is in the top half of mid tier. I think he should get all-around better frame data on his forward air. One frame less startup, less landing lag, and an angle change similar to Corrin's forward air. His down air could also be not trash, that would be nice. It's funny, the last sword character's down air was borked, but this sword character's down air is ass.

I'll vote Jigglypuff since she's already gotten a vote.

 

[Arthur97]

Oh look it's trash day!!!

Anyway, I'd prefer that he be removed from the game entirely cause I hate Marth in every way, but that isn't happening so I guess a few more buffs to make him high tier and be done with it.

And yet I got called out for hating on Corrins?

Anyway, I don't really have any issues with Marth, so I say keep him about where he is I guess.

Voting for Captain Falcon.

 

[MarioMeteor]

And yet I got called out for hating on Corrins?

Don't worry, everybody hates Corrin.

 

[L9999]

I think Marth is already good enough. Buffing Fair is a bad idea, unless you like to be walled out by a single move all the match like , or prepatch. The one move Marth needs changed for better is his trash Dair. On top of my head the only move that works for nothing particularly useful in Marth's moveset aside from can't-tip-this He-man and-so-laggy-I-cry Down Smash.

I vote the disfunctional glass cannon .

Oh look it's trash day!!!

Anyway, I'd prefer that he be removed from the game entirely cause I hate Marth in every way, but that isn't happening so I guess a few more buffs to make him high tier and be done with it.

Relax, I dislike Marth too but he isn't the bane of this game's existence.

Don't worry, everybody hates Corrin.

I don't. At least in Smash. I think his playstyle is interesting and his cheesy voice is funny. On FE he is an intolerable Mary Sue so I'll give you that.

 

[MarioMeteor]

prepatch.

Prepatch?

The one move Marth needs changed for better is his trash Dair. On top of my head the only move that works for nothing particularly useful in Marth's moveset aside from can't-tip-this He-man and-so-laggy-I-cry Down Smash.

Oh yeah, that reminds me, please make his forward smash make sense, because I swear that if I had a dollar for every time it looked like I tipped that move only for it to whiff, I'd be rich.

 

[Tizio Random]

Marth is fine, one of the best high tier or one of the bottom top tier. If you want a broken character like his Melee and Brawl incarnations this isn't the game for you.

Voting

 

[L9999]

Prepatch?

Oh yeah, that reminds me, please make his forward smash make sense, because I swear that if I had a dollar for every time it looked like I tipped that move only for it to whiff, I'd be rich.

Prepatch Sheik could wall out anyone with her huge Fair and needles that covered the entire stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFig34fN1CM
Also, this video. I know it is Melee, but it can apply to this project.

 

[Arthur97]

Oh yeah, that reminds me, please make his forward smash make sense, because I swear that if I had a dollar for every time it looked like I tipped that move only for it to whiff, I'd be rich.

I hate when that happens if I go for a punish off of a shield break. Thankfully I usually have time to try again...and probably miss again or hit the sourspot.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Marth is fine, one of the best high tier or one of the bottom top tier. If you want a broken character like his Melee and Brawl incarnations this isn't the game for you.

Voting

Marth was never broken. He was always very good, yes, but by no means was he broken. You had Fox and Meta Knight for that.

I hate when that happens if I go for a punish off of a shield break. Thankfully I usually have time to try again...and probably miss again or hit the sourspot.

There's no feeling of utter disappointment quite like breaking someone's shield and charging a forward smash that completely whiffs. It's like getting a fake lottery ticket.

 

[Alexander1583]

In my opinion: I dont think Marth needs any drastic changes. Maybe a buff to his Down Air, but thats really it.

 

[L9999]

Marth was never broken. He was always very good, yes, but by no means was he broken. You had Fox and Meta Knight for that.

There's no feeling of utter disappointment quite like breaking someone's shield and charging a forward smash that completely whiffs. It's like getting a fake lottery ticket.

? With those terrible MUs with 0 death chaingrabs?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

? With those terrible MUs with 0 death chaingrabs?

i mean, im pretty sure he meant Melee Fox

 

[MarioMeteor]

? With those terrible MUs with 0 death chaingrabs?

And don't even get me started on Melee Meta Knight, he was absolutely ridiculous!

 

[L9999]

The way it was written suggested we were talking about Brawl, I'm not psychic.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The way it was written suggested we were talking about Brawl, I'm not psychic.

Considering that I was talking about broken characters, don't you think it'd make just a little bit more sense if I were referring to Melee Fox, rather than his vastly inferior counterpart?

 

[Zerp]

I think Marth's pretty much fine as is, he doesn't need any changes imo.

Here's Marth's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WLV-v-ue6A2q-TIOr1O8JlzvzlH1b4s5vn4tiA0tjmg/viewanalytics
Here's Jigglypuff's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/gOfDoSF5xqWF3l7c2

You may vote for any of these people who have better luck than Jigglypuff.


I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the worst not-default-Mii character in the game, and for good reason: Awful range, terrible grab game, easily gimpable vertical recovery, the worst survivability paired with an insta-death with a shield break, and too much lag on her moves for them to combo well or be safe for killing. I don't want to list all the buffs she needs because that would take a while, but I'll name some:

+ Increase her weight a few units, still the lightest in the game but not by as much, and remove the insta-death on shield break. (She's probably going to die from a punish anyways, what's the point of it? Plus, we get to see her shield break animation!)
+ Decrease end lag of smash attacks. They come out quick enough and kill decently early, but they're still bad because of this.
+ Slightly increase range on several moves, namely her aerials. She can't have a good air game if she can't hit with her aerials.
+ Make one of her throws be decent at comboing and one be decent at killing. She needs some okay throws to make up for her tiny grab, but right now her grab game is on par with if not worse than Pac-Man's, which is already awful.
+ Make Rollout not leave her helpless after a successful aerial hit, make Sing do something to aerial opponents (maybe weak knockback like Mewtwo's Disable?) and not trigger counters, and decrease overall lag of both of those moves.
+ Remove the flower effect of Rest in exchange for more damage and thus knockback (optional), and make it always star/screen KO if the opponent has at least 2 stocks remaining or the match is not set to stock, and blast KO if the opponent has 1 stock remaining or the time is about to run out.


Voting for the pink puffball that isn't bottom tier, .

 

[Axel311]

Puff needs to be able to true combo into rest at kill percents in some fashion. Considering her bad grab range and bad ground speed, I don't think upthrow rest would be unreasonable at all to give her at some sort of percentage range.

I would say give her aerial speed increases but I seriously worry about making her too good at timeouts.

Maybe just give her more damage and knockback on her aerials, give her more reward for getting in.

Her weight and death on shield break needs to stay low in my opinion, that's her flavor as a character. But give her more cannon to equal her glass. She should be rewarded more when she gets in.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Well at least Jigglypuff isn't dead last. Example, don't take it too seriously.

Regardless of her decent at best combo ability, edgeguarding, Pound and Rest. Jigglypuff just has very little show.
Her recovery is predict making it easy to punish, she gets chump damage off of a grab, the lack of disjoints and priority combined with her painfully "okay" frame data on her aerials makes it hard to space, THIS, Rollout is little use if your opponent doesn't know how to punish it, Sing leaves you wide open while giving you little reward and she mostly has to rely on a read off of her Smashes or Rest to get a kill unless she get a B-air at 120 by the ledge.

Looking back, I think the reason why Jiggly's as trouble combing so much is because the devs were afraid that players would try to do combos that would confirm into rest at kill percents. So instead they just limit her combos as a whole and gave little-to-nothing in return.
Personally, I would give her more follow ups on her aerials (but make sure they don't true combo into rest at kill percents), give her some disjoints on aerials &/or more priority. Increase her run speed from 1.155 to 1.3 so she's faster then Ganon. Increase her air speed to 1.28 so it's tied with Yoshi's, give her at least some combos off of forward and back throws (Down throw could be a 50-50 rest kill confirm), allow Up-throw to kill Mario at 135% without rage & with DI, increase her weight to 71 and finally fix Rollout so you don't kill yourself for landing it, Sing so it's an actual risk-for-reward move and THIS.

With all those, I think Jigglypuff would be fairly balance and potential high-mid.

I vote

 

[Wintermelon43]

Spoiler

Jigglypuff defitenly needs buffs. Even Clefairy wants it

For example, one good buff that would be good is a kill throw and a better combo throw. She needs more though.

Edit: Never uploaded an image from the upload file before, so it may not have worked

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's no feeling of utter disappointment quite like breaking someone's shield and charging a forward smash that completely whiffs. It's like getting a fake lottery ticket.

Imagine how Roy feels. He breaks someone's shield and prepares to use Flare Blade, and yet the opponent recovers before the attack even reaches full power. It pays to keep an eye on the opponent's current damage, as that can make or break those easy KO opportunities.

 

[MarioMeteor]

, the worst not-default-Mii character in the game who's name isn't Zelda or Ganondorf .

FTFY.

Jigglypuff, boy, oh boy, where do I begin?

Forward tilt BKB increased: 8 -> 16
Up tilt KBG decreased: 120 -> 90, hitbox size increased.
Up smash active frames changed: 16-19 -> 13-16. Upper body invincibility on frames 13 - 16. FAF: 46 -> 31.
Down smash damage increased: 11% -> 14% and startup decreased by 3 frames: frame 14 -> frame 11.

Back air active frames: 12-13 -> 9-10.
Down air landing lag: 30 - 15 and final hit now meteor smashes aerial opponents weakly.
Up air startup decreased: frame 9 -> frame 7 and landing lag decreased: 15 -> 10.

Forward throw: angle lowered to semi spike trajectory.
Down throw damage decreased: 4%, 6% -> 3%, 4%. Knockback: 45 base, 100 growth -> 40 base, 80 growth.
Back throw: angle lowered.
Up throw knockback increase: 30 base, 110 growth -> 70 base, 120 growth.

Rollout: No longer causes helplessness after connecting.
Pound: FAF: 46 -> 40.
Rest: Forces Star KO.
Sing: Can be cancelled mid-animation with a roll or shield.

Essentially, this would address a few of Jigglypuff's major weaknesses: her lack of options against shields, her lack of KO options, and her horrid ground game.

Imagine how Roy feels. He breaks someone's shield and prepares to use Flare Blade, and yet the opponent recovers before the attack even reaches full power. It pays to keep an eye on the opponent's current damage, as that can make or break those easy KO opportunities.

Keep in mind that you shouldn't completely charge Flare Blade. If you time it perfectly, you can actually get a stronger version that doesn't damage Roy.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Keep in mind that you shouldn't completely charge Flare Blade. If you time it perfectly, you can actually get a stronger version that doesn't damage Roy.

Yeah I kind of noticed that on one of my Home-Run Contest runs. The timing can feel rather strict though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yeah I kind of noticed that on one of my Home-Run Contest runs. The timing can feel rather strict though.

I think it's only a one-frame window. Funnily enough, the first time I found out about it was in a Home-Run Contest, too.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I think it's only a one-frame window. Funnily enough, the first time I found out about it was in a Home-Run Contest, too.

No kidding, here's my record.
Want further proof, here.

I think Home-Run Contest is the only reason why Roy's D-tilt launches opponents forward instead of up like Melee.

 

[L9999]

How to make good? Let's fix what doesn't work.

Rollout- This move is trash but at the very least remove the "hit offstage helpless" clause so it is less bad.
Pound- Momentum from Brawl back. Way to save jumps and the return of Rising Pound. Hitbox now starts at frame 12, fixes an animation error.
Sing- No counter triggers. KB in the air would ruin ledge mixups, but there is no reason to use trash like Sing in a match with a human anyways.
Rest- Kill 10% earlier. It is so punishable on landing it is laughable, so more threat is a good thing. People get demoralized when I do PKT2 combo and they die at 45% and because Rest is more humilliating than PKT2, never understimate psicological factors!
Jab 1- jab resets again. Rest setups.
Up Tilt startup (9 -> 7). Melee hitbox. A useful ground move beides Dash Attack.
Smash Attacks- Forward Smash startup (16 -> 12). Up Smash and Down Smash restored to Melee versions.
Trash, sorry, Down Air: Startup (7 -> 5), autocancel (45 -> 40), landing lag (30 -> 22).
Up Air- FAF (45 -> 42)- Rest setup.
Back Air- Startup (12 -> 9). A better kill move/spacer.
Air Acceleration (0.08 -> 0.09). Air Speed (1.269 -> 1.32). Improved chasing and stringing.
Jump Squat (6 -> 5). Being an air base character she should have good jump squat.

There you go, easy bake high tier.

 

[Arthur97]

Flare Blade doesn't really need a full or next to full charge to KO.