The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

For Rosalina and Luma, I think Luma should be even more strong than he/she is now (yet easier to remove to counterbalance it's new strength and give the low tiers a leg to stand on) but Rosalina herself should be weaker, I've always wanted RosaLuma to be the strongest and Rosalina to be the weakest, it just makes the most sense to me.
Here's today's suggestions

1. nerf Luma, buff Rosalina
2. Make Rosalina even weaker but Luma even stronker, along with making Luma a bit easier to remove.

I like how we have the exact opposite approach to this lol.

Here's their results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1i2J6DLqG1NRg9EC7cMf6t0kN8PqiFkMoVuIg2lO0INI/viewanalytics
Here's Megaman's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/zpSzTyU05gzi5O6f1

You may vote for any of these thingies pleasant individuals.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

He's fine the way as is ini

Voting

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has shown just how viable he is recently, with ScAtt and especially Kamemushi getting huge results with him. He can zone, rack damage, and kill really well, and yet none of those factors are overwhelming (the "Kamemushi Combo" requires a grounded footstool, which is really hard to land against safe opponents). He's definitely fine as is, in my eyes a solid high tier.

Voting the bane of Brawl, .

 

[DJBor]

? (No, he's in my balanced zone. Albeit the upper end.)
And how about that tier list? You already know who it is.

 

[L9999]

? (No, he's in my balanced zone. Albeit the upper end.)
And how about that tier list? You already know who it is.

The new one? It is kinda messy but it is 2000 times better than the past one.

 

[Mega-Spider]

The only thing I would want to see Megs get a buff in is making his Crash Bomber a little more dangerous on shields, like eat them up more. I also wouldn't mind reduced ending lag on his F-Smash and D-Smash. Otherwise, he's pretty balanced overall. Excuse me while I go footstooling again.
Voting

 

[Axel311]

Megaman is fine as far as overall power but getting that much reward out of a footstool is super cheesy. And the footstool combo itself is just crazy cheesy in general in my opinion. Just seems so jank. I'd rather that be taken away and he be given a buff to some other area in exchange. Having a character's best tool be a clearly unintended by the developers footstool combo just doesn't feel right.

 

[Zerp]

I think Megaman's good as is.

Here's Megaman's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1GEhNjNW5P4GJkbmkA0o6vFbeOt-fYvoC14Hes7uLTp8/viewanalytics
Here's Meta Knight's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/fA4RYroXlUhQ497g2

You may vote for any of these borbs.

I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I think is at almost a perfect place in the meta game. His ladder combo to death no longer works on most characters, so players have to be creative with their aerial followups. MKLeo has shown the world what Meta Knight can do even without his ladder combo, defeating most notably Mr. R and Dabuz with the character. His ladder combo still works on floaties, especially Rosalina and Peach, but with the counterpick meta rising, I don't see that being a big problem. I think he's fine as is in high tier.

Voting to make DJBor happy.

 

[DJBor]

OK, here's a touchy subject.
Despite having the shortest sword out of all swordfighters, and being light and short with low air speed, the incredible attack speed and ground speed that still remains with the character gives him possibly the best overall frame data in Smash 4. And his combos are balanced in a way that they are not too hard to break out of, but if you don't try, you're taking tons of damage or even losing a stock. I get that the Meta Knight playerbase has pushed his meta to the extremes, but having recently picked up Meta Knight as the "perfect counterpart" to Villager, I know he's great- but he isn't top 10, and even if all of the top 10 were nerfed, that would not make Meta Knight unbalanced. He's what you want in a balanced character- great, but not broken.

finally gets a chance.

 

[L9999]

Megaman is fine as far as overall power but getting that much reward out of a footstool is super cheesy. And the footstool combo itself is just crazy cheesy in general in my opinion. Just seems so jank. I'd rather that be taken away and he be given a buff to some other area in exchange. Having a character's best tool be a clearly unintended by the developers footstool combo just doesn't feel right.

I bet you 3 digits they implemented footstools back in Brawl thinking it would be funny and didn't even bother testing if it had followups, and other 3 digits they didn't tested Smash 4 either despite Brawl having a lot of footstool jank (hi). Besides, would even have a single chance of clutching it out against or Bleach, sorry, without it? No, he would not. With footstool combo he gets steamrolled by those characters.

is fine, even if he invalidates a lot of the cast.

I vote the most disappointing thing since my nonexistent son, .

 

[Zerp]

Although I think his ladder combos on floaties are busted, I think Meta Knight's like Mega Man in that he's pretty much fine, I wouldn't nerf him, except for maybe the whole combo thingy but I'd have to give him something in return.

Here's Meta Knight's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17g9k7QV-Ua0pGMAiVaRfuvtXyw6qcv8igrS5aNYjSGE/viewanalytics
Here's Zelda's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/0sgl2Qut51JBUSys2

You may vote for any of these people who may or may not be cross-dressing ninjas in disguise.


I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the character who flips sides of the tier list with a simple costume change.

+ Increase walk speed (0.87 --> 0.9, tied with Olimar and Bayonetta) and run speed (1.3 --> 1.36, tied with King Dedede).
+ Decrease startup (11 --> 8) and knockback (KBG 95 --> 70) of jab so it's a better combo starter.
+ Decrease end lag of U-smash to the same as F-smash (FAF 64 --> 60).
+ Decrease end lag of D-throw so followups aren't quite as tight to land.
+ Increase duration of sweetspot of F-air, B-air, and D-air by 1 frame, and decrease their landing lag.
+ Decrease overall lag of Din's Fire, and remove its free fall. This alone would improve zoning, edgeguarding, and recovering.
+ Significantly decrease end lag of Farore's Wind (FAF 81 --> 60) so she can start aerial drifting much earlier.


Voting for Perfection Incarnate, .

 

[DJBor]

Explain why Jiggs better than Ganon and Zelda, I can't see it.

How isn't she better? She sucks less, it's really that simple. Better matchups, better frame data, better recovery, better costumes, better shades of pink, pretty much any way you can imagine. Honestly, it's Ganondorf and Zelda, it doesn't take much to be better than them. It doesn't take a genius to see that Jigglypuff is better than those two.

the character who flips sides of the tier list with a simple costume change.

TRIGGERED

...ok. Let's look at the truth here. You're telling me that a character that can KO at 60 consistently, has pretty solid air speed, deals massive damage on grab combos, has a truly nasty spike, has the longest telep- ok, you get it, I can go on and on about Zelda's strengths. But that doesn't mean she's not still sitting on the border of low tier and bottom tier. Fortunately, unlike the others, Zelda doesn't need much in terms of buffing to be viable. Here's what I gathered up after trying Zelda all those months ago-

• Farore's Wind has waaay too much endlag. Around 80 frames. Lower it to 45, because if you miss the ledge or miss the attack, she cannot drift whatsoever.
• Din's Fire should no longer put Zelda into helpless fall. The movement option will help mix up her approach, and being able to use the projectile to clear the ledge will really help her.
• Din's Fire should explode so much more faster after release- like Frame 6 or something. It's a useless move because it is easy to read.
• Phantom Slash should deal extra shield damage, and there should be a hitbox fix on the fully charged one. No explanation needed here, try the move for yourself.
• Lightning kicks... I love 'em as they are, but that landing lag / endlag when you miss is awful. And it's even worse when you land the sourspot and get punished for it. Significantly cut down the whiff lag on Fair, Bair, and Dair.
  
• Weight increase to 95. Zelda becomes just a little heavier than Sonic, which will help her in so many ways.

With these six fixes, Zelda needs no change to her slow movement. Now, she's the powerful accuracy-based sage character she was meant to be, with far less shortcomings than ever before.

Voting... right. Let's go with the other not-so-bottom-tier, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Oh, damn it, I missed Rosalina day.
Well, as for the inferior goddess, she's still by far the worst in the game. So, you know, buff her. You kinda can't help but feel sorry for Zelda, there hasn't been a Smash game yet where she hasn't sucked. Poor thing. Does Sakurai just not like Zelda?

Voting Mewtwo.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

perfection

You should be a developer. This is exactly what Zelda needs.

 

[L9999]

Din's Fire- No helpless, less overall lag, a bigger explosion, being able to explode it right after pulling it out.
Phantom- Mechanic changes. Being able to store the Phantom.
Make Fair like Lucas (frame data, hitbox placement, etc) so Zelda has an actual Foward Air.
Make Bair sourspot much stronger and sweetspot easier to hit.
Up Smash hitbox from Brawl back.
Being able to maneuver helpless with Up B sooner.
Uair lasting longer.
Slight overall mobility increase.

 

[Zerp]

Zelda stuff

I was going to put down my thoughts on Zelda and how I think would be the best way to improve her, but you put down everything I wanted (plus more) and explained it better than I would have anyway.

Does Sakurai just not like Zelda?

He apparently mained Ganondorf in Brawl, so maybe that means he really likes her?


Here's Zelda's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18GLVmwCjjYVZKtWfuP7-sucDkR8f_sC0g8YUVH9Q4Tg/viewanalytics
Here's King Dedede's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/YoOFXtX3HJQb0ctu2

You may vote for any of these imperfect beings.


I vote for .

 

[DJBor]

OK, there's no way I'm topping that Zelda explanation. Someone do better than I will please, because I don't play Dedede
All I know is that he needs a crap ton of buffs because he is almost as bad as Ganondorf at this point and has no results (despite me losing to a Dedede in the first game of pools in every tournament I have ever entered)
I'm going to try Kurogane Hammer to get more exact changes this time as well

• Air speed increase to 0.86 (yes, it's about x1.35 air speed. Luigi should have the worst air speed anyway tbh.)
• Run speed increase to 1.43 (barely faster than current Bowser Jr.)
• All aerials have lower landing lag to match Nair (15 frames)
• Make Jet Hammer great again
• Inhale is pretty awful as well... what if it was a KO throw command grab?

That doesn't seem like enough. Am I missing something?

Oh wait I have to vote. Well we've done enough low tiers. From something I saw further down... yeah, let's get controversial. I vote

 

[L9999]

DDD. What about this fat penguin that hasn't been said before?

Increased air speed (0.658→ 0.8). I really want to talk to the genius sir who nerfed it.
Inhale has reduced startup and ending lag. Less laggy, so it is a decent mixup.
Jet Hammer is so trash no amount of buffs can fix this abomination of game design.
Dash attack no longer misses at point blank.
Brawl Up Tilt and Side Tilt back.
Up Smash’s stupid sourspot removed. Fixed hitbox in relation to the animation.
Neutral Aerial can now autocancel from a short hop.
Forward Aerial deals more damage (12% → 15%).
Foward Throw now sends at a semi-spike angle.
Back Throw can now KO reliably.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the King of Dreamland...except that after his unfair nerfs, he's now the worst Kirby character and bottom 5 in the game (excluding default Miis), just barely good enough to not be bottom tier. My buff suggestions:

+ Revert every single nerf he has gotten. Nothing that was nerfed about him was overpowered except maybe his D-throw's KBG, but even still, Donkey Kong's cargo U-throw is just as crazy if not crazier than Dedede's D-throw used to be, so why nerf Dedede?
+ Further increase air speed (0.658 --> 0.8, tied with current Kirby) and run speed (1.36 --> 1.424, tied with Bowser Jr.).
+ Decrease overall lag of jab (startup frame 10 --> 8), dash attack (startup frame 26 --> 23, FAF 67 --> 60), and F-smash (startup frame 42 --> 39), the former for combos and the latter two for killing.
+ Remove sourspot of U-smash, and make its hitboxes match the animation.
+ Lower angle of F-throw (45 --> 20), and increase knockback of B-throw (KBG 79 --> 90) so they both kill or position better.
+ Decrease landing lag of F-air (30 --> 20) and overall lag of D-air (startup frame 22 --> 19, landing lag 30 --> 25).
+ Decrease startup of Inhale (17 --> 15) so his command grab is better.
+ Increase damage threshold for Gordo reflecting (3% --> 4%), make it not speed up when reflected, and make it always attach to walls (remove the RNG element).
+ For Jet Hammer, increase its knockback (KBG 66/77 --> 90), decrease end lag (FAF 77/70 --> 57/50), remove self-damage, and add super armor to the hammer swing (not the charge, there's a custom move for that)


Voting for Mr. Video Game Himself, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

He apparently mained Ganondorf in Brawl, so maybe that means he really likes her?
.

Did he really? I'll never understand Sakurai...

I vote Mewtwo.

 

[L9999]

, the King of Dreamland...except that after his unfair nerfs, he's now the worst Kirby character and bottom 5 in the game, just barely good enough to not be bottom tier.

>. He is not bottom 5.

In all seriousness, what was so hard about porting ?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

>. He is not bottom 5.

At this point in the meta game, I just wholly exclude Miis from the list because there's still controversy with which custom moves they can use (I would ideally rate them on Guest XXXX, but for some reason that's not the norm for tournaments yet), so Dedede is bottom 5 on my list. But yeah, I agree that he barely escapes bottom 5 with Guest 1111 Miis.

 

[L9999]

At this point in the meta game, I just wholly exclude Miis from the list because there's still controversy with which custom moves they can use (I would ideally rate them on Guest XXXX, but for some reason that's not the norm for tournaments yet), so Dedede is bottom 5 on my list. But yeah, I agree that he barely escapes bottom 5 with Guest 1111 Miis.

I personally rate them in 1111 even if I'm on FreeMii party. I think the regular ones are designed decently, but they were (obviously) not tested and tuned appropiately. But that topic is for another day....

I vote

 

[Arthur97]

Did he really? I'll never understand Sakurai...

I vote Mewtwo.

Well, he is pretty much the king of trolls. It actually fits pretty well.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well, he is pretty much the king of trolls. It actually fits pretty well.

This is true. He wouldn't be Sakurai if he didn't troll everybody at every given opportunity.

 

[Axel311]

My first main who I dropped over a year ago because he was so bad. He needs a lot of help, he's definitely bottom 10.

Bair - Fix the hitbox so it matches the animation. Watching DDD's hammer go through people is so frustrating.

Fair - Either reduced endlag or increased damage and knockback. Seriously, why is this so weak and so laggy compared to say, Ike's fair? If it's going to be laggy it needs to kill earlier and do more damage.

Dtilt - Fix the hitbox so it doesn't wiff up close.

Ftilt - Reduced endlag. This should be safe on shield if properly spaced. Dedede should have a safe poke in neutral other than retreating bair.

Inhale - Increase damage. I understand the endlag to prevent Dedede-cide abuse, but it needs to do more damage so the risk/reward ratio is more worth it.

Jet Hammer - This move is so bad in design I don't think there's anything they can do with it. I guess they could give it super armor frames but it would still be garbage. Unless the design changes I don't see how this move can ever be useful.

Dair - Reduced start up frames. There's no reason for it to be this laggy when the hitbox is that small.

Gordo - Increase gordo reflect threshold from 2% to 4%.

Jab - Increase hitstun on hit 1. You shouldn't be able to jab Dedede out of his jab.

Finally, his most important buff. Dedede needs a decent kill throw. It shouldn't super amazing, but he needs a reliable way to finish stocks at a reasonable percent, say ~125% at the ledge. Make one of his throws comparable in knockback to say, Wario's fthrow.

I wouldn't give him a kill confirm out of grab. That would make the character too homogenized with DK/Bowser.

I think that's a fair set of buffs which I don't think would be overpowered at all, my guess it would put him somewhere around high mid tier on the tier list.

 

[Zerp]

Did he really? I'll never understand Sakurai...

I think so, we only have one video of him playing Brawl and he was playing as Gdorf, so I always just assumed that was his main.

Anyways, onto König Nickerchen. Uh, about him, I think we could start with unnerfing him, it wasn't like he was broken or anything, the nerfs were pretty uncalled for, and after that I guess fixing up his hitboxes, removing his random sourspot on U-Smash, and reducing the lag on fair and the landing lag on Super Dedede Jump would be good, I still think he needs more than that, but unfortunately I don't have any clever ideas on how to fix the rest of him other than copy-pasting what everyone else is saying, lol.

Here's his results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1UuueO7Iu-vPMlt3NWgJyGKkhOgdlvf8Iqiih6YNN2HU/viewanalytics
Here's Mewtwo's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/M7aaIIu5Z9FvBqFY2

You may vote for any of these wholly organic*, non-GMO characters.

* may or may not contain robots.

I vote for .

 

[MarioMeteor]

In terms of viability, Mewtwo is perfect. There are, however, some things about him that are kinda absurd, namely his godlike air dodge and his Swiss Army knife forward air. I think making the former slower and the latter weaker in exchange for a down throw that doesn't suck, a grab that makes sense, and maybe a faster down smash would make Mewtwo a little bit more balanced.

Voting Lucario.

 

[L9999]

is well done. Has silly strenghts, but being featherweight and having garbage ledge options allows other characters to clutch it out. His Footstool Disable can only be done by robots like Abadango so it doesn't need nerfing. If my memory still works he doesn't directly invalidate characters that are not flawed by nature (example of being flawed by nature: ).

I vote

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the character I can finally put into the "Change but do not buff or nerf overall" category! :D

+ (optional) Decrease startup of F-smash and D-smash, though this isn't necessary because he's fine at killing.
+ Increase range of standing grab, decrease end lag of dash grab (FAF 43 --> 41), and decrease startup of pivot grab (active frames 10-11 --> 9-10). He can struggle to get grabs ATM, which really hurts him as he has a good grab game.
+ Decrease end lag of D-throw so it can true combo into things. They fixed the angle, but not this yet.
• Significantly increase weight (74 --> 82). Greatly helps his survivability (and makes sense), but he could be hit by more combos.
-- Increase startup of F-air (active frames 6-8 --> 8-10), but keep the FAF the same (38). This would keep its ability to combo once you get the first hit, but it reduces its insane ability to escape combos or shield AND kill and combo.
-- Increase end lag of Disable (FAF 48 --> 54) so the footstool combo isn't true at low percents and requires the opponent to be at a higher percent to kill.


Voting the powerup meister, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

, the character I can finally put into the "Change but do not buff or nerf overall" category! :D

+ (optional) Decrease startup of F-smash and D-smash, though this isn't necessary because he's fine at killing.
+ Increase range of standing grab, decrease end lag of dash grab (FAF 43 --> 41), and decrease startup of pivot grab (active frames 10-11 --> 9-10). He can struggle to get grabs ATM, which really hurts him as he has a good grab game.
+ Decrease end lag of D-throw so it can true combo into things. They fixed the angle, but not this yet.
• Significantly increase weight (74 --> 82). Greatly helps his survivability (and makes sense), but he could be hit by more combos.
-- Increase startup of F-air (active frames 6-8 --> 8-10), but keep the FAF the same (38). This would keep its ability to combo once you get the first hit, but it reduces its insane ability to escape combos or shield AND kill and combo.
-- Increase end lag of Disable (FAF 48 --> 54) so the footstool combo isn't true at low percents and requires the opponent to be at a higher percent to kill.


Voting the powerup meister, .

Can we not make Disable worse than it already is? I think the combo is difficult enough to perform to where it doesn't warrant nerfing.

 

[L9999]

IMO . D-Throw → B-Throw → rinse and repeat → Up Smash/ F-Throw → rinse and repeat → Fair spike/ D-Throw → footstool → Ice Block → rinse and repeat → Fair spike are easier than Nair → Footstool → disable.

 

[Deleted member]

, the character I can finally put into the "Change but do not buff or nerf overall" category! :D

+ (optional) Decrease startup of F-smash and D-smash, though this isn't necessary because he's fine at killing.
+ Increase range of standing grab, decrease end lag of dash grab (FAF 43 --> 41), and decrease startup of pivot grab (active frames 10-11 --> 9-10). He can struggle to get grabs ATM, which really hurts him as he has a good grab game.
+ Decrease end lag of D-throw so it can true combo into things. They fixed the angle, but not this yet.
• Significantly increase weight (74 --> 82). Greatly helps his survivability (and makes sense), but he could be hit by more combos.
-- Increase startup of F-air (active frames 6-8 --> 8-10), but keep the FAF the same (38). This would keep its ability to combo once you get the first hit, but it reduces its insane ability to escape combos or shield AND kill and combo.
-- Increase end lag of Disable (FAF 48 --> 54) so the footstool combo isn't true at low percents and requires the opponent to be at a higher percent to kill.


Voting the powerup meister, .

Mewtwo getting a combo throw when he has dtilt or the significant weight increase you suggested would be absolutely ****ing stupid.

He doesn't need any nerfs to fair or Disable, and dsmash is already fine as is. I'd accept a knockback buff to fsmash since it's outclassed by usmash and dsmash, being laggier and having worse range than both, and an increase to grab range. Nothing else. Even then, Mewtwo would be fine without any changes at all.

 

[DJBor]

OH HERE WE GO AGAI-
nah, just kidding. Some of you probably know I used to be a very active Mewtwo player. Then... everything changed when the Sakurai nation attacked. Suddenly Mewtwo became fast. Too fast, in fact, for me to handle. So I had to drop him. But that change did something to Mewtwo- he suddenly became over the top on speed alone. Weight buff? Great buff. Fairs? Fine. Nair hitbox increase? The move really did need it. But that speed buff was totally unnecessary and pushed him over the top. Revert the speed buff and Mewtwo joins the balanced gang. And maybe I could pick him up again.
also I got rekt by a mewtwo player the other day because I forgot wii U had 7 frames of extra input lag and my Bayo counters were too late. Still salty
My vote... is .

 

[Zerp]

I think Mewtwo's good as is, only thing I'd consider nerfing is his Footstool combo, but even then I'd like to at least let one person with the technical skill to consistently perform it win a tourney for free before nerfing it.

nerf F-air and infinite combo, buff weight and grab game

Here's Mewtwo's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1G4HEvymirnejRQTuAaBRSgXJxFnmkRnUUllgEtE4sOQ/viewanalytics
Here's Lucario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/3L7vNR54IHLwmrOl1

You may vote for any of these characters who aren't AURA!!!1111!!!! addicts.

I vote for .

 

[DJBor]

He's balanced. I always thought Lucario was awful but does that matter when he's getting results?
Voting because I saw it earlier

 

[MarioMeteor]

I've been seeing a lot more Lucario recently then before, which is starting to make me question if he's better than I give him credit for.

Nonetheless, his frame data is all kinds of trash, and if I could change anything about him, it would be that. Maybe slightly reducing the knockback on his attacks at High/Max Aura to stop him from getting too ridiculous would be a good idea, too.
Edit: Oh yeah, and fix Extreme Speed, cause that **** is broken, and not in a good way.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I've recently realized that 's Aura mechanic is fine as is (I previously wanted the Aura effect to not be quite as strong, but that would probably be a nerf overall). However, he still needs small buffs to two moves before I'm happy with him:

+ Decrease landing lag of Extreme Speed, and make the head bonking not happen nearly as often.
+ Decrease startup of Double Team's attack (AF 28- --> 22-, FAF 61 --> 55).


Voting the shorter, redder, and more viable brother, .