The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L9999]

Time to talk about my new FG disrespect character.

Nosferatu: This move is complete trash.
1) The startup and endlag. They are overkill. Cut those frames down.
2) Reduce the respawn time. Only 4 uses, risky, and tales a 1000 years to respawn. Should be on line with Arcfire.
3) REMOVE HELPLESS IN THE AIR. IT IS UNNECESARY.

The other trash move Robin has is Dair. It is complete trash as well. Make it worth of something.

Them, for icing in the cake, a little boost in run speed so she can get grabs out of Arcthunder/Fairs from Arcfire easier.

I vote no one's favorite character,

 

[DJBor]

I'm fine with
is balanced... but the only balanced character I want a change to. Something is still off-putting about Robin's grab. I don't know what to fix, but it should get that fix. Then he'd really be placed in the balanced squad.
Dair is great by the way, I get spikes on the daily.
Nosferatu needs one fix- you can no longer mash out of it. That's a full equivalent of 30 damage, totally worth all of the downsides. Also how about the amazing KBG on it's book throw?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Just gonna do 2 relatively simple changes. Make Robin the same speed as Ganon or Puff, and give tomes slightly more uses. Ok not just to, get rid of the nosferatu helplessness.

Voting

 

[Zerp]

I feel like Robin's pretty close to being fine, if they buff Dair, Nosferatu, and change his grab I think he'd be pretty well off, not that he isn't already. I think that's what they should do if there's anymore patches (really unlikely, by the way), although I'd prefer if Robin was low priority.

Grab is messed up and needs a fix.

Here's Robin's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XkCrPaJD0TWO2MzZo5D95NpvejIpU8QN8C0YkUs1Rmo/viewanalytics
Here's Diddy Kong's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/FhObNsv9gacxbmQ73
Here's the fellows you can vote for:


I'm voting for , because he's the seventh best character on the 4BR tier list, it only makes sense he'd go right after Diddy.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I think Diddy is fine, maybe nerf dtilt but then buff dash attack and/or Nair

Votingjust so I can witness the salty tears of saying nerf spin dash cancel

 

[L9999]

goes 7:3 against a lot of the cast, but I think making those characters better would make them more favors than making Diddy worse. Like, cool, X no longer has a 3:7 against Diddy, still has 3:7 against etc....
"But EL NAIN TAUSEND NAIN JANDRED NAININAIN, Diddy Fair/Dtilt/Banana is cheap!" I take those moves any day over Hoo-hah-hah. Like I said, if we make other characters better, they have more options to deal with those moves.
Voting everyone's favorite camp2win character .

 

[Frihetsanka]

Let me see if I understood the questions correctly:

"How strongly do you think HOO HAH needs to be nerfed?" = Are you sure he should be nerfed?

"How badly do you want the Didz to get nerfed?" = How much should he get nerfed?

Perhaps you should've phrased the second question "How badly should the Didz get nerfed"?

 

[DJBor]

Diddy kong... the result of a few broken tactics. I want all of the top 10 nerfed by the way.
Fortunately, I think Diddy is not #1 and that's something I stand by heavily. So here's the 3 or so things that make him OP and should all be nerfed if the chance arises.

• Stop saying that down tilt is ok, because it's not. Increase KBG greatly. I'm fine with low percent combos, but the high percent ones are not OK. Simply makes Diddy too safe.
  
• Remove intangibility on Monkey Flip. This is something I've wanted since the start, and it's yet another thing making Diddy so safe.
  
• Reduce Diddy's item toss strength (yes, this is a constant that can be changed!) The Banana flies so fast, here's a way to read against it.
  
• (110% OPTIONAL) Reduce the speed of grabs by 2 frames each. Diddy's frame 6 grab feels like frame 1 because of its animation properties, and Diddy can appear to grab people out of their animations. Not cool.

Voting again... we need this topic to be discussed

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is almost a perfectly balanced top tier character, but he still has one move that's too good:

-- D-tilt. There's no reason Diddy needs a tool this good. It's ridiculously safe against almost everyone, it can combo into itself at low-mid percents and into all of his good kill moves at their respective percents, and to top it all off, he already has Banana Peel to do these things, he doesn't need two tools that good. I don't understand why they decreased the KBG of the move, as that just made it even better. Greatly increase its knockback (BKB 15 --> 25, KBG 75 --> 120) so it can't combo into smash attacks at their kill percents, only aerials.


Voting for the brother that didn't get his own year, .

 

[Zerp]

Let me see if I understood the questions correctly:

"How strongly do you think HOO HAH (Diddy Kong) needs to be nerfed?" = Are you sure he should be nerfed?
"How badly do you want the Didz (Diddy Kong) to get nerfed?" = How much should he get nerfed?

The first one's asking how much you think Diddy Kong should get nerfed, while the second one is asking how badly/much you want the character to get nerfed, I'm treating what someone wants and what someone thinks should happen as two different things, sorry if it's confusing, my wording of things isn't the best.

I changed what the poll says on the nerf page to hopefully make it easier to understand, I'm sorry that my wording was confusing.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

No character needs nerfs imho. If Diddy got nerfs,it should only be to his dtilt and like I said buff dash attack or Nair but no other nerfs like I said.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Last time I said that Diddy was okay, but that was because I didn't realize just how stupid his down tilt was. Seriously, why does he have that move? Jigglypuff would kill for a down tilt that good... I feel like Banana should get nerfed, too, but I don't know how.

To shorten, increase down tilt's ending lag and/or knockback, and maybe make Banana's pulling animation longer.

I guess I'll vote Mario, because main bias.

 

[Zerp]

That down-tilt of his either needs to go or get tweaked, it's more than a little ridiculous.

Here's Diddy Kong's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XqouFML3eXX8rWrGTIf63otpHm3Q72dWr3RhwyszjRk/viewanalytics
Here's Mario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/7a2K7taYUMJyUFaS2

Here's the strange people who don't eat pasta for breakfast that you can vote for:


I vote for .

 

[DJBor]

Get 'em outta 'ere!
I really hate how safe Mario is, and how many polarizing matchups he has. Sure, he loses pretty bad to disjoints, and doesn't have much in the speed department, but all of his moves are sooo fast and safe! And on top of that, his combos are unbelievable compared to the rest of the cast. I place Mario 3rd on my tier list, and for good reason.

• Major KBG increase on Down throw (90 > 135)
• Up smash intangibility? Fine, but why is it so safe? FAF increase (40 > 50)
• Up tilt BKB increase (28 > 40)
• Up air BKB increase (10 > 40), compensation KBG decrease (135 > 90)
  
• Cape startup increase (12 > 16) (this also changes the reflect frames to 10-24)

Perhaps I should go into more detail on the specifics of each change.
The goal is not to ruin Mario. The goal is to make a Mario that is in line with the balanced high tier (for example: Pikachu, Toon Link, Marth) These buffs do not remove combos, they make them shorter (now it's one up tilt and two up airs, below about 30% off a down throw. Down throw fair happens at a lower percent as well). Up smash is incredibly safe as is, so adding 10 frames more endlag will balance this move just fine. The cape nerf makes Mario's incredibly dominant matchups a little less dominant. He can still flip people and deny recovery, but now it requires timing.
I vote for the other brother that's not the other brother, .

 

[FamilyTeam]

Honestly, those aren't very good changes at all. Mario thrives on combos and taking them away isn't really gonna make him much like Smash 4 Mario. Take away the Up Tilt to Up Air strings and all you're doing is ruining the character, not at all fixing him.

 

[L9999]

I really don't know how to make Mario less obnoxious without changing what makes him good. Maybe nerfing the end lag in his Smash attacks so they can be easier to punish?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

might seem quite simple, but he has so many good tools that he's top five in the game, a definite top tier. I honestly think he only needs one change:

• Make the last hit of D-air come out three frames faster, but keep the FAF the same. This buffs the move by making it impossible to air dodge out of the final hit, but nerfs it by increasing the end lag so it's not quite as crazy for comboing, which should hopefully balance each other out.

If we're gonna be really picky and give him nerfs for his "overwhelming" moves (which I don't think is necessary), they would be:

-- Increase startup and endlag of U-smash by a few frames. For how safe, ranged, and powerful it is, it probably doesn't need to be practically lagless as well.
-- Increase BKB of U-tilt so it can only combo into itself twice (or maybe three times on fast fallers).


Voting for him after spending ten to fifteen years in college just to fall down the tier list, .

 

[FamilyTeam]

-- Increase BKB of U-tilt so it can only combo into itself twice (or maybe three times on fast fallers).

Yeah that's the thing.
It already does that.
Most characters stop being true comboed by his Up Tilts after something like the 3rd hit worst case scenario. It's hard to get out of it, but if you're smart, you often just get out of it in the second hit, even.

 

[Green Zelda]

Only change mario needs imo is a speed buff to the last hit of dair. Characters like luigi and especially bayo can escape it, which gets really annoying.

Voting for !

 

[MarioMeteor]

Fix his down air so that it's not punishable on hit.

I wouldn't mind if up smash got made a little slower in return for down smash being stronger.

Or just do what they've been doing since 1.04 and not change him at all.

I vote Doc, since there's really no use in voting for anyone else.

 

[Zerp]

I think Mario's fine as is honestly, although I wouldn't be upset at all if he was nerfed either.

make D-air connect into itself reliably, but slightly increase its endlag to compensate

Here's Mario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1E29CYSfVWIhWvVioK4_feD2t_ILlc4QHZRLkcpBN5wg/viewanalytics
Here's Doctor Mario's Poll: https://goo.gl/forms/2Oi4JOY5HUIuaAY83
Here's a list of characters that you can vote for and have a higher chance of being a real Doctor than Dr. Mario.


I vote for .

 

[L9999]

Why was coded in the game?

· Dr. Mariodashesfaster (1.3 → 1.5).

· Mega-Vitamins IASA now frame 43.

· Super Sheet deals more damage (7.84% → 10%/12%).

· Super Jump Punch has slightly increased recovery distance.

· Dr. Tornadodeals more damage (8% → 16%/14%). Dr. Tornado travels more distance.

· Neutral Attack deals more damage (8.96% → 13%).

· Down Aerial can now autocancel in a short hop and has reduced landing lag (21→ 16).

· Back Throw has increased knockback (70 base/60 growth → 80/72).

Un-nerfs, Mario will still be better. I vote the most disappointing character of all time,

 

[DJBor]

Why the heck did Mario think it was worth it to clone himself and send the clone to medical school? Who paid? I guess Sakurai did.
Dr. Mario is in the lowest of low tier. Some may even say bottom tier. Fortunately, I have an amazing solution to the problem by only making changes to 3 moves. (yes, this one has as much thought put into it as Zelda's, it might be as good but idk)

• The end of down special now pops up Dr. Mario a little bit. (not much, just enough for the next change to make a difference.)
  
• Down special now has VERY reduced FAF (75 > 45) Thus, you can now combo directly out of it (Super Jump Punch anyone?)
  
• Down special now ACTUALLY connects, instead of most characters falling out of it.
• When using Super Sheet in the air, the forward propulsion it produces is increased so that the airspeed boost is more significant.
  
• Weight increased to 103.

This keeps Dr. Mario's individual moves and tricks the same, but gives him an actual recovery, and more weight than Mario to even the playing field between the two. (paired with the nerfs to mario, of course)

Since Bayo is in my balanced group, I'm going to have to go with her long lost cousin .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, on the other hand, was unfairly made objectively worse than his plumber counterpart.

+ Somewhat increase weight so he makes up for his low mobility and the reason for him being so slow makes sense.
+ Change the angle of U-smash so it actually, you know, kills off the top. He doesn't need all three smashes to kill off the side, and in fact he currently has no moves that kill off the top decently.
+ Increase knockback of B-throw so he has a good kill throw.
+ Increase hit stun of U-air. This would let it be less punishable at early percents and combo at later percents.
+ Decrease startup and end lag of D-air, which is currently close to useless because of its lag.
+ Somewhat increase distance of Doctor Tornado so it's better for recovery.

Not too many changes, but they would make him a successfully "tanky" Mario instead of just a sluggish, worse Mario.

Voting for the bird who logically prefers the air, .


EDIT: Also, Zerp , the poll is broken.

 

[Zerp]

EDIT: Also, Zerp , the poll is broken.

Wow, I just fixed it but I can't believe I missed something that glaring, sorry about that guys.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Doc is very obviously worse than the Mario who didn't finish college in just about every way. That said, I do that he's a grossly underrated potential low-mid tier character. But, that's still not very good, so here's what I'd change:

• Weight increased to 101. If they're going to treat him like a heavy, make him a heavy.
• Increase his running speed to around Luigi's, and his air speed to Mii Gunner's.
• Round the damage of all his attacks up to a round number.
• Increase the damage of his neutral air so that the sweetspot is actually rewarding.
• Slightly decrease Doc Punch's startup, and give it electric properties to make it safer on shield.
• Decrease down air's startup and make it autocancel.
• Raise up air's angle and its hitstun as well.
• Either make Megavitamins more damaging or make them faster.
• Decrease the ending lag of Dr. Tornado and increase the rehit rate so that enemies can't fall out.
• Increase Super Jump Punch's distance.
• Decrease down throw's knockback.
• Remove his yellow costume because that **** is hideous.

 

[Zerp]

Sorry about this being slightly later than normal.

Here's Dr. Mario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/13HbUTHVW2wBjkDjBnmAEmagA1aMoD-SIMbjZG4HLZCk/viewanalytics
Here's Falco's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/4OivIDJaEeyKq5t62

Here's a list of characters that you can vote for that are not birds... probably.
( is maybe a bird, technically?)

I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, I guess it's your turn to be inferior to Fox after Brawl happened...

+ Somewhat increase run speed and air speed, the former because it's canon and the latter because he prefers the air, and both would help him immensely.
+ (optional) Decrease end lag of dash attack so it can combo better.
+ Decrease startup of F-smash. For comparison, Fox has an amazing U-smash and a decent F-smash, whereas Falco should have the better F-smash, but it's so slow that it's not that good.
+ Make F-air and especially N-air connect better, whether by reducing SDI multiplier or whatever.
+ Slightly decrease startup of D-air. It's currently pitifully laggy for its mediocre power and inconsistent spike hitbox.
+ Somewhat decrease lag of lasers, not to Melee or Brawl status, but at least something to help his neutral game.
+ Greatly increase knockback of Fire Bird so it isn't entirely outclassed by Fire Fox.
+ (optional) Make Echo Reflector stall him in the air somewhat.


has a bird with him, so I guess I'll vote for him.

 

[DJBor]

First of all, voting for because THE STYLE
I do think is bottom tier, and trying to think of what changes to make is challenging, but here's a pretty close estimate.

• Neutral special needs better properties... I'd rather not deal with 48 frames of endlag for a 3-damage projectile with 2 BKB. Lower FAF (59>39), and increase damage (3>4)
  
• Dair startup decreased (16>10)
• Fair FAF decrease (50>40) and landing lag decrease (25>18)
  
• Up special charges faster (44 frames > 35 frames)
• Up smash still doesn't work quite right, even after multiple improvements!!! Get it right Namco!
• Air speed raised to 0.98
• Weight increased to 86 (seriously, why so light?)

 

[Zerp]

Falco's really bad imo, he needs some serious help, although honestly, I'm not sure exactly how to fix him up other than just decreasing lag on where it's generally unneeded.

• Weight increased to 86 (seriously, why so light?)

Because he's a real feather-weight

Here's Falco's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1cznsaAznQSpMoI1tPKOBfC_yko1opjQQtwWiw1WnEU0/viewanalytics
Here's Bayonetta's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/JdgqN1o0XRmErnKz1

You can vote for any of these characters that have gotten amiibo, yep that's right, you can't vote Corrin today
()

I vote for... well, I would have voted for Corrin but I guess I'll vote for Yoshi instead.

 

[L9999]

was nerfed hard already, and I knew she wouldn't drop a single inch in viability. Her recovery is almost impossible to gimp because it has 8000 mixups and huge hitboxes, her followups are insane, Witch Time is the best clutch, she can gimp anyone she desires with no effort at all, Witch Twist is Witch Twist, she can camp2win, and has a lot of 7:3s. Yeah, she should be leaved alone.

I vote the most overrated Pokemon of all time .

 

[Arthur97]

was nerfed hard already, and I knew she wouldn't drop a single inch in viability. Her recovery is almost impossible to gimp because it has 8000 mixups and huge hitboxes, her followups are insane, Witch Time is the best clutch, she can gimp anyone she desires with no effort at all, Witch Twist is Witch Twist, she can camp2win, and has a lot of 7:3s. Yeah, she should be leaved alone.

I vote the most overrated Pokemon of all time .

Really, because you seem to have described an overpowered character?

 

[L9999]

Really, because you seem to have described an overpowered character?

I stand by the belief that non top tiers should be buffed not only to make their weaknesses less terrible, but to have options against top tiers.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I stand by the belief that non top tiers should be buffed not only to make their weaknesses less terrible, but to have options against top tiers.

A problem with this approach is that some characters might be really good against certain characters already, so buffing them too much might make those matchups even worse. In other words, buffing lower tiers to make them competitive against certain top tiers might make them too strong against other matchups. Ideally they should nerf some top tiers and buff some other characters, I think, which is what they have been doing.

 

[vertime]

I'll play along too, lets give a good buff to the king of darkness (yes I'm bias)
I'm mulling over what I'd add and thus far I've decided on the following

+Gerudo Dragon (Or Flame Choke) becomes untechable. Lets make it so people fear Ganon's advance.

+Remove Warlock Punch. Replace with Dead Man's Volley. Add to his canon, give him a projectile, force approach to give him a leg up in matchups against people with a billion projectiles. Though I don't think DMV should do much. Perhaps only 4% and slight knockback. Enough to be annoying, but not enough to make it ridiculous. Perhaps even make it shoot diagonally/downwards when in the air, slightly lowering it's capability on ground but making it safer to attempt gimps.

+Air Gerudo Dragon doesn't grab and pull them back slightly (so from-ledge ganoncides don't happen) but instead you maintain your momentum. So you could set up a combo that's Dtilt > Airdodge read > SideB > Carried offstage. Obviously I wouldn't give him the momentum of a thousand jet fighters, maybe make it so that if you're near the ledge and he is centre stage, a SideB in the air will carry you offstage (if that made sense).
Also air Gerudo should be techable but you get super armour on the advance.

+Dark Dive (or UpB) Now sends the opponent diagonally downwards. Has no rebound on surface and is techable.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is fine as is. She has huge strengths, including crazy damage racking, safe and far-traveling recovery, and Witch Time, but that's balanced out by her subpar neutral game and few amazing kill options. She's quite strong but not overpowered, which is how all characters should be.

Voting for Mr. CAN-Do, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Bayonetta is at a perfect level of viability, and I think she needs no further buffs or nerfs.

I vote Ryu.

 

[vertime]

I vote Ryu.

Ooh, Ryu, interesting. I'd like to know your reasons for that, if you don't mind.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Ooh, Ryu, interesting. I'd like to know your reasons for that, if you don't mind.

His reason for voting Ryu? Probably because he wants to talk about Ryu!


Also Bayo is fine

Voting cause screw the rules

 

[Zerp]

I personally think Bayonetta's fine right now, although, honestly, not right now, but I can see her developing into a actual problem in the future if she keeps on developing. Her kit's just so good, almost too good.

Voting cause screw the rules

Here's Bayonetta's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1BsJMPjbB2wnUjG4pEumTYpoMvfo-C4GZLtscD8fpKhQ/viewanalytics

And since everyone had one vote today, it came to RNG and the winner is the world's most overrated pokemon, I mean Charizard, here's his poll: https://goo.gl/forms/9qETr1AmMol09Kem2

You can vote for any of these creatures that aren't Pokemon, and no, Pikachu and Greninja aren't pokemon, one's a rat and the other's a frog person./s


I vote for .