The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[DJBor]

Interesting ideas, Feelicks. Personally, I think her grab game is fine. It's those stupid tilts that just throw me off. I consider simply landing an up tilt a style move. Also, this buff list move-wise is pretty well-accepted, from what I read on SmashBoards. Tilts, dsmash, autoreticle, and counter.

• Forward tilt now deals a total of 14 damage and hits 4 times, with decreased lag. (multihits on frames 9, 17, 25, and 33, FAF now 49)
  
• Down tilt gets a startup decrease. (14>7)
  
• Up tilt multihits faster. What would be awesome is if it got increased KBG and became a KO option, but that isn't necessary.
  
• Autoreticle stays locked on to the target, following them while firing.
• Down smash FAF very decreased (72>55), and has accurate tipper hitboxes.

(This last buff is so complex that it needs to be separated from the others. Ready to see just how bad this move is?)

• Counter now activates much earlier (10-31>5-31).
• Counter now has decreased FAF (71>61)
• After landing, Counter has decreased FAF as well (56>36) This matches Marth.
  
• There is no longer a tipper hitbox on the attack. BKB and KBG are always 40 and 75 respectively.

 

[TDK]

Palutena is interesting because she's a solid mid-tier character even though most of her moves are really bad or even the worst of their kind (All 3 tilts, Fsmash and Dsmash, 3 of her specials are all next to useless), leading to a polarizing gameplan that relies on keeping her opponents out with aerials and barely touching the ground. If we were to buff her ground game too much, she'd be better, but if you overbuff it she's too good. but buffing her ground game and nerfing her air game fundamentally changes how she plays, thus making her a different character overall. Might as well call her "Talupena" at that point.

Spoiler: TDK-approved changelist

- Up Throw KBG increased: 60 -> 65
- Jab 1 Active frames: 8-10 -> 5-7 (Jab Cancel stuff, gives her a decent "get off me" option)
- Autoreticle Damage increased: 2.9 -> 3.4 (Make the move actually worth landing)
- Reflect Startup Decreased: 8 -> 6
- Counter Activation: 10-31 -> 7-31
- Counter FAF decreased: 71 -> 61
- Counter No longer has a tipper hitbox and instead has the same BKB/KBG throughout: 40/75
- Forward Tilt Active Frames: 17-24/25-39 -> 15-22/23-37
- Forward Tilt FAF Decreased: 68 -> 60
- Down Tilt BKB Decreased: 40/38 -> 35/33
- Down Tilt FAF Decreased: 40 -> 35

So essentially, I tried to make her moveset more rewarding to hit or actually functional without fundamentally changing the character or making her ground game too rewarding or fast, because over-buffing is a problem and I don't agree with making every character overpowered to balance them all out. These buffs make her specials and tilt have some sort of actual purpose, hopefully. Not familiar with Palutena that much either, so if you guys want to critique my changelist I'd appreciate that.

Let's talk next.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has recently shown herself to be scary in the right hands, definitely not low tier like we once thought. However, with so many bad moves, I find it hard to put her higher than lower mid tier.

• Make F-tilt more powerful and multi-hitting, decrease startup of U-tilt, and decrease end lag of D-tilt. They're currently all quite bad, and changing them in this way would make them all useful and unique from each other in their uses.
• Slightly decrease startup and end lag of F-smash and D-smash. They have enough range and power, but with how laggy they are, they're almost useless.
• (optional) Increase damage and decrease knockback of N-air, so the move does more damage and has higher hitstun for better combos.
• Decrease end lag of D-air. I'm fine with it being precise and not too strong, but its high end lag is just adding insult to injury.
• Make Autoreticle stay locked onto its target so it can actually do its job.
• (optional) Decrease end lag of Reflect so it's safer to miss.
• Increase knockback of Counter. Please. Being less powerful should never be a disadvantage of any counter, especially the counter of a character who already has lots of terrible moves.

Voting for , whose name is much easier to misspell than Palutena's.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Her default specials suck really hard, as do her tilts and her specials, to be honest.

Gee, this sure is reminding me of another floaty female lightweight...

Can we vote for another pink pre-evolved Pokémon?

 

[Zerp]

I know it isn't vital to her gameplan, but I'd really appreciate it if Autoreticle got buffed, that move is just so trash. Other than that, I'd like to see her atrocious Counter, F-smash, and tilts upgraded .

Voting for , whose name is much easier to misspell than Palutena's.

What are you talking about? Shike's name is very easy to spell, I don't think I've ever seen anyone misspell Shiek's name before...

Can we vote for another pink pre-evolved Pokémon?

Obviously!

Here's Palutena's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1LX7oxX679KxgWqGFjprWSe2DqpnvaL8k3tctSKTRif4/viewanalytics
Here's Sheik's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/ryole4wl8hFCpoEV2

You can vote for any of these people whose names are also nowhere near as hard to not make a typo with.
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

Also, we can now vote for what's technically the first pre-evolved (and pink) Pokemon, which is definitely who MarioMeteor wanted.

I vote for .

 

[DJBor]

I vote , the lowest tier character in the game imo. Its only move can't even deal damage... it just drops a CD
My actual vote is Yoshi.

As for ... well obviously she's in my Top 10. But the nerf I want on her is not the average nerf. You may or may not agree with this, but:

• Neutral air BKB increased (20>30)
• Forward tilt BKB increased (20>30)
• Up tilt BKB increased (20>30)
  
• Intangibility is completely removed on Vanish, but the power nerf is reverted.

That's really it. Weakening (not removing...) tilt combos and making Vanish not quite as safe but more of a volatile KO mixup makes Sheik balanced with the rest of high and upper-mid tier.

 

[L9999]

I don't think nerfing Sheik's tilts is warranted. It is what defines the character (combos). Besides, her tilts were already nerfed from Brawl.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

after all her nerfs is still a very threatening character, and honestly I would tweak her just a tiny bit more:

• Remove intangibility of Vanish, but revert its knockback nerf. This would make it actually possible for every character to try to punish it, but make it easier for missing the punish.
• Make Bouncing Fish not able to kick quite as early, but somewhat revert its power nerf as well. Now you can't true combo into it as well, but it's more rewarding if you find a way to do so or you read an opponent's action.

And with those two changes, Sheik is perfectly balanced. Now her kill options are a bit stronger, but you have to be more creative to land them, which is good for a character who moves, racks damage, and recovers well. These sound like nerfs on paper, but I feel like the positives compensate and possibly even outweigh the negatives for skilled players.


Voting for the character that, contrary to popular belief, has much more representation than just iStudying, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Forward air ending lag increased (35 - > 39) and landing lag increased (10 frames -> 15 frames).

Even after her nerfs, Sheik is still easily one of the best characters in the game. I decided to just go after her forward air because that move is godlike and is probably most of the reason why Sheik is as good as she is.

 

[Zerp]

I don't think Sheik really requires much changing, if at all, the most I'd do is remove her intangibility on Up-B because it's a bit ridiculous.

Make Vanish and Bouncing Fish less safe, but mostly revert their power nerfs

Here's Sheik's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Pecx5wXWbSTY7YiWsAiighkBnyOkZ341acrWYcJlFTM/viewanalytics
Here's Yoshi's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/z2JndNdJJHxqQSX02

You can vote for any of these people who may or may not be part of the game with the world's most horrid soundtrack featuring kazoos, kazoos, and more kazoos.
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)
I vote for again.

Also, tomorrow's update will probably be late, I'll try to get it up by a normalish hour but please don't expect it to be.

 

[DJBor]

Did someone say kazoo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXEJeHBYPW8
I vote
is weird because he's totally balanced, but nobody uses him. Seriously, does Yoshi need any buffs or nerfs? There was even a time that Yoshi was the top-est of top tiers on most lists that I saw. Why is nobody using this character?

 

[L9999]

Did someone say kazoo? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXEJeHBYPW8
I vote
is weird because he's totally balanced, but nobody uses him. Seriously, does Yoshi need any buffs or nerfs? There was even a time that Yoshi was the top-est of top tiers on most lists that I saw. Why is nobody using this character?

Because number 1, people figures out the MU. Number 2, people really didn't know the game at all. Number 3, he is draining to play. Number 4, he has crippling weaknesses. His options exist don't get me wrong , but if you commit to camp2win and never attempt anything stupid, Yoshi can't kill. His best KO option, jab Up Smash is unreliable, Uair has a tiny hitbox, Smashes are all laggy, Foward Air is not hard to dodge, Nair gets stale super fast. Also, grab game. It is garbage. Grab is slow and short ranged, and his throws don't do anything worthwhile. Make Yoshi's grab better and that alone would solve a lot of things. I vote Mew.

after all her nerfs is still a very threatening character, and honestly I would tweak her just a tiny bit more:

• Remove intangibility of Vanish, but revert its knockback nerf. This would make it actually possible for every character to try to punish it, but make it easier for missing the punish.
• Make Bouncing Fish not able to kick as early, but somewhat revert its power nerf as well. Now you can't true combo into it as well, but it's more rewarding if you find a way to do so or you read an opponent's action.

And with those two changes, Sheik is perfectly balanced. Now her kill options are a bit stronger, but you have to be more creative to land them, which is good for a character who moves, racks damage, and recovers well. These sound like nerfs on paper, but I feel like the positives compensate and possibly even outweigh the negatives for skilled players.


Voting for the character that, contrary to popular belief, has much more representation than just iStudying, .

I know we are not talking about Sheik here, but I have to disagree with Bouncing Fish here. It's KO power is really good, qnd Sheik has a lot killer combos into it. That is what defines Sheik really. Racks damage, kills with a elaborate combo. If you made Bouncing Fish slower, you would remove her best combo finisher and KO option. She would rely on reads, and she can't afford reads because she is made out paper maché.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is good as is. He'll stay in high mid tier at best until he gets amazing results, but I don't want to buff him at all because I know how great his theory is, with tons of moves that are really fast and quite useful. If I were to buff him, I would make his grab faster, but that's it.

Voting for , who has one of the best soundtracks featuring electric guitars, electric guitars, and more electric guitars.

I know we are not talking about Sheik here, but I have to disagree with Bouncing Fish here. It's KO power is really good, qnd Sheik has a lot killer combos into it. That is what defines Sheik really. Racks damage, kills with a elaborate combo. If you made Bouncing Fish slower, you would remove her best combo finisher and KO option. She would rely on reads, and she can't afford reads because she is made out paper maché.

But that last part is the whole point. Sheik needs some sort of obvious flaw to make up for her insanely safe damage racking, approaching, and recovery. The whole point of her kill moves being weakened in past patches is that she would not be able to kill as well to accentuate a major weakness, but I feel like that was the wrong way to do it. If the changes that I suggested applied, then she would be able to kill earlier, but you would have to be more strategic to land the killing blow. This would make her kill options more based on your ability to read the opponent rather than guaranteed setups, which are over the top for a character as safe as she is. This, I feel, is why her U-smash is precise but powerful, and I love how that move was designed. She should have to commit for a kill option, because at the moment she hardly has to commit for anything else due to how safe she is.

 

[Zerp]

Yaaaaayyyyy, I'mmm lllaaaaattttteeeeeee.

I think Yoshi's perfectly fine as is.

Yoshi's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1TO8xF9H2rXnm7GUbghfXVm1bmoeTFqsgLPllNUDQkJI/viewanalytics
Captain Falcon's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/3eNqcBrZt77eeq942

(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

Also, by any chance, would anyone like to take over (make polls and stuff) for about 5 days? I'm currently on vacation in Scotland and would like to spend as much time with my family as possible but I'm fine if nobody wants to, you'll just be getting late updates for a week.

 

[L9999]

But that last part is the whole point. Sheik needs some sort of obvious flaw to make up for her insanely safe damage racking, approaching, and recovery. The whole point of her kill moves being weakened in past patches is that she would not be able to kill as well to accentuate a major weakness, but I feel like that was the wrong way to do it. If the changes that I suggested applied, then she would be able to kill earlier, but you would have to be more strategic to land the killing blow. This would make her kill options more based on your ability to read the opponent rather than guaranteed setups, which are over the top for a character as safe as she is. This, I feel, is why her U-smash is precise but powerful, and I love how that move was designed. She should have to commit for a kill option, because at the moment she hardly has to commit for anything else due to how safe she is.

Her obvious flaw is lack of raw power and that she cannot afford any single mistake. Up Air and Bouncing Fish are strong, but they are not the kind of moves you press and win at 100% center stage. Her 50/50s were removed because they gave Sheik a grab2win strategy and Sheik gets grabs A LOT (She can still do grab2win on certain characters like Mew2). Killer tilt combos are elaborate. Shiek needs to open herself a golden opportunity to get a Bouncing Fish or an Uair. What is interesting is all the moves that lead to those 2 need to be used mixed up with one another (Nair, Bair, Fair, FTilt, DTilt, UTilt, Needles) or at strict %s , and some combos get ruined with rage. By all means and purposes, Sheik needs a strategy to win, she can't throw out a move and expect her opponent to die.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is not as good as some people think he is, upper mid tier at best. He still needs two small buffs to help his biggest problems:

• Reduce F-air landing lag (30 --> 25). With how precise the sweetspot is to land on grounded opponents, it shouldn't also be so easily punishable by them. Even landing sweetspot is punishable if the opponent is fast enough or they perfect shield.
• (optional) Why is Falcon Punch so weak for how laggy it is, again?
• Make Falcon Dive go the same horizontal distance when you reverse it as when you use it normally. This would help him recover from certain moves like Pikachu B-throw, and also to not kill himself when going out to edgeguard.

Voting my legitimate favorite Pokemon, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Falcon's a perfectly viable high-mid tier character who needs no major changes, although I do sometimes fantasize about what it would be like if Falcon Punch was actually useable.

Voting Ryu.

 

[DJBor]

Don't change
I second

 

[Zerp]

Falcon Punch needs to break the game.

Really though he's pretty much fine as is, I'd give him a few slight buffs, but nothing major.

Here's Captain Falcon's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Sp1lSer2__YBwB1KvT5J0EHFtAsDJD7SqRyL5RcH9wY/viewanalytics
And here's Ryu's Poll: https://goo.gl/forms/w0pTmpVxX8H6JM7g1

(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[L9999]

Many would say a Shoryuken nerf, but seeing how camp2win is getting stronger and Ryu loses to camp2win I think it is unnecessary.

I vote Mew.

 

[DJBor]

I really had to break down the tangible impact of Ryu's long combos to realize that they are pretty weak in the long run. I've determined that he's near balanced, only a few things (and they're not major) push him into the top 10.

• Neutral air damage reduced (8>6)
• Down air spike sweetspot KBG decrease (80>60) and sweetspot damage decrease (15>13)
• Shoryuken BKB decrease (80>60) (Kurogane hammer is a mess when it comes to this move)

I vote , I want to see other opinions before I put him in the balanced group

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is the one character I wouldn't mind seeing as god tier if he ever gets to that point, considering that it takes immense mastery of the character to do well with him, so people should be rewarded for putting in that effort. If any one of his moves should be nerfed, it's the knockback of true Shoryuken, but even still I don't think it's an overwhelming move considering its relatively small sweetspot size. I'd say don't change him, as he does have the huge weaknesses of an easily edgeguard-able side-B and no way to counter campers.


Voting for one of my secondaries and a really fun and slick character, .

 

[Deleted member]

Ryu needs no changes. Moving on.

I vote .

 

[vertime]

Hello my Ryu, Hello my combos, hello my ragtime maaaan.
Honestly, Ryu is solid. In the right hands, with tech learned and combos memorised, this guy is unstoppable.

It's just a shame he's so damn complex. There isn't much you could do to Ryu without changing his design. He's meant to represent Street Fighter, and he does a good job of it. Look for an opening, get a mad combo that puts the opponent near death, finish with either another mad combo or a quick, strong kick. The problem lies in that the combos that are insane are really hard to do; he's a skill based character.

The very most I could think is buffing his upthrow to kill earlier. Maybe around 145 so you can maybe pull of a few combos and be rewarded with a strong killing blow. Other than that, the character really isn't that flawed beyond mis-inputs being all the too common with his Street Fighter moves integrated into a two button game with a different stick mechanic.

 

[MarioMeteor]

True Shoryuken is not okay and that thing should be nerfed immediately. In return, make Hadouken (and by extension Shakunetsu) all around faster because it is definitely not that slow in Street Fighter.

Voting Spa- I mean Samus.

 

[vertime]

True Shoryuken is not okay and that thing should be nerfed immediately

I do not agree, I think it's difficult to find a situation in natural play to use that and getting a confirm by dtilt or utilt requires the enemy to make an incredibly unsafe move and the True Shoryuken is a punisher for that. It's a good punishing tool that is hard to naturally transition into from normal movement. It's fair in my opinion.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I do not agree, I think it's difficult to find a situation in natural play to use that and getting a confirm by dtilt or utilt requires the enemy to make an incredibly unsafe move and the True Shoryuken is a punisher for that. It's a good punishing tool that is hard to naturally transition into from normal movement. It's fair in my opinion.

Confirming into a frame 6 move with invincibility on startup out of a frame 2-3 normal with no landing is difficult and fair?

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'm fine with Ryu. He has amazing damage output, one of the best kill confirms in the game, and is a lot of fun to use IMO. There isn't really anything that I would change about him because as good as True Shoryuken is, Ryu can be easily camped, and if you're good enough at keeping him out, you don't have to worry about getting hit by True Shoryuken. Ryu's perfectly fine the way he is.

I vote for

 

[vertime]

Confirming into a frame 6 move with invincibility on startup out of a frame 2-3 normal with no landing is difficult and fair?

Creating a situation where you can get the confirm is nigh impossible, it has to be a mistake on their part. If you keep getting TS'd then you're playing unsafe.

Let's talk about Ness
bay-by
let's talk about
O-N
E
T-T
Let's talk about all the good things and the bad things that may be
Let's talk abooout Ness.
(I vote for ness)

 

[Axel311]

I think Ryu is fine powerwise, but it's a shame how you have to play so lame and campy against him. It just isn't fun for either player. For that reason I would redistribute his power a bit by giving him better approach options in exchange for nerfing the KB of true shoryu a bit.

For example, a run speed boost but less KB on true shoryu. Something like that would make camping him less imperative and make the character less frustrating to play and play against.

voting

 

[DJBor]

Love that nobody is looking at the true culprit here- nair chains into dair spike. I'm the only one who nerfed it. Easy air control trick that can tack on around 45 damage and possibly finish with a KO? Insanity. I kept the combo intact (because it's so much fun), but now it starts later, deals 10 less total damage, and KOs later as well.
True Shoryuken is pretty hard to land, but a simple BKB nerf (x0.75) turns 50% KOs into 65% KOs- significantly more tolerable.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Ryu's perfectly fine as is, he's good, but not too good.

Here's Ryu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NvO9DGY5BLmWFvr9TnCL9g0kNwcHCmq49pkJZuVU1Fk/viewanalytics
Ness's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/FkOujVL8JKGWLpi23

(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[L9999]

It is hard to talk about one of the most hated characters in mid level but one that is getting underwhelming at top level play (kinda like Yoshi). And it is no news that I play Ness and you are free of accusing me of anything. So here I go:

Remove helplessness on PK Trash. It shouldn't send Ness to helpless and kill casuals that don't know better. But the move would still remain trash because the frame data is GARBAGE.

PK Thunder. Remove PK Rikochet (Ness hits the wall and dies instead of doing it again even if you input it) on left walls, as it is unnecessary and ********. Lucas doesn't have it, why Ness does? Also, controversial one, remove the "distance cut in half on collision" clause.
PKT is super slow and literally anyone can go and hit Ness over and over/or hit him hard to distance where he cannot recover before he hits himself, and adding a mechanic that helps gimping him when in paper his recovery is already bad is not good IMO.

Down Air: Let's see. It has bad range, trash startup, trash endlag, terrible landing lag, and OK power. Ness has no tilts and mobility to have great aerials and throws right? Then why is this move so trash? It needs a drastic reduction in startup so it can be helpful. Ideally frame 8 like Fair, instead of freaking frame 20.

There may be more, but this is my 2 cents on Ness. I vote Mew.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Ness has grown on me over time. I used to loathe Ness with a passion because of his PK Fire, F-Airs, and of course, his B-Throw. As I got better at the MU as well as the game, the only thing I can say that I still hate about Ness is his B-Throw, which is a guaranteed kill option at kill percents. He can get camped somewhat easily, though.

I can't really say that I would change anything about Ness since I don't play him, but L9999 has some pretty good suggestions. Seeing PK Flash being useful would be a start.

I'm really feeling the need to talk about .

 

[Axel311]

Ness is fine. I see no issues. He has clear weaknesses and clear strengths. I think he's one of the more balanced characters in the game. He's high tier so I don't see how he needs buffs. People really hate bthrow but it's his main gimmick as a character, and I don't see him as being strong enough to warrant nerfing it. And it's really positionally dependent, so there's plenty of counterplay to it.The only real buff I'd want to give him is making his Up B immune to Rosalina down B, because that is just stupid for a character to be able to stand half a stage away and just take Ness's recovery for free.

 

[L9999]

Ness is fine. I see no issues. He has clear weaknesses and clear strengths. I think he's one of the more balanced characters in the game. He's high tier so I don't see how he needs buffs. People really hate bthrow but it's his main gimmick as a character, and I don't see him as being strong enough to warrant nerfing it. And it's really positionally dependent, so there's plenty of counterplay to it.The only real buff I'd want to give him is making his Up B immune to Rosalina down B, because that is just stupid for a character to be able to stand half a stage away and just take Ness's recovery for free.

Yeah, forgot about that. That could be solved by reducing Gravitational Pull's range. GP is intended to absorb projectiles, so I wouldn't go against that purpose by pure MU bias. Although it cannot absorb PK Trash/Freeze and DHD's gunman so....

 

[MarioManTAW]

I personally think Ness is overrated. I don't think he's high tier, but then again, I main Villager and Rosalina, so this could be MU bias.

Make PK Fire less spammable
Remove helpnessness and some of the lag on PK Flash
Optional: completely rework Up-B to actually be an intuitive recovery move

 

[DJBor]

is rockin'.
We need more characters like Ness- strong, but not perfect. That's what all character balancers should strive to make. Ness is a role model of good game design (up to the point where Rosalina steps in and forces a character swap lol) I rank him 11th for those who wonder
Now it's time! (proceeds to lab Shulk for the next two hours)

 

[L9999]

I personally think Ness is overrated. I don't think he's high tier, but then again, I main Villager and Rosalina, so this could be MU bias.

Make PK Fire less spammable
Remove helpnessness and some of the lag on PK Flash
Optional: completely rework Up-B to actually be an intuitive recovery move

PK Fire has terrible frame data. It is not spammable in any way. PK Thunder is a double edged sword. It is a terrible recovery even with the suggestions made, but it is really good for extending damage, juggling, unstaling moves, eats airdodges, frametraps, makes people do something stupid or land predictably, the bolt can be used to protect Ness when getting to the ledge, it gimps characters with crappy recoveries, and if the first frames of the tail connect it can combo into PKT2 and get a cheesy kill. Also, if Ness' Up B was more conventional, it wouldn't feel like Ness anymore. Hell, PKT is the reason I play Ness because I found the move interesting.

is rockin'.
We need more characters like Ness- strong, but not perfect. That's what all character balancers should strive to make. Ness is a role model of good game design (up to the point where Rosalina steps in and forces a character swap lol) I rank him 11th for those who wonder
Now it's time! (proceeds to lab Shulk for the next two hours)

Rosalina goes 7:3 against every low tier in the game and Killager, she also goes 6:4 with a lot of characters too. So....success?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Good to see that this thread is quite active today! It seems that a lot of people (including me) have strong opinions about .

I honestly think he's still overrated by many people, as I've ranked him just below his Earthbound cousin Lucas in high-mid tier on my list. Yes, he can rack up quite a lot of damage. Yes, he can kill quite early. But both of those extreme strengths are mitigated by his extreme weaknesses of an easily exploitable neutral game and recovery (both of which Lucas improves on as well as possessing a great combo game and kill game). It also seems that his theory has little room to grow, with PK Fire and PK Thunder setups being all that's left. This has shown itself in his results dropping drastically, as the once powerhouse FOW has significantly dropped in his rankings recently, and while S1, taranito, and a few others have been picking up the pace, their results aren't great enough for him to maintain high tier status. (On the other hand, Lucas's results just seem to get better and better, with Taiheita getting high placements and only losing to ZeRo, Nairo, and Kamemushi while 2-0'ing Marss and Abadango and even 2-stocking Aba; and Clade, Mekos, Kodystri, JeBB, SpaceDong, and a few others becoming bigger threats, indicating that his theory has more room to grow and is doing so.)

Now, onto the changes I would give to Ness. He does have some moves that are extremely powerful for how useful they are, and I'll tone those down. To compensate, I'll buff two of his lackluster moves as well as improve his ability to kill Luma to help with that awful matchup:

• Slightly nerf the knockback of B-throw (130 --> 125) and PK Thunder 2 (KBG 80/70 --> 70/60). My intent is that they kill about 5-10% later, so they're still extremely good but not broken.
• Significantly decrease startup of PK Flash (43/149 --> 35/130), and remove its helplessness. It's a laughable move at the moment, and so these buffs should make the move better at edgeguarding opponents (albeit still worse than PK Thunder) and preventing Ness from being edgeguarded.
• Decrease startup of D-air (20 --> 15) so it is actually somewhat usable to make up for its weak knockback and high end lag.
• Change the properties of moves like jab, F-tilt, N-air, and F-air to send Luma farther. This would let him kill Luma much more easily so that the matchup is slightly better (but still pretty bad).

My gut tells me to vote for Greninja, but voting is a good result.