The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L1N3R1D3R]

has gotten lots of buffs from Daddy Sakurai, but they still aren't enough to combat his biggest weaknesses of a bad neutral and terrible landing options, among others.

• Increase air speed even more (0.92 --> 0.97), and also increase double jump height. He's a dragon, 'nuff said.
• (optional) Decrease end lag of dash attack (FAF 40 --> 37). This would help set up traps and juggles, which he really needs.
• Remove windbox of D-tilt, and increase its hitbox size to compensate. This would make it easier and less janky to land, which would improve this otherwise subpar move.
• Decrease end lag of F-smash (FAF 70 --> 65) and D-smash (FAF 61 --> 56). There's no reason for them to be so laggy when they have weird, inconsistent hitboxes and don't do much damage (F-smash) or knockback (D-smash).
• (optional) Increase angle of D-throw (70 --> 80) to reduce the effect of DI and thus make followups more consistent.
• Decrease landing lag of B-air (24 --> 20) and D-air (33 --> 28) so he has better landing and spacing options.
• Decrease startup of Flamethrower (20 --> 18) so he can space better, and Flare Blitz (23 --> 20) so it's more worth the self-damage it causes.
• Decrease end lag of Rock Smash (FAF 72 --> 67) so it could possibly lead to a followup and not be entirely outclassed by Fly in terms of escape options.

Voting for MVD's main before he became extremely inconsistent with Diddy Kong, .

 

[Zerp]

Charizard's perfect already./s

For real though, why isn't he quicker in the air? He's a dragon, dragons, much like balloons, spend most of their time in the air. I think that should definitely be fixed. After that, I think decreasing lag on his smashes and making Fire Breath a ok move would be a good idea.

Charizard's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YYtmSiuEKjn43CRHx2p7Xrtc58kewkHacJsnJH0ss6Y/viewanalytics
Corrin's Poll: https://goo.gl/forms/XXVAixiKdxysJnlJ3

You can vote for any of these people who can't generate as much controversy as Corrin did if they tried to. Well... probably.
Sonic is going to jinx me on the whole can't cause as much controversy thing isn't he?

I vote for .

 

[vertime]

Had a lot of playing around with

Honestly, I think the only buff he'd need is making it so people can't fall out of his smash attacks as easy and he'd be pretty good. Saying that, I do really enjoy playing Duck Hunt so, seeing how I really like his kit already, I am probably bias towards not changing him as much as he needs to be changed.

STILL VOTING FOR BABY

Anyway, Corrin.
Can we not have a counter that's completely crazy in power? For god's sake she's got Shulk's range, decent speed and a decent amount of killing power behind it, she doesn't then need a counter that KOs super easy too. His UpB miffs me enough but if anything I want that counter gone.
But to be honest that's just because I hate counters, he's got a decent kit that's fairly balanced for what it is and is pretty viable so I suppose I'd rather there be no changes but **** counters man.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I want to be careful about changing . She certainly is a strong competitor, with her biggest weakness keeping her down being her subpar mobility. However, she might become a little too good with a mobility buff, as she has fearsome range and one simply ridiculous move. I honestly wouldn't change her at all, but if I had to change her, this is what I would do:

• Buff walk speed: 1.15 --> 1.18
• Buff run speed: 1.45 --> 1.5
• Buff air speed: 0.97 --> 1
• (optional) Buff D-air: FAF 52 --> 49
• Nerf Dragon Lunge:
  • Aerial: hitbox active 10-11 --> 13-14, FAF 42 --> 45
  • Out of Special Hop: hitbox active 4-5 --> 6-7
  • Remove "Pin, Behind, Early" hitbox so you have to lunge forward to hit opponents in front of you
• (optional) Nerf damage multiplier of the late hit of Counter Surge: 1.3x --> 1.2x

Voting the maker of slow-paced For Glory matches, .

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Oh Corrin, the overrated by top players character. She is fine as is, reverting her speed back won't do much, but it's something.

Voting controversy incarnate -

 

[MarioMeteor]

Nerf Dragon Lunge's knockback, because that **** is ridiculous and buff something else of his in return. Maybe make forward throw combo or something like that.

 

[L9999]

Kamui doesn't need nerfs. Camp2win people, don't get predictable at the edge and edgeguard.

I go by the popular vote of Duck Hunt Dog.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Overall I think Corrin is fairly balanced, however I think Dragon Lunge could use a slight nerf.

Copying & pasting my thoughts on it:

Dragon Lunge is a little bonkers IMO.
Overall, I'm okay with everything this move can do except for the that fact that the forward & back kicks can kill at around 100% center stage. Considering that instant pin can come out as early as frame. Along side that, it is very difficult (sometimes down-right impossible with some characters) to punish. I feel it's a bit too safe with that kind of power.

So in my opinion, I would probably nerf the KBG on all versions of the kicks down to 78.

I vote for your master

 

[DJBor]

Holy crap, I missed Charizard. Wow.
And Bayonetta?? Please, give me a sec, I'll be right back with both.

Bayonetta is very hard to determine. I couldn't imagine any change that would make any difference to her, even though people are saying she's top tier. Kind of like Pikachu, or the occasional Meta Knight. I place her 14th (below Ness, Toon Link, Meta Knight) and really I don't see any reason to change that. Her neutral is very good, her recovery is decent, her combos are the way they are supposed to be, and to KO now requires a difficult read.

Time to get this off my chest.
I think Charizard is the best character that still needs to be buffed. There, I said it.
He's fast, powerful, and ranged- and sure, his defense is crap, but his recovery sure isn't.
Here's the miniscule buff that would move miles towards people finally accepting this long-lost 'mon.

• Rock Smash startup decrease (24>16) (super armor frames changed from 5-23 to 3-20)
  
• Flare Blitz is now techable upon collision (ground or wall). This does so much for it.
  
• Up tilt hitbox size increase. Man, is that hitbox bad.
• All fire tipper hitbox sizes are increased. Now that back air is even more scary.

Oh yeah, and Corrin is balanced.
I vote for

 

[Zerp]

I think Corrin is basically perfect as is (balance wise) and I wouldn't want any changes, especially buffs, honestly, I think pre-patch Corrin was a little broken, his old mobility even if only slightly better plus his giant range was kind of dumb imo, also, his old counter was simply ridiculous, doesn't sound like much, but 1.3 x to 1.2x was a pretty big nerf.

Nerf Dragon Lunge, make faster.

Here's Corrin's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1hKhydPmBJxelNdlF9_nVDiAo6GXWqoSPWtQSB-kHNIw/viewanalytics
And here's Duck Hunt's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Yx3MzXK2UVOR9URG2

You can vote for any of these people who are currently being laughed at by that dog.

I vote for .

 

[Axel311]

What Duck Hunt clearly needs is a solid kill throw, or some other way to finish off stocks. Some sort of kill setup would do wonders for the character. That's the only change I'd make, other than fixing obvious stuff like people falling out of DHD's smashes.

 

[Litany]

I vote for: (he is my main)

I honestly think he needs better OoS and slightly better airspeed. Nothing much, just Brawl level. I'd also like it if he had a kill throw. Yeah, he has choke, but that's unreliable at best.

 

[vertime]

Takes my vote again.

I think I'd give Duck Hunt a new can. I think he kills fairly fine as is but I want more reward out of that can. Maybe up it's power so it kills from the ledge at around 100-120, remove the stale mechanic on it and make it so that canicides knock you the same distance but only does 1% damage to DHD. That way Canicides can actually become useful and using the can at the edge can close off stocks a lot easier, making Duck Hunt have a good way to kill AND be a good threat for mid air targets: Just like his original game!

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Through Dandy Penguin, ImHip, the Japanese trio, and various other players, has shown himself to be a character you just can't sleep on, putting him out of the low to bottom tier. However, he still has flaws that keep him from being higher than low-mid, namely that he can't kill and his recovery move is garbage.

• Make smash attacks connect much better by raising the angle and removing the KBG of their initial hits. They can kill pretty well if the last hit connects, but that doesn't happen much against people who know how to DI.
• Increase knockback of B-throw (KBG 50 --> 75) so he can kill from grab outside weird, situational can setups.
• Increase hitbox size of N-air, which would be a good kill and escape option if he could actually land it.
• (optional) Decrease self-damage of Can. This would also decrease Duck Hunt's knockback and hitstun, making it not only safe for escaping but also have a higher chance of comboing into his own punish afterward.
• (optional) Decrease end lag of Clay Shooting, which would make it safer in the neutral and improve followup potential.
• Make Duck Jump travel significantly farther and faster. It already has no hitbox or invincibility, slow startup, and no way to cancel it, why does it also have to travel so short?

Voting for the character that practically has "canon" in his name and yet is hardly canon at all, .

 

[DJBor]

Duck Hunt... I just did a fix for him. Pretty simple.

All smash attacks, Up Air, and Down Air get hitbox fixes. It's so upsetting when those moves don't work the way they need to. If they were reliable, Duck Hunt would totally be balanced.
Up Special receives a temporarily intangible, upwards-accelerated start instead of the slow acceleration upward.

It's time for GAAAANONDOOOOOOORF

 

[vertime]

Is it gonna happen papa are we going to discuss the Ganman himself?
The Ganondad?
The Ganondork?
The Ganondoop?
The Ganondave?
The Ganondorm?
The Ganondoof?
The Ganonborf?
The Ganonhorse?
The Ganonsmurf?
The Ganonburp?

 

[Zerp]

(I apologize for the slight delay, I'm not feeling all too well right now.)

Hey look, it's "give me a reliable kill option the character".

Seriously though, if we fixed up his Smashes and gave something that leads into a kill at a reasonable percent I think he'd be good, and then maybe slightly buff his recovery as well, that'd be great.

Is it gonna happen papa are we going to discuss the Ganman himself?
The Ganondad?
The Ganondork?
The Ganondoop?
The Ganondave?
The Ganondorm?
The Ganondoof?
The Ganonborf?
The Ganonhorse?
The Ganonsmurf?
The Ganonburp?

No, actually, we're doing Waluigi instead, everyone voted for Waluigi so he gets to go today. Sorry, better luck next time!

Here's Duck hunt's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1v3MAJ1MIiEswpbf6E2vINZrQp9qsm_CdOOqcjOfEiSQ/viewanalytics

And here's the one you've all been waiting for... Waluigi's poll!: https://www.google.de/search?q=WAAA...69i60l3j0l2.1309j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

What do you mean that's not who everyone voted for..?

Okay, for real, here's Ganondorf's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/DvnDA1rSN1Yk9vg93

You can vote for any of these people who may or may not be disrespected by a certain someone...


I'll vote for , because why not?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think that when people discuss buffs for Ganondorf, they do not realise how volatile it can be to buff a character such as him. Believe me when I said that you truly do not need all that much to fix Ganondorf. His game is already there: The early kills, the tech chases and reads, it's just that Ganondorf is a bit (read: very) rough around the edges.
I'd say giving him a much better Dashgrab, a kill throw in Up Throw and a slight buff in airspeed is as far as we should really go.

 

[Deleted member]

Decrease his overall damage output but still making him a hard hitter and give him a decent grab and mobility ala Melee. Voila, viable character.

 

[Axel311]

Decrease his overall damage output but still making him a hard hitter and give him a decent grab and mobility ala Melee. Voila, viable character.

I'm conflicted when it comes to ganon.

It's not a bad idea to take the melee ganon approach and make a revised ganon to be somewhere in the middle of current falcon and current ganon, when it comes to the speed vrs. power ratio. It does homogenize him with falcon more, but it would make him more viable.

At the same time though it would make landing hits with him less satisfying. It would make him less fun to play in friendlies for sure. It may be OK to not balance ganon further. Especially when it comes to mobility, I don't think the devs should go there because it changes who the character is too much. He's supposed to be a very slow character. You can't make him faster without taking away power to balance, which waters down the character.

It's pretty much impossible to ever make him on the same level as top tiers at high level without completely changing who he is, or without making him super broken at mid and low skill levels. He's designed around making hard reads and mindgames, which is not a design that will ever be viable at top level without making the character broken at other skill levels. So he may just not be balance-able.

Also voting

 

[FamilyTeam]

I forgot I was gonna vote for .
I kinda wanna see where this'll go.

 

[Deleted member]

Voting for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is teetering above the edge of bottom tier. He actually has great positives, but he also has many more negatives than most characters. Thus, he needs some seriously meaningful buffs, but not too many:

• Increase air speed a little bit, but not too much (0.79 --> 0.82). Just enough to make his aerial approach game a bit more useful and slightly improve his abysmal recovery.
• (optional) Do something with U-tilt so it isn't garbage.
• Decrease startup of dash grab (active frames 11-12 --> 9-10) and endlag of all grabs (FAF 36, 45, 42 --> 34, 41, 40). He actually has some pretty good throws, but when you can't land the grab because of its small range and big lag, it's a problem.
• Significantly increase knockback of B-throw (BKB 30 --> 70) so he can reliably kill off a grab, something I feel a tank character should be able to do.
• Greatly increase knockback of Dark Dive (BKB 40 --> 90, KBG 90 --> 100) so it's more powerful than Captain Falcon's Falcon Dive, to make up for it being strictly worse for recovery.

Voting for one of the characters that ZeRo vastly underrated, .

 

[apparently fuz]

Decrease his overall damage output but still making him a hard hitter and give him a decent grab and mobility ala Melee. Voila, viable character.

I'd say just increase all his numbers. It would be a simple but effective fix.

 

[vertime]

YES, FINALLY.

Okay, here we go:

Increase height of Dark Dive (UpB) significantly and increase it's rising speed significantly. Also, give it a more horizontal launch, letting it not be too dangerous on the ground but a potent stage spiker or offstage killer as well as being a potent recovery option.

Remove Warlock Punch entirely, replace with Dead Man's Volley, a 6%, yellow projectile with a similar travel pattern to Mewtwos B. Has a little more knockback than Mario's Fireball, making it annoying enough to force approach. Can be absorbed & reflected.

Give DownB a metric ****TON more speed I want that to come out lightning fast with little end lag. MAKE IT AN APPROACH OPTION BECAUSE IT SURE AS **** ISN'T MEANT TO BE A VIABLE KILL OPTION.

Increase the spike on the Tipman, or for those who don't know, the toe of Ganon on his UAir near the end of the move. It is a semi spike that does have combos but I'd rather it have a much higher scaling. Above around 110% on Bowser, it's a potent spike. From around 0-60% it functions well as a combo tool, as it currently does.

Gerudo Dragon (or Flame Choke/SideB) becomes UNTECHABLE and maintains momentum when used in the air instead of pulling them back to where Ganon was when he initiated the Gerudo.

UTilt given Warlock Punches startup lag with larger, stronger windboxes.

Down Taunt (The one where he pulls out his sword) becomes intangible through the whole taunt and temporarily (perhaps the same amount of time as Shulk's Monados last) increases Ganon's Dash speed from 1.218 to 1.55 and air speed from 0.79 to 1.

Down Throw becomes like Falcon's giving him small combo potential.

Short hop Dair autocancel comes back in style.

I'm not done but that's all I can come up with for now.
I'd appreciate input on this!

As a side note CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A MORE MENACING DASH ANIMATION?

Also, yes, I want this guy to be a miffing mad man, tussle my brusslesprouts about it mate

 

[ShadowGuy1]

YES, FINALLY.

Okay, here we go:

Increase height of Dark Dive (UpB) significantly and increase it's rising speed significantly. Also, give it a more horizontal launch, letting it not be too dangerous on the ground but a potent stage spiker or offstage killer as well as being a potent recovery option.

Remove Warlock Punch entirely, replace with Dead Man's Volley, a 6%, yellow projectile with a similar travel pattern to Mewtwos B. Has a little more knockback than Mario's Fireball, making it annoying enough to force approach. Can be absorbed & reflected.

Give DownB a metric ****TON more speed I want that to come out lightning fast with little end lag. MAKE IT AN APPROACH OPTION BECAUSE IT SURE AS **** ISN'T MEANT TO BE A VIABLE KILL OPTION.

Increase the spike on the Tipman, or for those who don't know, the toe of Ganon on his UAir near the end of the move. It is a semi spike that does have combos but I'd rather it have a much higher scaling. Above around 110% on Bowser, it's a potent spike. From around 0-60% it functions well as a combo tool, as it currently does.

Gerudo Dragon (or Flame Choke/SideB) becomes UNTECHABLE and maintains momentum when used in the air instead of pulling them back to where Ganon was when he initiated the Gerudo.

UTilt given Warlock Punches startup lag with larger, stronger windboxes.

Down Taunt (The one where he pulls out his sword) becomes intangible through the whole taunt and temporarily (perhaps the same amount of time as Shulk's Monados last) increases Ganon's Dash speed from 1.218 to 1.55 and air speed from 0.79 to 1.

Down Throw becomes like Falcon's giving him small combo potential.

Short hop Dair autocancel comes back in style.

I'm not done but that's all I can come up with for now.
I'd appreciate input on this!

As a side note CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A MORE MENACING DASH ANIMATION?

Also, yes, I want this guy to be a miffing mad man, tussle my brusslesprouts about it mate

I think you went from viable, to more broken...

Not more broken, he was never broken, but you know what I mean.

 

[vertime]

I think you went from viable, to more broken...

Not more broken, he was never broken, but you know what I mean.

I do not recall saying I wanted Ganondorf to be viable.
I want this man B R O K E N.

THERE IS ONLY WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT BROKEN TO REMAIN
AND GANON WILL SIT UPON THE BROKEN THRONE.

 

[DJBor]

GANONDOOOOORF
He needs movement buffs. All his moves are great on their own. But he's the overall slowest character in the game, his recovery is easily 3rd worst behind Mac and Dr. Mario, and he's so BIG!
I haven't gotten yet to how exactly I am going to buff him, here's a rough estimate.

• Increase air speed to 0.9 (just a little more than Diddy Kong)
• Decrease fall speed to 1.53, decrease fast fall speed to 2.4
• Remove helpless fall from side special, and increase its horizontal distance gain x1.3 (this is the big game changer!!!) But just like Falco Phantasm, it can't be used twice while in the air.
  
• Increase walk speed to 1. Come on, at least give him a good walk if he can't run.
• Flame choking is now untechable.

Next game, Ganondorf best be a real Ganondorf, instead of Falcondorf.
I actually think that's enough to put him in line with the likes of Ike and Donkey Kong, the more balanced of the super heavies.
My vote? Well even if I vote, it'll be Wario anyway, so let's vote to add influence to the next vote.

 

[Zerp]

I'll give Ganondorf Sonic's ground speed, Yoshi's air speed, Peach's float, make all his hitboxes come out on Frame 2, and reduce all his end-lag to no more than 3 frames. It's what all the other characters deserve for keeping him away from greatness for so long.

Okay for real, I think the Melee approach to the character is the best way to handle him, even if it means his blows become slightly less satisfying, although, honestly, I think Melee Ganondorf is also pretty fun and satisfying to land hits with, albeit not as much as Smash 4 Dorf. Making him more or less the same as his Melee version with a few additional buffs would probably make him pretty good.

Here's Ganondorf's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1nieCKRqdmp4U-6VdTQvxwMiGmSeFG6zwUUTQrfwApE0/viewanalytics
Here's Wario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/0QbfmJXXStpIhyiz1

You can vote for any of these plebs who don't own a multi-trillion coin Microgame company.


I vote for , who's probably even richer than Wario given how quickly he goes through castles.

 

[Axel311]

Alright, so I've mained Wario for ~2 years now, so I'll attempt to avoid bias. Wario is in the lower part of mid tier at the moment according to the BR tier list. And some are considering him low tier now. So he definitely needs buffs. And beware, long post ahead. His main issues holding him back as I posted recently in the Wario forums are -

- He struggles badly to kill and has poor kill options and no kill setups outside of waft which is a big weakness since waft is single use with an almost 2 minute charge time.

- Hitting waft is usually a requirement to win sets against good players because of his otherwise bad kill options, meaning wario requires you to be clutch and precise just to "catch up" to other characters. Other characters simply can get the same results or better without the very low margin for error that wario has when it comes to his only kill confirm move.

- He has poor range and few disjoints, making him weak against swords and other disjointed hitboxes

- He has a poor approach, making him very prone to campy play and being walled out

- His frame data is average at best, despite his poor range

- He has little reward out of grab, a subpar combo game with no grab combos, and subpar damage output in general

So what to do to make him more competitive?

Here are my suggestions, which generally strive to give him better overall options outside of waft to make him a more rounded character and less overcentralized on waft.

Uptilt - less startup and endlag
Ftilt - less startup and endlag

His tilts shouldn't be so laggy if they're going to have that bad of range. Compared to other characters, his are way laggier despite having much less range. His uptilt and ftilt comes out at frame 12. Compare this to a character like Cloud, who has a frame 9 ftilt and frame 6 uptilt, despite having more range and a disjoint. There's no reason to not make Wario's frame data better in this area, he doesn't have enough in the rest of his moveset to justify it.

Upsmash - less endlag, increase the knockback a bit to make it kill ~5-10% earlier
Dsmash - large decrease in endlag

Wario needs better kill potential outside of waft. It's overboard for both his upsmash and dsmash to be super punishable. I'd make them more on par with other brawling characters. No doubt they shouldn't be as safe as mario upsmash, and they of course still shouldn't be safe on shield, but they shouldn't be so laggy that they're unusable. Especially his dsmash has no reason to be so laggy.

Fair - slightly decreased endlag on short hop, +1% damage
Bair - increase knockback to kill ~10% earlier
Upair - increase KBG to keep it as a combo move at low to mid percents, but allow it to kill at high percents. Increase hitbox size so fast fall upair hits short characters reliably.
Nair - reduced KBG on hit 2 so followups work at a 5-10% larger window.

Pretty self-explanatory. Lets Wario kill a bit better and gives him more reward when he gets in, and lets him get followup hits off nair for about 1/3 longer.

Jab - Fix it so the 2nd hit actually connects properly

Neutral special - increase the benefit from item healing from 1% and 1 second off waft --> 3% and 3 seconds off waft.

If this mechanic is going to exist it should actually mean something. Why does wario only heal 1% when Ness/Lucas heal for so much?

I really don't think that's over the top at all and is a fair buff request. These buffs give him more outside of waft, but he still won't be top tier because he'll remain with a lacking neutral, bad range and most importantly no kill confirms except his current waft confirms. Those are big enough weaknesses to balance out waft.I'd guess these buffs would put him around 20th.

I've played with the idea of giving him a kill confirm like dtilt to upsmash, or giving him improved run or air speed but feel that may be overbuffing him, so I'll leave it out of my suggestions for now.

 

[DJBor]

I'm going to have to run some experiments on Wario. Right now I feel like he's in the balanced group, but people are saying he's low tier and I don't get it. I'll be back.

OK now I see why people think Wario's not that good. He feels like he's pretty balanced, but then you start to break down his moveset and realize that he doesn't have coherence in his set. Make Wario's less used moves have niches.

• Up tilt's lag properties change. Now comes out on frame 7, FAF changed to 30.
• Forward tilt receives higher KBG (98>108) so that it's a more reliable KO option.
• Waft charge times reduced to 50 and 100 (this makes waft usage a bit less risky)
  
• Mid-dair landing lag reduced (19>10) The combos are real!
  
• All of Corkscrew's final knockback angles are changed to 75. Now it can KO out the top.
• Up throw BKB reduced to 30, giving Wario a combo throw.

I find it interesting that me and Axel311's buffs did similar things in different ways, except I improved only the aerial he didn't. (Yes, I think this buff puts him up there with Pikachu and Greninja, it's really good!)
Well that was a fun exploration. Now can we finally do ?

 

[Axel311]

I'm going to have to run some experiments on Wario. Right now I feel like he's in the balanced group, but people are saying he's low tier and I don't get it. I'll be back.

OK now I see why people think Wario's not that good. He feels like he's pretty balanced, but then you start to break down his moveset and realize that he doesn't have coherence in his set. Make Wario's less used moves have niches.

• Up tilt's lag properties change. Now comes out on frame 7, FAF changed to 30.
• Forward tilt receives higher KBG (98>108) so that it's a more reliable KO option.
• Waft charge times reduced to 50 and 100 (this makes waft usage a bit less risky)
  
• Mid-dair landing lag reduced (19>10) The combos are real!
  
• All of Corkscrew's final knockback angles are changed to 75. Now it can KO out the top.
• Up throw BKB reduced to 30, giving Wario a combo throw.

I find it interesting that me and Axel311's buffs did similar things in different ways, except I improved only the aerial he didn't. (Yes, I think this buff puts him up there with Pikachu and Greninja, it's really good!)
Well that was a fun exploration. Now can we finally do ?

The upthrow suggestion is dangerous territory because it's probably broken to let Wario combo into waft out of a grab. I'm sure that's why the character was designed without any throw combos. If upthrow's KB was tweaked to only let the headbutt portion of waft work at a reasonable percent window that may not be broken, although it would still be a powerful kill confirm. Making dthrow to dash attack true at low percents would probably be the only do-able combo throw that wouldn't link into waft at kill percents. But even then, I'm not 100% sure.

 

[vertime]

Voting for

Not had much experience with Wario so I'm not going to contribute further than "Holy hell why can't I kill anything" and "What is this endlag god no"

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

As opposed to Ganondorf, who's quite bad but only needs a few buffs to be great, isn't that bad but needs quite a few buffs to fix his central problems:

• Make jab connect better so he has a good get-off-me option.
• Decrease end lag of F-tilt, U-tilt, and D-smash so they aren't nearly as risky to use for killing (or comboing as is sometimes the case for U-tilt).
• Increase hitbox duration of F-smash and knockback of U-smash, both so they're more threatening kill options and worth their high lag.
• (optional) Decrease end lag of U-throw so it's better for comboing at very low percents and setting up traps at higher percents.
• Decrease end lag and (optionally) landing lag of F-air so it can combo like Pac-Man's.
• (optional) Increase horizontal hitbox size of U-air to make landing U-air combos more viable. After all, he's bringing his hands quite far to clap them...
• Make Corkscrew connect much more reliably to make up for its bad horizontal recovery and low knockback.

Voting for goddess' sake, .

 

[TDK]

One problem with Wario is that his main gimmick (Wario Waft) is required on your opponent being in a specific, low, percent range and once you're out of that you're good until his fthrow starts killing. As such, the aim of my buffs is to make Wario's play more rewarding while not altering the character fundamentally too much.

Spoiler: TDK-approved changelist

- Neutral Air Base Knockback: 30/65 -> 30/50 (Lower BKB lets it set up into waft for longer)
- Neutral Air Landing Lag: 12 -> 8
- Forward Air FAF: 38 -> 33 (Chain forward airs better)
- Forward Air Landing Lag: 16 -12 (Chain Forward Airs together)
- Back Throw KBG: 60 -> 65 (A secondary stock cap that is more reactionary and doesn't force Wario to get in, he can react to his opponent with his back to the stage)
- Up Smash hitbox active frames: 11-12 -> 8-12 (More active frames and a faster kill option)
- Forward Smash hitbox active frames: 18-19 -> 18-22 (more active frames)

Any thoughts? I'm not extremely familiar with Wario but I hope these can at least somewhat alleviate his problems.

gets my vote.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Any thoughts? I'm not extremely familiar with Wario but I hope these can at least somewhat alleviate his problems.

That first forward air buff is ridiculous (it should be decreased, but not nearly that much, maybe to 33 or something) and the up smash buff might be pushing it, but the others I can understand.

 

[DJBor]

Up Throw for a reason! Because then you can DI up and away, and counter it unless you use the rising impact to hit. The idea is that it's at just the right distance to combo Corkscrew or Up Air out of it.

 

[Zerp]

Make Wario's Bike move at the speed of Wario Man's Bike, have instant turn around, can jump while staying on the bike (18 times), and have 500 BKB and 2000 KBG. I think that'd be fair./s

Really though, everyone else's ideas were way better than anything I would have thought up for Wario today (especially DJBor 's, that up-throw idea is brilliant!), so I'm not going to even try.

Here's Wario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1iCQCG_froupdmhfkXjcTEmLKHxBjhOWfbm5mdCKluhc/viewanalytics
And here's Palutena's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/KHXNMQHtrCuVcHKp1


You can vote for any of these people whose names are nowhere near as hard to not make a typo with.


I vote for .

 

[Deleted member]

Palutena really doesn't need much.

• uthrow made a kill throw
  
• bthrow angle lowered to make it better for edgeguard setups
  
• faster startup on jab
  
• ftilt made a multihit move, endlag reduced
  
• endlag on smashes reduced

yay gucci palutena

 

[L9999]

Man, I missed a lot. On the current topic (?) give Palutena tilts and buff trash like Autoreticle and Counter to be worth something and you have a really good character.

Palutena really doesn't need much.

• uthrow made a kill throw
  
• bthrow angle lowered to make it better for edgeguard setups
  
• faster startup on jab
  
• ftilt made a multihit move, endlag reduced
  
• endlag on smashes reduced

yay gucci palutena

Up Throw already KOs. Regi teached me....