The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[DJBor]

It's ya boy Iggy Iggs
is debatably bottom tier, and just like , viable but flawed. He needs a number of specific major improvements.

• Jab fully connects into the final hit of multi jab. Jab 2 FAF reduced (40>20)
• DOWN TILT BEST BE CONNECTIN'. Such a waste of a good move.
• Forward smash & dash attack multihits improved and hitboxes fixed. They're pretty SDI-able
• Down smash startup reduced (15>12), FAF adjusted (60>57)
  
• Grab frame data improved (active frames now 11-14, FAF reduced 36/45/42 > 32/40/40)
• Up special startup reduced (21>14)
  
• Landing lag reduced on fair (27>18) and dair (25>20)
• Clown cannon startup greatly reduced (43>23) The cannonball moves faster now as well.

And now for the real

 

[Zerp]

BUFF THE CANNON!

Here's Bowser Jr.'s results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/104cEV_xLHOECLaaRTvGBtRlcM8PHVMCZ2SGx_ATs6j0/viewanalytics
Here's Bowser's Poll: https://goo.gl/forms/NM3F1rZPCokRSXaz2

You can vote for any of these individuals who still agree that Morton is the best Koopa.

(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)
I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is better than his son and his nephews, but could still use with some tune-ups.

• Hooray, his dash attack does more damage and sends at a better angle! Doesn't help much when it has so much end lag that it's easily punishable and has trouble starting a juggle situation. Decrease that please (FAF 56 --> 50).
• Greatly decrease end lag of D-smash (FAF 72 --> 62). It's pretty quick to start up, but it doesn't kill well due to its bad angle and it can't move, so it's almost entirely outclassed by Whirling Fortress. This would help it be somewhat useful.
• (optional) Slightly reduce knockback of U-throw (KBG 180 --> 170). I'd rather have Koo Pah connect and kill at a slightly wider percent range than at a slightly earlier one, and it's not like it was as powerful as Ding Dong or anything.
• (optional) Decrease landing lag of F-air (24 --> 20). This would help his mediocre approaching game.
• D-air, why do you suck? Increase duration of meteor hitbox (17-24 --> 17-26), greatly reduce its end lag (FAF 78 --> 68), and significantly reduce its landing lag (40 --> 35).
• Make all hits of FIre Breath flinch. Charizard gets this luxury, why not Bowser?

Voting for the character who for some reason isn't the lightest in the game, .

 

[DJBor]

How the heck am I supposed to buff Bowser? And why does like only 4 people play Bowser?
After watching Dire at KTAR XVIII and Nick Riddle at CEO, I'm convinced that Bowser can be just as good as Robin (or better) if someone with the amount of time that Dath has put in the effort to master what King Koopa has to offer. I want to see more Bowser- maybe I should pick him up for the pocket? ok there are good bowser players, they just don't play often

On second thought, some of his attacks do need fixes. (not really buffs though, just fixes)

• Neutral air. Just FIX THAT HITBOX it's so terrible! Probably one of the worst hitbox confusions.
• Fair endlag reduced to 18.
• Dash attack FAF reduced to from 56 to 46.
• Fix hitbox on Fire Breath to match the actual end of the flames.

I vote my least favorite 'top tier',
(she's top tier on the zero tier list)

 

[L9999]

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/co...ch_suggestions_3_modest_buffs_are_all/d1l68pd

Leaving this one here.

How the heck am I supposed to buff Bowser? And why does like only 4 people play Bowser?
After watching Dire at KTAR XVIII and Nick Riddle at CEO, I'm convinced that Bowser can be just as good as Robin (or better) if someone with the amount of time that Dath has put in the effort to master what King Koopa has to offer. I want to see more Bowser- maybe I should pick him up for the pocket?

On second thought, some of his attacks do need fixes. (not really buffs though, just fixes)

• Neutral air. Just FIX THAT HITBOX it's so terrible! Probably one of the worst hitbox confusions.
• Fair endlag reduced to 18.
• Dash attack FAF reduced to from 56 to 46.
• Fix hitbox on Fire Breath to match the actual end of the flames.

I vote my least favorite 'top tier',

Lucina ain't a top tier. Also, Bowser has LordMix, Dire on Fire, D-Pollo, LeTroof, Ash23, Nick Riddle, HIKARU, Exist and Boozer. That's some good rep.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I'll just post this:

Aside from being combo food, Bowser has a lot of difficultly approaching due to his quick moves having little range and his long range attacks having high start up and cool down. His other weakness comes in the form of landing, since King Koopa suffers from being a large target with no safe landing options to challenge the opponent, he's better off just Bowser Bombing to the edge.


So here's a list of buffs I'd like to see for Rooki- eh Bowser:

Spoiler: List

Attributes

• Jumpsquat: 8 frames < 5 frames
• Speed up Initial Dash 14 frames < 11 frames

Ground Attacks

• Jab 1: WBKB 45/30/18 < 39/24/12. (That way it will always link into Jab 2)
• Jab 1, 2 & Ftilt: Add new Hitboxes and Windboxes on the front of Bowser to remove the blind spot and character going behind Bowser. (Example)
• Utilt: 11-16 (Arm Intangible: 12-16) < 8-13 (Arm Intangible: 8-13)
• Dtilt 2nd Hit: Dmg-11 & BKB-12 < Dmg-14 & BKB-20 (Basically matching the 1st Hit's data)
• Fsmash: Replace the late sour spot hitboxes with new sweet spots hitboxes. Legs Intangible: 20-25 < Legs Intangible: 20-27
• Dsmash Hits 2-6: Dmg 1 < 1.3. On frames 10-31 receive windboxes pulling the opponent in like a vacuum effect similar to Ganondorf's utilt or Sheik's side b.
• Dthrow: Angle 50 < 12, BKB 90 < 55, KBG 50 < 40 and reduce the FAF by 8 frames (Hopefully this turns it into a tech chase throw similar to Ganon's Side B.)

Aerial Attacks

• Nair: Auto Cancel window 1-3, 45> < 1-3, 25> OR Landing lag 20 frames < 14 frames
• Fair: Landing Lag 24 frames < 16 frames
• Biar: Landing Lag 40 frames < 22 frames
• Uair: Auto Cancel window 1-2, 40> < 1-3, 31> & Landing lag 28 frames < 18 frames
• Dair (Meteor): Active Hitbox 17-24 < 9-16
• Dair: Active Hitbox 25-49 < 17-41

Special Moves

• Fire Breath: Active Hitbox 23, 30, 37... < 18, 25, 32... (Flinchless 28, 35, 42... < 23, 30, 37...) & FAF 78 < 64. Base Dmg on all hits 1.2 < 1.7
• Flying Slam/Koopa Klaw (Command Grab, All Versions): Hitbox Active 8/17 < 7-9 & add new hitboxes through Bowsers Arm to remove the blind spot. (Example)
• Flying Slam/Koopa Klaw Hitbox/Landing: 25% less cool down. (So it can potentially combo into Fair at low percents)
• Whirling Fortress (Ground): Hits 1-5 Untechable. (If possible, allow Bowser to fall off stage with it similar to Ganon like in Melee.)
• Whirling Fortress (Aerial) Hit 1: BKB 80 < 65, KGB 60 < 115
• Whirling Fortress (Aerial) Hit 7-11: KGB 20 < 125 (Potentially letting this kill)
• Bowser Bomb Hit 1: Active Hitbox 11 < 9 OR increase the hitbox vertically all the way to the ground.
• Bowser Bomb (Landing): Increase the boxes horizontally by 5 units, Active Hitboxes 1-2 < 1-10 Dmg 11 < 6.5 Angle 76 < 26, add electric stun effect. (This basically gives Bowser Bomb a shock-wave sort of like DK's Down B. The electric stun effect is based on the shock-waves from the Bowser boss fights in Super Mario 64.)

I know some of these are a bit much to ask, so I understand if they never happen.

 

[Axel311]

Bowser mainly needs some better options to land. Other than that I think he's fine. I have no idea on the specifics of how they do that.

 

[Zerp]

Going to be honest here, i don't think I understand Bowser enough to give any real judgement on other than he could definitely use some buffs.

Fix some hitboxes, lower endlag on fair and dash attack

Here's Bowser's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jnBbTE_74jBCJ6v1o1l36_xkgA0xiikHvx63kGUhDag/viewanalytics
Here's Pikachu's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/PZwxEUzny57mmEyU2

You may vote for any of these non-rodents.
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is fine. He can cause stupid gimping jank with B-air, F-air, and Thunder, but with his low range and damage output, I don't see it being an issue. And that's shown itself, as there aren't that many Pikachu mains in general, but the ones that do exist perform quite well.


Voting a really janky and strange character that for some reason hasn't been discussed yet, .

 

[Axel311]

Pika is mostly fine. His jablocks are so incredibly jank though. I'd rather he stay at the same power level but take those out. Give him something else in return.

 

[L9999]

Pika is mostly fine. His jablocks are so incredibly jank though. I'd rather he stay at the same power level but take those out. Give him something else in return.

Those are situational, and I don't see the wave of scrubs beating top players with Pikachu or ESAM having ZeRo winning streaks. No need to nerf them.

 

[DJBor]

I vote Fox
Pikachu is balanced


This is a really worthless post... let's write something interesting.
I wonder how the game balance would be if Isaac and Inkling got in instead of Corrin and Bayonetta?
With two completely different matchups (and probably one of them becoming my main), some characters would be balanced in different ways, and I'd be more into the actual competition of tournament Smash than balancing...

 

[L9999]

I vote Fox
Pikachu is balanced


This is a really worthless post... let's write something interesting.
I wonder how the game balance would be if Isaac and Inkling got in instead of Corrin and Bayonetta?
With two completely different matchups (and probably one of them becoming my main), some characters would be balanced in different ways, and I'd be more into the actual competition of tournament Smash than balancing...

What? That makes no sense at all. Those characters don't exist. We cannot tell something about something that doesn't exist. Let's try* to play this for a second and say they are trash tier because the attributes (wherever they are) lined up to be bad. They don't affect balance in any way. My apologies if it looks rude.

 

[Axel311]

Those are situational, and I don't see the wave of scrubs beating top players with Pikachu or ESAM having ZeRo winning streaks. No need to nerf them.

ESAM does the jank jab locks often. And just because something doesn't happen constantly all the time doesn't make it OK for it to be in the game. And if your standard for fixing jank is only if the character wins 50+ tournaments in a row....well....then nobody but Sheik is ever getting fixed. Just because something isn't blatantly OP doesn't mean the game wouldn't be better or fairer without it. And I said give Pika an equal buff to offset the nerf.

 

[Zerp]

I think Pikachu's fine as is, although I still think he has potential to evolve into a problem but at the same time I doubt the Pikachu mains are going to develop the character into that kind of threat anytime soon.

Here's Pikachu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1aNcOQLAKH7hSjHBLzJ7VP7j4Km6pXLrMwqC8feoZkrg/viewanalytics
Here's Fox's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/3qhOe1ekHVYNlktt2

You may vote for any of these non-spacies.
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[Deleted member]

Fox needs absolutely no changes.

I vote for .

 

[DJBor]

Fox is, overall, the least dominant top tier. The only thing that's really keeping him in top tier are how safe his KO confirms are. Nerf up smash and the conversions into it, and Fox still has everything else in his amazing toolkit, minus what's breaking him.

• Reduce BKB on up smash (30>22) (KOs 1.26x later)
  
• Give weak nair BKB (0>1) (combos will eventually not work)
  
• Increase BKB of landing dair (20>25) (combos into smash attacks not as consistent)

, he come to town, come to save the princess Zelda.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is mostly fine. His damage racking and kill power can be insane at times, though, and this would be fixed by changing one move:

• U-air. Why this move is so lagless, does so much damage, and kills is beyond me. Decrease hit 2 damage from 11 to 9 and it will still be really good but it won't kill as early due to decreased knockback from lower damage, and its hit stun will also decrease so it hopefully shouldn't become even better for comboing.

You are the weakest . Goodbye!

 

[L9999]

ESAM does the jank jab locks often. And just because something doesn't happen constantly all the time doesn't make it OK for it to be in the game. And if your standard for fixing jank is only if the character wins 50+ tournaments in a row....well....then nobody but Sheik is ever getting fixed. Just because something isn't blatantly OP doesn't mean the game wouldn't be better or fairer without it. And I said give Pika an equal buff to offset the nerf.

Pikachu's jab locks don't affect the game and neither define the character. That is why I cited the hordes of scrubs doing the combo or ZeRo streaks. I watched recent ESAM matches and I never saw a jab lock, I will need a link for that. No, the guide doesn't count. Jab locks are situational, they have strict setups, %s, and are dependent on rage and weight. Same with footstool combos. Who gets this combos consistently? No one except robots like Kamemushi, Umeki, or Abadango. They look good in training mode but then you try to do them and then everything falls apart, and my respects to the robots who can pull this off against top players. For the record, I have been jab locked by the local Pikachu player, and it didn't feel unfair in any way. Then again everyone has different opinions, and you can accuse me of anything because I play Ice Climbers in Brawl. And what buff could you give Pikachu in return that isn't significant? The rat has a lot of tools to work with.

I vote .

 

[Axel311]

I agree with above. Fox is mostly fine, but could use some slight tweaks. It would be completely reasonable for his upair to get a small reduction in knockback considering its other traits.

 

[Zerp]

I think Fox is perfectly fine, but maybe I've just gotten too soft on the Top Tiers lately, I dunno.

Fox's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XNz-UmRQMC2rCi_k2MNfs3rfKzfZg6hugUV5wjhhic8/viewanalytics
Link's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/2ylN9hDxzWdmnEhg2

You may vote for Toon Link and any of these cowards! people who lack the Triforce of Courage.
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[DJBor]

Yeah, Link doesn't stink, but he's low tier. I put him right below in terms of current viability and how much buffs are needed.
Link should not be completely outclassed by his younger, cartoonish self. These are some pretty heavy-duty buffs compared to what I've done recently. Also I vote

• General lag decreases (that's startup and endlag...) on all tilts and Gale Boomerang.
• For tilts, all startups and FAF are reduced by 3 frames each. For Gale Boomerang, startup and FAF are reduced by 9 frames each.
  
• Remove the tipper on forward smash. It really is awful when you are ready for the big punish, and your target just falls out of your fsmash!
• Fair is redesigned to become an actual multihit, dealing a total of 17 damage (a.k.a. first hit damage reduced to 4, its kbg removed as well)
• Air speed increased to 0.94 (equal to toon link) This one is entirely optional.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Link has been going places lately. If he keeps getting good results I'd probably put him in high-mid tier. For now I'll put him in mid tier, which is still better than where I would've placed him before T got some good results this summer. 2nd at Umebura 24 is really good, and 9th at Umebura S.A.T is nothing to sneeze at, placing higher than players like Abadango, Komorikiri, and Ranai

Spoiler

(even eliminating Ranai.)

 

[Guido65]

I posted my suggestions for link buffs in another thread. These are the buffs link should get. Hopefully they aren't too much.
Jumpsquat: frame 7->frame 5.

Run speed increased: 1.3944->1.52.

Air acceleration: increased(0.04->0.06).

Air speed: increased from 0.88->1.00(now matches).

Jab 1 startup:7->5.

Jab 1 faf:28->19(now what it was pre patch) Angles edited to match to remove the infinite.


Jab 2 and 3 also receive a endlag reduction 21->19(jab 2) 37->31(jab 3).

Neutral air:now frame 4 like melee.

Up B: sourspot removed,faf decreased (82->60) startup decreased(8->5).

Uptilt: damage increased 9%->10% Faf lowered by 3 frames 36->33. Kbg increased slightly 122/130/123/124->128/136/129/130.

Up air kbg increased: 88->100.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Why in God's name are people still underrating ? Yes, he's worse than his less realistic counterpart, but he's still not a bad character, with T, Scizor, Izaw, and several others showing just what he can do with the enormous strengths he has. I have him as mid tier at the moment, but I would still like to see him tuned up a bit more:

• Somewhat increase air speed so his neutral game, recovery and edgeguarding are more versatile.
• Decrease the startup of F-tilt and (optionally) dash attack by a couple frames. At the moment these moves are simply outclassed by others, and this would help them have unique uses.
• As weird as it may sound, I actually want his B-air to have less KBG so it can combo into other moves at higher percents. Decreasing its landing lag would also help it be a good combo move.
• (optional) Slightly increase hitbox size and decrease landing lag of U-air. This would make the move better at hitting grounded opponents and possibly starting combos from there.
• Slightly decrease startup of Gale Boomerang. It's too lackluster right now, being slower than Hero's Bow and less useful than Bombs.

Voting for probably the easiest character for Nintendo to make models for, .

 

[Zerp]

Rushy rush rush

Here's Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1UbpczYo6q1iEsbHWLg2ffFOkOv36I2V_eewikgOQeZ8/viewanalytics
Here's Mr. Game and Watch's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/3bggvfLMN67pCiYI2

You may vote for any of these inferior three dimensional beings.
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[FamilyTeam]

Honestly, I'd vote Mew. It's better, frankly.Seems to be the most productive days of this thread.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I sadly don't know very much about MG&W & his weakness that are preventing him rising higher, with the exception of his light weight of course. So I guess maybe change his weight from 75 to 79? (Same as Kirby, Pikachu & Olimar)

Regardless, I vote for

 

[MarioManTAW]

From what I've seen, is a decent character, but his biggest weaknesses are his light weight and his struggle to kill.
My suggestions:
Make one of his smashes a bit faster. They're not great, and speeding up at least one would help.
Increase KBG on B-throw.

Voting

 

[Arthur97]

Up Smash does have the invincibility going for it at least.

 

[L9999]

Game and Watch changes:

Up Tilt: bigger hitboxes. Right now the hitbox is ultra tiny, hampers Up Tilt's utility.
Dash Attack: 1% more damage, ending lag (19 to 10). A lifted Brawl nerf that improves one if his punish/KO options slightly.
Down Smash: Remove the sourspot so Down Smash is more viable to throw out and kill.
Neutral Air autocancel restored. (What is with Sakurai and his fetish for gimping GnW's landing lag?)
Foward Air: Damage from 11.5% to 16%. This way it can KO like it did in Brawl.
Back Air: Landing lag 19 to 12. It no longer does 15% damage, it doesn't need more lag.
Foward/Back Throw: Angle from 58 to 40. Better angle to compliment Game and Watch's edgeguarding and be worth a damn.
Change Down Throw back to the tech chasing Down Throw from Brawl and change Up Throw to be Smash 4's Down Throw (as weird as it sounds). There you go, all of GnW's throws are useful.

This is my take on GnW. He doesn't need much changes because has a functioning moveset from the get go, he just needed some lag chopped off, KO options, and a use to his position throws. (Techchasing Down Throw nets techchase to Down Smash KO btw).

I vote Mew.

 

[DJBor]

Now those are some serious buffs. Here's my lighter take on good old Mr. 1980-

• Raise weight to 78, obvious
  
• Make the HITBOX of up air connect better... Windboxes should not negatively affect KO confirms
  
• Make the hitbox of nair not based on the fish, but on the bowl itself, for better consistency overall
• Make the hitbox of up tilt better, because it's terrible and doesn't connect into itself half the time.
• Decrease startup on neutral special (18>10) and reduce FAF (50>40) for a more reliable movement option and semi-spike

Perfect. Maybe then I'd try and pick him up. Haven't really touched him since Brawl.
Time for us to finally buff

 

[Axel311]

G&W definitely needs a buff. I think a good option here is to give him a ground run speed boost. Will make his approach/neutral better without changing the character too much. Character is too prone to getting walled out.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is decent, a mid low tier for sure, but he needs a lot of fine tunes to be really good:

• Change angle of D-tilt to upward so it can combo more and still kill, but just in a different way.
• Remove F-smash's sour spot, and make D-smash's sour spot much more powerful.
• Increase damage of F-air. Why it was nerfed so much from Brawl baffles me.
• Decrease landing lag of B-air. This would also improve potential followups.
• Decrease overall lag of Chef. This would improve its usefulness for approaching and edgeguarding.

These are the changes he definitely needs to be viable. As for extra changes that would help:

• Slightly increase walk and run speeds. This would help his approach game.
• Decrease end lag of jab 1. This would allow for more extensive combos from a larger distance.
• Increase hitbox duration of F-tilt. This would let it catch dodges better, and also match the animation.
• Lower the angle of F-throw and B-throw, and slightly increase their knockback. This would let them kill earlier as well as set up for edgeguards better.
• Make hit 1 of U-air reliably connect into hit 2. Whether that means changing the angle, decreasing the knockback, or temporarily removing the wind box, it would help Toot Toot be viable.
• Rebalance Oil Panic by decreasing the lag of the filling animation, but increasing the lag of the attack itself to compensate.

Voting for everybody's favorite waifu, .

 

[L9999]

Voting for everybody's favorite waifu, .

But is my favorite waifu. Also...

After a full year of metagame shifts, school getting in my nerves, my personal life, a better tier list to work by, and no signs of further patching, my revised compilation of changes is FINALLY COMPLETE!!!! At least for bottom tier. Zerp it is time to update my old list.

Edit: And it has a spelling error just at the beginning!!! Good grief!!!! Fixed now.

 

[Arthur97]

Watch them announce a patch today.

 

[Zerp]

But is my favorite waifu. Also...

After a full year of metagame shifts, school getting in my nerves, my personal life, a better tier list to work by, and no signs of further patching, my revised compilation of changes is FINALLY COMPLETE!!!! At least for bottom tier. Zerp it is time to update my old list.

Edit: And it has a spelling error just at the beginning!!! Good grief!!!! Fixed now.

Thanks! I added it to the OP alongside the old list.

Watch them announce a patch today.

INB4 they do that but it only changes the Tourney mode and is merely announced to get people's hopes up so they can be crushed later.

Anyway, for Mr. Game and Watch, I'm not really sure what to think of his viability, I thought he was low-tier for quite some time, but he's been getting okayish results recently while having a very small playerbase, so I'm thinking either he's got a stronk but small playerbase or he's actually kind of good. I have no clue whether he's a low mid tier or just a mid, but whatever, he needs buffs either way.

Here's Mr. Game and Watch's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1BPNO-sN-vSUDxZQolLH_1IWWp7_SyiLhfnOByG18oT4/viewanalytics
Here's Little Mac's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/JBqUkQGWSCrCny1K2

You may vote for any of these people who didn't mistake Little Mac for Mc Donalds advertisement.
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

was designed in hopes of being a serious threat on the ground but easy to deal with in the air. The problem is that his ground game has a couple of flaws that make it not balance out his atrocious air game.

• Revert his aerial side-B distance nerf. It was already one of the shortest recovery moves in the game, it didn't need to be further nerfed to add insult to injury just to appease the salty For Glory players.
• I get that he's supposed to be short, but with such a bulky body, would it hurt to give him a few extra units of weight? It would help him not immediately be put in an awful situation every time he gets hit, which is a major reason why he's so bad.
• It makes sense that his aerials should be bad, but they don't need to have so much landing lag and impractical autocancel windows on top of being extremely laggy, weak, and short ranged. Decrease the landing lag of all his aerials, please.
• And if these buffs are too much, he can always have his smash attacks toned down to compensate, because they're extremely good at the moment.

Voting for the character VoiD just can't seem to beat, .

 

[DJBor]

is in my "To Be Fixed" category, with the likes of . He would be balanced if a couple of things were fixed-

• Up special maintains its full height while in the air
• KO punch windbox/whiff glitch fixed
• "Roy Zone" on neutral special and forward special fixed

Roy zone is a Melee term describing the inner section of Roy's sword that does not have a hitbox, causing a whiff.
I vote , I need a break.

 

[L9999]

The hell is a Roy zone?