The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[DJBor]

"all it going to do is limited the alts." That didn't stop Little Mac...
Anyway, I really only want Lucina and Roy out to make room for a newcomer FE character. Hector maybe? Ephraim? Or whatever new mascot ends up in Fire Emblem for NX? Something new. We should not have six SWORDfighters from a game that also has bows, lances, axes, etc. (and then give 3 of them the same special moves) Robin brought in FE's magic system, and Corrin took aspects of his signature dragon moves- that's a step in the right direction. Now let's get Hector's axe attacks, Ephraim's mighty lance, or ???'s other brand new unreleased ability.

I don't mind Lucina popping in for this game only. Really would build the zeitgeist of Smash 4 just like Wolf and Snake are doing for Brawl/PM.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

"all it going to do is limited the alts." That didn't stop Little Mac...
Anyway, I really only want Lucina and Roy out to make room for a newcomer FE character. Hector maybe? Ephraim? Or whatever new mascot ends up in Fire Emblem for NX? Something new. We should not have six SWORDfighters from a game that also has bows, lances, axes, etc. (and then give 3 of them the same special moves) Robin brought in FE's magic system, and Corrin took aspects of his signature dragon moves- that's a step in the right direction. Now let's get Hector's axe attacks, Ephraim's mighty lance, or ???'s other brand new unreleased ability.

I don't mind Lucina popping in for this game only. Really would build the zeitgeist of Smash 4 just like Wolf and Snake are doing for Brawl/PM.

This is not the thread for that, we have plenty of smash 5 threads, this is for balancing. like I said before making them alts will not make room for other characters you will just get fewer characters in the end. We have so many sword fire emblem characters because they are most relevant as in late.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Why are people suddenly talking about Lucina's role in Smash 5?
Whether you dislike her or not, she's not THAT boring as a character game-play wise.

I'm honestly kind of worried when we get to Dark Pit now.

 

[L9999]

Zerp for everyone's sanity change the character already!!!

 

[Alexander1583]

Zerp for everyone's sanity change the character already!!!

LOL, we cant even talk about how to improve clones because it will devolve into a representation agument, even if they mattered little to nothing to the selection process. Good job guys. And this is the game that made up movesets for cap falcon, sheik, fox, rosalina etc despite never fighting in their home series, But made the dark swordfighter/sorcerer a brawler, ignored Ike using axes, never gives samus any of her iconic beams etc... .

 

[Zerp]

Zerp for everyone's sanity change the character already!!!

Eh, even though the day's been a little crazy and I'd kind of like to, wouldn't closing her day earlier than everyone else be like indirectly saying she isn't equal to the other characters? She's a fully fledged character and shouldn't be regarded as inferior to the others, so she deserves a full day imo.

 

[Arthur97]

Eh, even though the day's been a little crazy and I'd kind of like to, wouldn't closing her day earlier than everyone else be like indirectly saying she isn't equal to the other characters? She's a fully fledged character and shouldn't be regarded as inferior to the others, so she deserves a full day imo.

That's...kind of deep.

 

[Zerp]

I personally feel like I've underrated Lucina until rather recently (like a month or two ago), I used to think she was vastly inferior to Marth but the lack of tipper isn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it was and she's actually pretty solid. I think she's actually good as is, but kind of borderline, maybe she needs one or two buffs, maybe she doesn't, I don't know.

Give Lucina something to seperate her from Marth. Right now she basically IS Marth except with a shorter sword, no Tipper, and less damage.

Here's Lucina's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1VaH4RVukX34ARrh_XPO2RcxRT_SXR76EtMy2FWXsWBo/viewanalytics
Here's Toon Link's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/mN7ZDS4weuep8WGI3

You may vote for any of these characters that may or may not have the Triforce of Courage.

 

[FamilyTeam]

The "shorter sword" thing really is debatable, though. It's shorter but not to the point where it's any noticeable.
Even the classic example of "Marth can hit people in platforms with Side Smash while Lucina can't" doesn't hold true, because neither of them can do it with any consistency, nor is it exclusive to one or the other. Here's Lucina doing it:

Try as I might, I also could not find any difference in horizontal range. So yeah, pretty unnoticeable, all things considered.

Won't opinate on a character I don't play, so I'll just vote Pit.

 

[DJBor]

Let's talk about Toon Link...
Ever since the fall of Hyuga, Toon Link has made a much less noticeable impact on the metagame. But I think that Toon Link is a high tier- right up there with Ness, Meta Knight, Bayonetta, and Corrin. He is easily the most well-rounded fighter, with perfectly balanced everything. When I nerf top tiers, I actually guide their changes towards being equal to Toon Link.
I Vote Dark Pit.

 

[Matt11111]

Toon Link... I kind of wish he had more throw combos. Maybe if the angle and knockback of down throw were decreased, it could lt link into a back air or an airborne up-B.

 

[L9999]

guys toon link needs a nerf he is a link ripp off and he sucks and is not even that good and hyuga whass a pedophile so all toon link platers are pedos

If you are not going to contribute to the discussion then I suggest you to abstain of pointless troll posts.

 

[Green Zelda]

Just lower the angle of his down trhow, so it launches opponents horizontally. This'll allow him to properly throw opponents offstage without staling back throw.

Voting for dark pit!

 

[FamilyTeam]

Just ignore the clear troll and throwaway account, people. I heard the mods usually pick up the garbage in an hour.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I play a decent amount, so I should be somewhat qualified to say that he's probably high tier and he doesn't need any changes. It's not like his meta game was relying on Hyuga, because he's still getting quite solid results from Zan, Sigma, and several others around the globe. If anything, his D-air should have less end lag in the air so it doesn't kill him every time he uses it offstage (make it like G&W's, for example), but even that is just personal desires and probably unnecessary.

Voting for the red Transforme--I mean, .

 

[Lord Dio]

Hmmmmm toon link......don't play him, so this will be quick and likely incorrect, if it is,sincerest apologies.
There should be something done about that dair. It seems like a lot of sds come from a character with a move like that using it and being unable to recover. Aside from that, maybe speed up the timer on the bombs a slight bit.

Voting for Dark Pit because I play him occasionally (I prefer most of the clones over the originals).

 

[Zerp]

I'm going to abstain from Toon Link.

Toon Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Qt-72ROtfvd9z0Qcdtap6FlQCjOl-N-izZStiPF9z3U/viewanalytics
Dark Pit's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/YjK3DqP5RG9ZHv4f2

You may vote for any of these characters that aren't as edgy and cool as Dark Pit.

 

[Matt11111]

Hmmmmm toon link......don't play him, so this will be quick and likely incorrect, if it is,sincerest apologies.
There should be something done about that dair. It seems like a lot of sds come from a character with a move like that using it and being unable to recover. Aside from that, maybe speed up the timer on the bombs a slight bit.

Voting for Dark Pit because I play him occasionally (I prefer most of the clones over the originals).

Well, I used to SD a lot with dair (that's the main reason Toon Link is my Disaster Master) but I guess I learned not to use dair so close to the edge of the stage. Of course, you can always pull out a bomb and chuck it down if you want to try to land safely.

Oh shoot. Are we talking about Dark Pit now? I honestly don't know how to play him or Pit Classic, so Imma shut up now.

 

[DJBor]

Such wasted potential... Bet you didn't know Dark Pit doesn't even have the Electroshock Arm. Is it finally time to make into a real clone? Who wants some?

• Up smash KOs horizontally behind Dark Pit.
• Down smash connects into itself, dealing less knockback but more damage.
  
• Forward smash uses the Dark Pit Staff as featured in Dark Pit's victory animations.
• Down tilt has vertical knockback instead of horizontal.
  
• Up air hits only one time, dealing less damage but having more knockback.
  
• Down air doesn't spike. Now it's like Meta Knight's. But forward air semispikes now, like Game & Watch's pan.
  
• Back air is stronger at the base instead of the tip.
• Down special now has a hitbox, but, like Brawl Pit, only works in front.
• Up special has less range, and ground speed is slower, but in return Dark Pit is faster in the air and has higher jump height.

That there is a character I would possibly main or counterpick. An aerially focused version of Pit with more single hit moves than multihits. And if he's truly weaker or stronger this way, simply adjust weight up or down to make him equal.

 

[Matt11111]

Such wasted potential... Bet you didn't know Dark Pit doesn't even have the Electroshock Arm. Is it finally time to make into a real clone? Who wants some?

• Up smash KOs horizontally behind Dark Pit.
• Down smash connects into itself, dealing less knockback but more damage.
  
• Forward smash uses the First Blade as featured in Dark Pit's victory animations.
• Down tilt has vertical knockback instead of horizontal.
  
• Up air hits only one time, dealing less damage but having more knockback.
  
• Down air doesn't spike. Now it's like Meta Knight's. But forward air semispikes now, like Game & Watch's pan.
  
• Back air is stronger at the base instead of the tip.
• Down special now has a hitbox, but, like Brawl Pit, only works in front.
• Up special has less range, and ground speed is slower, but in return Dark Pit is faster in the air and has higher jump height.

That there is a character I would possibly main or counterpick. An aerially focused version of Pit with more single hit moves than multihits. And if he's truly weaker or stronger this way, simply adjust weight up or down to make him equal.

Well said. It really is a wasted opportunity that they didn't flesh out Dark Pit as a fighter.

 

[Arthur97]

Such wasted potential... Bet you didn't know Dark Pit doesn't even have the Electroshock Arm. Is it finally time to make into a real clone? Who wants some?

• Up smash KOs horizontally behind Dark Pit.
• Down smash connects into itself, dealing less knockback but more damage.
  
• Forward smash uses the Dark Pit Staff as featured in Dark Pit's victory animations.
• Down tilt has vertical knockback instead of horizontal.
  
• Up air hits only one time, dealing less damage but having more knockback.
  
• Down air doesn't spike. Now it's like Meta Knight's. But forward air semispikes now, like Game & Watch's pan.
  
• Back air is stronger at the base instead of the tip.
• Down special now has a hitbox, but, like Brawl Pit, only works in front.
• Up special has less range, and ground speed is slower, but in return Dark Pit is faster in the air and has higher jump height.

That there is a character I would possibly main or counterpick. An aerially focused version of Pit with more single hit moves than multihits. And if he's truly weaker or stronger this way, simply adjust weight up or down to make him equal.

Making him aerial focus does make a lot of sense given his background.

 

[L9999]

.
Nair having a bigger hitbox. Right now it is pathetic.
Foward Tilt actually having the startup of a tilt.
Up Smash having hitboxes that scoop up opponents.
Down Tilt spiking like .

Although all these changes could go to too...

 

[Lord Dio]

Dark Pit:
Easier to guide arrows (hopefully he gets decloned and actually uses his staff for something besides the final smash)
Buff nair, big time. The Pits have really sad nairs.
Either make dair not spike anymore, or make it easier to spike with it.
Fair even semispiking seems weird in my head, the local pit main uses fair quite a bit, and very well too, and as a Dark Pit player I really can't see fair even partially spiking making sense.
Interesting thing I'd like to see for next game though: Side B in the air spikes if it hits.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

DJBor basically said what I would do to de-clone should he return to the next Smash game. However, sadly it's too late to change him that much now, and so here is what I would do to improve him for this game:

• Slightly buff air speed so he can actually use his N-air and improve the rest of his aerial moveset. I would also give this buff to regular Pit, but since Pit is basically better than Pittoo in most matchups because of his Bow, I'll give Pittoo another buff:
• Decrease end lag of F-tilt. If it's going to be much weaker than Pit's, it should be at least good for something, which in this case is comboing.

Voting for Zero Suit Samus reincarnated, .

 

[Zerp]

In order to differentiate from Pit, Dark Pit's Electroshock should do 999% damage and have 10000000000000000 BKB, but his arrows should have 100 frames of lag and do 1%, while Pit is the exact opposite, that way he'd feel very different from Pit./s

Really though, I think he's on the borderline between barely needing a buff and not needing one, and honestly, I'm not sure which to go with.

Why is Dark Pit almost identical to his counterpart? Dark Pit Is A Character Too!

Change arrow to wider hitbox + slower

Here's Dark Pit's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mqux-NvHrdsjD8x54RcWLapzyDxAn0xSJfPcFrWqMpU/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Brawler's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Hf8d0c4WG4UDgthr1
Also, Mii Brawler is being treated as Guest XXXX for the poll, although you're welcome to discuss any variant.

You may vote for any of these characters that fight dirty use weapons/man-carrots.

 

[Lord Dio]

I assume that mii brawler is 1111, correct?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I assume that mii brawler is 1111, correct?

Guest XXXX, actually.

 

[DJBor]

First of all, all Miis should be allowed Guest XXXX. It balances them all right into mid tier... and it's kind of their own special gimmick. Palutena is straight up broken just like everyone else with customs, but Mii customs were actually balanced well. 1111 is always one of their worst sets.\
Some good sets for Mii Brawler are 1132 and 2323. The sets are easily both balanced tier if not high tier, and Mii Brawler has pretty balanced movement when in Guest size. Never let Mii Brawlers shrink themselves, then they are absolute top tiers, probably placing above Sheik on my tier list. (btw my new tier list uses a new ranking system- top, high, balanced, limited, low, and bottom, so I will be using those terms now)

Does Mii Brawler need a buff? Unlike Mii Gunner, whose smash attacks and up air have trouble connecting (putting them in limited with XXXX), the only buff Mii Brawler really needs is the ability to use his customs.

on the other hand... well he needs some fixing. If he gets voted in tomorrow I'll explain in more detail.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

in Guest XXXX is one of the more balanced characters. He has huge burst potential that works like Zero Suit due to its reliance on grabs and abuse of up-B. He's more balanced than ZSS because his mobility and recovery aren't as ridiculous and his neutral is also worse, but to somewhat make up for it he doesn't have to commit as hard to start a combo. I would like to nerf Helicopter Kick and buff several of his lesser used special moves, however:

• (optional) Make F-smash and D-smash have two more active frames as a sourspot. They're currently terrible because they have very few active frames and a lot of end lag, so this would make them usable.
• Exploding Side Kick (neutral3): Decrease end lag somewhat and it might not be as terribly punishable as it is now, similar to how I would buff Falcon Punch.
• Burning Dropkick (side2): Decrease end lag a little bit, but not as much as I would for Luigi's Green Missile, because at least with this move Brawler keeps his momentum afterward.
• Headache Maker (side3): Somewhat decrease startup, but I could see it being ridiculous if it were too fast.
• Soaring Axe Kick (up1): Significantly increase recovery distance so it has some use over the other two alternatives.
• Helicopter Kick (up2): Decrease aerial mobility afterward, because it's kinda bonkers that this move can gimp so early near the side blast zones and still let you get back to the stage. This would also hurt its recovery, making it not the obvious best choice anymore.
• Head-On Assault (down1): Take away the ground-only property from the first hit and make it able to grab the ledge earlier, similar to how I would buff Bowser Bomb.
• Foot Flurry (down3): Decrease end lag, because currently it's very lackluster on the ground and it only air stalls the first time.

Voting for the top tier hidden in armor that makes her low-mid tier, .

 

[Zerp]

Mii Brawler is a odd one in that his viability is drastically different depending on the ruleset, Guest XXXX is pretty balanced high-mid tier imo, Small-Fat is a high tier imo, Small-Skinny is definitely one of the best characters in the game, and Guest 1111 is one of the worst.

nerf Helicopter Kick, buff the lesser used specials

Mii Brawler's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/15gmnBvM03clm7hBtqpLJGYcU5azSqw6h5v_Nzekl3Po/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Swordfighter's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/JEiBSPAekCPAqXKA3
Again, the poll's Guest XXXX.

You may vote for either any of these humanoids or the murderous robot just waiting to go on a rampage friendly robot.

 

[DJBor]

even with XXXX is low tier. Its moves have some really odd properties that make everything feel really clunky, and unlike Zelda most of these moves have over 11 frames of startup. That's just sad. This was actually the first character I joined in this program with, but I wasn't making fixes back then.
This is going to be a nightmare of buffs...

• Jumpsquat reduced to 5. This is actually the biggest thing holding back Mii Sword.
• Make it harder to fall out of dair, and give it a final spike hitbox as well, just like Kirby's.
  
• Fix fair's hitbox, and move the hits closer together and earlier, and reduce landing lag (frames 11, 16, 21 > 8, 12, 16) (17>13 landing lag)
• Give up smash a much improved hitbox, covering behind a little as well, to match the move's animation better.
  
• Lower KBG on down throw, to make combo percents last longer.
• Adjust knockback properties on forward throw to make it combo into fair at low percents.
• Reduce the FAF of the initial dash animation. (Same deal as Wii Fit Trainer)
• Gale Strike startup given the same buff as Link's Gale Boomerang- a general lag decrease. (startup 23-19, FAF 78>56)
• Blurring Blade is possibly one of the longest uncharged moves in the game, at 85 FAF. Cut that down. (85>72)
• Make the aerial hits of Hero's Spin connect much better.
• Airborne Assault is like a cross between Flare Blitz and Jolt Haymaker. Make it not have terrible endlag and cause SDs so easily. And it has even worse FAF than Gale Strike! All lag goes down. (FAF 95>75) (startup 32>22) (remove helpless fall if landed on any target including shields and walls. Will actually attack walls now)
• Stone Scabbard is... what even is this move? It causes way too many SDs for what it's worth. Increase the hitbox size, and increase the BKB for a stronger spike.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is the most disappointing Mii, as he's quite bad without customs (still better than Brawler), and he's the worst of the three Miis with Guest XXXX, putting him at low-mid tier in my eyes. He obviously needs some buffs, but I'm not skilled with him, so I'll just agree with what DJBor said (it might be a little over the top, but oh well) as well as add one more:

• Make Sword Scabbard grab the ledge while facing away from it. Since it has no hitbox at the start unlike Brawler's Soaring Axe Kick, it should be able to do something useful on stage, like edgeguarding opponents who recover high without putting the Mii at risk of self-destructing.

Voting for the character ESAM doesn't know how to recover with, .

 

[L9999]

I already expressed my opinions in the PDF on the OP. Nobody really knows SF because he literally has no tournament results and almost no one plays him. I play him (although a little) and I know firsthand he sucks.

is the most disappointing Mii, as he's quite bad without customs (still better than Brawler), and he's the worst of the three Miis with Guest XXXX, putting him at low-mid tier in my eyes. He obviously needs some buffs, but I'm not skilled with him, so I'll just agree with what DJBor said (it might be a little over the top, but oh well) as well as add one more:

• Make Sword Scabbard grab the ledge while facing away from it. Since it has no hitbox at the start unlike Brawler's Soaring Axe Kick, it should be able to do something useful on stage, like edgeguarding opponents who recover high without putting the Mii at risk of self-destructing.

Voting for the character ESAM doesn't know how to recover with, .

DJ isn't exaggerating. SF sucks so hard that he begs for any significant buff.

 

[Zerp]

blablablaSwordfightersucksblablablabuffhimblablabla

Mii Swordfighter results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Zt8iFoSzNRBfgMixIC8LY56bM12EeEiut2STAIOCxjk/viewanalytics
Samus's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/c4jKJdXVPeZ9oTBg2

You may vote for these fellows who do not remember Anthony.

 

[L9999]

Samus is weird. She has a lot of good things going for her yet she kinda blows. I would give her back Brawl Down Tilt, Melee Missiles and Down Smash.

 

[Tizio Random]

I like playing as , she's really fun. I don't know the character very well but, playing as her, I feel buffs to homing missiles and down smash, at least, are warranted.

I vote for

 

[DJBor]

Why does Samus defy the logic of balance? She can't be buffed very well, but she has a really bad matchup chart and sparse player base.
I'll be back later with buffs, because I have no idea what to do to her right now.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

still has some critical flaws that keep her in lower mid tier. Like Palutena, she has a functional moveset overall, but some individual are so bad that they have to be buffed to keep this character relevant:

• Decrease end lag of U-tilt and D-tilt by a few frames so they make up for their very situational uses.
• Why is D-smash so bad? It's basically a worse version of Zelda's, and that's already not too good. Either make it less laggy or significantly increase its knockback.
• Increase knockback of F-throw so she can somewhat kill from a throw.
• EDIT: Decrease landing lag and SDI multiplier of F-air. This move is pretty good when it connects, but it's so easy to escape and punishable on landing that it's still poor.
• Cool, Missiles! If only I could use them without getting punished...

Voting for the Robotic Obliterating Buddy, .

 

[L9999]

still has some critical flaws that keep her in lower mid tier. Like Palutena, she has a functional moveset overall, but some individual are so bad that they have to be buffed to keep this character relevant:

• Decrease end lag of U-tilt and D-tilt by four frames so they make up for their very situational uses.
• Why is D-smash so bad? It's basically a worse version of Zelda's, and that's already not that good. Either make it less laggy or significantly increase its knockback.
• Increase knockback of F-throw so she can somewhat kill from a throw.
• Increase duration of D-air's spike so it's more effective as its own move rather than being outclassed by her other aerials.
• Cool, Missiles! If only I could use them without getting punished...

Voting for the Robotic Obliterating Buddy, .

Zelda's Down Smash is good, fast and a destructive angle. Dair is really useful for Bomb combos. Her other aerials cover what Dair doesn't do.

 

[DJBor]

OK, here we go. In their attempt to completely overhaul Samus, Bandai Namco did a pretty good job, to a point. Samus plays like an outline of a character that could actually be very good. Here's what I propose:

• Remove all knockback growth on Jab 1. Now it always connects.
  
• Double the KBG of down smash (48>96)
• Fix the hitbox of fair to make it harder to SDI, and half its landing lag (24>12)
  
• Final hit of Screw Attack now deals 2 damage. It can actually KO decently now
• Startup of charge shot reduced (16>10)
• Startup and endlag of missiles reduced (homing 18>12 FAF 54>42, super 21>14 FAF 61>46)
• Bomb explosion enlarged, BKB increased (15>20)