The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

"How much does Mewtwo need nerfs in your opinion?"

Should we understand this as "How strongly should he get nerfed" or "How strongly do you believe that he should get nerfed"? If I'm voting 10, am I saying "I want Mewtwo to get nerfed really hard" or "I really want Mewtwo to be nerfed, although perhaps only slightly"?

"How much do you want Mewtwo to get nerfed?"

Same question. Is this "How hard should he get nerfed" or "How strongly to believe Mewtwo should get nerfed at all"?

For the first question it's how hard the user believes Mewtwo should be nerfed, not how much they want him to be nerfed, what I'm basically asking is "how OP is Mewtwo on a scale of 1 through 10", 1 being the least changes to make him not broken, 10 being the most.

The second question is supposed to be purely subjective, it's how much you want Mewtwo to get nerfed on a scale of 1 through 10, not how much you think he should be nerfed.

So, for example, if I think Shrek is ridiculously overpowered but enjoy him in his current state I'd probably give him a 10 on the first question and a 2 or 1 on the second, because I'd think he need plenty of nerfs in a truly balanced game but at the same time I don't really want him to get nerfs because I enjoy playing as him.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has risen dramatically recently, and it's easy to see why: his mobility buffs fixed most of what made him fail as a glass cannon before, and the rest of his tune-ups helped the rest. I'd still like him to be tweaked a little bit to balance him:

• Increase knockback of F-smash (KBG 90/85 --> 105/95). It's currently extremely outclassed by his other smash attacks, and this would help give the move some sort of practical use.
• (optional) Increase grab range. For being a psychic move, it has surprisingly low range.
• (optional) Increase startup of U-smash (frame 9 --> frame 11). It's currently by far his best smash attack and arguably his best kill move for how quick, large-ranged, and powerful it is, and this nerf would also hurt his disable combos slightly.
• Decrease damage of F-air (13 --> 12). It's a bit too good right now with how quick, powerful, and damaging it is, so reducing the damage is a justified change. This would let it combo later, but it wouldn't kill as early, either.

Voting for the princess before her pink-gold accident, .

 

[L9999]

has risen dramatically recently, and it's easy to see why: his mobility buffs fixed most of what made him fail as a glass cannon before, and the rest of his tune-ups helped the rest. I'd still like him to be tweaked a little bit to balance him:

• (optional) Raise weight to 77 (equal to Rosalina). I've never really understood why he needs to be so light given his character, especially lighter than such characters as Kirby, Olima, and Mr. Game & Watch.
• Increase knockback of F-smash (KBG 90/85 --> 105/95). It's currently extremely outclassed by his other smash attacks, and this would help give the move some sort of practical use.
• Increase grab range. For being a psychic move, it has surprisingly low range.
• (optional) Increase startup of U-smash (frame 9 --> frame 11). It's currently by far his best smash attack and arguably his best kill move for how quick, large-ranged, and powerful it is, and this nerf would also hurt his disable combos slightly.
• Decrease damage of F-air (13 --> 12). It's a bit too good right now with how quick, powerful, and damaging it is, so reducing the damage is a justified change. This would let it combo later, but it wouldn't kill as early, either.

Voting for the princess before her pink-gold accident, .

1) You said it yourself, Mewtwo is a glass cannon. Glass cannons are characters with a lot of raw power and speed, but garbage durability. Mewtwo is also kind of a glass cannon in Pokemon, his offensive stats and speed are great, but not so his defenses (but that is Uber tier, M2's stats are too good for other Pokemon). Mewtwo being light and huge is a good thing, so there is hope to kill him.
2) There is no reason to use F-Smash when D-Smash and D-Tilt are better punishers.
3) While Mewtwo has Up Throw, 16% damage throws and top tier mobility? That would be silly.
4) Up Smash was nerfed already.
5) Might agree here, but I say that it was buffed to what it is now to fit with M2's glass cannon design.

My view on Mewtwo is that he doesn't need changes or nerfs. And I think he is a bit overrated. I might sound like 2015 but Mewtwo is too huge to be broken. Mewtwo is like Sheik, except he has more raw power but way less ways to sneak away. He has airdodge and a good recovery, but he is a huge target, his jump is super slow, his rolls are exploitable, his tech options are very bad, his ledge options are not impressive, OoS not impressive too. Every bit of damage counts for Mewtwo, he is not Sheik where she trivializes the game by Needle camp, Bouncing Fish and jumping away. That is the thing, Mewtwo has all those killer options, combos, and projectile camp, but a well placed read or advantage eats Mewtwo alive. I think he is good to go.

I vote as well.

 

[Garo]

Nerf U-smash knockback + range and run speed. Buff grab range and shorten the endlag on F-tilt.

 

[Zerp]

I'm on the fence on whether or not to nerf Mewtwo or keep him as is, he's very strong as a character but it's hard to tell if he's too strong or not, I think I'm leaning towards keeping him as he is now, but I dunno.

buff weight, F-smash, and grab range; nerf U-smash and F-air

Here's Mewtwo's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1VHX9mtgHworbWx2zDnzTTgjRIqThLEH9qCVGreNHbIQ/viewanalytics
and here's Peach's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/KtuI6kCqUjp8eymI3

You may vote for any of these characters:

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has proven herself to be on the fine line between high and high mid through the efforts of Umeki, Samsora, SlayerZ, and Ling Ling among others. I'll call her high mid for now, just so I can justify the two buffs that would make her a major threat:

• (optional) Slightly increase her air speed from 0.95 to 0.99 (tied with, ironically enough, Meta Knight). She has a threatening kit of aerials, and they would define her more as a character if she could get in and use them more.
• Increase range of Toad. For being so weak, it should have some sort of advantage over other counters.

Voting for the character that keeps going up and down on the community voted tier list, .

 

[Zerp]

Ugh, I dislike using the word "potential" because it gets far too much focus as a reason for X character being Y tier and stuff like that, but I really do feel like Peach has decent potential to improve even without buffs, so I'm going to say she's fine as is.

Here's Peach's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Wis8ByqKLlEYiMeQgOoK55hdxFCthVWZ2qQG3FTZ6vI/viewanalytics
Here's Palutena's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/21Bo5NRJwBfh6pN73

You may vote for any of these petty mortals or Gods that act like mortals.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has shown herself to be a functional mid tier. However, several of her moves are still quite bad, so here are my suggested fixes:

• Make F-tilt a multi-hit move. This would make it do a bit more damage as well as pressure shields better.
• Decrease end lag of U-tilt so it's safer and it can start combos.
• Increase shield damage and stun of F-smash and D-smash. For being giant wings that crush things, they're surprisingly safe to shield.
• Increase range of D-air. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to read an air dodge with it but ended up missing the move entirely. It's not like its that powerful or quick, why does it also need to be so tiny?
• Make that goddamn Autoreticle have less end lag. It's laughably bad right now so it deserves some kind of buff, but I've realized that if the shots stayed locked onto the opponent, they might be broken for allowing easy and effective shield pressure.
• Increase range of counter. Like Peach, if it's going to be less powerful, it should be better in some other way, like range.

Voting for another character that people on the tier list thread just can't seem to agree on, .

 

[JayE]

Palutena has some good moves and some bad ones. Her jab is slow but it leads to lots of mixups, she has great down throw combos. Her aerials are pretty good overall - up air is extremely strong. Dair always spikes, which is nice. Bair can be safe if spaced correctly and has invincibility - as well as dash attack. Its just her tilts are pretty bad, smash attacks except for arguably up smash aren't too good, and her counter is like the worst counter.

 

[Zerp]

I was going to write something about Palutena but L1N3R1D3R said it better than I could.

Here's Palutena's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1bClS0K-ZieoPEPSJxX9CV97sh5Dv1EKIqDn9mDjMcZ8/viewanalytics
Here's Pac-Man's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/HFaj7THggOEDFn2a2

You may vote for any of these characters that probably don't make a waka noise.


I vote for .

 

[L9999]

Pac-Man, potential low tier and the biggest fall of grace after Roy. Anything that lets him KO will do the job. His gameplan gets butchered easily and he doesn't have much clutch power. Also, he needs a real grab, not that abhorrent abomination of game programming they called his grab.

I vote my waifu, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is veering closer and closer to low tier as his results have dropped. I think he's still hanging on the lower edge of mid tier, though, and he would be great with just a few changes:

• Decrease overall lag of smash attacks, and make hit 1 of U-smash have a higher angle so opponents can't SDI out of hit 2. I appreciate the knockback buff, but if I can't land the moves in the first place, greater knockback means nothing.
• That damn grab. Why is it so trash for how lackluster his throws are? Decrease its startup and end lag, and remove all its blind spots/inactive frames in the middle.
• D-air is another laughably bad move. Decrease SDI multiplier and landing lag, and change its angle and knockback to a soft spike (like Kirby's D-air) so it has a unique use over his other moves.
• Fix the glitch with side-B that makes him bounce ridiculously far back if he accidentally hits a corner (as opposed to the short bounce back from a floor or a wall). I have no clue why this hasn't been addressed yet, as it's existed since launch and it appears to be a programming flaw.

Voting for some generic joke involving tippers, .

 

[Zerp]

My connection's terrible right now, I'll edit in something about Pac-Man later.

Here's Pac-Man's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1toVQu2kOBjk677hDNIDVewNCjL8WAXkft5NrQzfnNXc/viewanalytics
Here's Marth's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/sB80JdE5GncUA6zz1

You may vote for any of these characters that wish they were as fabulous as Marth.


I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is either at the top of high tier or at the bottom of top tier. Either way, he's quite well balanced because he needs precision to do well, but a few players like Mr. E and MKLeo are placing extremely high. Before now I've always thought that he needed a few buffs, but even though D-air is quite unbalanced in terms of risk versus reward, it's still decent, and he can kill well regardless. He doesn't need changes.

Voting for one of the few characters that still needs nerfs, .

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like Marth to have a few things:

• Dancing Blade's knockback values reverted to Brawl's, so the move consistently connects at all percents. Less endlag on hit 1.
• Altered knockback on fthrow and a better angle for it to combo up to mid percents.
• Dthrow made into a tech chase throw similar to Brawl's.
• Hitbox fixes on jab, nair and other moves.
• Dair to be usable somehow.

 

[Andymatronic]

Marth is already top-tier on many tier lists, if you really want him to be buffed like that, then suggest a few nerfs

I'd like Marth to have a few things:

• Dancing Blade's knockback values reverted to Brawl's, so the move consistently connects at all percents. Less endlag on hit 1.
• Altered knockback on fthrow and a better angle for it to combo up to mid percents.
• Dthrow made into a tech chase throw similar to Brawl's.
• Hitbox fixes on jab, nair and other moves.
• Dair to be usable somehow.

 

[Zerp]

Marth's great as is, I personally consider him one of the best high tiers, and I can see him being Top Tier as well, he doesn't need any changes imo.

Also, I think he's Puff's worst/2nd worst MU, I'm honestly kind of terrified that they'll buff him in the next game/port due to demand, which will increase his popularity and make it even harder to get results as Jigglypuff. ;-;

Here's Marth's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1gGYJhnRcVAo8HjFxGjAx8rrRRMZQ4yG9MzER-BzeDGI/viewanalytics
Here's Luigi's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/4OemBZ56Tjf4eHot2

You may vote for any of these characters that have a slightly lower chance to get exactly 2nd place than Luigi.

I vote for Didz.

 

[Axel311]

Luigi I think is fine. He's a very balanced character, one of the most balanced in the game in my opinion. Clear strengths and clear weaknesses. He is to a large extent delegitimized by Mario but as a Mario main myself I think they need to fix that by slightly nerfing Mario to differentiate the two instead of buffing Luigi.

I'll also vote , likely the best character in the game currently.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I mostly agree with Axel311 in that is pretty much balanced, but I'd still like to see one more buff to a legitimately bad move:

• Greatly decrease end lag of (non-misfired) Green Missile. His recovery while great in terms of distance is lackluster mostly due to this move and Luigi Cyclone being easily punishable at the end, and his air speed is so low that he can't always rely on Super Jump Punch. If Green Missile had much less end lag, it would make up for its low travel speed and loss of momentum on contact or at the end of its animation, as well as give it some sort of use outside of recovery.

Voting for the barrel technician, .

 

[Garo]

Offstage Luigi Tornado is a bit too strong at destroying recoveries and gimping opponents I feel, and I doubt that's even it's intended function. I would make it so that you can't fall out of it before the final hit.

 

[Zerp]

I think Luigi is pretty much perfect, he's the best role model in-game of how to balance a character that's good at X and bad at Y instead of just being a jack-of-all-trades imo.

Here's Luigi's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1nEcaNl-lNYDDiAIa6FbW90SAGPUzp0On_WTJhlq9WQc/viewanalytics
Here's Diddy Kong's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/UXSbvVyUa7QyjXuj2

You may vote for any of these characters that have a slightly lower chance to get exactly 1st place in a tournament than Diddy Kong.


I vote for

 

[Axel311]

Alright so I've played a ton against a high level Diddy and while I don't main or secondary the character myself I have played him on the side a little just to learn the matchup better.

I do feel he's one of the characters that needs a bit of a nerf. His neutral is so overwhelming against most of the cast and he has +2 or +3 matchups with most characters even though he goes even or maybe loses to 3-5 characters. I understand that he is a neutral based character so I wouldn't want to change that by taking away options perse, he's supposed to have an amazing neutral, just make Diddy have to win neutral more times in order to get the kill. Some kind of knockback reduction on his smashes/uptilt and/or damage reduction on his bread and butter combos I think would be justified. Right now he's very low risk/medium reward. Really should be more like low reward considering how safe the character is.

There's other routes you could go with Diddy. You could take away options...such as uptilt killing at high percents and dtilt to upsmash as a kill confirm. You could add a cooldown on barrels to make him easier to gimp. But 2 years in I feel it's better to keep the character the same as he is, just make him have to work harder doing the things he already does.

But I'm of the theory that pretty much all the top 10 need a bit of toning down so that's my opinion from that viewpoint. It's not just Diddy who I think needs a bit of a nerf so I don't have bias towards him specifically.

voting

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is still a dominant threat in the meta game, the best character in the game in my opinion, so I want to nerf his two moves that are unnecessarily too good:

• Greatly increase knockback of D-tilt so it stops comboing earlier. He already has Banana to do setups for him, he doesn't need this move as well.
• Make F-air's autocancel frames start later. The fact that it can autocancel from a short hop fast fall is ridiculous for its disjointed range, damage, and decent knockback.

Voting for the opposite side of the tier list, .

 

[L9999]

. No changes. Someone has to be top tier in this game and counterplay exists. Stealing his banana and doing makeshift combos, edgeguarding him, abusing his terrible airspeed, camp2win, and having patience (although he busts it in 10 seconds). He also has very little raw power. His KO confirms can be DIed and playing campy you won't get caught in banana, Bair/Fair get stale super fast, Up Tilt kills but is kinda lame, and his kill throws kill too late and only on the edge. The characters that he destroys just suck against him, period, even if you nerfed Diddy () and he has his share of bad MUs ((EZ pockets)). Down Tilt and Foward Air may be silly, but let's grateful it is not release Diddy.

I vote Bleach, sorry, .

 

[Zerp]

I feel like Diddy Kong's D-tilt and F-air are a little too good, everything else is fineish.

Here's Diddy Kong's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uwVgPatPhzBQwercxkKvf09ddSP7jal1iFocwj30qHE/viewanalytics
Here's Mario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/i28F1KYezcJKBcGa2

You may vote for any of these goombas.

I vote for Mario's "rival", .

 

[Axel311]

I main Mario and I think making his upsmash kill 5-10% later would be fair. With its amazing frame data, invuln frames, and range it should be a weaker smash in terms of knockback. I'd rather do that than add lag, which would change the character too much in a 2 year old game. Other than Upsmash he's fine.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is almost perfectly balanced, except of course that U-smash needs some toning down:

• Increase startup of U-smash by 1 frame and end lag by 5 frames. It already has invincibility, great range, no sourspot, and great power, why does it also need to be his least laggy smash? (D-smash comes out earlier but has more end lag, btw.)

Voting for the top tier with a bottom tier franchise, .

 

[Zerp]

I also share the opinion that is pretty balanced with exception to his U-Smash, nerf that and he'll be golden.

Here's Mario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mZXvkVm_X1tJ11C2mkXA8ajkvWjy3CuQGccUz4bdNYM/viewanalytics
Here's Sonic's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/JMuUbVNQVOUm24Q33

Spoiler: GOTTA GO FAST!

You may vote for any of these people who couldn't go fast enough.


I vote for

 

[Mega-Spider]

When it comes to balancing , I'm not sure what to think of. I mean, the biggest offender he had, his B-Throw, was severely nerfed in one of the earliest updates, and he did have a couple of minor nerfs here and there, but beyond the B-Throw nerf, Sonic hasn't really changed much.

• I guess the only thing that Sonic would still need to be toned down in is weaken a bit more of his KO options. I feel like U-Smash would be better as a damage tool than a kill option.

Voting for the Super Tough Pink Buff

 

[Axel311]

What really should be targeting with Sonic is making him more offensive. I'm not sure that making him weaker perse is required, just tweak the character so he isn't so inclined to camp. Reducing Sonic's invinc frames on spindash is what he really needs. Or maybe give the invinc frames some kind of cooldown so he loses them if he starts repeating the same moves over and over. If in return he needs some boost to his upclose moves to help him not drop down the tier list majorly, that's fine.

voting

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is considered one of the most annoying characters to watch, and with how fantastic Spin Dash is, that's understandable. I feel like it should be toned down a little bit:

• Reduce super armor on Spin Dash. It can be released or canceled at any time, it travels fast and unexpectedly, and it sets up for huge combos and kill setups. Without super armor, it's still really hard to predict, but it would help certain characters have a chance against him, namely projectile users.

Voting for the pink puffball that almost eliminated Mr. R at Pound 2016, .

 

[L9999]

Nerf SpinDash invicibility. Congratulations, Sanic is now slightly more tolerable.

When it comes to balancing , I'm not sure what to think of. I mean, the biggest offender he had, his B-Throw, was severely nerfed in one of the earliest updates, and he did have a couple of minor nerfs here and there, but beyond the B-Throw nerf, Sonic hasn't really changed much.

• I guess the only thing that Sonic would still need to be toned down in is weaken a bit more of his KO options. I feel like U-Smash would be better as a damage tool than a kill option.

Up Smash was nerfed already.

I vote the biggest letdown in Smash 4 history

 

[Zerp]

I think we should reduce Spin Dash's invulnerability, I'm so original.

Here's Sonic's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1E-NQjDX5BisnC1BuHbvInBKQ80agnma0yjQ2omGpyXE/viewanalytics
Here's Kirby's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/kA1nJbCx4VaPFeXX2

You may vote for any of these people who may or may not need a monster to clobber Kirby.

I vote for , the other pink puff.

 

[Axel311]

Kirby needs better airspeed for sure, and possibly ground speed as well. The character is already very light and has no range. No reason to make him the worst approacher arguably in the game as well. Other than that I think Kirby is fine. Kirby has fine tools up close and off stage, but just has trouble utilizing them because he gets walled out way too easily.

voting

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Oh, , if only you were faster, then your buffs would actually mean something...

• Increase air speed to at least 0.9. I know he's not that fast in his games, but his current air speed is laughably bad and the main reason why he's quite lacking.
• Do something with the abomination of game design that is dash attack.
• Decrease end lag of N-air, as it's not even that fast and it causes SD's surprisingly easily.
• Decrease end lag of U-air so it can juggle and combo better.
• Decrease end lag of Hammer Flip, Final Cutter, and (optionally) Stone so they have more use for offense.

Voting for Bigfoo--I mean, .

 

[(>´u´)>]

I use kirby the most but i think that the stone and cutter should have faster end lag, because it is annoying when you take a few unavoidable hits while transforming. Thats when people are most likely to launch me.

Other than that his move sets are pretty good.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Oh, , if only you were faster, then your buffs would actually mean something...

• Increase air speed to at least 0.9. I know he's not that fast in his games, but his current air speed is laughably bad and the main reason why he's quite lacking.
• Do something with the abomination of game design that is dash attack.
• Decrease end lag of N-air, as it's not even that fast and it causes SD's surprisingly easily.
• Decrease end lag of U-air so it can juggle and combo better.
• Decrease end lag of Hammer Flip, Final Cutter, and (optionally) Stone so they have more use for offense.

Voting for Bigfoo--I mean, .

Was that whole "abomination of game design" really necessary? I don't know, I just hate exaggerations.
I agree with all of this, though I will add that Final Cutter's shockwave go faster and further (maybe Needles length).

 

[Zerp]

I'll edit in my thoughts on Kirby.
Here's Kirby's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Nfci-F9xSZVBahJp4e5TjhSWIwgcCwOAv03pJOGnpoM/viewanalytics
Here's Donkey Kong's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Upai5ESTlxku6BaF3
You may vote for any of these people who are not the leader of the bunch.


I vote for

 

[Garo]

Don't really see anything worth changing with DK. He's one of the more balanced characters.
Vote for

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Personally, I just want his Side-B to a little faster or break shields in one go.