The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[(>´u´)>]

Dk is already perfect in my opinion. Why would he need to be changed?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'll stand by my opinion that is perfectly balanced, but in one of the most polarizing ways possible. His Ding Dong is ridiculous and should be slightly nerfed, but to compensate he should have other tools buffed:

• Decrease damage of cargo U-throw to 8.5%, and increase knockback numbers slightly to mimic what it is now. This would keep its followups but make them do slightly less damage, and it would also slightly decrease the hit stun so F-air isn't guaranteed and the Ding Dong will have a stricter window. I feel this is a fair nerf that addresses what makes the throw crazy while still keeping it great.
• Give U-smash a scoop hitbox. Why this U-smash doesn't scoop while ones like Pac-Man's and especially Marcina's do is beyond me, considering that DK's animation resembles a scoop the most and is near useless without it.
• Slightly decrease end lag of D-smash and Headbutt. Like Palutena's F- and D-smash, these moves look like they would be devastating when they're actually quite safe to shield (provided that it doesn't break in the case of Headbutt).
• Why does Giant Punch put him into free fall, again? It already has enough end lag without it...

Voting for "another generic anime swordsman", .

 

[Axel311]

I think DK deserves a few buffs, as he's around middle of the pack currently:

- Give nair a bigger hitbox. It's really silly how small the hitbox on it is and it would help him with his biggest weakness, landing.

- Make DK punch not put him in freefall. Why does it put him in freefall yet Cloud's limit break doesn't? There's absolutely no reason for it.

Ding dong is fine. He needs it to be competitive, without it he's low tier trash who would have no chance against the top tiers. It is polarizing, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't see anything wrong with a character having that niche as a grappler. DK is kind of the Zangief of Smash 4. A character that big who struggles to approach and is walled out badly against projectiles should get a lot of reward when he gets in.

voting

 

[JayE]

DK's Ding dong is what makes him really threatening with his grab, and the amazing range his pivot grab has. I mean, he does have big hands lol

 

[L9999]

Not going to repeat myself. Scoop, freefall, anything that makes his landing less horrid.

 

[Zerp]

Nitpicky but I'd like it if DK's neutral B didn't make him helpless mid-air, other than that I think he should just get a few all-around buffs.

Here's Donkey Kong's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PRsPYpbmJi0rQmippX4yNpobd1KppK6xDrGIHgTfOms/viewanalytics
Here's Cloud's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/rQL2S8X5oa3ELFWq1

You may vote for any of these people whose hair isn't as spiky and cool as Cloud's.

I vote for , because he has a even better hairstyle than Cloud.

 

[L9999]

Cloud. Not being able to take limit while hitting him. Makes it less tedious to fight against Cloud, so you can hit him and don't fear he will get limit when you gimp him or you are in advantage.

I vote the disappointment of my life Mii Swordspider.

 

[Garo]

I think Cloud needs a few nerfs.

- U-air and D-air hitboxes should be active for a shorter duration.
- U-air hitbox should be made smaller so that the hitbox is only above Cloud.
- Limit gauge should take longer to fill, at least when manually charged.
- Limit Cross Slash should probably get some kind of nerf. I don't have a problem with it personally, but I've seen many complain about it.
As a little buff they should also get rid of the untechable frames during Climhazzard. I doubt that's by design.

Vote for

 

[(>´u´)>]

I believe that should be nerfed.

Not saying that i personally want him changed. Because i like the challenge and and all, but i will suport those who do.

My friend mains clound and i like challenging him and cloud is the best challenge for a fan like me.

 

[(>´u´)>]

I Vote for because he wears a hat to hide his fabulous styles from being stolen.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is at a great level of viability, but like Mario, it's annoying that he's so much easier to play than most characters as good as him. My nerf suggestions:

• Make autocancel frames of U-air start later. Like with Diddy's F-air, this move is so disjointed and damaging that it shouldn't also autocancel in a short hop fast fall.
• Decrease active frames of weak D-air. I'm fine with it autocanceling in a full hop, but when it autocancels one frame after its last hitbox, you have a ridiculous move.
• Decrease damage (and thus knockback and shield stun) of final hit of Limit Cross Slash, and slightly increase end lag.

Voting for Jimmy Neutro--er, .

 

[Axel311]

Biggest problem with Cloud is he is too easy to play for how good he is, and that invalidates most of the roster. Because why put effort into other characters when you can just play Cloud and get better results with half the effort?

So while I'm not sure Cloud is top 3, I think he needs a nerf for the good of the scene and for the good of character diversity.

I'd target limit camping. Increase end lag of down B a bit so the character so he can't limit camp as well. Everyone hates limit camping - players and spectators.

He also just needs more lag -

His upair and nair need a small lag increase for sure. Just jumping and pressing the A button is too braindead and good.

I think it would be fair to decrease the knockback of his smashes, or add more lag to them. He already has limit side B for killing, having such good smashes seems like overkill.

Also I agree with rearranging limit charge so he doesn't get it when hit. Knocking him offstage just to give him limit is silly. You can make him get more limit upon hitting the opponent in return. Keep it at the same level it is currently, don't nerf it, just shift the portion he gets from getting hit to him hitting opponents.

I'd like Cloud to be high tier, having a character so easy to play is fine. But I hate such a basic character being top tier, just not good for the scene.

voting

 

[Zerp]

Increase lag in general, make his limit less obnoxious blablabla you've already heard it before.

Here's Cloud's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19LqFBwJzYJrz8CRyUg2oyhpdvuTV3zWlT8_uHPbqvUQ/viewanalytics
Here's Dedede's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/SkQoIVvc9y8rBtVf1

You may vote for any of these imperfect characters.

I vote for , the least perfect of all

 

[Garo]

Dedede's definitely in need of some buffs. Most of the various nerfs were uncalled for, although I remember having some trouble against him myself in the early days of the game.

- Make Gordo withstand a percent or two more damage without being sent back.
- Increase air speed.
- Make jab 1 come out and transition faster.
- Make it so that opponents can't fall out of f-tilt.
- Fix the various hitbox oddities (at least d-tilt and u-smash had these IIRC).

Vote for

 

[Axel311]

Dedede is a character that needs a kill throw or some kind of kill setup. I don't understand the balance decisions with him compared to other super heavyweights. DK gets ding dong and a good kill throw and Dedede gets nothing?

Also fix his hitboxes, bair especially, so they match the hitboxes.

Increase hitstun on his jab so it links more consistently

Decrease end lag on inhale, or add more damage to improve the risk/reward ratio

Reduced start up on dair

Increase knockback on fair - move is too laggy and has too small a hitbox to be so weak

Jet Hammer needs a complete overhaul. But since that won't happen, I suppose you could atleast give it super armor, so it would be useful for landing. Sort of like how Zard uses boulder for landing.

voting

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, nerfed unfairly for being Perfection Incarnate. Was he too good or something?

• Revert every single nerf. None of them were warranted in any way.
• Fix all hitboxes and blind spots. For having a giant hammer, his range can be surprisingly short where you wouldn't expect them to be.
• Further increase air speed (0.658 --> 0.72), so it's still the worst but at least usable.
• Decrease overall lag of jab. He needs some way to start a punish from far considering his range, but when jab comes out this slowly, that's extremely hard.
• D-air needs some sort of buff. Decrease landing lag and startup preferably, but increasing the range of the spike hitbox would also help.
• Another crappy move in his arsenal is Jet Hammer. Give it super armor on the initial frames of the swing itself and decrease its end lag so it's worth using over literally any other move.

Voting for Zero Soul's waifu, .

 

[(>´u´)>]

I wish Dedede had faster end lag. Also his side smash is just too slow to be useful.

What would be nice.
- faster side smash.
- shorter end lag.
- faster running speed.
Thank you smash community for voting last time you really made my day. I didnt think anyone would pick him. Was certain would win.

Vote for Kirby's long lost brother .

 

[Zerp]

Voting for Zero Soul's waifu, .

Are you seriously implying my waaifu isn't ?

Anyway, King Dedede didn't deserve any of his nerfs, the fact that he got nerfed in the first place makes me wonder if they use For Glory data for balance tweaks, which would be pretty strange but I could see that being the case. Regardless, it'd be great if in the (hypothetical) next patch/port/whatever he either gets less laggy all around or starts getting better reward for his lag, preferably a bit of both, and if his Gordo was just a teensy bit more resistant. Also, fix his hitboxes please.

Here's King Dedede's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QPMa1THmgKhePB59zh2uVfb5fgh-u0bKSk8YpEULY5Y/viewanalytics
Here's Jigglypuff's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/mioHCCUATJDVMcAC3

You may vote for any of these characters that are more likely to get buffed in patch 1.1.7 than Jigglypuff.


I vote for

 

[Garo]

Jiggly's surely in need of some buffs.

- Make Smash attacks and tilts faster overall. Less startup and less endlag for most.
- Make Sing and it's variations unblockable.
- Make Rest always cause either a star or screen KO.
Supposedly she needs more range too. I'm fine with that, but only if they make her limbs bulge accordingly. Not a big fan of hitboxes that extend beyond the visuals.

Vote for

 

[Axel311]

I think taking the glass cannon approach is a good one for jiggs. Give her some true setups into rest at kill percents at some sort of window. Upthrow to rest seems a bit cheesy, maybe give her fast fall upair to rest or dair to rest as true combos at certain death percent windows. Tweak the knockback growth of those moves accordingly.

Make every rest KO the long death animation so she's never punished for landing a rest kill

Make her bair even stronger in knockback, and increase her damage a bit overall on all aerials

Decrease end lag a bit on pound

Increase ground speed a bit

One thing I don't want changed is her weight or shield break KO mechanic. It makes her unique as a character...like I said keep her as glass. But give her the cannon she deserves.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

#BuffThePuff

• Increase range on every single physical attack by 5-10%. This would help her biggest issue right now, as it would slightly help her atrocious ground game and make her air game one of the best like it should be.
• Decrease end lag of D-tilt, which would be a good poking and gimping tool if it were quicker.
• Decrease end lag of F-smash and D-smash. Why are they so easy to punish for how relatively weak they are? Oh, I know: because Jigglypuff.
• Increase damage (and thus knockback and shield stun/damage) of U-smash. I could have lumped this with her other smashes, but this one in particular is so weak that I felt the need to improve that instead.
• Make one throw kill and another combo well. All of her throws are currently "positioning" throws, which sucks because her grab is so tiny that she should get reward from it.
• For Rollout, remove the tiny spin that does nothing and the pseudo-free fall state after hitting someone in the air. It's already hard enough to land, why does it need these flaws as well?
• Make Sing not trigger counters, and make the overall animation faster. Why use it if it can be countered, or even punished on hit?
• Make Rest blast KO or star KO when it should. Need I explain this terrible design choice again?

Voting for the snake charmer, .

 

[L9999]

Gave my opinion on the OP. I vote .

 

[Zerp]

What Jigglypuff really needs (outside of acknowledgement of it's existence by the Dev Team) imo is to be threatening again outside of just Rest, it's various set-ups, and the wall of pain. Throws don't need to be amazing but at least one of them should either kill reasonably early or allow Jigglypuff to combo off of it, Jigglypuff's attacks in general need to either deal more damage against shield or be safer against shield, and Sing/Rollout shouldn't be so useless.

Also, while I don't want to dwell on Rest itself, you really shouldn't be punished for landing a killing Rest, it should either be set to always Star K.O. on kill, or preferably (and unrealistically) Blast K.O. when offstage and only Star K.O. when above the stage and/or onstage, so you don't get punished for dying before your opponent does with offstage Rests as well.

Here's Jigglypuff's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NeECWoEZlF_nLhfVvDa3nMnvpHzUwupkhute0OvF0cE/viewanalytics
Here's Lucas's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/72Uv2mcbWUuboC2h2

You may vote for any of these characters:

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

it should either be set to always Star K.O. or preferably (and unrealistically) Star K.O. above and/or onstage

I think there's a typo here...

Anyway, onto . Honestly, I wouldn't change much right now, he's on the high end of upper mid. I can only think of 3 things:

• Increase knockback of U-smash. Why they made it weaker from Brawl but kept the insane lag confuses me.
• Decrease SDI multiplier of N-air and D-air so they're much more consistent. Not like they're broken moves, anyway...
• EDIT: You already know what's dumb about PK Freeze...

Voting for a character who can brag to Lucas that he has a mother, .

 

[Axel311]

Lucas doesn't need much, he's very solid already. Perhaps a bit of lag reduction to upsmash. Other than that, I think he's fine.

 

[EeveeTMI]

DK is pretty good, though I would fix his recovery though...

 

[Zerp]

All I want for Lucas is a slight Up-Smash buff, make it faster or stronger, I don't care which.

Here's Lucas's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1pyl7DghgyZhawuJYBIUAeHQ0UkXMjNddGthEwVgMxwE/viewanalytics
Here's Ness's Poll: https://goo.gl/forms/XyX0NUftFom3TvIq1

You may vote for any of these characters that may or may not secretly want to steal Ness's hat for themselves.


I vote for

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I've always thought that was vastly overrated, and that he is in fact in high mid tier with Lucas, who I've thought was underrated. And luckily, with the way that recent results have gone, with people like FOW dropping greatly and people like Taiheita rising greatly, this view seems very reasonable. Sure, Ness can rack up damage and kill early, but when his game plan is so linear with an unsafe approach and a very gimpable recovery, both of which Lucas notably improves on while not sacrificing that much in damage racking and killing, how can you put Ness above Lucas?

To balance Ness, he should get a slight nerf to the ridiculous moves everyone complains about while getting buffs to a few worse moves to balance it out:

• Slightly decrease knockback of B-throw and PK Thunder 2 so they kill about 10% later. They would still be fantastic, but not nearly as broken as they can be now.
• Slightly increase knockback of F-tilt and U-smash, which are pitifully weak for no real reason right now.
• Make D-air have less end lag. I like how it has high startup so it can fool enemies into dodging too early, but when it's also so punishable, that use is mitigated.
• Seriously, why does PK Flash cause helplessness? (Forgot to mention this for Lucas's PK Freeze, whoops!)
• Do something with the knockback properties of certain moves so that they kill Luma better. The RosaLuma matchup is atrocious for Ness at the moment, so hopefully this would make it better.

Voting for a witch who doesn't make weird potions in cauldrons, .

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Is a peculiar case. He's seen as balanced he has insane kill power but at the same time can literally die after getting thrown off stage once. I suggest a few buffs

Recovery- I know you can't just make the whole PKT2 invincible or the thunder ball like Lucas' as it will lose it's amazing utility so what I suggest is that PKT2 not lose distance when someone jumps into it this is silly that it happens given the million other ways you can gimp Ness. Also fix the left wall for whatever reason it's much harder to get the angle you need to PK ThunderBounce off if for no good reason. As much as I want Ness' PKT2 to go farther the only reason I don't suggest it is because his recovery is supposed to be "bad"

As far as his moveset goes it's relatively fine. I think increasing the size of his Fair hit box a small bit and improving his ground and air speed a bit will help Ness not get walled out so easily by disjoints and eaten alive by swords.

Change these few things and I'm fine with Up Smash being useless, Ftilt being used only as a accidental input and Up tilt having literally no horizontal reach lol.

Oh I'll vote for as well

 

[Geoff_944]

I understand where you guys are going, ness is overrated, but should we really buff his attacks that shouldn't be buffed, in my opinion UpSmash kills just fine, also, You can just auto-cancel DAir, I think PK Flash should have more *ahem* fluid movement, you can't really control it atm..

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I understand where you guys are going, ness is overrated, but should we really buff his attacks that shouldn't be buffed, in my opinion UpSmash kills just fine, also, You can just auto-cancel DAir, I think PK Flash should have more *ahem* fluid movement, you can't really control it atm..

1. His U-smash is the weakest in the game, killing even later than ZSS's.

2. For onstage game, yes, autocancels and landing lag are fine. But for offstage, where it's already not too good, end lag means more, and it's currently pretty bad for D-air.

3. Yes, I would also appreciate if PK Flash controlled better. The freefall is just the more pertinent issue now.

 

[Axel311]

I think Ness is fine. He's one of the more balanced characters. Yeah, bthrow is insane but that's his niche as a character and it is balanced out by his bad recovery.

Not quite bad enough to be deserving of buffs though. IMO high tier is where we should be balancing around. If Ness gets anything in buffs it should be minor, he's already a threat at supernationals as FOW has shown in the past.

Voting

 

[Zerp]

I think Ness is fine as is, yay.

Here's Ness's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/12mEY3tQLwluP8xjvtNH8W9omqhLH_cddvRSTfRRANAk/viewanalytics
Here's Bayonetta's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/WfNx6Ss06Aj8MiGF2
You may vote for any of these characters that may or may not be plotting a witch hunt.


I vote for .

 

[Garo]

Bayo's definitely in need of some nerfs. I'd want the hitboxes on Witch Twist and After Burner Kick to be smaller since their size makes her incredibly hard to edgeguard, but if that means that her combos don't connect as intended anymore then forget about this. Making endlag a bigger hindrance for her would also be good. Landing lag after long aerial strings should be longer than currently (maybe even more so if you try to cover your landing with an aerial) and whiffed WT and ABK should leave her more open.
E: Vote for

 

[Axel311]

Rant incoming. I get really salty about this character, much more than any other. So I may be biased but -

I really think Bayo needs a solid 2nd round of nerfs. Salem has been showing how good she is, and she is going to keep climbing up the tier list. Many top players are now saying she's #1. I think she's top 3 personally.

I really think Bayo's up B hitboxes need to be shrunk further. They shouldn't just auto beat everything. It's just so ridiculous that the character just ignores the entire edgeguarding aspect of the game and gets the ledge for free. If you could actually edgeguard her, she wouldn't be so bad. But she just has almost no disadvantaged state it seems.

And her kill throw needs to go. She has witch time for kills. Not to mention bair, dair up Bs ladder combos to upair, fair chains off the side. She doesn't need it. Her having a kill throw when she has a kill move as broken as witch time, but duck hunt, dedede and puff not having one is just ridiculous.

Her insane damage output needs to be reduced. For example - Jab does 22%? why does she need that? I just don't see how it is balanced with her combo game as good as it is, someone convince me.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is a pretty controversial character, as even after her nerfs she's still quite a fearsome competitor worthy of top tier. I would honestly nerf her a bit more, but do something to compensate:

• Decrease end lag of F-tilt. This move sticks out like a sore thumb in her arsenal of otherwise really good moves.
• Slightly increase end lag of U-tilt, U-air, and B-air. Why are they so safe and combo so easily when they already do great damage and come out quickly?
• This might be controversial, but I want Dive Kick's angle to be raised a bit in exchange for it not bouncing as much off shields. This would give her some of her combos back while hindering her neutral, giving her the archetype of unsafe but dangerous that she should have had since launch.

Voting for the King of Unhelpful Buffs, .

 

[Geoff_944]

There is one subject that is underrated ALOT. <- Little Mac. I believe that the community has really named him as "horrible" even though I think he is a solid character. A few things I would change are
1. Give the air moves more knockback. These moves are horrible knockback wise and if the knockback was better, I believe he would be more solid.
2. Give him a better double jump. I get it, ok. He's not an air fighter. That doesn't mean give him a sucky double jump. They should give him a small boost in his jump.
3. Make him able to have more fluid air movement. His air movement is REALLY bad, if they sped up his air movement a little, I feel he would be more viable as a tournament character and people can see him for who he is. An air fighter.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'd just like to tell people who appear to be new here how this thread works:

Every day, a character is elected. Zero Soul will make a post that has the poll results of the previous day's character, a new poll for the current character, and a list of the characters that have not been discussed this round. He will also change the thread title to include the current character. Generally, your posts should discuss the current character, addressing their strengths, weaknesses, and personal tier placement as any changes you would make to the character to balance them, and then at the end vote for a character that haven't yet been discussed yet for the next day.

It is recommended that you wait until it is their turn to discuss a character. If you absolutely must talk about a character other than the current one, at least make a quick remark about the current character, like "I don't know what to say about Bayonetta, by the way," so we know you're not purposefully derailing the topic.

Today, we are discussing Bayonetta. If you'd like to talk about someone else, vote for them after discussing Bayonetta, and if the majority votes for them, then they will be discussed tomorrow!

Thanks for your cooperation!

 

[Geoff_944]

Ok. It's my first time on here in over a year so I forgot how things worked.

 

[Zerp]

I think Bayonetta needs nerfs that make her much less safe, she should be high risk high reward, but she's more low risk high reward as of now, which I don't really like. I'd be fine with giving her compensation buffs in the combo and power departments to make up for it but only if she becomes less safe overall.

buff F-tilt, nerf U-tilt, U-air, and B-air, rebalance Dive Kick

Bayonetta's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1wUCE2H4eGWrrETqSwkoyyzrCWIbX1QtA7bFUFdCZO6s/viewanalytics
Ganondorf's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/j8eIvUkuhSuXRXZ83

You may vote for any of these characters that wish they were immortal.


I vote for