The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Garo]

My suggested buffs for Ganondorf:

• Increase grab range. I'd honestly prefer a new grab animation (something akin to Ike's). His current one seems to be a remnant of his clone status, except it's much worse because of Ganondorf's slower speed when compared to Falcon.
• Decrease the startup of dash grab and the endlag of dash and pivot grab.
• Make up throw kill at 150 - 170% or so.
• Increase air speed a little bit.
• Increase the knockback of Dark Dive's grab attack, change the knockback angle to a more horizontal one and speed up the ending animation on hit.
• Remove the sourspot on the first hit of Down Smash, make it link better and increase the shield stun of the first hit.
• Increase double jump height.
• Add a landing hitbox on forward air.
• Add super armour frames to the aerial variations of Warlock Punch.

Vote for

 

[Axel311]

Dorf is one character I feel is impossible to balance properly, the way he is designed now. He's really not designed for 1v1, he's designed to have flaws that are exploitable. He's kinda viable in melee because he's not designed so far in that direction. But in smash 4 he is, which is why none of his buffs have really helped.

So what can they do further? I guess the one thing they could do is make his up B better - give it more distance. I really don't see them uping his speed, damage or frame data since he's already a monster at low level play and that would make him more unbalanced with low skill levels. Besides, that would homogenize the character. So overall I'd want to see buffs that improve his disadvantaged state, instead of making his punish game even more ridiculous.

voting

 

[Crystanium]

My suggested buffs for Ganondorf:

• Increase grab range. I'd honestly prefer a new grab animation (something akin to Ike's). His current one seems to be a remnant of his clone status, except it's much worse because of Ganondorf's slower speed when compared to Falcon.
• Decrease the startup of dash grab and the endlag of dash and pivot grab.
• Make up throw kill at 150 - 170% or so.
• Increase air speed a little bit.
• Increase the knockback of Dark Dive's grab attack, change the knockback angle to a more horizontal one and speed up the ending animation on hit.
• Remove the sourspot on the first hit of Down Smash, make it link better and increase the shield stun of the first hit.
• Increase double jump height.
• Add a landing hitbox on forward air.
• Add super armour frames to the aerial variations of Warlock Punch.

Vote for

Ganondorf's grab is probably poor because he can already grab with his forward B. That is actually a moving grab. I'm not saying Ganondorf shouldn't have a better grab. I'm only presenting a possible reason as to why he has a poor grab. I really cannot think of a way Ganondorf can be improved unless his moveset was changed.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Clearly is quite lacking in everything, even after his plentiful buffs. But this is because they still haven't addressed his biggest problem that's keeping him back:

• Slightly increase all movement speed. This would help his atrocious recovery, poor approach, and followup ability. It's not like he's slow in Zelda games, why does he need to be the slowest overall character in Smash?

Honestly I would be happy if Ganondorf just got that single buff. I would still like to see more, though:

• Make U-tilt and Warlock Punch actually useful for something. Of all his lackluster moves, these are clearly the two worst.
• (optional) Slightly decrease lag of grab. For how slow he is and how small it is, does it need the same lag as Falcon's?
• Somewhat increase damage (and thus knockback) of B-throw and U-throw. He needs more reward for his bad grab.
• Significantly increase knockback of Dark Dive (both the punch and the grab). For some reason they decided to make his up-B both weaker AND worse at recovering than Falcon's, which was completely unnecessary.

Voting for a character that I have recently thought of a brilliant way to balance, .

 

[Zerp]

Rush rush

Here's Ganondorf's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18wOlRdFBNu9frhhmoSAULSG_hsnLsyd2WZ0KTCDEpAc/viewanalytics
Rosalina's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/ZiEdUE3UjyuANjR62

You may vote for any of these characters that secretly wish they were a space witch.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Rosalina is pretty broken, and even though she's been historically one of my better characters (though possibly no longer #2 since I got Cloud), I wouldn't mind seeing her nerfed. In fact, in a hypothetical Smash 5, I wouldn't mind seeing Rosalina and Luma as separate characters. They would be semi-clones, with Star Spin as their Neutral-B, Rosalina getting a new Side-B, and Luma getting a new Up-B, Down-B, and grab. But for balance changes as they are, here's what I'd suggest.

Decrease Luma's HP, but increase its weight. This would help to balance out Rosa's match-ups (as far as Luma goes) between combo characters and heavy-hitters.
Reduce the range on Down-B. I get that Ness is supposed to be easily gimpable, but being able to do it from on-stage without using a vertical/gravity-affected projectile is not okay.
Nerf uair. This move is pretty broken, though not to the extent of Cloud's. I think Rosalina's portion is reasonable, as is the fact that it chains into Luma's portion, but Luma's portion kills way too early. Significantly reduce BKB on Luma's portion of uair.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I have come up with a single fix for that would fix what makes her broken:

• Remove rage on Luma. This would make her stupid gimping moves much more tolerable, as it's the rage combined with the high base knockback of certain Luma moves that make them kill so early. Also, the main reason RosaLuma players give for Luma's high base knockback is that it helps the move connect with Rosalina's version, so why ever increase the knockback on Luma's moves to potentially make them not connect?

And now for two more changes to rebalance her further:

• Decrease range on Gravitational Pull. This move alone wins her a few matchups, so I think it would be fair to make her have to risk something in those matchups. To compensate somewhat...
• ...slightly increase travel speed of Launch Star. Her recovery is one of her weak points, so instead of buffing her air speed to ridiculous levels, the recovery move itself should be improved.

Voting for her worst knight-mare, .

 

[Axel311]

Rosa is super annoying. Yeah, she could use a nerf but I think there's atleast 5 other characters more deserving of one.

I think it would be fair to -

Give opponents more reward for killing luma. Increase the respawn timer by 3 seconds or so.

Her luma upair and dair is crazy with rage scaling. It may be best to look at how rage scales with luma on these moves. Her killing people at 40% is not ok.

Her down B could use a slight range reduction. And it should not work on Ness and Lucas's recoveries.

voting

 

[Tizio Random]

Some days ago when I was returning home I was thinking about redesign for some characters and I had this absurd idea about Rosalina & Luma. Imagine how crazy RosaLuma would be if only one of the two entities could have active hitboxes at one time and by pressing the B button (in this case Luma Shot is done by pressing the B button twice) you activate the other character's hitboxes but at the cost of having one of the two entities harmless. So, when Rosalina has the hitboxes Luma is in "defensive stance" and it glows blue giving him resistant to knockback and when you use Luma offensively he glows red and he has insane power at the cost of Rosa being completely defenceless and being easy to launch himself. It would require an insane amount of micromanagement but I would play the s*** out of this character.

Back to the real world, just remove rage from Luma, give some little endlag to GP and remove some hitboxes to rapid jab.

Voting

 

[Zerp]

Rosalina's weird, she got one big batch of nerfs, but stayed as a consistent top threat in the meta and then got qa bunch of different slaps on the wrist, and no truly meaningful nerfs. Anyway, I was going to list what I want changed on her, but L1N3R1D3R 's idea is so much better than what I was thinking of anyway that I'm just going to say that I hope if we get a Smash Switch port or surprise update that that's how Rosalina would be changed.
Here's Rosalina's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1L5GDwsMZkDOWUuUoJiMiCANN8gejOenMlwjnuol9FMI/viewanalytics
Here's Wario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Q46PHaT4f6NHapED3 My PC just had to crash right before posting this, and the votes changed after that. I'm definitely not salty. Totally not.
Here's META KNIGHT's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/vO1xZYpU33AuNGrD2

You may vote for any of these characters that not-so secretly wish they were a space knight.


I vote for Roy.

 

[Alexander1583]

Boy, i haven't used this account in a while...

On metaknight: I dont think he really needs any changes. He goes well against some top tiers (Rosa in particular) and he isnt as abusive as he was before.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is fine as is. His up-air combo is still crazy against floaties, but that's more of a problem with them than it is with him, and U-air has already been nerfed. If he needs any changes, they would be a change to Shuttle Loop that makes it connect consistently but in turn not kill as early, in exchange for a slight range increase on a few moves and possibly a slight buff to Drill Rush, but I don't think these are necessary.

Voting for our young male relative, .

 

[Deleted member]

-do something with uair so it doesn't ladder on floaties anymore, making it sorta more like /'s uair
-range/hitbox duration increases on most moves
-please make uthrow actually kill
-something to make side-B worth using
-shuttle loop connecting consistently but having less kill power

voting for

 

[Axel311]

Even though MK is fine against most of the cast, something should be done to reduce the ladder combo effectiveness against floaties. Him having kill confirms at any percent against floaties including 0 to deaths is not OK. I'm fine with it working better against floaties, but it shouldn't be that effective. If you think MK is fine as is, I encourage you to go watch the abadango/samsora tourney sets.

 

[Zerp]

I think Meta Knight's fine, despite his super polarizing MUs.

Here's Meta Knight's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Q9ZOB0G3R7MAElTBhFN1v2oT4MhgtMgoJzKFB-z6YMk/viewanalytics
Here's Roy's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/6h4jf7HWbI4LZhe62

You may vote for any of these characters that do not claim Roy is their boy.


I vote for

 

[Alexander1583]

Not a fan of roy (specially after some people went all douche towards lucina before and after he was announced). But even i cant deny that he needs something. On what it is, you got me there.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, how you defy all logic behind swordfighters...

• Generally increase range of sour spots. If they're going to be weak, at least give them some way to be somewhat safe-ish.
• Increase full and double jump height. Let him be a fast faller, but at least let him get into the air in the first place!
• Change angle of D-tilt to upward like Melee. The angle it has only works for anything when he's right next to the ledge, which is impractical with how good recoveries are in this game, so I'd rather change its purpose entirely.
• Decrease lag of D-smash. Like Marcina, it's too laggy for its small hitboxes.
• Increase knockback of U-air. Why is the sweet spot still terrible compared to Marcina's when it's harder to land?
• Decrease overall lag of D-air so he doesn't SD almost every time he uses it offstage.
• Aerial Blazer is laughable compared to its grounded counterpart. Give it some super armor, making it somewhat safe for recovery and escaping to make up for its reduced distance and drastically worse knockback.

Voting for the D'oh-I-Meister, .

 

[FamilyTeam]

I don't know a whole lot about Roy besides the little I use him for friendlies. I do know supposedly his sweetspotted Back Air deals less damage (or knockback, I don't remember) than Lucina's does.
There is also the fact that people still try to sell DED as some sort of straight upgrade to DB when I seriously cannot see any angle where that would be true. It seems the opposite is true if anything.
It would be nice if his Back Air was really strong and maybe DED really were some kind of straight upgrade to DB. Not gonna comment on anything else.

 

[Guido65]

Roy doesn't need that many changes and his design for the most part is actually fine. He's just a bit undertuned in some specific areas. He doesn't need too many changes just ones that would be actually relevant to him.

• Improve his air acceleration from 0.03 to 0.06. This change will probably fix a ton of roy's issues as it heavily helps him in disadvantage state by letting him drift in mid air better and being able to have a much less risky and linear aerial approach and it also even helps him mix up his recovery by drifting in mid air. Even with his improved air accel his disadvantage state would be very poor.
• Increase his dash and walk acceleration to normal which is 0.1 and 0.04. These would make roy reach his top stats faster and improve his already good ground game and make his options much better in general.
• Finally the last change roy would need is fix to his sour spots and a small buff on his sweet spot aerials. First things first his sweet spots shouldn't be weaker then lucina's moves and not much stronger then marth's sour spots his sweet spots should have the damage values of marth's. Next thing is why are his sourspots so unsafe on hit and marth's aren't that unsafe on hit? To fix that you increase the damage on all roy's sour spots by 2 and make the sour spot moves have increased base knock back so they're not so punishable on hit at low %. His sour spots should still be a bit weak but they're right now too weak. Even the sour spots on link's down smash aren't that much weaker compared to the sourspots as they all share the same knock back values with slightly lower damage values at 14/16/17/16. Roy's down smash on the other hand does 5% less then the sweet spot only at 10% while link's sour spot at worst is doing only 3% less damage but what makes this incredibly noticeable is that the sour spot on his down smash has noticeably less base knock back at 15 for the sour spot compared to 42 for the sweet spot which is a massive difference.

 

[Zerp]

I'll edit in my thoughts later, rush rush.
Roy's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17N7lfIywsXAu7e3vMxqINOoP7WtXP8h9SbQgYf35GKc/viewanalytics
Wario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/dl2xU8fiRpo0dorn1
You may vote for anyone of these characters as long as you agree that GREED IS GOOD, WAHAHAHA!

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

used to be great, but then he was ignored while others rose to success, and he currently resides in low-mid tier because of that. My suggested buffs:

• Make jab 1 connect into jab 2 more consistently. It's basically a worse version of D-tilt at this point, at least make it work!
• Make F-smash do a lot more shield damage. It's fine in terms of power and I don't want to decrease the lag so it becomes spammable, so I feel like this is a fair buff.
• Increase range of U-smash. It's laggier than Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario's and has a much shorter sweetspot, why does it also need such small range?
• Decrease end lag of U-throw. I don't want to decrease its knockback because I don't want U-throw into sweetspot Waft to be a thing (that would be broken), but at least let it combo into U-air, N-air, or rising Waft.
• Decrease landing lag of D-air so he has access to more followups after the initial hits.
• Make Corkscrew connect much better so it's actually somewhat useful for offense.

Voting for the Super Footstooling Robot, .

 

[L9999]

Man, I sure missed a lot.
Surprisingly everything I need to say about the guy has been said before. No PKF mentions at all is impressive.
For once I agree with Mr. Axel, those suggestions don't remove her combo/mixup heavy game but allow opponents to touch her.
As a summary of the post in the OP, give him an actual grab, an actual throw game, a chance to make it back to the stage and some minor speed buffs.
While I don't really care about Gravitational Gimp that thing has ridiculous range that should be butchered, and I agree with Linerider with rage Luma. I would say nerf knockback growth because rage jank is not exclusive to Luma.
Feel's ideas are good.
While I enjoy to bully bad players with Dtilt it should have Melee angle to connect with sword bases. Double Edge giving air stall for recovery mixups. Nothing else on top of my head.
Do something about his attack speed (D-Smash is GARBAGE). Nerf the characters that go 7:3 against Wario and he is golden.

I vote .

 

[FamilyTeam]

I vote .

I wouldn't mind that if we actually could have some sort of discussion about her.
But sometimes it seems asking to have competitive discussion about Smash in this forum that's about competitive discussion about Smash seems to be asking too much.

 

[Deleted member]

i have nothing to say about wario

voting

 

[Zerp]

Wario's Waft should no longer have a charge mechanic and be at full charge permanently, plus be able cancel into anything on any frame, I think that would be a very fair way to handle him. (This statement paid for by WarioWare inc.)

Jokes aside, Wario could use a few buffs, he's a little undertuned, I'd recommend decreasing lag on all his smashes but other than that I'm not sure on what else to do with him.

Here's Wario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1z2HRMi_GfhZYPHZzG510KhWp8EiobnVCj3y45WgV0DE/viewanalytics
Here's Megaman's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/HSIrBQDHVrA4sKVX2
You may vote for anyone of these characters that aren't super fighting robots.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty much good. He can cause jank with his footstool combo, but he has to land a grounded footstool for it to work well, which is quite hard to do. Besides that combo he has nothing ridiculous, but he has lots of strengths with fair and exploitable weaknesses to balance them out.

Voting for a character who isn't the most one-dimensional in the game for some reason, .

 

[Crimson Avenger]

Imo Megaman is pretty balanced.I would probably buff his fair a little bit in knockback and landing lag so that it could be more useful.

Voting for falco.

 

[Zerp]

Megaman's pretty much perfect as is imo.

Here's Megaman's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xyUztGcd4Ls9fHAHu_NvfJSg0u4H-j_n7jlVZEEnNlQ/viewanalytics
Here's Falco's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/LduWRJJhIbFBVPiP2

You may vote for anyone of these characters that ain't Falco.

 

[Alexander1583]

Poor falco, marth got buffed constantly but he was left to rot(For the most part). IMO, there are 3 main problems with falco:

1º The blaster endlag(it doesnt need to be like melee or brawl, just a little bit faster).

2º Limited approaches(mostly due to speed).

3º Outright worse recovery than his furry friend.

 

[Garo]

I don't see Falco being as bad as I'm constantly led to believe he is, but some laser buffs are still in order. The endlag should be shortened and the hitbox (and the actual laser with it) made a little bigger. This is more of a personal gripe, but I also wish that his jab would have a hitbox behind him. Would make sense (and with Pits too).

 

[Crimson Avenger]

Falco needs some buffs to become viable. What mostly needs a buff are his lasers. A slight increase in firing rate and a decrease in endlag(and maybe a 1% damage increase) should help him a lot with forcing approaches. I would also buff his dash speed a little so that he can approach a bit better and make his jab more reliable because some chars can fall out of it.

Voting for Samus.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

That ain't ...

• Somewhat increase all mobility. By the canon, he's the fastest Star Fox character on the ground, and he claims that he prefers the air, so why not buff his overall mobility to make him more threatening?
• Decrease end lag of dash attack and F-tilt, two of his three moves that are straight downgrades of Fox's counterparts.
• Increase spike duration of D-air. For being so laggy, precise and weak, at least make it likely to spike if it connects.
• Decrease end lag of Blaster, which might actually be useful if he could pressure afterward.
• Greatly increase knockback of Fire Bird, his other move that is a downgrade of Fox's version.
• Increase hitbox duration of Echo Reflector, and make it stall him in the air. It's so situational for how laggy it is right now.

Voting for the character who recently caused a bracket reset against Dabuz, .

 

[Axel311]

I missed wario -

1) Decrease end lag on Upsmash by a lot. Let his smashes be average instead of trash. I'm fine with keeping fsmash as super laggy considering its high knockback. And I'm even fine with dsmash being so laggy and low knockback since it has a long lingering hitbox. But upsmash should be usable. It being so much laggier and shorter range than Mario's but also killing later just isn't needed. That's overbalancing for waft. Waft isn't good enough to balance out his smashes being as bad as they are. I'm by no means am saying he should have an upsmash as good as mario's, but wario's upsmash should be a useable kill option.

2) Decrease start up frames of uptilt slightly

3) Decrease start up lag of ftilt by a handful of frames

4) Increase knockback of bair, let it kill ~5-10% earlier

5) Decrease ending lag of dair by a handful of frames

6) Make jab connect properly - it will still be trash but atleast it will work

I don't think Wario is low tier, but he's likely close. He is in need of buffs. His non-waft kill moves deserve a bit better frame data and knockback. He shouldn't be so dependent on waft to the point where he has shiek level bad killing ability outside of it. It's not THAT good, it's single use and has a 2 minute timer to balance it already. Giving wario such bad kill options outside of it is just overkill. Hitting waft should be more of a reward than a requirement. Wario deserves to be given some better killing ability outside of waft.

 

[Zerp]

Somethingsomethinglasers.

Here's Falco's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YAbnrcZo1uAIA8v143zIL1rbWQemWaO4NZuL1g3D6-0/viewanalytics
Here's Samus's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/iDkMT7bJm38L2wny2

You may vote for anyone of these characters that still ain't Falco.

I vote for

 

[Crimson Avenger]

Samus needs a slight startup and endlag reduction on her missiles, the hits of her Usmash must link better and the blindspot on her dash attack must be fixed too. I would also buff her jab and make the hits link better but its current form must've been what the designers were thinking when they were designing the move since they've never tried to fix its blantaly obvious problems.

Voting for Zelda.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I honestly think is quite close to being balanced after her plentiful buffs, especially since her rage death combo was popularized. All she needs now are buffs to specific moves to make her overall kit more effective and threatening:

• Greatly decrease knockback of jab 1. It's not like that higher knockback is actually useful for much besides possibly making certain setups (not even 50-50's) safer, and I'd rather have a better jab lock and get-off-me move.
• Make U-smash connect better, and increase damage of D-smash. These would be great kill moves if they made sense...
• Decrease overall lag of Missiles and Bombs. They're just too laggy for their situational uses, especially Bombs for recovery.

Voting for Zelda...after changing into more comfortable clothes. ()

 

[Garo]

I think Samus could be a future mid tier even as she is, but could still use a few buffs and chages.

• Decrease Missile endlag (maybe startup too)
• Increase Down Smash knockback on both hits
• Increase the size and duration of F-smash sweetspot hitbox
• Remove extended hurtboxes from some moves (F-tilt at least)
• Make Screw Attack connect better when the opponent is caught by the initial hit
• Ever so slightly decrease the startup of her grabs

Voting for

 

[Uffe]

• Charge Shot - Charge quicker since in the Metroid games, it doesn't take long, especially in Other M. Also, lesser frames for the smaller shots like Greninja's.
  
• Super Missile - Missile cancel like in Melee or lesser frames when it's being fired. Same on her Homing Missile.
  
• Jab - A discussion my brother and I had was her jab should have a stun like Ganondorf's since she is throwing a fist full of metal to the face or the body of her opponent. Plus, her second jab doesn't even combo.
• Grappling Beam - Lesser frames down to something like Link's, if not faster, considering it is energy and not weighted metal.
• Screw Attack - Give it a windbox like Falco's nair so that any opponent close enough gets sucked into the attack and then the windbox drops upon the final few hits. Screw Attack still has an issue of not fully consuming the opponent as it should.
• Forward or Back Throw - A kill move at a certain percent. Kind of makes sense when she's throwing a huge lava fish in Other M.
• F-Smash - The flames of her f-smash doesn't always connect properly, even though it was claimed that was fixed for the better.
  
• Faster movement speed.

 

[Axel311]

Not much to say on Samus other than that dash attack to up B jank killing people at 15% needs to go, haha. But overall the character needs to be buffed obviously.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Samus's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YwRQvJy-YEIB67PvMasOrSkTB8jGSnYmleqnv56tlF8/viewanalytics
Here's Zelda's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/mdFlCZBlfR6fKFQW2

You may vote for anyone of these characters that definitely aren't Zelda in disguise.

I vote for , although, strangely enough, I've never seen her in the same room as Zelda. Weird huh?