The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L1N3R1D3R]

is in the lowest part of low tier, and honestly I don't know exactly what changes she would need to become viable. I have some ideas, though keep in mind this list is probably incomplete or even inaccurate:

• Increase overall mobility. Her moves in themselves are pretty good, she just needs some extra speed so she can use them.
• Decrease SDI multiplier of F-smash and U-smash. They would be great moves if opponents couldn't fall out of them so easily.
• Increase sweet spot size of F-air and B-air. Again, would-be great moves that have a key flaw keeping them mediocre.
• Increase animation speed of Din's Fire, and remove its free fall. There's no reason for this move to be so trash.
• Greatly decrease end lag of Farore's Wind. It's so bad that if you misaim just a little bit and you're above the ledge, you can die.
• Make Phantom Slash not whiff, and reduce its end lag. It's okay, but it could be great.

Voting for her alter ego, .

 

[Axel311]

The main fix zelda needs is bigger sweetspots for her moves. Her glass canon design/precision based design is fine, it just needs to not be so hard to execute. And of course side B and down B need better frame data. Possibly a bigger/longer lingering hitbox on djinn's fire.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Voting The Game ( Game mechanics and sweeping changes across all characters)

• Slight size increase (Kirby shouldn't be able to duck and evade almost all of falcon's moves, or invalidate other figher's moves. Also, greater range and bigger bodies means greater space consumption and more incentive for engagement).
• homogenous frame data (similar jumpsquats (2-4 frames), similar hard landing lag (4 frames), similar dash lengths (quicker on avg. like Zard and Bowser), similar Dodges (around bayo), similar-ish ground and aerial speeds (Ganon and robin won't be slower than most jogs, and sonic won't be AS fast, but still very fast. Just a moderate change in favor of more sonic speeds).
• Avg. landing lag on aerials across the board will be more than Mario, but somewhat comparable. We need better offensive capabilities
• No powershields, but more durable shields (or more strict power shield timing. Like frame 1).
• Less invinc. Frames on all moves (much less on bouncing fish and monkey flip)
• Reduce hitboxes size on Bayo's ABKs and increase her hurtbox sizes so it can be challenged
• Increase dmg threshold on D3's gordo so it's much stronger (8%)
• Give training mode 10000000x more options than it already has. Make it like SF4, SFV, pokken, or something like it

Idk what else to change. I think the game is in a better spot now.

 

[Crimson Avenger]

Zelda needs some buffs to her hitboxes.Jab's hitbox needs to be bigger(some short chars can completely avoid it which is bad for one of her better tools). Ftilt also needs a hitbox increase and Bair and Fair need bigger sweetspots. Din's fire should have less endlag so that it's safer to use and a dash speed buff is also necessary.

Voting for mii swordfighter.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I dabble in Zelda nothing serious

Overall mobility buff she's so slow with better speed she can pressure, punish, tech chase and combo better

Her sweetspots don't need to be increased in size that much just a little what she needs is for them to have better frame data, they are far too laggy and contribute to her absolute lack of any pressure aerials

Let Phantom Slash be store able, this would greatly improve her game overall as the move is quite good as is

There is no reason why side b should put her in free fall at all.

Decrease knockback on down throw so her hoo-hah connects easier and isn't messed up when Zelda has a decent amount of rage

That's all I can think of without over doing it this would make her a solid mid tier imo

Voting for not Zelda

 

[Zerp]

Will edit in my thoughts later. Edit: Hahahaha, I of trickings yuo.

Here's Zelda's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1yNYbw8YFJQuyPfZWxCMcmQChkqb9u9IHvdD6_dYK0N0/viewanalytics
Here's Sheik's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/yw9ZKFTJx9Ym0eCz1

You may vote for anyone of these characters that still aren't Zelda in disguise.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Zerp

"Sheik

The form "Zelda" is no longer accepting responses.

Try contacting the owner of the form if you think this is a mistake."

Ironic how it happened with these two characters.

~~~

I mostly like how is designed now. She can play the neutral and rack damage quite well, but she can have trouble killing...or that would be the case if she didn't have so many 50-50's. I'll take her U-smash as an example of great (IMO) move design, where it's pretty powerful but requires either a hard read or a quite difficult setup to connect, and I want to rebalance three of her other kill moves to be like that: less safe (so not all her moves are annoying) but more powerful to compensate.

• U-air: Slightly increase startup and change it to a single hit (like Melee) so you have to time it right, but slightly increase knockback.
• Vanish: Reduce initial intangibility and increase landing lag, but slightly increase knockback.
• Bouncing Fish: Make it unable to bounce as early and reduce the distance it bounces back after hit, but slightly increase knockback.

Voting for a character I've recently picked up, .

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik needs no real changes. Less intangibility on Vanish and removal of it completely on Bouncing Fish along with a hitbox nerf on said move are the only things I'd neuter about her. BF's disjoint is massive for how safe it is and destroys certain recoveries.

There's no reason side B should send into helpless though, so fix that. Fsmash doesn't tend to connect properly either. Making dair more like Melee's would be a very nice bonus too.

Voting .

 

[Axel311]

Sheik to me is fine. I love what they've done with her. She's extremely hard to play and very technical, but if you put the effort and work in with the character you're rewarded well for it. That's perfect design and the kind of characters I want to see as top tier characters, very healthy for the meta and the scene in my opinion. Sheik is only top tier is you optimize her.


Voting

 

[Zerp]

Sheik's pretty fair imo, only things I'd actually nerf is her Up-B and Down-B.

rebalance U-air, Vanish, and Bouncing Fish to be less safe but more powerful

Sheik's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QYHrVHbSezwL4c5bU08uHXoaDLLdv_vaVqKvaiUsDak/viewanalytics
Olimar's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/7rUS5GMDuJB0Blvy2

You may vote for anyone of these characters that may or may not be malicous invaders from space just waiting to conquer Earth.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is my least favorite character in the game, but I can admit that he's quite good from a balance standpoint, in the fine line between high and upper mid tier along with Peach. If it were up to me, I would nerf the hell out of U-air, Pikmin Pluck, and Pikmin Toss in terms of lag, but I'll try to minimize my inner hatred.

Voting for the character that's gotten the most buff(s) from Brawl, .

 

[Dig Dug]

Oli, huh? I'd put him either on the lower end of high tier or top of upper mid. He's a good character with checks and balances. As for changes...

His Pikmin AI needs serious fixing. Here are some of the problems they have

• They can desynch from your lineup depending on your movement
• They freak out at the ledge
• The arrow indicating your active Pikmin won't update properly on some occasions. Basically, it may stay on a Pikmin you used for side b or fsmash and you'll be unable to use another Pikmin even if you have some with you.
• There's a glitch where Pikmin may get stuck on the ledge when you get sent flying offstage. They'll join up with you once you touch the stage again, but while you're offstage you're own your own and they won't respond to whistle either.
• When using either of his custom neutral Bs, their grab ranges get completely messed up, usually shortened in most cases. If you try to dash grab with a purple for example, it ends up behind you. I don't even use customs, but the fact this got overlooked triggers me.

Whew. Outside of that, the only other thing I'd change is removing the item priority property on his aerials. I understand having it on his smashes, without it they'd go from absurdly good to straight up broken, plus they are projectiles, but his aerials...? They're not good enough to warrant having that tacked on to them.

My vote goes toward the yellow devil,

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I think Olimar's pretty much perfect right now, all he could use imo is for his Pikmin to simply stay in line and stop desyncing, please super glue them to Olimar untill he tosses them or something.

Here's Olimar's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mXLNthSOr9C2UigoEnpreR1Au7bXq8tk7U8woUjHnUQ/viewanalytics
Here's Pikachu's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/kZP9loEFYd6KeOt93
You may vote for anyone of these characters that may or may not be more interested in cheese than Smash.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is probably good. I could see him getting a couple nerfs to Thunder in exchange for a couple buffs to other moves, though:

• Increase startup of Thunder so it's not nearly as dumb for escaping strings, and change the spike hitbox's high base knockback into knockback growth so it's not nearly as dumb for gimping.
• Somewhat increase knockback of F-tilt and Skull Bash, which are currently quite mediocre compared to the rest of his moves.

Voting for Dwight D. Eisenho--I mean, .

 

[Dig Dug]

Pikachu's gotta put in a lot of work to get results. Damage output is pretty low despite his combos, and rar thunder can be unreliable leaving him needing to rely on risky reads a lot to get kills. With that in mind, there isn't much I would change about him.

Only thing I'd might change is skull bash. I only see this move used on two occasions: to go under the stage or when someone messes up their rar thunder. Increasing the knockback of the uncharged hit to the point where it kos at late percents could give it a niche use as an airdodge read. Kind of like his heavy skull bash custom except not as strong cuz that move was crazy.

Voting for

 

[Zerp]

Pikachu's honestly super solid and I don't think he needs any changes at all.

nerf Thunder, slightly buff F-tilt and Skull Bash

Here's Pikachu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/193Sec2eQxpeN6bcob-DCpF7beAFM8xhDvppT1NEz2ho/viewanalytics
Here's Ike's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/c2smqI4DeeAu9xSA2

You may vote for any of Ike's list of Facebook friends.

 

[Crimson Avenger]

I think Ike is fine honestly. Just slightly increase his ground mobility and he's good.

Voting for Ryu.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is mostly good now after his buffs. All he needs now is a buff to one move:

• Add a lingering hitbox to D-air, preferably like Cloud's sourspot D-air (though obviously not as long-lasting). For how long the animation lasts, why does the hitbox only last two frames?

Voting for another buff guy, .

 

[Zerp]

Here's Ike's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OmwOKQKumD6MMnpsp4G9UusKfbiWpHUca2mT4DfIilM/viewanalytics
Here's Ryu's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/DfomSjXbJ2Kv4Sfa2

You may vote for any of these people that Ryu would like to fight.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is mostly fine at the moment. I could take a nerf in his punish game in exchange for a buff in his neutral game, though:

• Increase air acceleration to 0.035. Right now it's so low that he can hardly weave in and out at all, hurting his approach.
• Decrease damage (8 --> 7) and thus hitstun of N-air, and increase knockback numbers to mimic what it is now. The N-air string to D-air is currently just a bit ridiculous, and so this nerf would make it not work as early or do quite as much damage.
• Decrease end lag of all versions of Hadouken (FAF 58 --> 54) to make up for his sluggish ground mobility.
• Slightly decrease knockback of Shoryuken to kill about 10% later, so it's still a great finisher but not ridiculous anymore.

Voting for the embodiment of hype, .

 

[MacSmitty]

The change for Ryu I want is a shortened mid-air Tastumaki so players won't get so screwed over by the movement of that attack.
I vote for Lucario

 

[Crimson Avenger]

For Ryu I would suggest cutting some endlag from all versions of the hadouken and an increase in his overall mobility. I would also suggest a slight increase in up tilts sdi factor so that fast fallers don't get trapped in it.

Voting for Falcon.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Ryu is overall pretty good, could use an endlag reduction on Hadoken, though.

Voting "Come on!" #2/3 ()

 

[Zerp]

I honestly think Ryu's basically perfect as is.

slightly nerf punish game, buff neutral game

Here's Ryu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Rj8lv9poecEMhQReh1TcblaeQk8GE4jEE1IyxkxfbHE/viewanalytics
Here's Captain Falcon's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/obun8oe36o8TrkP73

You may vote for any of these people that Captain Falcon would like to show his moves to.


I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

could use for a few tune-ups, though I want to tone down one crazy move to compensate a bit:

• Decrease damage of U-air, and increase knockback numbers to compensate. Like Ryu's N-air, this move is so good for combos and strings that it shouldn't do as much damage as it does.
• Slightly decrease landing lag of F-air and D-air to help with his neutral game.
• Make Falcon Punch not pitifully weak for its crazy lag.
• Make aerial Raptor Boost always spike, but not quite as powerfully as it does now.

Voting for an actual dragon and not a pretender (looking at you, Corrin), .

 

[Zerp]

Sorry for being boring by thinking the last 3 characters (sans Ike, but I didn't talk about him so he doesn't count) all didn't need a single change, but yeah, Captain Falcon continues that trend. Luckily, today's character is a different story...

Here's Captain Falcon's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1b-UJ1QC5mf8QVVdYB68K1eQwckZYGhs-KbO7-MiVIdI/viewanalytics
Here's Charizard's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/yqohKAvp2EH52ryj1
You may vote for any of these farm grown, all-natural, and pesticide free characters.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I already said all my opinions on last time, but I'm still adamant about them, so I'll quote them here:

• Increase air speed even more (0.92 --> 0.97), and also increase double jump height. He's a dragon, 'nuff said.
  
• (optional) Decrease end lag of dash attack (FAF 40 --> 37). This would help set up traps and juggles, which he really needs.
• Remove windbox of D-tilt, and increase its hitbox size to compensate. This would make it easier and less janky to land, which would improve this otherwise subpar move.
• Decrease end lag of F-smash (FAF 70 --> 65) and D-smash (FAF 61 --> 56). There's no reason for them to be so laggy when they have weird, inconsistent hitboxes and don't do much damage (F-smash) or knockback (D-smash).
• (optional) Increase angle of D-throw (70 --> 80) to reduce the effect of DI and thus make followups more consistent.
• Decrease landing lag of B-air (24 --> 20) and D-air (33 --> 28) so he has better landing and spacing options.
• Decrease startup of Flamethrower (20 --> 18) so he can space better, and Flare Blitz (23 --> 20) so it's more worth the self-damage it causes.
• Decrease end lag of Rock Smash (FAF 72 --> 67) so it could possibly lead to a followup and not be entirely outclassed by Fly in terms of escape options.

Voting for , who I doubt is farm-grown.

 

[Fephoenix]

I don't know much about so I might be wrong on all of this, but I feel as if there should be more push on... whichever attack it was that pushes you, Bair? Fair? with more landing lag. This would give R.O.B a slightly better recovery, but the whole point of this is mix-ups. Also decrease shield push. Then decrease time gyro is out. (Though that might be me running into it a lot.)

 

[Deleted member]

Here's my Charizard changes.

 

[Zerp]

Just as a heads up, update will probably be late today, probably. I'll try to make it not late though.

 

[Zerp]

Hey look, I'm not late.

Despite being buffed like a trillion times over the game's history (totally not jealous about that) Charizard still could use a few buffs, I think just making him faster and less laggy in general would work, although, honestly, this is a bit nitpicky but I'd really like it if he had more than 3 jumps, it bugs me that a dragon can't really stay in the air for that long.

Here's Charizard's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/10KbCltQaygPiey8TvJ7Zhb1erhoTTorvHqCSxShs8h4/viewanalytics
Here's R.O.B.'s poll: https://goo.gl/forms/gqlw4g6bCa2bHKLj1

You may vote for any of these organic beings that totally aren't robots in disguise.

 

[MarioManTAW]

is mostly good as is, but one move definitely needs tweaking: Side-B. Reduce endlag, give it more horizontal movement and (optionally) make it stall your fall in the air.
Voting , who wants to be disguised as a robot.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I agree with MarioMan, is fine except for side-B. Definitely cut off some lag and increase movement, and it will be a worthwhile move. His results have risen surprisingly recently, with Raffi-X showing up a ton, so I fear about doing too much.

Voting for the character who hides the fact that his last name is Azalea, .

 

[Zerp]

I agree with the consensus that R.O.B.'s side b should be buffed, that move could definitely use some work.

Here's R.O.B.'s results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OctkFWHQmad6CUpVazq0e2wQVDRqZJrjN5qvOC_qFfM/viewanalytics
Here's Bowser Jr.'s poll: https://goo.gl/forms/iIm5b2hHizRwlYmN2

You may vote for any of these scrubs that don't use a clown helicopter robot car for transportation.

I vote for

 

[MarioManTAW]

, while he has potential, is not a very good character, and with his best player dropping him in favor of Cloud, his meta isn't being explored all that much. He definitely needs buffs, and here's what I'd suggest.

It's sad how easily Jr. gets gimped. I think this would be fixed just by reducing/removing the minimum damage needed for Jr. to regain his Clown Car.
Reduce endlag on Side-B spin-out. It's to the point where jump is the only viable option to cancel Side-B.
Remove or reduce the backward dash at the beginning of Side-B. Pushing Side-B toward the stage should not make you die earlier.
Reduce start lag on Neutral-B, and give it a (weaker) hitbox after the ball bounces.
Reduce lag on Down-B.
Change angle on D-throw so it can actually be used for comboing.
Something needs to be done about his smash attacks, but aside from slight lag reduction, I don't know what.

Voting , who instead uses a cool motorcycle for transportation.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Even with the decent amount of buffs he's gotten, is still a quite flawed character with some potential but mostly flawed moves. Here are my suggested changes to fix his bad moves:

• Make D-tilt connect more reliably. It's too situational even if it does all connect, why does it need this extra flaw?
• It baffles me that they buffed F-smash and U-smash while ignoring D-smash, which was the worst one. Increase damage so it kills earlier and does more to shields.
• Increase range of grab. It wants to be a tether grab given its lag, but the range isn't nearly enough to compensate.
• Decrease knockback and raise angle of D-throw to make followups much more consistent and versatile.
• Fix the abomination of programming that is Clown Cannon by slightly decreasing both startup and end lag, and adding a sourspot to the ball when it bounces.
• Decrease startup of Clown Car Dash, and increase damage of the spin-out so it kills earlier and is safer on shield, so it isn't straight up worse than the jump.

Voting for Zero Soul's true waifu, .

 

[FamilyTeam]

You know, I am still legit curious as to how a discussion would go.
It would be nice if a good discussion came out of it. But I think the last Lucina discussion (and pretty much every single Mario discussion there ever was in this place, and it's not hard to see I've been here from the beginning) kinda showed to me an inherent problem with having a thread like this: The non mains of the character being discussed don't really necessarily know what they're talking about.
I know discussion kinda is the point of this, but sometimes you end up with pretty hairy stuff, around here.

 

[L9999]

The first thing Bowser Jr needs is reliable multihits. Next he needs a grab. Next he needs throws that are worth a damn (killer or combos). Next lag reduction on Mechakoopa to be a safer item to use, next a Cannonball reboot to make it at least situational against someone competent, and finally the suggested Spin Kart changes.

You know, I am still legit curious as to how a discussion would go.
It would be nice if a good discussion came out of it. But I think the last Lucina discussion (and pretty much every single Mario discussion there ever was in this place, and it's not hard to see I've been here from the beginning) kinda showed to me an inherent problem with having a thread like this: The non mains of the character being discussed don't really necessarily know what they're talking about.
I know discussion kinda is the point of this, but sometimes you end up with pretty hairy stuff, around here.

Personally, I would either one these 2 things for Lucina:
1) Buff her kill moves to be a little more reasonable on stage (F-Tilt, Up Throw, Bair, Dancing Blade finisher) Marth is too silly by comparison. And it would help in MUs that suck like Fox or Sheik.
2) Buff her more mediocre moves (like Dash Attack, Down Smash, ???) or a good move (DTilt, Dolphin Slash, ???) to have a niche over Marth's. Just my opinion.

On the hairy stuff, they can learn. Seeing the progression of the opinions in flow with the meta is interesting. Take the last discussion of as an example. I was absent, but there were no comments about PK Fire or Back Throw or how Ness is anathema to our lives. I find that impressive. I was one of the sheep that said Lucina was garbage because Wynaut. I have trained with her with no competitive value involved in relation to Ness (except Sanic and some MUs I'm too lazy to space with Ness), I learned to judge her by her own merits, which are better than a lot of characters in this game. I also look at this thread as a social experiment to see what people think about the characters. I know the Competitive Impressions does that too, but they are more focused on peak top level and have a lot of veterans/data robots there. This is more relaxed and mostly mid level players. A lot of misinformation and ??? flows, but nobody is omniscient. I would be nice to have mains of almost everyone though. My 2 cents on the subject.

 

[FamilyTeam]

1) Buff her kill moves to be a little more reasonable on stage (F-Tilt, Up Throw, Bair, Dancing Blade finisher) Marth is too silly by comparison. And it would help in MUs that suck like Fox or Sheik.
2) Buff her more mediocre moves (like Dash Attack, Down Smash, ???) or a good move (DTilt, Dolphin Slash, ???) to have a niche over Marth's. Just my opinion.

Those buffs could be dangerous. Maybe one to FTilt would be nice, but the rest aren't as necessary as you might think. Fresh DB Forward is going to KO lightweights at rather grotesque percents - try doing one 3/4s through the stage against Fox at 80%. You're gonna KO him for sure. Bair also destroys unaware people on ledges, and making it KO earlier could maybe be pushing it slightly.
Also, well: Don't know if you find this niche good enough, but there is such a simple KO setup that involves Dolphin Slash that I'm amazed I never see it: Nair 1>Dolphin Slash.
It literally works between mid percent (35-45%) up to KO percent (90-160%) against everyone in the cast without fail, and DS can KO surprisingly early.
Even if you don't KO, it still deals 15%, which is pretty healthy damage.

 

[L9999]

Those buffs could be dangerous. Maybe one to FTilt would be nice, but the rest aren't as necessary as you might think. Fresh DB Forward is going to KO lightweights at rather grotesque percents - try doing one 3/4s through the stage against Fox at 80%. You're gonna KO him for sure. Bair also destroys unaware people on ledges, and making it KO earlier could maybe be pushing it slightly.
Also, well: Don't know if you find this niche good enough, but there is such a simple KO setup that involves Dolphin Slash that I'm amazed I never see it: Nair 1>Dolphin Slash.
It literally works between mid percent (35-45%) up to KO percent (90-160%) against everyone in the cast without fail, and DS can KO surprisingly early.
Even if you don't KO, it still deals 15%, which is pretty healthy damage.

That sounds pretty neat. Thanks for the info.