The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Guido65]

has recently proved himself to be a fearsome competitor through the likes of T, Izaw, and Sova Unknown. He would still be better off with a few buffs, though:

• Increase knockback of U-throw. Why does the slower but more powerful version of Link have a worse kill throw than the quicker one? Perhaps because his grab is less laggy, but still!

Probably because link's kill throw doesn't depend on stage positioning and isn't vulnerable to DI.

 

[Zerp]

Link's one of those characters that's relatively well off but could still use a few buffs.

Here's Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1cS9wo_MrCDN3IUSQJXFX4KSYIvMfzBEn4TxxNI8oqsU/viewanalytics
Here's Dark Pit's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/28msiDM2kkHnjQKv2

You may vote for any of these original characters.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, like his less edgy self, is mostly well off. Ideally he should actually have a unique play style (like Lucina), but at the least they can slightly buff his mobility (as well as Pit's), and then decrease end lag of F-tilt so it becomes better for combos and thus isn't a straight downgrade of Pit's.

Voting for the character who only dreams he were Usain Bolt, .

 

[Zerp]

All I want is for him to be more edgy and a bit more different than Pit, I think he's fine other than that.

Make him slightly more distinct than Pit and 100000% edgier.

Here's Dank Pit's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dtngxE5Byw-9wyy6zq6sYb2aI5OOsm3jfg6za1Wv4WU/viewanalytics
Here's Robin's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/gbMJ3LPpWkHwjxhe2

You may vote for any of these unlucky individuals who can't even hope to marry a quarter of the amount of people Robin has.


I vote for , who totally didn't buy his medical license on Ebay.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Buff speed.
If nothing else, buff speed.

Otherwise, buff Nosferatu (remove helpless, increase uses, increase damage healed, possibly decrease respawn time).
Also, the Bronze Sword could be made a bit more useful.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is almost perfectly balanced. I would only change a couple things about him:

• Okay, I get it, he's not supposed to be that fast on the ground. But the lowest run speed? Really? Please buff a little bit.
• Remove helplessness on Nosferatu. Of all the stupid flaws this move has, this is the worst offender.

Voting for , who makes working with medicine appear a lot easier than it actually is.

 

[Zerp]

Robin doesn't really need much in the way of buffs, although I'd say he should get some slight speed increase on the ground and perhaps a nosferatu buff, although I really don't want him to get anything, totally not because I'm still salty they wasted so much time giving him 36 changes that could have spent balancing other characters.

Here's Robin's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1iPbPL59QlAMLjbAIzskm0KXqnds-hQq7HNd4DPGDc9U/viewanalytics
Here's Dr. Mario poll: https://goo.gl/forms/7QuVC5cKFzzzdZ9s2

You may vote for any of these people who're about as qualified as a Doctor as Dr. Mario.


I vote for the chainsaw sword surgeon .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Just another brief appearance, but I did find out the other day that Dr. Mario's walk speed multiplier is actually 0.83x, much like with his run speed multiplier. I was doing some tests with the Mii Fighters, and it turned out that the heaviest possible Mii Swordfighter walked slower than my modified walk speed value for Dr. Mario.

And for those who don't know, I increased all of Dr. Mario's mobility attributes to 1.08x Mario's mobility attributes.

Walk Speed: 1.1 * 1.08 -> 1.188 * 0.83 -> 0.98604
Run Speed: 1.6 * 1.08 -> 1.728 * 0.83 -> 1.43424
Air Speed: 1.15 * 1.08 -> 1.242 * 0.81 -> 1.00602
Air Acceleration: 0.07 * 1.08 -> 0.0756 * 0.82 -> 0.061992

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is quite flawed compared to his plumber self, so obviously he needs some buffs:

• Increase weight. I don't remember who said it, but I love the way they worded it: "If they're going to treat him like a heavyweight, make him a heavyweight."
• Increase hitstun of U-air. I like how it has a different angle than Mario's, but I'd like it if it could actually combo decently.
• Decrease startup and landing lag of D-air. It's simply too slow and unsafe for its situational knockback.
• Somewhat increase distance of Doc Tornado so it has more versatility for recovery and in general.

Voting for the barefoot wonder, .

 

[MrGameguycolor]

In my opinion Doc just needs one good buff to be at least high tier. I have 2 different options for that.

Either A: Increase his Mobility as a whole to were he's overall faster & more flexible, but still slower then Mario. ( Mario & Sonic Guy is prefect in my opinion)

Or B: Remove the confusing little decimal changes & just buff the damage on all of his attacks by an significant amount from Mario's original damage output.
Example: Frame 2-5 = +1%, Frame 6-12 = +2-3%, 13 > 4-5%. (While also decreasing the knockback on some of them so he can still combo, the values for his multi-hit moves will be adjusted & it's the same idea with throws) That way it actually makes sense for Doc to move as slow as does right now.

Aside from one of those options as well as fixing the hitboxes on his Tornado so opponents quit falling out of it & maybe a slight recovery buff, anything else would be extra by that point in my opinion.

 

[Axel311]

Doc needs buffs, but I very much disagree with making Doc better by increasing his mobility or recovery - because that homogenizes him with regular mario.

The proper way to buff Doc IMO is by increasing his rewards. Make his smashes hit harder, increase his damage output.

Although in some ways balance overall is probably better acomplished by nerfing the knockback of regular mario moveset a bit rather than buffing Doc's. Because I don't think Doc is bad by any means, there just isn't any reason to play him over regular mario.

 

[Zerp]

I don't really care how but I think it'd be nice if Doctor Mario got buffed, regardless of whether or not it makes him closer to Mario or more distant.

Here's Dr. Mario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uTOgtHeHKh7om2LDM63S4yhnAPCukeYEM7ujBT473-w/viewanalytics
Here's Corrin's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/nCHk1L5Oz3qXhxlG2

You may vote for any of these people who may or may not be dragons.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I'd reverse Corrin's stupidly unecessary mobility nerfs and that is it.
Depending on what you believe or read about video game balancing, that nerf was nothing more than an insult.
I'd vote Mac.

 

[Axel311]

Corrin is fine. Many consider her/him high tier. I agree with above that there wasn't any reason to give her the mobility nerf over say, Cloud, but regardless I don't feel the character is in bad enough of a position in current form to warrant buffs or reverting the nerf. She's clearly better than half the cast in current form, and probably better than more like 2/3rds of the cast.

 

[Tizio Random]

The only things I could think about Corrin is maybe a buff in mobility (reverting her/his nerfs and even a bit beyond) in exchange for a slight nerf in Dragon Lunge knockback which sometimes can be crazy considering its overall safety and range. That move alone makes some match-ups REALLY hard for slower characters.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I basically agree with Tizio Random: is basically balanced and either needs no changes, or a buff to mobility in exchange for a nerf to Dragon Lunge. Something to note is that if someone is immediately in front of them, they can sometimes hit them with the backwards lunge, which I feel gives the move even more unnecessary safety and should be addressed.

Voting for the next Mike Tyson, .

 

[Garo]

For Corrin, I'd reduce the knockback of U-air, reduce the knockback and travel distance of Dragon Lunge's front kick, increase the endlag of both kicks and allow Corrin to throw out aerials earlier after jumping out of Dragon Lunge.

 

[Zerp]

I think Corrin's balanced pretty well as is, although I'd be fine with his Dragon Lunge getting nerfs if they buff some other moves.

I feel like his counter should be changed, since it is still a bit overpowered, I also feel like his f-smash should be changed with weird tipper mechanics.

Here's Corrin's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1sfD0TGgAxnnTScaV4pkbut0asrjth3W4ajy0zV5owvg/viewanalytics
Here's Little Mac's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Z9BNITdQST4mqMWf1

You may vote for any of these people who rooted for Mr. Sandman instead of Little Mac.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is close to being balanced in one of the most polarizing ways possible, and I honestly think he's a solid mid tier. At this point, I would only give him three changes:

• Revert all nerfs, especially the distance of aerial Jolt Haymaker. He was built to be a great ground fighter and a bad air fighter, and I feel like that was mostly perfect on release, and that the nerfs were unwarranted.
• Somewhat decrease landing lag of aerials. Isn't their mediocre frame data, small range, and obviously terrible power enough to justify him being a bad air fighter? Why slap high landing lag onto them as well?
• Increase knockback of aerial KO punch. I get that it shouldn't be as powerful as it is on the ground, but this weak? Seriously?

Voting for the character most likely to put you to sleep if you don't do it to him soon enough, .

 

[MarioManTAW]

Increase distance of midair side-b.
Make midair KO Punch not be a waste of the move.
Optionally allow up-b to have a ledge sweetspot.

 

[Zerp]

#Buffthepunch

Here's Little Mac's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1C0Bny2ZUSTUA5ys3ejHljkJxOBzgDt_5MIWcTg_xIcw/viewanalytics
Here's Lucario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/y53FzI750mWunnEv1

You may vote for any of these people who do not have T3H AURA!!1!

I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, like Little Mac, is so close to being balanced in a very polarizing way. I feel like he could use two small buffs to one move, though:

• Increase hitbox duration of Extremespeed, and make the headbonk more forgiving. The former because it's surprisingly short for how long the animation is, and the latter because it's very annoying, and they've already fixed Greninja's, so...

Voting for Henry McCloud.

 

[Zerp]

Lucario's fine as is imo.

Here's Lucario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1LVt-JGyIx1XMExcstmrOTtEf2yKptlgJZeLNls-EiB0/viewanalytics
Here's Fox's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/H2EO2bZqDCmSvq0u2

You may vote for any of these scrubs.

I vote for

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is basically balanced, but I could see him getting some tweaks:

• Nerf that U-air. Seriously, why is it so good? It does 16% fresh, it comes out frame 9, it combos into itself for massive damage, it combos or frame traps out of lots of other moves for a kill, it's the least laggy of all his aerials, and its landing lag and autocancels aren't bad, either. Decrease damage of hit 2 (11 --> 9.5) so it isn't as good for killing or racking damage, and the hit stun would be decreased as well as the knockback to tone down the combo potential.
• Decrease autocancel frames of B-air. It's landing lag is already pretty low for its damage and range, but that doesn't matter when only six frames of the animation (9-14) can't autocancel.
• Buff one of his throws, preferably the damage of F-throw (7 --> 8). His other throws that aren't D-throw do 8%, why not F-throw? This would also make it a bit better for killing, though hopefully not too crazy.
• Decrease end lag of Blaster (40/38 --> 36/34). For their lack of flinch and low damage, they should be a bit quicker so they have some sort of use.

Voting for , who is the closest character left who might be asked to scrub things.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Get rid of that Up Air.
Clearly the devs don't know how to balance this move, because Melee Fox's Uair was also a monstrosity like this. There is no good reason it deals sixteen damage and frankly there is no defending this. I doubt even the devs could explain themselves why it does 16 damage other than "Hey it dealt 18 damage in Melee, it's not as bad!"
I'd make it much harder to AC all of his aerials, too, even if a little bit.

 

[Arthur97]

I wish the B-air had less lag in general. Maybe I was just used to Wolf and then Falco's, but it is just too slow for me.

 

[MacSmitty]

Ahh man, I missed Lucario. All I want for him is to reduce the landing lag for Extreme Speed. What on earth was the dev team on when patching that in?

As for Fox, he needs some cool down on some of his aerials and ground moves, B-Air and U-tilt maybe?

 

[Zerp]

Guys, guys, Fox's up-air is waaaaayyyy too weak, it needs buffs, I mean c'mon, only 16 percent? Who thought having a move be so weak was acceptable!?/s
Please nerf it.

Here's Fox's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18c-hXGy8Fv5ZjYY_cX55jDHJ_c-zja_quqNEZtZ4HCk/viewanalytics
Here's Mr. Game and Watch's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/GNUYvkt8RWJtsB2B3

You may vote for any of these people who aren't, for some odd reason obsessed with the number 9.

I vote for that Dark Pit rip-off, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I don't know exactly what to think about , as he has plenty of strengths but also several glaring weaknesses. I really want to buff him a lot, but I'm not sure what would be too much. Here's a start:

• Change angle of D-tilt to upward and remove its ground-only property, allowing for more combos and easier killing.
• Increase damage of sourspots of F-smash and D-smash, making these otherwise mediocre moves more threatening.
• Increase damage of F-throw and B-throw for better killing and general versatility.
• Increase knockback of F-air. It's pitifully weak compared to its Brawl version for no good reason.
• Decrease overall lag of Chef, so you can actually utilize the projectile before your opponent can escape or punish.
• Rebalance Oil Panic to be less laggy while filling it, but more laggy when releasing it.

Voting for a small chasm, otherwise known as a .

 

[Zerp]

Here's Mr. Game and Watch's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1soEi2tck26qxgZ-iom1-SQTqxzroBcphvxuSz8Fj2WA/viewanalytics
Here's Pit's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/wbQWihkZzhYNPKQB3

You may vote for any of these mere mortals.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I still feel like is a bit lackluster compared to most high to top tiers, putting him at the top of high-mid tier in my eyes. I would like to give him a small overall mobility buff, but I don't want to make certain moves like U-smash and D-air too ridiculous, as right now they're only limited by Pit's mobility.

Voting for a character in desperate need of buffs unless you allow customs, .

 

[Zerp]

Pit's eh, he's close to being perfectly balanced but he isn't quite there yet either, he could go for some (really mild) buffs, although I personally don't care much for him getting buffs because he's already so close to being fine. (And that he's really boring to me)
Still though, I think he should get something.

Here's Pit's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1sx4rM6p3fPQVzx4WFMB-5UmOEMfUt1Hm_K7YkrmaghA/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Brawler's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/A0YVbTq7xrjpan363

Like always, Mii Brawler is being treated as Guest XXXX for the poll, but feel free to talk about any ruleset specific version of the character.

You may vote for any of these people who's stock icons share a striking lack of the color red.

I vote for Yoshi, in my eternal and sacred quest to eliminate the color green from this list of characters. Mii Gunner and Toon Link are next.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Guest XXXX is basically balanced as a high-mid tier. The only things I would do are buff his lesser used special moves and maybe his smashes, and nerf Helicopter Kick:

• (optional) Make F-smash and D-smash have two more active frames as a sourspot. They're currently terrible because they have very few active frames and a lot of end lag, so this would make them usable.
• Exploding Side Kick (neutral3): Decrease end lag somewhat and it might not be as terribly punishable as it is now, similar to how I would buff Falcon Punch.
• Burning Dropkick (side2): Decrease end lag a little bit, but not as much as I would for Luigi's Green Missile, because at least with this move Brawler keeps his momentum afterward.
• Headache Maker (side3): Somewhat decrease startup, but I could see it being ridiculous if it were too fast.
• Soaring Axe Kick (up1): Significantly increase recovery distance so it has some use over the other two alternatives.
• Helicopter Kick (up2): Decrease aerial mobility afterward, because it's kinda bonkers that this move can gimp so early near the side blast zones and still let you get back to the stage. This would also hurt its recovery, making it not the obvious best choice anymore.
• Head-On Assault (down1): Take away the ground-only property from the first hit and make it able to grab the ledge earlier, similar to how I would buff Bowser Bomb.
• Foot Flurry (down3): Decrease end lag, because currently it's very lackluster on the ground and it only air stalls the first time.

Voting for the character who wishes his stomach were as big as Kirby's, .

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I think Mii Brawler can be summed up as:
If Guest 1111: Hideously underpowered, tied with 1111 Swordfighter for worst character in the game.
If Guest XXXX: Close to balanced but not quite powerful enough yet, just a few slight buffs would help.
If Small-Fat XXXX: Perfectly balanced.
If Small-Skinny XXXX: A little bit overpowered.

nerf Helicopter Kick, buff smashes and lesser used specials

Here's Mii Brawler's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1rD57_nlP8KckO-IaNSiYM2xRmjOdZ3ngHAK9XFHVqaQ/viewanalytics
Here's Yoshi's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/yQyGifmtLtieNG912

You may vote for any of these humans.

I vote for , for all green must be destroyed.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Honestly, the only change I would make to is to make Egg Roll not garbage. Besides that, I think he's mostly good, and his low representation is because of bad matchups against common top tiers, which is more of a problem of them being too good than him not being good enough.

Voting for my favorite Mii, and one of my favorite characters whom I have ignored until now for some reason, .

 

[L9999]

If you gave Yoshi a grab or a KO move he would be good.

 

[Zerp]

I feel like going off of results and logic that Yoshi could use a few buffs, but honestly I feel somewhat skeptic of Yoshi, I think he's actually good enough as is in terms of pure power, but his players haven't been able to tap into it for whatever reason.

Here's Yoshi's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YxDoS2k61Ud54-KtBiRl5RMbED185ZiAs_DQdedMB_8/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Gunner's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/dhXzsJl4El8a9SIN2
Same as with Mii Brawler, please treat them as Guest XXXX in the poll and whatever you want outside of it.

You may vote for any of these people more likely to get buffs than Jigglypuff.

I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is mostly the opposite of Brawler in that their specials are mostly good, but their normals could use some buffs:

• Decrease knockback of jab 1 and 2 to make the combo connect better.
• F-tilt could use for less end lag, though I'm unsure of the exact numbers because Kuro is missing that information.
• Change angle of hit 4 of U-smash so it connects better and can't be escaped through the most basic SDI.
• Why do all of your throws only do 5%? Increase damage of F-throw and/or B-throw to improve versatility.
• (optional) Decrease landing lag of U-air so drag-down combos are a bit easier.
• What even is D-air, seriously? Add a decently long late hitbox, and decrease landing lag.
• Laser Blaze (neutral 2) and Stealth Burst (side 2) probably need buffs, but I'm not sure what because I never use them or see them be used.
• Increase distance of Arm Rocket (up 3). Even though it has no hitbox, it only improves on vertical recovery, and in fact has worse horizontal recovery than Lunar Launch (up 1), which has a hitbox.

Voting for the slave of Medli and Makar, .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Be careful when using the heaviest possible Mii Gunner, because it's the least mobile fighter in the game. At best, the heaviest possible Mii Gunner can dash faster than Samus's walk speed, but it dashes slower than Mega Man's walk speed.

Whereas for the lightest possible Mii Gunner, it can dash faster than Kirby, but falls short of rivaling Mario's run speed.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Alright! Time for me to rate one of my main characters! to me is an inferior version of , and here are a few tweaks I think can fix this. Some of y'all may have mentioned the following but bear with me here:

• Make Up-air have landing lag of 's up-air.
• D-air is just as useless as or or 's. Reduce its landing lag by 50% and make the meteor smash hit-box like 's.
• Give Charge Blast a knockback buff (i.e. one-and-a-half times base knockback and tripled knockback growth). This is too similar to Brawl 's energy ball. Extra buff to this is it should do darkness damage. Uncharged Charge Blasts cover triple its reach and paralyze on hit.
• Laser Blaze needs to flinch like 's lasers.
• Stealth Burst ought to work like 's Final Smash, considering it's easy to see coming from one-and-a-half kilometers away.
• Cannon Uppercut could stand to cover four times the positive vertical displacement it travels.
• Let Arm Rocket work similar to 's up-B.
• Absorbing Vortex has a hit-box upon release like .
• The damage on f-smash is ****, but I'm down with its knockback values. Increase the damage on this so it hurts as much as 's. Oh, and reduce its ending lag by 50% so it recovers as fast as 's.
• Why the **** does down smash whiff at point-blank range? The front hit on this needs a longer hit-box while always linking into the second hit. Ooh, and make the damage similar to 's down smash.
• Jab 1 and 2 should have zero knockback growth so you can hit with the third hit (which needs the same KB as 's Jab 3).
• Side tilt needs a 75% end lag reduction.
• Down throw and up throw should be kill throws like 's.

And by the way, has anyone noticed that 's traction lessens the smaller and lighter you make it? The poster above me forgot to point out traction being a direct correlation to the Mii's height and weight. I recently created a short and light (and named her Baby Peach, but that's another story) and I think the traction is worse than 's. I also created a of this same stature (and called her Samus Jr., but again another story for another day) and again I think the traction is comparable to 's.


Edit: It should be of no surprise that speed really does matter, whether you're casual or competitive. Now, I agree with what the previous poster said, but I personally believe that small and light s are superior. The apparent trade-offs are lower staying power, lesser reach, and commensurately lower traction. So for any new players wanting to give 'em time of day, I've found it necessary to touch a little bit on speed attributes for the smallest and lightest possible :

• Air speed = >; >; >
• Walking speed: >; > and ; >
• Running speed: >; >; >