The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[FamilyTeam]

I actually played Little Mac quite a bit at one point, although I don't think I'm that qualified to speak on his behalf.
I do think the nerfs for his aerial Side Special are bull****, though. I actually do understand kinda why it was nerfed, because on release, FG was much bigger and housed much worse players, and they definitely didn't know how to deal with it. But FG is barren, nowadays, so there won't be many whiny kinds to moan about this move anymore, so why is it still like that?

I guess I'll vote for , because, as always, civilized discussion about her is always welcome.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Everything about his ground game is good, but I wish for his side-smash not to do that step-in movement. Used up close, it easily whiffs, which is never desirable. While his air game is no good at all, I do want for his down aerial to have 50% less landing lag. Sure, it auto-cancels but I also see it can jab lock. I think Mac will get somewhere with more consecutive jab locks.

And with that, I vote for the time-space queen with purple claws, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

At this point, is a very volatile mid tier with potential to rise if he gets three buffs:

• I generally agree with Lola, though I do appreciate the extra range from the forward step. I think his F-smash should instead get a windbox to reduce the potential to whiff.
• Do his aerials really need as much landing lag as they do, given they already have terrible power and frame data and mediocre autocancels? Please reduce that.
• Revert the aerial Jolt Haymaker distance nerf. It's not like it was broken, and it would still be one of the worst recovery moves in the game regardless.

Voting for Nairo's go-to secondary before he fell in love with the Koopa King, .

 

[Zerp]

Here's Little Mac's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1i4Pofb2_w5PwBLA4N1MfDMGx_TEw1Po79nBmhqOSJrk/viewanalytics
Here's Lucina's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/CJQ5Yhmau5Pn51qw1

You may vote for any of these characters getting nerfed in Patch 1.1.7:


I vote for .

 

[FamilyTeam]

Very well.
As always, I do believe Lucina has the same potential Marth has, and that she doesn't really need any adjustments as those are basically bonus right now. A buff to FTilt to make it KO better and one to Dair to make it not useless would be fine, but not necessary.
With all of the combos she has that deal high damage, her KO setups into her Smashes or Dolphin Slash, and a Top 3 FSmash, I really just wish people wouldn't sleep on her so much and that some really good player picked her up and enlightened everybody to her potential, so people wouldn't see her as "just worse Marth". That is honestly a bit insulting.

I vote for Marth.

 

[Alexander1583]

the best option would be to be decloned. Since that is unlikely, you could increase her safety(like slightly more range, better landing data,etc....)/reward(slightly more ko power on some moves, better grab follow ups are some examples) to make her a more attractive pick. I would like buffs to her foward tilt and some of her other ko options.

 

[Zerp]

I think Lucina's either top of High-Mid tier or bottom of High, not sure which one, but either way I'd give her slight buffs, since I feel like Marth is generally better than her overall despite her being better at a few certain match-ups. She's not flat-out inferior to him, but Marth being better in most scenarios is still something I don't think should be in a truly balanced game, and speaking of Marth...

Here's Lucina's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_IV8bhiAyFVrqaR9KEtNheoGxHcSqakSQUknAPxuC6I/viewanalytics
Here's Marth's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/HoFCvdmPo9XXKmnj2

You may vote for any of these characters that agree that Marth is the most fabulous of all:


I vote for , who is the real most fabulous of all.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Considering the buffs he received, is a viable contender. In fact, it would not surprise me one bit to see him rise to around A tier someday.

Now, I shall vote , whose bowling ball sends foes flying farther than or 's respective side-smashes.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Oh no, I missed 's day! I think she has the tools to compete, but she needs slight buffs to a couple moves that are plain worse than Marth's counterparts due to the lack of tipper, namely F-tilt and D-air. Aside from that, she's a solid character on the border of high and high-mid tier.

Onto . Honestly, the couple buff ideas I had for him in the past (namely D-air and D-smash) are unnecessary now that MKLeo and Mr. E have proven his viability. He's on the bottom of top tier in my opinion, and he has nowhere to go but up, especially through the optimization of tippers and Dancing Blade.

Voting for a peaceful yet disturbing character, .

 

[FamilyTeam]

Interestingly, around here the opinion about Marth is the opposite:
He's risen now but he has nowhere to go except back down to High Mid Tier. I think Marth's recent success is a combination of him hitting his ceiling with one of the best players to even play this game combined with the vomit-inducing way people try to play the Marth MU.
We could be wrong. To be completely honest, I doubt it.

 

[L9999]

Wall of text*.

I'm with Luco (Lucas/Ness dual main from Australia) that Ness and Lucas are even in terms of power, because while in theory* Lucas is better, there are things that suck about Lucas. One is that he gets camped super hard. His mobility isn't much greater than Ness as you say, and Lucas lacks raw damage or super fast moves to even % once he catches up like Ness does. Lucas also has garbage OoS, he has Up Smash (which is bad), he has a tether (which are bad as shieldgrabs no matter how fast they are), and his Nair is multihit that has quite the startup. Ness OoS is very good. 13% Nair, Up Smash from behind, and shieldgrab if possible. Another thing that bites Lucas is that his raw kill power is lackluster. His kill moves are either very predictable or are part of elaborate combos. And while 3 of his throws kill, they only kill with rage at high %, while Ness can kill at basically any percent (Dtilt Bat, rage PKT2, Back Throw, Uair, Bair, rage Nair, Down Smash).

Interestingly, around here the opinion about Marth is the opposite:
He's risen now but he has nowhere to go except back down to High Mid Tier. I think Marth's recent success is a combination of him hitting his ceiling with one of the best players to even play this game combined with the vomit-inducing way people try to play the Marth MU.
We could be wrong. To be completely honest, I doubt it.

Since Marth is one of the anathemas of my life, does the "vomit-inducing way people try to play the Marth MU" involve jumping at him like an idiot expecting to hit him but get in tipper range? I'm curious.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Since Marth is one of the anathemas of my life, does the "vomit-inducing way people try to play the Marth MU" involve jumping at him like an idiot expecting to hit him but get in tipper range? I'm curious.

Foolishly trying to challenge his range and his aerials, having no idea how to actually dodge anything he does (MKLeo made a meme out of it with DThrow>Up Smash), not even trying to DI out of some things and not knowing how to actually overwhelm him properly. Marth and Lucina always lose when you make them fight at melee range, and I rarely see people doing this nowadays.
If you need any more proof that people from the North American meta have no idea how to fight against Marcina... remember that Nairo's discount fake ass bargain bin bootleg Lucina actually worked.
The way people try to play against those two characters would earn them a loss even if they were fighting 1.0.0 Marth and Lucina.

 

[Zerp]

I think Marth's fine as is for right now, although I feel he's at a tipping point where anything else given to him will tip him over the edge, I find the still somewhat present demand for him getting buffed to be very alarming, if Nintendo were to ever act on that and actually gave him some more buffs you can bet he'll end being broken lol.

Here's Marth's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1IxHHiH1jhZyoK1ZDm4G0YMrfh2Ib9EWOvBODlaRqX68/viewanalytics
Here's Villager's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/3uROqLwYs2Z1z1oG3

You may vote for any of these characters that should never be left in charge of a town:


I vote for .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

A couple things I think can improve : slight increase in running speed, and more priority on the growing and chopping down of the cherry tree. Other than that, (s)he has the tools to piss off most characters below him/her. I see that he operates somewhat like but with a much better air game and more recovery options.

Anyways...going to vote for the future king of chaos, .

 

[MarioManTAW]

I think Marth's fine as is for right now, although I feel he's at a tipping point where anything else given to him will tip him over the edge, I find the still somewhat present demand for him getting buffed to be very alarming, if Nintendo were to ever act on that and actually gave him some more buffs you can bet he'll end being broken lol.

Pun intended?

As for Villager, I don't have anything to say that I haven't said before.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty much good. I could see him getting a decrease in knockback to F-smash (because let's be honest, it's kinda crazy) in exchange for a decrease in grab's end lag, but that's probably unnecessary.

Voting for the character who has the worst single matchup of all the top tiers, .

 

[L9999]

I think Villager is really good but isn't a MU trivializer to warrant nerfs. So no changes wouldn't hurt anyone.

I vote Rosetta and Chiko.

 

[JinKid]

Give link an unblockable ewgf. I'm already too quick.

Balance stuff. If I go too far please tell me.

Go the Lucas route. For starters, TL's grab is bad. His grab barely has any range, it's too laggy, and if you get one, it does jack other than stage control and a situational BThrow that you forget about it most of the time. Speeding up his grab so it isn't completely terrible is the first step. Then giving TL an actual combo throw so he can have an easier time racking up damage.

Repurpose her entire existence. Reduced landing lag so she can pressure with something like Fair, because currently Lucina can't threathen anyone with anything. Next is giving her throws that at the very least are good for playing mindgames or getting 50/50s. And finally, fixing the atrociously animations in relation to their hitboxes. Lucina has bad range already and bad animations and blindspots make it worse.

The mindgame throws I mentioned earlier. A thing I would love to see is that his animations in relation to the tipper hitbox actually matched. And a fixing of animations and hitboxes in general. How can Sheik's Fair outrange Marth's when it doesn't look like it still boggles me.

Another character that needs a Repurpose of life...Number 1 is her Bair. Either it has more active frames or it has a better hitbox. Or both. Next is giving Utilt better range, giving Dtilt a purpose like trip to Resto, make it faster I don't know, bring back Melee USmash, Brawl Rollout, Brawl Pound, and Brawl Dair.

Damn, i know you guys aren't raw with link so you don't place him as top tier. But in the right hands he's ss

 

[FamilyTeam]

Damn, i know you guys aren't raw with link so you don't place him as top tier. But in the right hands he's ss

Mate, this was written ages ago. In the first half of December, we still were in 1.1.2 back then.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Damn, i know you guys aren't raw with link so you don't place him as top tier. But in the right hands he's ss

Yeah...it doesn't quite work that way, hun. I personally suggest you head on over to SSBWiki and read the tier list article and that essay that analyzes the existence of tiers.

 

[JinKid]

Yeah...it doesn't quite work that way, hun. I personally suggest you head on over to SSBWiki and read the tier list article and that essay that analyzes the existence of tiers.

Actually it does. Go play other games. Play mishimas in tekken tag. Best in the game but not every one can play them. Oh yeah, and no idea, or experience in fighting games. Oh wait maybe you should check out evo2k3 wiki. Win an evo.. .

Mate, this was written ages ago. In the first half of December, we still were in 1.1.2 back then.

K mate.

Yeah...it doesn't quite work that way, hun. I personally suggest you head on over to SSBWiki and read the tier list article and that essay that analyzes the existence of tiers.

Really trying to talk to me about top tier like I don't know how it works. It's cool, I like seeing other people try to play link like me. They copy me just like they tried to in talked. Thanks for the schooling in fighting games though bro.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Mate, what are you talking about.
Also, avoid double posting... or triple posting in this case.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Actually it does. Go play other games. Play mishimas in tekken tag. Best in the game but not every one can play them. Oh yeah, and no idea, or experience in fighting games. Oh wait maybe you should check out evo2k3 wiki. Win an evo.. .

Really trying to talk to me about top tier like I don't know how it works. It's cool, I like seeing other people try to play link like me. They copy me just like they tried to in talked. Thanks for the schooling in fighting games though bro.

Mmmm....maybe I should have said this earlier but one's competency with a character(s) has nothing to do with tier rankings. So you're skilled with Link, that's perfect. But in the end, objective analysis of him puts him in the borderline low tier.

I also play Tekken as much as I play Smash, but I ain't competitive. I'm fairly **** at both series but I am still quite knowledgeable about the games.

Now before this thread gets off-topic, I'll let you think what you want, sug. But objective analysis and empirical results are never wrong. Also, I want you to ask yourself: why do you care that a character is top-tier or not? Shouldn't your own experience matter?

I apologize to the thread makers if this got off-topic. I'm certain this isn't the first time y'all had to deal with anti-tiers.

 

[Zerp]

Pun intended?

I want to say yes so I look witty, but no, it's just a coincidence lol.

I apologize to the thread makers if this got off-topic. I'm certain this isn't the first time y'all had to deal with anti-tiers.

Oh don't worry about it, I don't mind people going a bit off topic, and besides, it's not really that off-topic anyway since it's still technically about balance and all.

Anyway, about Villager, I think he's pretty much fine as is.

Here's Villager's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1yNd2GN4xHUGTGc9wA53ecfaWN1k3r3RGF4jkgxlpWEs/viewanalytics
Here's Rosalina and Luma's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/BtRGmeZu3iZ9pgJs1

You may vote for any of these characters that failed Luma babysitting 101:


I vote for .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Not a whole lot should be changed 'bout her except the following:

• F-air and b-air recover pretty slow in the air. On the other hand, the landing recovery on f-air isn't too good either. These moves' should have their aerial lag reduced by 50% so one doesn't risk SDs when used off-stage.
• With Launch Star lacking any defensive hit-boxes, she'll be edge-guarded relentlessly. Yeah...there ought to be protective hit-boxes on this.
• Her air speed is sadly a bit slow. Can't that be increased somewhat to around 's or even 's?

Right....Rosalina does swimmingly whilst Luma is around since its attacks have inherently more knockback and does a damn good job protecting our queen of time-space. Luma, to me, is a much more competent Nana...

I have to ask: I've studied 's frame data but was astonished when I saw Luma's weight value. Is it really true that Luma is the same weight as ?


I'm blasting off again, but before I go, I shall vote for the king of disrespect, .

 

[JinKid]

Mmmm....maybe I should have said this earlier but one's competency with a character(s) has nothing to do with tier rankings. So you're skilled with Link, that's perfect. But in the end, objective analysis of him puts him in the borderline low tier.

I also play Tekken as much as I play Smash, but I ain't competitive. I'm fairly **** at both series but I am still quite knowledgeable about the games.

Now before this thread gets off-topic, I'll let you think what you want, sug. But objective analysis and empirical results are never wrong. Also, I want you to ask yourself: why do you care that a character is top-tier or not? Shouldn't your own experience matter?

I apologize to the thread makers if this got off-topic. I'm certain this isn't the first time y'all had to deal with anti-tiers.

No I suck at smash, but you're missing the point. I don't care if he's top-tier or not I was just shocked he wasn't up there.

 

[Tizio Random]

As always, completely remove rage from Luma and make rapid jab hitboxes smaller so other characters can actually challenge it.
Want a buff maybe? Just make Luma not die from the weakest knockback possible at the ledge and we are done.

Voting for the King Koopa

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is quite ridiculous right now, but she also has a couple of abusable flaws. She's definitely top tier, but on the lower end of it. I know it's pretty late in the game's lifespan to rework her entire moveset, but I still want it to happen. First, the nerfs:

• Remove rage from Luma. There's no reason it's as ridiculous as it is now, especially since the main purpose for its high base knockback is, according to RosaLuma mains, "to make its moves connect better to Rosalina's versions".
• Those jab hitboxes are disgusting, considering they can ledge trap for free and can either combo or kill early for a jab. Please reduce their size to make this move not as braindead.
• Speaking of braindead moves, decrease the range of Gravitational Pull. This would make her oppressive matchups, such as Pac-Man and Ness, not nearly as easy because she would actually have to commit somewhat to take their projectiles.

And now the buffs:

• Sightly decrease end lag of F-air, which is probably her worst aerial due to its lag on top of its awkward knockback.
• Decrease charge time of Luma Shot so she can more effectively get her Luma into a strategic position. I feel like this alone would make her a more tolerable character in general, as it would shift the focus of her gameplan away from abusing Luma up close and toward being smart with her trapping potential.
• Her recovery is bad? Then how about buffing Launch Star's travel speed instead of her air speed, then? (Seriously, she does not need an air speed buff with how ridiculous her aerials are, and I'm even buffing one of them.)

Voting for the new best super-heavyweight, .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Please don't hate me for doing this, but I did try to recreate the pre-1.0.4 mechanics that the Luma had not too long ago. This includes the distance of an uncharged Luma Shot, the original HP amount, and even the time it takes for a new Luma to appear.

Of course, the changes don't affect the Luma's moveset or hitboxes, so its 1.1.6 script data remains untouched. Also, some of the post-1.0.4 data has been kept, such as how quickly the Luma will return to Rosalina whenever it's called back.

I guess I just missed how the Luma Shot worked before the release of Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update, and wanted to relive that moment again in Smash Wii U.

 

[L9999]

air movement is not bad people. She has average air speed (1.1), but her aerial acceleration is 0.1. For reference, has 0.94 air speed but his acceleration is 0.09, making the illusion he is very fast. Rosa doesn't seem so fast because she is super tall and her aerials look very slow.

And now the buffs:

• Sightly decrease end lag of F-air, which is probably her worst aerial due to its lag on top of its awkward knockback.
• Decrease charge time of Luma Shot so she can more effectively get her Luma into a strategic position. I feel like this alone would make her a more tolerable character in general, as it would shift the focus of her gameplan away from abusing Luma up close and toward being smart with her trapping potential.
• Her recovery is bad? Then how about buffing Launch Star's travel speed instead of her air speed, then? (Seriously, she does not need an air speed buff with how ridiculous her aerials are, and I'm even buffing one of them.)

Luma Lauch is fundamentally flawed and nothing can fix it. Luma is the source of Rosalina's power, and throwing it away is asking to get her killed. Even if it was faster it would still be more logical to keep Luma with Rosalina, and in this day and age anti-Luma tactics are very developed, so Rosalina will always play the walking fortress style.

Give link an unblockable ewgf. I'm already too quick.


Damn, i know you guys aren't raw with link so you don't place him as top tier. But in the right hands he's ss

Oh, so nostagic.

 

[JinKid]

Good, someone knows what hit boxes are. It's a Christmas miracle.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Friend, what are you even talking about.

 

[JayE]

What is going on lol

 

[FamilyTeam]

Don't ask me, I don't know either.
I think what is going on is that this thread is actually getting derailed now.

 

[Zerp]

Please don't hate me for doing this, but I did try to recreate the pre-1.0.4 mechanics that the Luma had not too long ago. This includes the distance of an uncharged Luma Shot, the original HP amount, and even the time it takes for a new Luma to appear.

Of course, the changes don't affect the Luma's moveset or hitboxes, so its 1.1.6 script data remains untouched. Also, some of the post-1.0.4 data has been kept, such as how quickly the Luma will return to Rosalina whenever it's called back.

I guess I just missed how the Luma Shot worked before the release of Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update, and wanted to relive that moment again in Smash Wii U.

Why would anyone hate you over something like making a mod? They'd have to be a horrible person to actually hate you over something like that, especially since it doesn't even affect their game if they don't want it to lol.


Anyway, about Rosalina and Luma, I think they're also quite a bit like Marth in that they're in a nice spot right now, but it's a pretty fragile nice spot, if that makes any sense. Also, I originally wanted to nerf Rosalina and buff Luma so that she becomes the worst character without Luma and the best character together with Luma, and make Luma perma-dead until the stock was over, but I feel like that's kind of going against her intended design, so I'm now thinking about just not having her changed at all.

Here's Rosalina and Luma's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1czBFqTbc52msAshHG6bwIN38CMYjlFNtQm4aOW3CJ8I/viewanalytics
Here's Bowser's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/YaZ84KOraQQNh4Yt1

You may vote for any of these characters that are not/ would not be as good at parenting as Bowser:


I vote for , Super Mario Odyssey is looking pretty amazing.

 

[L9999]

is having a lot of hype right now, but I'll play prophet and say he might stagnate once people figure him out (again). I don't think any nerfs are neccesary. What Bowser really needs is an alt of that suit in the Super Mario Odyssey trailer. Instant +3 against .

I vote no one's favorite character, .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This may seem pointless in a competitive standpoint, but Giga Bowser's duration is too short, and he's actually rather underwhelming offensively when compared to a giant-sized Bowser.

Why would anyone hate you over something like making a mod? They'd have to be a horrible person to actually hate you over something like that, especially since it doesn't even affect their game if they don't want it to lol.

To be fair, a decent amount of the stuff that I brought up from the past rounds are in my mod set.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Even after his U-throw nerf, Nairo, LordMix, and several others are proving that is quite good, a definite high-mid tier who could easily rise to high tier. I would still like a minor buff to Fire Breath to make the flinch hitboxes a bit bigger, but that's just a minor change to slightly help his neutral and edgeguarding game, and also make the animation for that move not be so deceptive.

Voting for Super Odyssey.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Huh, for once Bowser is a decent choice of character in higher levels of play. I just want one adjustment: make his back-air have a faster landing recovery (40 frames => 30 frames).

Right...voting for our 35-year old video game mascot, .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Huh, for once Bowser is a decent choice of character in higher levels of play. I just want one adjustment: make his back-air have a faster landing recovery (40 frames => 30 frames).

Bowser's b-air packs a greater punch than all of his other aerials, so there has to be some drawbacks for using it. Believe me, that attack can deal a whopping 29% damage whenever Bowser is giant-sized, and you definitely don't want to be on the receiving end of that attack.