The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L1N3R1D3R]

is currently ranked number one on my tier list, simply because he gets insane representation and results all around the world. It's not like he's overly technical like Sheik, either, as he still has two moves that are just way too ridiculous to be okay:

• D-tilt. Why does this move combo into so many things while also being quite lagless, when he already has Banana Peel to do those things for him? (And why was this move supposedly "nerfed" in a patch with a decrease in knockback?) Increase knockback so that it can't combo into smash attacks at their kill percents.
• F-air. It's exactly like Cloud's U-air: it got nerfed in damage, but that increased its combo potential, and it didn't fix how ridiculous of a spacing move it is because it has crazy disjoints and long-lasting hitboxes, and it can autocancel in a short hop fast fall. Make the autocancel frames start later so this isn't the case.

Voting for T3H PK PH1R3, .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Diddy's stage recovery is the only thing I think needs improvement. He gets gimped as often as when charging the up-B. Horizontal recovery is covered well by Monkey Flip, which more than compensates for Diddy's **** air speed. But vertically he falls a bit too fast to charge-up the jet pack for max distance. Yeah...charge-up time on that should be cut in half. The fact that being interrupted and leaving behind an erratically-moving powerful projectile due to it might help discourage further gimp attempts but I don't have to tell y'all it shouldn't be counted on.

Other than that, no other changes are in order for our acrobatic primate buddy.

This time, I will vote for , whose learning curve seems like a 90-degree angle.

 

[L9999]

Diddy's stage recovery is the only thing I think needs improvement. He gets gimped as often as when charging the up-B. Horizontal recovery is covered well by Monkey Flip, which more than compensates for Diddy's **** air speed. But vertically he falls a bit too fast to charge-up the jet pack for max distance. Yeah...charge-up time on that should be cut in half. The fact that being interrupted and leaving behind an erratically-moving powerful projectile due to it might help discourage further gimp attempts but I don't have to tell y'all it shouldn't be counted on.

Other than that, no other changes are in order for our acrobatic primate buddy.

This time, I will vote for , whose learning curve seems like a 90-degree angle.

There is no need to buff a character that has over 10 +2 MUs and has banana in his moveset.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The funny thing is, while Diddy's recovery may not be that great, it's far better than what Cloud has to work with whenever he's lacking the Limit Break status.

 

[Axel311]

A nerf to Diddy would be fair. Thing with Diddy is he's balanced when playing against most top tiers, but generally +2 or so against a huge chunk of the remaining cast.

Diddy with banana sitting in shield just can't be dealt with by most of the cast. If you don't have a move that directly shuts banana down like Megaman pellets you generally just lose. I wouldn't supernerf him, or even touch his broken dtilt or fair. But I would add a bit more lag to the start up and end of banana toss animation for all characters so it's not so overwhelming and pressuring in neutral.

 

[Zerp]

I don't think I need to explain why I feel it's a good idea to nerf Diddy.

Here's Diddy Kong's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ErFq2TvqOyIQfGLZhA9ALPuCtdpKHtBQEzdbCQsc_2E/viewanalytics
Here's Lucas's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/6U9xk9a33TPHU9nF2

You may vote for any of these characters that are still waiting for Mother 3 to be released:

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I did mention Lucario a few days ago, and I hope that it can come next.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

It appears Lucas fares better this time around considering his mid-tier position. Possessing a good balance between offense and defense, he can mix-up his style fairly well. Ya know, I think he can fare okay against top- and high-tier fighters due his resources, such as wise usage of special moves. I cannot see Lucas's matchups with those characters any worse than say 40-60.

Just a few adjustments: Lucas could stand to gain more ground speed. I think it can improve MUs somewhat by keeping up with those faster than him. And I really think that PK Thunder 2 ought not have multiple hits (it's not likely one gets the full 35-36% from it anyway) but just hit once like , but no change to knockback values. I say this because I think outside of the ones that yield the auto-link angles, multi-hit moves are not particularly effective in my opinion.

Let's hope Lucas's playstyle keeps him out of low tiers for good. And with that, I vote for the telepathic aura master, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is a solid high-mid tier after what Taiheita and others have done with him, and definitely better than Ness when optimized. Honestly, I feel like he only needs one buff right now to be perfectly balanced, and it's an obvious one:

• Make PK Freeze not put him into free fall. I feel the need to scold whoever thought that this, PK Flash, Din's Fire, and Giant Punch deserved to go into freefall when they're already quite laggy and don't help with recovery.

Voting for T3H 4UR4, .

 

[Zerp]

Lucas is pretty good, he only could use minor tweaks, he's mostly fine.

Here's Lucario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/4N3wuVCpTahIlO1r1
Here's Lucas's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-0XcadDWiiOlUEjH5b_IvF7e8x4Bry2k9g8cN_qpxMA/viewanalytics
You may vote for any of these characters that don't believe in the aura:


I'll vote for , GAWTTA GOH FEST!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I did some adjustments to Lucario's aura mechanics the other day, and it's a mix between a buff and a nerf.

Basically, I modified Lucario's aura mechanics so that its damage multiplier no longer goes below 0.7x. As for the nerf portion of the changes, if Lucario's current damage is set at 47% through 96%, the damage multiplier will end up being weaker than with the original mechanics. Part of this has to do with the new mechanics requiring Lucario to have 75% damage for its attacks to deal their normal 1x damage amount; that's 5 damage points later than with the original mechanics.

But starting at 97% damage, the new damage multipliers begin to leave the original multipliers in the dust, with the multiplier going over 1.7x at 173% damage.

The damage cap is also increased to 200%, where Lucario's attacks would deal 1.9x their normal damage.

On a side note, the damage multiplier can actually go up to 2x with my edits, but only if Lucario is trailing by a good amount, and has taken enough damage. If it's leading a match, the multiplier never drops below 0.7x.

Mega Lucario also gets affected in that its attacks would always deal 2x damage, regardless of its current damage. This basically references how the Adaptability ability raises the STAB multiplier to 2x for Mega Lucario's Fighting-type and Steel-type attacks.

One may wonder why I did this, but just remember that at 47% through 96% damage, Lucario won't be able to make KOs as easily as before.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

High changes of moving up : .
Smaller chances of moving up.

High chance of falling down: (despite Ryu's recent string of high placings,his overall performance since the last 4BR list has been underwhelming

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I do reminisce the Brawl days where 's aura-based moves did damage on an unprecedented level. Aura was at its true peak when he was five points/stocks behind the leader with any of his fully-charged smash attacks doing between 35-40% in one hit. His forward throw did 19% under those same conditions, as well as Aura Sphere doing roughly 35%. Oh, sweet pizza, have we a powerhouse in his own right!

Well, enough of my memoir, back to Sm4sh . I don't think much has to be modified but make Double Team a more appropriate counter. notwithstanding, chances of landing it is slim at best. To be honest, I prefer, , or even 's counter since theirs are much faster. Oh, and does anyone here think that Lucario's jab/jab combo recovers a bit too slow?

Once again, I vote for the tireless wanderer .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Honestly, is almost perfectly balanced right now. I would only buff one move:

• Extremespeed. Fix the headbonk like they did with Greninja's up-B, and decrease landing lag somewhat. Its two-frame, relatively weak hitbox isn't nearly enough to compensate for these ridiculous flaws.

Voting for DarkShad and Locu--I mean, .

 

[MacSmitty]

• Cut down the landing lag on Extreme Speed. Why the devs implemented this is beyond me.
• Less frames for his jab.
• Slightly more range on the grab hitbox of Force Palm, but thats just me.
• Fix the glitch that occurs when Lucario does grab Force Palm on a slope and it fails, same for Mega Lucario at 0%.
• Make Mega Lucario more faster and last longer to make the Final Smash more rewarding.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Y'all are missing a crucial problem of lucario; he relies toooooo heavily on aura.


Diminish his aura capabilities and enhance his regular game, and he'll be a muuuch healthier character.

 

[Zerp]

Nerf aura, buff other aspects.

Here's Lucario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1quvnBG7QUYjU4sDtZ9qrcfWjJN859sWVT5xrN8mOzNM/viewanalytics
Here's Ryu's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/tZQVdBhNyDFDSvOU2
You may vote for any of these characters that want to steal Ryu's headband:


I'll vote for .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Lemme see with yoshi

• Reduce lag on Ftilt considerably
• Reduce startup time on grab
• Make people stay in egg longer when hit with neutral B

Small tweaks are what's needed. No need for huge sweeping changes. Yoshi's there, he needs a little push.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I will admit it has been a very long time since I've played Street Fighter. I think Ryu's moveset and commands translate well here in Smash, giving him more depth than, say, or even .

Anyways, I think his up-smash and down-smash are a bit weak in knockback like 's u- and d-smash while their recovery frames are pretty **** for weak smashes. I ask for a small knockback increase on these moves. And can't Hadoken have more priority? Now, I don't ask for transcendental priority like y'all see in 's lasers, but just enough so even a weak jab can't neutralize it. Oh, and maybe a slight increase on his ground speed, though I think fox-trotting gives him decent ground speed.

I'll be voting for my boy, .

 

[Frihetsanka]

And can't Hadoken have more priority?

In other words, more damage?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is kinda balanced in high tier right now. I don't like how he can be so easily camped out, but at the same time I don't want his punish game to be too ridiculous if his neutral game is buffed, so I'd like a mixture of buffs and nerfs:

• Increase walk speed. For how useful his tilts are, he can hardly use them because his walk speed is bottom tier.
• Increase damage of Hadouken. It's simply not a useful tool in the neutral when it's so laggy and pretty weak.
• Decrease knockback of True Shoryuken and D-air. With buffs in the neutral, these finishers would become just a bit too ridiculous if they stayed the same as they are now.

Voting for the face of arcade gaming, .

 

[Zerp]

Boring answer, but I think Ryu's perfectly fine as is.

Buff his neutral (walk speed and Hadouken), nerf his punish game (D-air and True Shoryuken).

Here's Ryu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1UM7GuRLFeGRxxZMT-1U3pB2p0zl_lBF4fiWoxFiIuEE/viewanalytics
Here's Pac-Man's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/LGKGQyAnOiLassmg2
You may vote for any of these characters that are less likely to glitch out the game than Pac-Man:

I'll vote for again.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• I noticed that Pacman lacks a meteor smash. I do believe he needs one in spite of his playstyle of zoning/trap.
• We're all familiar with his utterly **** grab. Makes and proud in comparison, in my opinion. I say, reduce the duration on that, make it have one long-lasting hitbox (not three small ones), and just one kill throw.
• I'd fix Power Pellet such that it is much more difficult to cancel out. The dash itself is weak, so a moderate damage increase would be in order.

Yeah...his defense game is pretty first-rate like , , or even , so I'm cool with that. A better general offense is what I think the ghost-gobbler needs most.

I once again vote for .

 

[Axel311]

If I was balancing Pacman I'd definitely give him a better grab. A lot less cooldown.

I also think his smashes and key should do a bit more knockback, maybe kill around 5-10% earlier.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is widely considered a lackluster character after his results dropped a ton, even through minor buffs. I'd say that with just a few tweaks, his projectile play would actually be worthwhile, and I'd probably secondary him again. I have no new ideas from last round, so I'll just quote my post from then:

• Decrease overall lag of smash attacks, and make hit 1 of U-smash have a higher angle so opponents can't SDI out of hit 2. I appreciate the knockback buff, but if I can't land the moves in the first place, greater knockback means nothing.
• That damn grab. Why is it so trash for how lackluster his throws are? Decrease its startup and end lag, and remove all its blind spots/inactive frames in the middle.
• D-air is another laughably bad move. Decrease SDI multiplier and landing lag, and change its angle and knockback to a soft spike (like Kirby's D-air) so it has a unique use over his other moves.
• Fix the glitch with side-B that makes him bounce ridiculously far back if he accidentally hits a corner (as opposed to the short bounce back from a floor or a wall). I have no clue why this hasn't been addressed yet, as it's existed since launch and it appears to be a programming flaw.

Voting for a character who makes Hostess treats, .

 

[Aaron1997]

Not only did I fix his grab but I also gave him less lag on F-air so Falling F-air is safe shield pressure and a Kill confirm.
Less start-up on Fruit throws and FAF reduced means he people can't punish fruit toss on shield with a smash or a fast can't Punish it half way across the stage. Also it makes Follow-ups that you couldn't do before possible/making it easier to get melon ect. Also gave him a Air speed buff to make it easier to catch people that stole Pac's Fruit.

Voting for

 

[Zerp]

Fix that grab for goodness sake!
Here's Pac-Man's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/159NIrp4YjRP7dj3DFetnmxYY16lq80PxSeKvM6W_Jdc/viewanalytics
Here's Samus's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/sH6Vl29ZKYalTqn53

You may vote for any of these characters that are treated better by Nintendo than Samus :

I'll vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is definitely better than most people give her credit for, with IcyMist and Afro Smash among many others getting honestly incredible results. She's definitely the best low-mid tier, and she honestly doesn't need much fixing to be good:

• Fix her smash attacks. Specifically, increase knockback of F-smash and D-smash, and increase size of U-smash's hitboxes. Her smash attacks are currently so underwhelming due to their lack of safety plus these flaws.
• Increase knockback of one of her throws so it can kill at a reasonable percent. Her grab is so laggy and punishable that it needs more than one decent throw to compensate.
• Decrease end lag of Missiles and Bomb Drop so she can more consistently pressure and recover/protect her recovery with these otherwise great moves.

Voting for someone who presumably makes nice Chinese food for his side-B, .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Oh, how I wish for to be a bit more like her Melee self...

• I don't really get how she can bring out one missile at a time but doesn't have this constraint. Anyways, make her missiles be passable finishing moves again.
• Make her up-throw a kill throw. It gives me more incentive to connect her slow-ass grab. Good lord, I do miss the N64 days where her throws did nasty damage compared to everyone else.
• Side-smash now needs a sweetspot? Uh, no. That was not necessary. The developer should have left that alone.

Voting for the lady inside the high-tech power suit, .

 

[Zerp]

Here's Samus's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/18lLQDqa--3ThyFGUX_8TGl7KWgTA4TJ4QAgXR2j_6uY/viewanalytics
Here's Yoshi's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/40ARejrjBnCcIx7X2

You may vote for any of these characters that do not attempt to grab people with their tongue:

 

[Fephoenix]

Yoshi.... he? Needs a nerf. Probably increase the lag on up b by a little, and decrease egg roll's shield damage by a little. I don't say decrease damage because honestly, that part is fine. It's easy to see, but it should be safer to hold shield on it. And I'm only saying to increase the lag on the egg toss because of level 9 Yoshis. The eggs... Oh, and make his jump sound less annoying

Voting for the Queen of sweetspots

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Yeah...not a whole lot to needs to be fixed or nerfed with our colorful friend, here.

• Decrease the recovery frames on side tilt. It's not that strong, but its recovery is **** like 's side tilt except I think his is a good attack.
• The programmers should have left his d-air alone. What is the point of the vertical-knockback hit at the end?
• Stage recovery is looking okay. Having the highest midair jump and fastest air speed (with small light and Limit Charged just overtaking him in the latter case) does him good, but I think aerial Egg Throw should have him gain the same height for two or three consecutive uses before each use gets less vertical displacement afterwards and then down you go...

Yet again, I vote that spry woman wearing Daisy's soccer outfit, .

 

[MarioManTAW]

-Make side-b not garbage? Increase damage and knockback and make it more easily cancellable. Maybe make it do something in the air too.
-Does his midair jump really need to be cancellable with any aerial? I don't know how many times I've tried to have an active hitbox while recovering (via nair/uair/fair) only for my recovery to stop short.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, oh how we thought you were broken at release...

• His F-tilt is so forgettable that I don't even know what it does. Please do something about that.
• (optional) Decrease lag of grab. For how small range it is and how his throws are mostly mediocre, its high lag is just a bit excessive.
• Make Egg Roll go forward and have a hitbox when used in the air (but not at full force). Of all the silly flaws this move has, the worst is that it can easily screw over your recovery if you mis-input it, and this would help fix that.

Voting for VoiD's worst nightmare, .

 

[Dig Dug]

Yoshi has no kill throws and while he does get some stuff off of grab, it's really nothing to write home about, so I think it'd be fair to improve his grabs a bit.

Standing grab: Active 14-24>12-22
FAF 56>50

Dash Grab: FAF 68>54

Pivot Grab: FAF 65>45 Oh whoopsie. Really though, I hate the long animation they gave this move. I remember in Brawl it used to be fairly fast, now it's just... ugh. This should make it more usable.

Other than that, something I always kind of wanted was for them to give Egg Roll some type of armor. I mean, he is covering himself with a shell, right? Maybe have it be able withstand around 7 percent or so before Yoshi gets hit out of it. It's a bad move, it could use a little something extra. Increase the knockback as well. I really don't get what the purpose of this move was supposed to be...

Voting for Blue Olimar

 

[Zerp]

Despite my immense hatred of the Yoshi match-up I'll admit that Yoshi could use some buffs, I'd make his Egg Roll and his grab better.

Here's Yoshi's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1W9ZXhoSE-_4Gls5UUpLAX-_HlW6XTv2X80IltWsGAXw/viewanalytics
Here's Zero Suit Samus's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/UdIUYPEn2jFj9G2j1
You may vote for any of these characters that cannot into Zero Suit:

I vote .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sheik doesn't need anything

Tweaks is what should happen if anything (nerf Ftilt, Bouncing Fish, Fair. Buff Bair to KO, Uair to KO easier, make Fsmash stronger slightly).

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• Up-tilt is pretty goddamn slow in its recovering animation. I say, take ten frames off of that animation.
• Her new side-smash is better than the one she had in Brawl where it did laughable damage with **** start-up and recovery.
• Decrease start-up on her grab by three frames. Also, make up-throw useful for once by not having **** recovery and too high of knockback to be unable to follow up on.
• Plasma Whip ought to be a finisher like in Brawl. Sadly, it sucks here in Sm4sh.
• This one does not buff/nerf her in any way: four more recolorations on her shorts outfit (pink, red, black, white), please!

Well, with that said, I vote , whose learning curve is pretty identical to Lei Wulong from Tekken series.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

basically just needs some rebalancing to be tolerable to play as and fight against:

• Plasma Whip still isn't that good of an attack even after buffs. It needs less startup to make up for its mediocre power and issues connecting to the final hit.
• On the other hand, Flip Jump is extremely good and hasn't been noticed by the developers yet. It should do less damage (and thus less knockback and shield pressure) because right now it's way too powerful and safe of a finisher for its crazy movement speed, low lag, and invincibility.

Voting for the loser of MKLeo vs. Mr. R, .

 

[Deleted member]

I don't have much to say about ZSS. Please just do something about Flip Kick. That move is absurd.

Voting .