The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

Spoiler: Things I'd like to see for characters I missed

Make Jethammer usable, fix dem hitboxes, and undo all the nerfs.
: Make limit charge slower and decrease the amount he gains from damage. Also, I'd either make Limit Side B slower or weaker.
: ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING

About Fox, I think he's fine apart from his up-air.

Here's Fox's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1p5-M33SSP1EgWG_SpwIp4AbZPRggNkOlgM-a8I3OccY/viewanalytics
Here's Wario's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/QOiBt0fV46fuhoI63

You may vote for any of these characters that smell better worse than Wario and want his autograph because unlike that loser Mario he's actually number one*:


* May be edited by Wario

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• Yeah...reduce recovery frames on each of his smash attacks by 10 frames
• So he can heal damage just by eating his own bike, huh? Sadly, like some of 's specials, heals pitiful health. Wouldn't it be nice if he had a random small chance of healing 15% not 1-3% this way?
• The landing lag on b-air is ****. Reduce it to 15-20 frames, please.
• Make jab 1 three frames faster with less KBG

Now, I want to discuss a few things about him not related to competitive play:

• Inhaling Chomp pulls in nearby enemies, making it a bit more effective. Garlic Breath looks like it makes enemies dazed and confused, but why isn't it included in his official custom moveset? Y'all sugar pies find something wrong with it?
• Speeding Bike ain't too bad, but does it have to be so fragile?
• Rose-scented Waft is pretty nice and contradicts his crude humor, which is pretty nice. I'd make it so the flower is harder to remove when folks have low %s.
• Can't Wario-Man last for 20 seconds? It's cool to make use of his aerials to recover; be invulnerable to all damage; run at the exact same speed as . Wonderful traits, those.

Enough talk...I once again vote for , the one fallen from grace post-Melee.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for the only cloned Pokemon, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Since Gluttony impressed the world at Smashdown World, has been steadily moved up the tiers to a solid mid tier position. I still feel like he could do with a few buffs:

• There's no reason for his jab to be straight-up worse than his D-tilt. Make it more consistent and increase knockback.
• Decrease lag of F-smash and D-smash, and increase range of U-smash (why is it smaller than Mario's when his head grows in the animation?).
• Decrease end lag of U-throw. I want him to have good throw combos like everyone else, but I worry that U-throw to sweetspot Waft would be a bit too ridiculous if I decreased U-throw's knockback, so this is good compensation for potential combos into U-air or rising Waft.
• Decrease end lag of F-air, because right now it's just a bit too much for its low power.
• Corkscrew could use a knockback increase to make up for its consistency issues and mediocre usefulness.

Voting for the best "floaty" even though he has a pretty average fall speed, .

 

[Axel311]

Wario just generally needs less lag on his stuff and more knockback and damage to make getting in more rewarding. His problem is he relies so heavily on waft to the point where you have to hit against good players or you just won't win. And when people can just camp you out to deny you every getting a chance to hit it, he struggles bad. Because take waft away, and he's certainly low tier. I actually have mained the character for a couple years and am not convinced he isn't low tier currently. I think he needs quite a bit of help.

He needs less endlag on his upsmash and downsmash, and a slight knockback increase on his bair in order to give him some non-waft kill options that aren't so horrible. Waft doesn't come around often enough and is too inconsistent for it to be his only good kill option.

I'd also shave a handful of frames of lag off the startup and cooldown of his uptilt and ftilt. Will help his neutral and his bad ground game a bit.

I'd increase the hitbox sizes on sourspot nair and upair, because they're stupidly small right now. Will help him get more consistent kills from waft as well as help his combo game a bit. Will also allow upair to hit short characters from a fast fall.

I'd do something with his grab. He's got to get more reward from getting in. This would have to be done without giving him a waft confirm out of grab, because that would be broken. Maybe increase the damage output of each his throws a bit instead. Or improve his pummel.

Finally, make his eating healing mechanic mean something. It's pointless for it to only do 1% and 1 second off waft, it's not enough to matter. Make it 3% and 3 seconds off waft.

 

[Zerp]

Wario's chief enemy is his lag, he isn't powerful enough to actually make up for it.

Here's Wario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/11xnIFx7emUM3mjG1gsu7JFEqzqW0sPY160tHI1SwG_w/viewanalytics
Here's Mewtwo's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/sROcirkp8OYMtl8j2

You may vote for any of these characters:

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Hmm... I have been thinking about how in Melee he was heavier than . Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to increase its weight. Perhaps on par with or . Now, if the character really was true to its weight, he'd probably be around 's mass.

I think its very low weight is the only thing that needs alterations. Everything else about the reawakened legend is a'ight.


Third time's the charm...voting yet again for , who weighs as much as a beach ball.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty much good. Previously I wanted him to receive various nerfs and buffs to rebalance his moveset, but that would do more harm than good as it would hurt much of his theory, so he's basically fine.

Voting for the character everyone pities, .

 

[Fephoenix]

Probably nerf Fair's knock back a bit. That thing seems stupidly strong.

Voting for the pink ball whose name is not Kirby,

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Better rate .

 

[Zerp]

I think Mewtwo's Fair could use a bit of tuning down but other than that he's fine as is.

Here's Mewtwo's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1A6f6JKE01VwFxiIg2zTvY6lGHxCM1q-bmOMLN0V2DVk/viewanalytics
Here's Jigglypuff's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/pWOIoMQPco3qfF9B2

You may vote for any of these characters that have better luck than Jigglypuff:

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting again for

 

[Fephoenix]

Something needs to be done for Jigglypuff's rest. It's basically the opposite of Bayonetta's Witch Time. Bayonetta can throw out her Witch time and it becomes hard to punish. Time it too early and you get hit by Witch Time. Hit it just a little too early and your cool down frames become longer from Bat Within. (I think.) it has a somewhat long range too. Jigglypuff's rest has a super short range, is hard to kill with, is not guaranteed to not be punished even if you do killl, and so can often cost you your stock, while Bayonetta's Witch Time can often cost the opponent their stock. Oh. And fix Sing. That thing is stupidly hard to hit. Also, increase Jigglypuff's air speed or increase the range of it's aerial attacks. Even Little Mac doesn't suck as much as Jigglypuff when it comes to range, because of his super armor. Speaking of super armor, why not give Jigglypuff super armor on all it's aerials. (Jkjk plz no kill) TBH, I think Jigglypuff just needs a rework on the aerials and specials to be good.

 

[Axel311]

I'd give puff a damage increase on her entire moveset almost. Give her a rest confirm off of fast fall upair. Increase the range of her bair. Make rest kill 5-10% earlier as well. Maybe give her a decent kill throw.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Though there is nothing we can do about its complete lack of tournament representation, we can still give Purin some improvements.

• Ground attacks can stand more base knockback and reach. With non-stellar recovery on its ground attacks, compounded with low BKB, building up damage on low-percent enemies is pretty risky.
• Make Purin a tad heavier, say, on par with . I mean, these two were the same weight in Melee.
• With the way the upper blast line works, I think Rest is no longer worth using unless y'all's opponents are on their last stock. Reduce its recovery by 50% and add 30 more intangibility frames.
• A lack of combos is what makes Purin suffer. Boy, if only we had the relatively high hitstun of Melee, it can ameliorate this somewhat.
• Reduce the entire animation on Sing by 30-50%. I make no effort to get this move to hit 'cause the animation is extremely long. It would be best used for very hard reads to set up Rest, but Sing lacks any other positive attributes except for this: if y'all sugar pies do hit with Sing and connect a finishing move for a KO, you get to tell your opponent (s)he sucks for walking into Sing. Sorry, y'all; those outdated Tekken 3 FAQs again...

Even its Final Smash and custom special moves suck. I think I should cover some of them:

• Raging Rollout sucks since this cannot change direction. This means y'all fly off-stage with no hope for recovery if used incorrectly.
• Spinphony just turns the opponent around with no knockback at all. Yeah...using this is asking to get pounded.
• Wakie-wakie is the ultimate **** custom since you damage yourself.
• Leaping Rest...honestly, y'all sugar pies avoid this. It's even harder to connect than Rest.
• Puff Up is a terrible Final Smash. Maybe if it had a very strong pull effect while putting foes to sleep, it'd be a bit better. Personally, if Purin did not have this move, I wouldn't feel bad. Not one bit.

Right...I'm-a vote , another veteran fallen from grace.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Reduce its recovery by 50% and add 30 more intangibility frames.

I assume you meant 3 more frames. 30 would be crazy.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the only non-Mii character in this game I truly consider bottom tier. Though she has some stuff, her flaws are so glaring and numerous that she's at the bottom of the barrel. The worst part? The devs don't seem to notice her existence. Time to give this poor pink puffball her due love and attention!

• Sightly increase range of all limb and head attacks. This is basically the one change that would immediately shoot her out of bottom tier, giving her an existent neutral game and a more versatile advantage state as well.
• Increase grounded mobility. At least Little Mac is somewhat quick in the air to make up for his awful air game, so why does Jigglypuff need such bad ground mobility on top of her already bad ground game?
• Decrease end lag of D-tilt, which is so laggy and weak that it's almost useless.
• Decrease lag of F-smash and D-smash, which are too unsafe to be decent kill options, and increase damage of U-smash, which is quick enough but far too weak.
• Decrease base knockback of one throw (U-throw?) to make it better at comboing, and increase knockback growth of another (F-throw?) to make it better at killing.
• Remove the freefall-esque state after landing Rollout in the air. Of all the silly flaws this move has for no reason, this is easily the worst.
• Greatly decrease overall lag of Sing, which is so bad that it can trigger counters but not affect aerial fighters and be punished for successfully putting the opponent to sleep.
• Do the thing with Rest and vertical KO's. You know the thing.

Better rate ! (Sorry for being so 2015...)

 

[MarioManTAW]

Remove the freefall-esque state after landing Rollout in the air. Of all the silly flaws this move has for no reason, this is easily the worst.

How is it worse than the uncharged version where you don't do any damage? Both of those need to be fixed.

 

[Zerp]

Being honest, I don't really care what they buff I just want buffs. I'd prefer if they buff her throws and gave her a actual reward off of grab over X and Y, but I'd be glad with pretty much any positive changes.

Here's Jigglypuff's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1SqF_r4Fa_557XTX73B8WcIw76OTANf9b2mgpLNJpULw/viewanalytics
Here's Greninja's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/4CpX9k1YSJZmsiG43

You may vote for any of these characters that better not mention that meme in Greninja's presence:


I'll vote for

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• Substitute unfortunately sucks. Similar to or , it comes out too slow. I notice there is a meteor smash on the down attack of the counter, but not worth it for its speed. A much faster execution on the counter, please. Oh well, at least it has intangibility before the attack appears.
• F-air and n-air's respective aerial recovery frames...cut 15 frames off each of them
• D-air's landing recovery can stand a reduction (33 frames => 25 frames)
• Grab is not too bad since it recovers unusually fast compared to everyone else
• Enlarge the 5% hitbox on up-smash so that can better set up the 14% hitbox, there.

Yeah...better not nerf Greninja. I vote for the princess who saves herself, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty much good in high tier. Even his worst moves like Substitute are quite useful when you land them, to make up for them being hard to land, so I'd say keep him as is and let devoted mains develop his meta game to its fullest.

Voting for my favorite fruit, .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for the pokemon that is somehow not lv 100, .

 

[Zerp]

I think Greninja's pretty much fine as is.

Here's Greninja's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1wTMJ4HiO0TFiSbksydTnD9evlCqyl35_5iiVUl9sQd4/viewanalytics
Here's Peach's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/8Yx0uNEK0XIsXpk13

You may vote for any of these characters that may or may not want Peach's job:

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is also basically fine as is on the border of high and high-mid tier. She could use a slight buff to Toad's power, as it's laughably weak right now, but that's not essential to her game plan at all, so it's unnecessary.

Voting for two dead memes in one, .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for the original pokemon, .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Yes, well...Peach has been nothing more than middle tier since Brawl. I think her greatest setbacks is difficulties in finishing opponents, weak defense in the air, and a non-stellar ground game.

• Revert her forward throw back to a finisher like it was in Melee
• A 50% end lag reduction on back air, please
• If y'all are lucky with the turnip plucking and get a Bob-omb, the bomb should not harm Peach when she hits with it. I understand that and don't get hurt by their own bombs when they score with them. Why the **** can't Peach have this nuance?
• Increase the air speed so it is just shy of 's. I mean, they both have among the slowest falling speeds, so why not have near-identical air speeds?

Now, I want to go over Final Smash and custom specials:

• Sleepy Toad is great since y'all get a free hit/finishing move
• Flower Bomber has the best damage output of the three side-special variants
• Flying Peach Bomber is a pain to land, while its recovery time doesn't do much to help with stage-recovery. Y'all sugar pies don't really need it.
• I think Parasol High Jump and Light Parasol butcher her not-so-shabby stage recovery.
• I suspect Heavy Veggie has a longer turnip pick animation to compensate for the higher damage the turnips do.

Edit: Just found out Peach Blossom does act a bit like Darkrai's attack. But I still wouldn't use this Final Smash since her finishing moves are weak and unreliable. The damage sucks for a super-move, so it is really not worth it.
Well, I've said quite a lot, so I take my leave. But not before I vote , who exponentially outpaces the tortoise and the hare.

 

[Zerp]

Like Greninja, I think Peach is fine as is.

Here's Peach's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1GdgPCPFow1nyuiBDjRJKvt8OIruwtAEpzHS4ETG1Lr4/viewanalytics
Here's Pikachu's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/AA00Aq72z7H43fBS2

You may vote for any of these characters that cannot speak Pikachu:

I'll vote for .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for the swaggiest smasher, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is...okay, I guess. I do want to nerf one move a lot and compensate by buffing a mediocre move, though:

• Decrease end lag of Skull Bash. There's basically no reason to use this move when it's not that powerful or fast for its lag, so decreasing the lag would help make it more useful.
• Oh god, Thunder. How has this move not been noticed yet? Firstly, make it not start immediately so he can't break strings nearly as easily. And secondly, change the spike hitbox to be high in knockback growth instead of base knockback so gimps aren't nearly as ridiculous at low percents.

Voting fo--ROLLING AROUND AT THE SPEED OF SOUND!

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• I'm not very happy about the landing lag on aerials, and this is why they need to restore L-cancelling. Yes, auto-cancel does help, but it cannot always be done. Yeah...I'd want to reduce landing lag on all air attacks except f-air by 50%.
• Decrease recovery on down smash by 15 frames.
• Make up-smash the highest knockback smash like back in Melee.
• Faster recovery on dash attack, please.

Also, I want to share a few things I like about :

• Thunder can meteor smash
• I see that back-air has the auto-link angle so Pika can drag down off-stage opponents for a gimp
• Thunder Wave paralyzes enemies
• It's got generally fast wind-up attacks except for special moves, side smash, and down air

I once again vote for that guy with unparalleled speed, .

 

[Dralro]

• I'm not very happy about the landing lag on aerials, and this is why they need to restore L-cancelling. Yes, auto-cancel does help, but it cannot always be done. Yeah...I'd want to reduce landing lag on all air attacks except f-air by 50%.
• Decrease recovery on down smash by 15 frames.
• Make up-smash the highest knockback smash like back in Melee.
• Faster recovery on dash attack, please.

Also, I want to share a few things I like about :

• Thunder can meteor smash
• I see that back-air has the auto-link angle so Pika can drag down off-stage opponents for a gimp
• Thunder Wave paralyzes enemies
• It's got generally fast wind-up attacks except for special moves, side smash, and down air

I once again vote for that guy with unparalleled speed, .

No L-cancelling, it was a stupid design practice that made things needlessly complicated. Just reduce lag entirely, don't restore L-cancelling.

Oh, and I vote for

 

[Zerp]

Pikachu's also fine imo.

Make thunder quicker, but do less damage and not meteor.
Buff Skull Bash, nerf Thunder.

Here's Pikachu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...n__Q8OBwqI1mp3hhha0y7GqlAfEgJxQ/viewanalytics
Here's Sonic's (and Knuckles) poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Bl9XB8CHGjOOVdDp2

You may vote for any of these characters that fund Dr. Robotnik:

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

What I like about :

• His running speed is unparalleled (only Wario-man can match Sonic's speed)
• Aside from his speed, Spin Dash and Spin Charge usage makes it a pain in the ass for opponents to catch him while being nice for approaching, mixups, confusion, etc.
• His aerials do not have bad recovery if y'all sugar pies consistently auto-cancel them
• Better combo and damage-racking abilities due the game's better physics
• Powerful and very low-risk Final Smash

What I didn't like:

• F-air, b-air, and d-air have pretty **** landing lag (have I told y'all that L-cancelling needs to be reinstated?)
• His finishing moves are slow and/or unreliable due short range
• Up-smash still can't link its hits correctly
• Dash attack has an extremely slow recovery and this is why I never use any dash attack
• Down smash recovers much slower than than the one in Brawl while being shorter ranged
• Lack of a fitting projectile though Sonic has what it takes to deal with opponent's projectiles (aerial Spring Jump y'all can use to gimp the occasional , though)

Now I want to just go over a few custom specials:

• Stomp - yeah, stupid move due the set trajectory which Sonic moves. The opponent has to walk into it to be hit. But it meteor smashes and y'all can get your friends amazed if you connect it good. Maybe if this move homes in on the opponent's current location, it'd be more useful.
• Burning Spin Dash - I like it 'cause of its higher power and somewhat easier control.
• Gravitational Spin Charge - pretty good since the wind-boxes on charge-up can either make it easier to hit or harder to minor-counter.

While I did share what I didn't like about Sonic, I will say he needs no buffs/nerfs. And with that, I shall vote the physical education teacher .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for the shower of moves:.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, although quite campy, is mostly good and balanced. I'd like to see one crazy move nerfed, though:

• Okay, so Spin Dash has crazy movement, good damage, high combo potential, and basically shapes his neutral game...AND has super armor so it can't be punished? Isn't that the point of its high speed? Remove the armor so projectile or sword users can have a chance against his game plan.
• And if you want a buff in exchange, give it to Homing Attack. It's pretty useless right now considering its high startup compared to the rest of his moveset.

Voting for the character who invites us to "get a good stretch", .

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler: I'm sorry

Really though, I think Sonic's pretty much fine apart from the obvious exception of Spin Dash, that move is just too good for it's own good.

Buff Homing Attack, nerf Spin Dash.

Here's Sonic's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1o_Dh_CvJr_eMteGJvbzBBJmpZ1B1ZnU8USX53c1cFOA/viewanalytics
Here's Wii Fit Trainer's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/eOyqiN7X1bRQ91Bj1

You may vote for any of these characters that aren't members of Wii Fit Trainer's fitness club:

I vote for .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• I wish her/his up-smash had a launcher hitbox to lead into the main attack. As it stands, this attack is not very useful 'cause it never hits anyone on the ground next to you.
• Side smash needs an ability to be angled so (s)he can catch the small fighters
• A 35% aerial end lag reduction on back-air, please.
• The healing nuance on Sun Salutation and Deep Breathing is nice. But I think there should be a small six-and-two-thirds percent chance of healing 15% instead of 2%.
• I'd like her/his kill moves to come out a bit faster.

Other than that, here's what I liked about :

• Good defense with the soccer ball and solar energy sphere
• Jab 3 can bury for free follow-ups
• Three meteor smashes
• Great combo potential with n-air
• admittedly looks hot....
  
• Deep Breathing kicks up her damage output for a better shot at killing
• In my opinion her/his custom variants on the sun salutation are versatile

Right...I shall vote the angel of darkness, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has a lot of things going for her, but unfortunately many parts of her moveset have small nuances that make the character feel incomplete and frustrating to play. It's a shame, too, as they're preventing me from liking her playstyle.

• Fix her hitboxes. All of them. Make them hit people more often, you know? (And if you're wondering why I don't mention a mediocre move below, it's because that move is mediocre due to the bad hitboxes.)
• She could use with a slight air speed buff to improve her pressuring game, but not too much as a few of her aerials are legitimately crazy and her projectiles and edgeguarding are also quite good.
• Lower the angle of hits 1 and 2 of jab so the opponent is more likely to be on the ground for hit 3 to bury them. Then increase the knockback of hit 3 so it's more effective when it doesn't bury. It's quite lackluster otherwise.
• Change angle of D-throw so it can actually combo instead of...whatever it does now. Her grab has too little reward for how awkward it is to land, hurting her grounded options.
• Redesign B-air to be like most others, where the early hit is the sweetspot and then there's a brief sourspot afterward. It has potential to be good if it worked like other functional moves of its kind.
• Super Hoop is quite mediocre as an attack besides its gimp potential. I'd like to see it do a bit more damage.

Voting for a worthy successor to Wii Fit Trainer, . (Look how buff and agile he is!)

 

[Zerp]

Here's Wii Fit Trainer's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...CWD_HKixZAlvwuRB5BStOuBFFJHsxxA/viewanalytics
Here's Captain Falcon's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/kG9U1e4ibdrYvoUk2

You may vote for any of these characters that aren't members of Wii Fit Trainer's fitness club but are instead members of Captain Falcon's, they know best:

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Here is what I liked about :

• He has been blessed with a good combo game similar to Melee
• Second fastest dash speed
• Three meteor smashes (with and having four of them but I'm not concerned)
• His aerials recover quickly
• Final Smash can OHKO

Now, what I didn't like about him:

• Generally slow finishers
• His special moves are useless due to their speed
• The **** landing lag on f-air and d-air which both need a 50% reduction of that
• Most of his custom specials do not seem to make using specials any more worthwhile (though Falcon Strike can provide maximum recovery distance)

Right...some repairs to make for the supersonic F-Zero pilot:

• I know Falcon Punch is almost never used due its obviously extreme lag. What kills this move in my opinion is its base knockback of 0. Now, 's Exploding Side Kick has BKB of 35 while having faster recovery (still slow, though). Maybe increase that PAUNCH's base knockback to 30 and knockback growth to 100.
• Give him more traction on dash grab so he can't set-up edge guards that easily
• Give the Raptor Boost 15 more active frames on the inert detector
• Give the all-powerful knee three more sweetspot frames but decrease knockback growth to 85
• The custom special, Falcon Kick Fury, is disappointing on the ground. What the ****? Only 1% when used on the ground? Make the grounded version hit multiple times like it does in the air for a total of 13% or so.

At the end of the day, wins his fair share of matches via mix-ups and bait & punish. I think his near-unmatched speed and basic playstyle and fairly low learning curve make him have a good matchup spread against a decent majority of those below him. Glad to see he's no longer bottom-tier; in fact, I do not expect him to drop significantly from his position now.

I once again vote for the good angel gone bad, .