The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

F L I P J U M P

Buff Plasma Whip, nerf Flip Jump.

Here's Zero Suit Samus's poll: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1fDwX1tvIA77o8flz-IDqbijkCe0AUicyhqO1GXAVCh0/viewanalytics
Here's Sheik's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/yRuPwyQ1ndlPM1Pl1
You may vote for any of these characters that wish they had Zelda's old Down-B:

I vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is basically fine. Ideally I'd like all her finishing moves to be laggier but a bit more powerful to compensate, as is the case with U-smash (I love how that move was designed), so that she really has to work and be creative for her kills considering how easy it is to rack up damage with her. But that's not really necessary considering she's the most balanced top tier after her nerfs, so she's fine as is.

Voting for T3H M0N4ND0, .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Yeah... is kicking lots of ass like her Melee self, so nothing about her should be changed. Not even her down air, which while it can spike this time around is still...well, you know.

Right...voting yet again for , the other fighter with a 90-degree learning curve.

 

[Axel311]

Sheik is perfect right now. Very high skill cap and a great neutral that is balanced by her low weight and lack of killpower. If we had to pick a character for #1 on the tier list to balance around, I'd want her to be it.

 

[Zerp]

I'm not certain how I feel about Sheik, I want to say she's fine as is, but being such a obvious candidate for number 1 and being on the same level as Diddy and Bayonetta make me question if she's really balanced. I think I'd give her some very slight nerfs to Up-B and Needles, just to be safe, but maybe those are unnecessary.

Here's Sheik's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1QxFsMDyM_nuhumoOItCBZQZ_EdYHxPJH0fPDYrY29fc/viewanalytics
Here's Shulk's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/0SQvQCeuhZym4PRn1

You may vote for any of these characters that, aside from Sonic, aren't plagued by as many memes as Shulk:


I vote for , because I don't know who this character is, but I know it ain't Falco.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I do believe his greatest weakness is the abundance of lag on his moves. Yeah...something ought to be done about that. Also, all of his aerial moves cannot auto-cancel. On the other hand, the landing lag on some of them are not that low to compensate. Unacceptable! They need very good auto-cancel windows. And this is why L-cancelling must return.

Oh, and I'll take a minute to share my thoughts on Monado Arts:

• I think Jump and Speed arts are his best. With jump, your ground jump is higher than with a much faster air speed than . I don't have to tell you shugs that he gets maximum stage recovery. Just don't try to do any walls of pain with him.
• Speed gives him faster walking than and can dash faster than . Also, his air speed is still faster than .
• Shield arts...I have mixed thoughts about this. It grants you more staying power, but your speed and jump abilities take a serious toll: y'all are slower than and for dash and walk speed, respectively. Even the biggest can barely out-speed him. And with much worse jumps and an air speed just above , well, I'll say that isn't the only one with **** stage-recovery. In fact shield Shulk's recovery is even worse than Little Mac's. Despite all the guides I've read, I'm pretty sure Shulk with Shield does not become magically heavier than . But w/e...either way, y'all shugs use Shield carefully, especially if y'all go with Decisive Monado or Hyper Monado. For the former, y'all are committed to it for the whole fifteen seconds; the latter makes your sluggishness and Little Mac-like recovery more notable.

Yes, well...Vision counter is nice, but whiffs much more often than other counters. Now, I wish that it had no dash animation and wasn't so slow. Personally, I'll take or 's over this.


Right...wise use of Monado Arts will have Shulk taking on any fighter very well. Still, his lag-filled moveset....

I take my leave but not before I vote , who is already perfect.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is in my eyes a solid mid tier, with good results from Kome and Nicko among others and a versatile kit. He just needs a couple all-around buffs to succeed:

• Slightly increase damage of all moves. If he's going to be extremely laggy, he needs more than range to make up for it now that we have much quicker swords that are almost as long (Cloud and Marth).
• Slightly increase movement speeds during Shield Art. The increase in survivability is nice, but why does he have to be so damn slow on top of losing power to make up for it?
• Just...buff Back Slash. I don't need to explain why this move is terrible.

Voting for King BuffMePls--er, .

 

[Zerp]

Shulk should be given the power to justify his lack of speed imo.
Here's Shulk's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1k9wFWLaQ9PcNvMWdgsJGUI51o_LJE3-2C7QR5yANM08/viewanalytics
Here's Dedede's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Yr9lvG6IcRRa8hft2

You may vote for any of these characters that are secretly trying to install Bandana Waddle Dee as the new Dededeectator of Dreamland, don't tell the King that though:

 

[Fephoenix]

Make all of Dedede's smash attacks break Jigglypuff's shield. (Unless they already do that.) Jigglypuff's natural predator. #BuffThePuffBecauseThatShieldBreakThough

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Where to start? Well, his lag-filled moveset lends him a mediocre neutral game. But I think that the tools he has here can see him through to victory. And no, I do not mean spam Gordo every which way.

• His jab felt awfully slow in Brawl, and still is. But it has a bit of use this time, occasionally setting up a combo on enemies with no more than 10% or so.
• We all know up-tilt was a reliable vertical finisher in Brawl, right? While I do miss the KO power it had back then, it still eviscerates most heavyweights by linking into itself a few times with adequately low damage.
• I won't ask for side-smash to be buffed since it has destructive damage though 's is arguably the strongest in the whole game in terms of knockback. Though the start-up is so long, its recovery is manageable 'cause of the shockwave.
• Up-smash is one of Dedede's most useless moves due its uncharacteristically low damage and very **** ending lag. Either reduce its recovery by 10-15 frames, or higher knockback scaling to compensate.
• I do like the higher damage that back air inflicts, but it came out faster in Brawl, where it was the best attack ever. Make the wind-up five frames faster.
• Forward air, okay. The landing lag is pretty **** like last time, and not as strong as before. But it has use in combos from d-throw and gimping many-a . Good recovery on auto-cancel, so no complaints here.
• Down air is useless like or . Decent recovery on auto-cancel, but its crap start-up and landing lag...yeah, it never hits. If your opponent gets meteor-smashed with this, rest assured, that opponent sucks. Excuse me for saying that; I've been reading outdated Tekken 3 FAQs for too long now (and getting a good laugh out of some of them, but I digress). I continually say this: I want L-cancelling back. Then this move would be a bit better.
• Now, Gordo Toss was a nice addition here. I just want them to do the heavy 19-23% they previously did in Brawl.
• Jet Hammer...well, all I can tell you sugar pies is use the custom Armored variant. Very difficult to interrupt y'all when it's charging.

Just like some of y'all sugar pies here, I miss the Brawl . Oh well, we can make lemonade with what he's got now.

I shall now vote , who is popular with online spammers, which is analogous to Tekken 3 Eddy mashers.

 

[Axel311]

Aww, Dedede, my first main who I dropped because of all his issues. He for sure needs a few more tools and some hitbox fixes to be viable.

- Give him a decent kill throw. He has to have a better way to close out stocks in order to be viable. Doesn't have to be amazing, but make his bthrow or fthrow kill in the 135%ish area at the ledge so not every kill has to be a hard read.
- Increase hitstun on jab 1 and jab 2 so people aren't falling out of his jab constantly. Also will make his jab cancel more reliable as a neutral tool.
- Fix hitboxes on bair and fair to match their animations so the hammer isn't going through other characters constantly.
- Fix hitbox on dtilt so it doesn't wiff up close.
- Change gordo reflect threshold so it now can't be reflected by jabs or most projectiles. I'd prefer just changing his projectile back to what it was in brawl, however.
- Increase damage on inhale by a lot, perhaps up to 14% because it's not enough reward for its risk considering its horrible end lag.
- Increase knockback on fair. No reason for it to be as weak as it is considering its terrible endlag.
- Increase knockback on his upsmash. Why is this so weak and so laggy?
- Reduce the startup of dair a bit, it comes out unreasonably slow.
- Jethammer...oh man. What is there to say? I think this move is unfixable and inherently flawed in design. I guess you could add superarmor frames at some point during its charge? It would still be bad though. This move really needs to be removed and replaced by something entirely different.

I'd want to put those changes in and see how he does. Note I wouldn't add any kind of kill confirm out of a grab because that would make him too much like DK and Bowser.

Voting

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

sucks in more ways than one. Fixing time!

• Revert every single nerf. Yes, including the Gordo and D-throw. Honestly, this alone would fix most of his problems, helping his neutral game, punish game, and general versatility.
• Make all hitboxes match the animations. They're surprisingly small considering that he swings a giant hammer around with most of his moves.

And that's basically all he needs to escape from the depths of low to bottom tier. Now for some fine-tuning:

• Increase air speed even further, so it's still the slowest but actually reasonable and usable. The fact that Cloud, Marth, and even Shulk and Ike can abuse their range in the air while poor Dedede can't is frustrating.
• Jab needs a bit less startup, especially since it's basically outclassed by DK's right now.
• Why is U-smash so weak? At least Ike's is really powerful to make up for its lag...
• D-air should have a larger spike hitbox and/or less landing lag to make up for the fact that it's not Brawl D-air.
• Jet Hammer desperately needs some kind of buff, most notably some kind of armor during the swing and/or a decrease in end lag, so it isn't horribly outclassed by the rest of his subpar moveset.

Voting for the breath of the wild, .

 

[Zerp]

blablablawilleditinlaterbecausemyinternettotallyisntgarbage
Here's King Dedede's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_c3e9tqhHzLzgfDESABn5REkTdVxkpJ87eGLsyVe_mc/viewanalytics
Here's Link's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/OdLs7MIryPhrsLBY2

You may vote for any of these characters that aren't Link, except for Toon Link:

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

In the midst of his poor mobility, frame data, and recovery, I see lots of good things about Link:

• Neutral game looks good due his powerful projectile game
• Decent number of combos
• Good aerial moves in spite of his weak air game, with down-air being changed into a meteor smash with less landing lag than last time (though the landing lag is still ****)
• Many advanced techniques he can employ such as with bombs and boomerang
• A successful hit with a bomb will not harm Link. (Why the **** can't have this nuance when she plucks a Bob-omb?)

Yeah...I believe no buffs/nerfs are necessary here. His matchup spread is pretty "meh" in my opinion; suffers against most characters ranked above him, but gives an extremely hard fight against most folks below him. Personally, I'd like to see Link sitting somewhere in the middle tiers, like right next to or at least .


Right...voting for the swordsman that many players love to hate, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

just needs a few more buffs to rise out of Mid Tier at this point:

• Sightly increase air speed. Given his high fall speed and even higher fast fall speed, his would improve his neutral and follow-up game as well as his recovery, his two biggest weaknesses.
• As odd as it sounds, I want B-air to have LESS knockback growth on top of less landing lag, so it works as a combo tool at a wider percent range and in more situations.
• Gale Boomerang needs a bit less lag overall so it isn't strictly worse than Toon Link's Boomerang.

Voting for genkai wo koeru, .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I bet all of you will try to kill that man.

I'd just make Fair slower on start up, make his Uair hitbox duration last shorter, and make his limit up B much shorter.

Then I'd buff his normal recovery by making it snap a little better and take a ting bit of endlag off Ftilt.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1o5NOMwnomJz6hZomH29PKHYLTsirq6pWLEzooBInxT8/viewanalytics
Here's Cloud's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/UZQebDNvPvSKSoAu1

You may vote for any of these characters that can't break their own limits via pressing down B:

 

[Deleted member]

i'd remove limit cancelling (so whenever he charges limit, he can't cancel it for say around 20-30 frames), increase cooldown of LCS and nerf its kill power, and make nair and uair come out slower with the latter having smaller hitboxes. i'd reduce the active frames of the late hits for uair/dair as well.

voting

 

[Axel311]

I'm sick of complaining about Cloud at this point, but he's so toxic to the meta IMO due to him being super easy to play, OP in doubles and a hard counter to so many low, mid and high tiers in singles.

If they want to keep his design as is with an absurd neutral and killpower and range with a bad recovery, I'd make one change. The problem with his current design is his recovery isn't bad enough to balance him.

Add start up lag to his non-limit up B. Sort of like how Ike or captain falcon's up B takes a second to initiate. This would give other characters more chances to get around the disjoint and gimp him, as well as add more risk to using limit cross slash since saving limit for recovery would make more sense.

It also makes sense in a lore perspective, since in final fantasy 7 climhazzard first stabs the opponent, stalls for a second, and then goes upward: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZRNqP-apcU

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Hmm, most of y'all sugar pies perceive Cloud's learning curve to be a perfectly horizontal line. It won't be long until we have a new .

Yes, well...I shan't buff/nerf Cloud. Boasting an unusually wonderful combination of attack, defense, and speed his neutral/ground game is one of the most feared. Having several finishers, including three meteor smashes...yeah, this guy is no slouch at kills either. Not even his recovery needs fixing. Look, he's easy to gimp, but it does help his air speed just overtakes when he's got Limit Break charged up. And I do agree with y'all shugs that he heavily counters most lower-tiered fighters, so I must reiterate: is back!


I vote for Hyrule's princess of wisdom, . She's never been a good character choice but she deserves y'all's attention.

 

[TDK]

Remove the whole "When you give/take damage you gain limit" thing. There you go.

I'll vote for the best character at being bad, .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hmm, most of y'all sugar pies perceive Cloud's learning curve to be a perfectly horizontal line. It won't be long until we have a new .

Yes, well...I shan't buff/nerf Cloud. Boasting an unusually wonderful combination of attack, defense, and speed his neutral/ground game is one of the most feared. Having several finishers, including three meteor smashes...yeah, this guy is no slouch at kills either. Not even his recovery needs fixing. Look, he's easy to gimp, but it does help his air speed just overtakes when he's got Limit Break charged up. And I do agree with y'all shugs that he heavily counters most lower-tiered fighters, so I must reiterate: is back!


I vote for Hyrule's princess of wisdom, . She's never been a good character choice but she deserves y'all's attention.

How is that when he's not even the best character

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is not the best character in the game, but he's the most abusable top tier and far too easy for how good he is. Nerf time!

• Reduce autocancel frames of U-air. It's way too disjointed and damaging to be able to autocancel in a short hop fast fall on top of its low startup, end lag, and landing lag.
• Decrease damage of final hit of limit Cross Slash, decreasing its shield pressure and kill power.

Voting for the character who just developed a convincing British accent, .

 

[Zerp]

Here's Cloud's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1cFD8VsXWkEFT-wIrFHeJ--Uvhd6sXd1hYHnpY4gkXaY/viewanalytic
Here's Zelda's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/M3XxONrHEMIYoQRE2

You may vote for any of these characters who have a better track record of viability than Zelda:

I vote for Looooooooo eeeeeeeeeeee geeeeeee.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

The only thing I want to fix are her f-air and b-air. These moves are useless because of their extremely slow recovery. On the other hand, their landing lag is not very low either. Sourspotting the attacks will get Zelda's ass kicked. Now, here are some possible reparations:

• Reduce the sourspot size on both moves, OR
• Make the landing lag on both moves 15 frames each, OR
• Give the sourspots more base knockback, OR
• An auto-cancel window 10-15 frames after the active frames end

I now vote for the cyborg who can make lemonade, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty bad. She has enough results to back up her existent theory and be on the top of Low Tier, but that's still not something worth bragging about. Buff time!

• Increase ground speed at least. Her mobility is quite poor, and I feel like her ground game would greatly improve with even a small buff in walk and run speeds.
• Make F-smash and U-smash more consistent. As with all multi-hit moves, SDI can ruin its success, and this especially hurts these moves as they're pretty laggy already.
• Increase hitbox sizes of F-air and B-air. Currently they're her only viable spacing moves in the air, and considering they're basically Falcon Knees, that's not a good omen.
• Remove free fall of Din's Fire. Duh.
• Greatly decrease end lag of Farore's Wind. As opposed to basically every other teleport in the game, this one is so unforgiving if you accidentally misaim, often resulting in your stock.

Voting for the most Elegant character, .

 

[Zerp]

Sorry for the late notice but I'll be updating the thread late today.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I vote for the 2-D wonder,

 

[Zerp]

Sorry about the delay, my internet (outside of mobile) went down for like 4 hours lol.

Here's Zelda's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1JeITmk2cy_22GmVMojM_EhMJSzC9MQ2Dx1eezJFl9l4/viewanalytics
Here's Luigi's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/EiceJnNUqetBy2s93

You may vote for any of these characters who agree that spaghetti is the greatest form of pasta:


I'll vote for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

As mainly Elegant has proven, is solidly high-mid tier and is close to rising up to high tier. His combo game is ridiculous, his edgeguarding is flexible, his ability to kill is much better than some people make it out to be, and of course, he can easily escape bad situations with the press of one button. He's really good in the advantage and disadvantage, but he struggles more in recovery and neutral, and he has two simply bad moves I'd like to fix:

• D-tilt: Increase damage to make it more akin to the rest of his moveset and compensate for its unfortunate angle change in patch 1.1.0.
• Green Missile: Decrease end lag, because not only is this an easily gimpable recovery move, but it's a laughable move for offense, too.

Voting for a character who also makes food (but not spaghetti, sadly), .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I am only going to suggest that his traction be increased. Makes it a pain to approach or minor-counter out of shield. And I used to think the smallest lightest and had an even worse traction, but they don't. So my Baby Peach and Samus Jr. ain't so slippery. Digressing...

Right...voting for the guy that firmly believes 9 is a lucky number, .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I'll vote for as well.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Luigi's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1WT-m461iRc1Vj9kgonkBCE17nS0kd519AfhM-3Pdy0M/viewanalytics
Here's Mr. Game and Watch's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Lt4oDQwxh02sjYgZ2

You may vote for any of these three dimensional beings:

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I vote for the pilot of the century, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is another example of a character I'd like to play and I believe has good potential, but unfortunately his flaws are far too prevalent for him to be higher than low-mid tier.

• Decrease lag of jab 1 and 2 so he can get some followups out of them.
• Change knockback of D-tilt to upward, so he can get some followups out of it and kill more reliably with it.
• Increase power of F-smash and D-smash's sourspots so they're more consistent for their high startup.
• Increase knockback growth of F-throw and B-throw so they can become semi-kill throws.
• Increase damage of F-air to make it better at pressuring and killing like it was in Brawl.
• Decrease overall lag of Chef so it's a more useful tool for neutral and edgeguarding.
• Rebalance Oil Panic to be quicker when filling the bucket but a bit slower when releasing it.

Voting for no items, only, Final Destination.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• The randomness mechanic of Judge should be like 's Wild Gunman, where each of the number effects take a turn to appear before cycling. Makes it less likely to get the all-powerful 9 twice in a row.
• Why the **** does his side-smash have a sweetspot now? They should have left that move alone.
• I thought his up-air was useless 'cause of those windboxes preventing the attack from landing and the fact it is challenging to use as a finishing move. Maybe this can come in handy when someone tries to spike y'all from above.
• Increase base knockback on down throw so it's even harder to follow up with Judge.

Yes, well...while custom specials and Final Smashes are never welcome in competitive play any more than items and even Mii Fighters, I'm going to chime in on some of them anyway:

• Octopus should be able to freely float around and inflict more damage with its tentacles
• XXL and Short-Order have larger/faster projectiles to keep most from rushing in during neutral
• I hope y'all shugs never use Extreme Judge. If I didn't know any better, y'all get a 1 more often than a 9. The recoil damage adds up fast this way. Now, this is why I prefer Chain Judge. Y'all no longer hurt yourself getting a 1 like this. The only trade-off here is a 9 is not nearly as strong as vanilla Judge, but powerful nevertheless.

Right...voting , who has never been low tier.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Mr. Game and Watch's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1I6QbsXDUW4MmSVDGK2C1fth1kwoEP4h14Y9GJ-x_2hg/viewanalytics
Here's Fox's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/UaI6GPIVAaq4twJN2

You may vote for any of these characters that simply can't make as many beautiful noises as Fox:

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

At this point, just needs a nerf to one move that's just a bit too good:

• Decrease damage of hit 2 of U-air so it doesn't rack damage or kill as well, but combos a bit better to compensate.

Voting for the beneficiary of Mona Pizza, .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for the super fighting robot,

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• A slight decrease in falling speed so one doesn't self-destruct easily trying to drag opponents down with f-air while edge-guarding
• Down smash should have ten frames less recovery time
• Up aerial ought to be like it was in Melee where it was a powerful vertical finisher
• And about Landmaster...make that army tank a bit smaller so that the cannon fire doesn't whiff over most characters' heads. Or give it the ability to angle the cannons for a better shot.
• If you sugar pies like playing with custom specials, 2332 is a good set. Personally, I think this set best carries 's legacy.

I shall vote the worst-ranked fighter who needs the reversal of fortune, .