The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Djmarcus44]

Alright! Time for me to rate one of my main characters! to me is an inferior version of , and here are a few tweaks I think can fix this. Some of y'all may have mentioned the following but bear with me here:

• Make Up-air have landing lag of 's up-air.
• D-air is just as useless as or or 's. Reduce its landing lag by 50% and make the meteor smash hit-box like 's.
• Give Charge Blast a knockback buff (i.e. one-and-a-half times base knockback and tripled knockback growth). This is too similar to Brawl 's energy ball. Extra buff to this is it should do darkness damage. Uncharged Charge Blasts cover triple its reach and paralyze on hit.
• Laser Blaze needs to flinch like 's lasers.
• Stealth Burst ought to work like 's Final Smash, considering it's easy to see coming from one-and-a-half kilometers away.
• Cannon Uppercut could stand to cover four times the positive vertical displacement it travels.
• Let Arm Rocket work similar to 's up-B.
• Absorbing Vortex has a hit-box upon release like .
• The damage on f-smash is ****, but I'm down with its knockback values. Increase the damage on this so it hurts as much as 's. Oh, and reduce its ending lag by 50% so it recovers as fast as 's.
• Why the **** does down smash whiff at point-blank range? The front hit on this needs a longer hit-box while always linking into the second hit. Ooh, and make the damage similar to 's down smash.
• Jab 1 and 2 should have zero knockback growth so you can hit with the third hit (which needs the same KB as 's Jab 3).
• Side tilt needs a 75% end lag reduction.
• Down throw and up throw should be kill throws like 's.

And by the way, has anyone noticed that 's traction lessens the smaller and lighter you make it? The poster above me forgot to point out traction being a direct correlation to the Mii's height and weight. I recently created a short and light (and named her Baby Peach, but that's another story) and I think the traction is worse than 's. I also created a of this same stature (and called her Samus Jr., but again another story for another day) and again I think the traction is comparable to 's.


Edit: It should be of no surprise that speed really does matter, whether you're casual or competitive. Now, I agree with what the previous poster said, but I personally believe that small and light s are superior. The apparent trade-offs are lower staying power, lesser reach, and commensurately lower traction. So for any new players wanting to give 'em time of day, I've found it necessary to touch a little bit on speed attributes for the smallest and lightest possible :

• Air speed = >; >; >
• Walking speed: >; > and ; >
• Running speed: >; >; >

The speed values that you have for small Miis are useful, but the buffs that you mentioned for Gunner are very excessive. The up air buff alone would be plenty for Gunner since it would make up air safe on shield, and it would make falling up air confirm into Gunner's smash attacks. I also wouldn't call Gunner a worse version of Samus because Gunner's neutral is much better than Samus's neutral, and Gunner's disadvantage state is arguably better than Samus's disadvantage state as well. Gunner is much better in the neutral than Samus because Gunner has safer options for combos, more mobility while shooting projectiles, better answers to zoning from the opponent (Gunner has a reflector), and an easier time getting around shields. Gunner arguably has a better disadvantage state than Samus because Gunner is better at landing, and Gunner has a smaller frame to avoid more combos. Samus on the other hand has a better recovery and a more reliable combo breaker.

My suggestion for the Miis is to give them the ability to use all of their special moves (similar to how Ryu has strong moves and weak moves). This would probably make all of the Miis viable (especially Brawler and Gunner), and it would end the Mii Fighter debate. In Gunner's case, this would make Gunner's neutral go from a contender for best neutral to having the best neutral in the game without question. It would also make Gunner's disadvantage go from decent to very good because Gunner would be great at landing with bombs, and Gunner's recovery would be decent because Gunner would be able to recover with a good hitbox from a close range. Gunner would also get a pretty good advantage state due to an improved combo game with more kill confirms. Gunner's edgeguarding would also be overwhelming with all of his/her specials. Overall, these changes would make Gunner either high tier or top tier.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Mii Gunner's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1F8Cq9hv9pNwSak5m2MiprQFI749xW_CAcWmAMxx2uyw/viewanalytics
Here's Toon Link's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/TXvWo4mhPg5Alj5x1

You may vote for any of these people who lack the color green on their stock icons.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty well off, even without the best of results recently. He has some ridiculous frame data, good mobility, and lots of options to space, combo, and kill well. I'd say he's good as is in high tier.

Voting for the stare of deat--I mean, .

 

[Zerp]

Toon Link is perfectly capable as is, he doesn't need anything.

Here's Toon Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/12WBUkOy91k-aEGoWyaF1fj0FWgx1C0FetmHH0uXpYHA/viewanalytics
Here's Villager's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/QcuYXA7KMsLxcpSd2

You may vote for any of these characters.

I'm voting for .

Also, Merry Christmas!

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Toon Link is perfectly capable as is, he doesn't need anything.

Here's Toon Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/12WBUkOy91k-aEGoWyaF1fj0FWgx1C0FetmHH0uXpYHA/viewanalytics
Here's Villager's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/QcuYXA7KMsLxcpSd2

You may vote for any of these characters.

I'm voting for .

Also, Merry Christmas!

What's this? I can vote for now? Well, gets my vote and not just because (s)he's my main character along with & .

I'm so going to let loose a barrage of changes to make more viable:

• F-smash needs a 50% end lag reduction while hitting as hard as 's
• D-smash is similar to 's while doing high damage like 's d-smash
• Up air is one of 's best moves since it's quick and powerful with good recovery. But having it hit like 's up air in Melee would be tip-top. On a similar note, back air should be as strong as 's except without that god-awful landing lag.
• Up throw needs the knockback values of 's up throw
• Down throw should be a kill throw like 's
• Gale Strike ought to work like 's Finishing Touch considering its knockback values even at low damage. I say a knockback growth of 500 should do it (in return base knockback is reduced by 30%). Yes, I think deserves to have an early finishing move.
• Hero's Spin in the air needs that useful 366 angle so all the hits link correctly. Let this get the distance of 's while also being a finisher like 's. Same goes for Skyward Slash Dash.
• Power Thrust can stand a knockback buff, since it looks punishable on hit on low-damage foes. I say its BKB value be that of 's side-B while doing darkness damage
• All aerials have the landing lag of or 's respective up aerials.
• Airborne Assault and Slash Launcher should never leave in free fall state after using these attacks in the air. 's recovery would be improved this way.
• Blurring Blade needs its recovery frames reduced by 50% while inflicting serious damage similar to 's (Limit) Cross Slash.
• Since sword-fighter's lacking in K.O. setups, I think Shuriken of Light should paralyze opponents on hit.

 

[FamilyTeam]

What's this? I can vote for now? Well, gets my vote and not just because (s)he's my main character along with & .

I'm so going to let loose a barrage of changes to make more viable:

• F-smash needs a 50% end lag reduction while hitting as hard as 's
• D-smash is similar to 's while doing high damage like 's d-smash
• Up air is one of 's best moves since it's quick and powerful with good recovery. But having it hit like 's up air in Melee would be tip-top. On a similar note, back air should be as strong as 's except without that god-awful landing lag.
• Up throw needs the knockback values of 's up throw
• Down throw should be a kill throw like 's
• Gale Strike ought to work like 's Finishing Touch considering its knockback values even at low damage. I say a knockback growth of 500 should do it (in return base knockback is reduced by 30%). Yes, I think deserves to have an early finishing move.
• Hero's Spin in the air needs that useful 366 angle so all the hits link correctly. Let this get the distance of 's while also being a finisher like 's. Same goes for Skyward Slash Dash.
• Power Thrust can stand a knockback buff, since it looks punishable on hit on low-damage foes. I say its BKB value be that of 's side-B while doing darkness damage
• All aerials have the landing lag of or 's respective up aerials.
• Airborne Assault and Slash Launcher should never leave in free fall state after using these attacks in the air. 's recovery would be improved this way.
• Blurring Blade needs its recovery frames reduced by 50% while inflicting serious damage similar to 's (Limit) Cross Slash.
• Since sword-fighter's lacking in K.O. setups, I think Shuriken of Light should paralyze opponents on hit.

Other than that, I feel that suffers from very slow attack speed and lacks reliable options such as , , or even . The above list of changes can give the plastic-knife fighter somewhat better matchups. That, and I also cannot help myself for wanting to be a little broken...

I'm too old for this, so I'm just gonna ask anyway:
Do you suggest these as a joke, or do you write them with a straight face?

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I'm too old for this, so I'm just gonna ask anyway:
Do you suggest these as a joke, or do you write them with a straight face?

Man, can't you just leave me alone?! What I said above, I was actually serious and was assertive with them. I am usually not this assertive when I come to post on these forums, but I like those ideas; you don't have to. I'm still a relative newcomer to Smash 4, so please let me have my opinion. You think that by being rude to me, I'm going to renege on those buffs? Man, you thought wrong.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Man, can't you just leave me alone?! What I said above, I was actually serious and was assertive with them. I am usually not this assertive when I come to post on these forums, but I like those ideas; you don't have to. I'm still a relative newcomer to Smash 4, so please let me have my opinion. You think that by being rude to me, I'm going to renege on those buffs? Man, you thought wrong.

It's because a lot of the things you suggest are really exaggerated, mate. A lot. I'm not gonna stop you from having fun, but looking at it objectively, those buffs would break the character pretty badly, which is why I asked if those buffs happened to be serious.
I apologize if I happened to offend you, but you also didn't need to immediatly get so defensive. I just encourage you to maybe think of the negative effects some of those buffs could cause.

 

[MarioManTAW]

My main on Christmas. I have to post something.

Villager's pretty balanced, but there are some things I'd like to change:
Increase the amount of time the tree stays up, and make it able to be chopped down as long as it's green.
Decrease lag on grab.
Increase range on U-tilt and decrease lag on F-tilt so they're more usable.
Rabalance Up-B. Make the balloons easier to pop and decrease the range somewhat, but drastically reduce (or remove altogether) the staling.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty much good. If anything, I would decrease knockback of F-smash, and decrease end lag of grab to compensate, but I don't think any changes are necessary, as he's mostly good as is.

Voting for .

 

[Zerp]

There's a reason Villager was second to last to go, and it's because there's not much to talk about with him lol. (Which is a good thing. he's good.)

Here's Villager's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XFEdsEB50XLHwWoa35RuWEh71Tkz-yJzcSSX4RVrGjk/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Swordfighter's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/1ZaDtDuzhLS2rNgJ3
Like always, Mii Swordie is treated as Guest XXXX on the poll, but you can treat him any wa you want outside of the poll, except if you're going to treat him badly and call him names, that's just mean.

You can't vote for anybod...

Whoops, turns out I forgot to remove Wario, so you can vote for him, and only him, to be the break period's mascot.

 

[Guido65]

As someone who uses he is pretty close to being viable yet so far at the same time. His normals are amazing and he even has a respectable neutral game and ground game with 2 of his neutral tools leading well to his advantage state. However the biggest thing plaguing him is he kinda let himself go. Most specifically his stupid jumpsquat which is frame 7 for whatever reason.

Here are the changes I would give mii swordfighter:

Jumpsquat:frame 7 to frame 5(this really prevents mii sword from taking full advantage of his amazing aerials).

Neutral air,down tilt,and jab now cover the whole swords length.

Neutral air now starts right behind him like cloud to remove the blindspot.

Shuriken of light's faf: 50->42

Air Acceleration:0.04->0.06 makes his jumps less committal as well.

These changes would make mii swordfighter more viable without completely rehauling his intended design.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is quite flawed, and he should get some overall tweaks to his entire moveset:

• Fix all hitboxes so they actually make sense and connect when they should.
• Change some values so they match up with the rest of the cast, namely that awful jump squat and bad air mobility.
• Fix most special moves to actually be somewhat worthwhile, especially whatever Stone Scabbard is supposed to be.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I already voted for Swordsman recently. But I am going to chime in again and rate her higher. Yes, I created only female swordsman Miis, but that's another story.

Swordsman's moveset may be brought down by bad recovery frames, but c'mon. It's not like we have attack power rivaling 's. I've perused frame data several times, and it appears d-air, smashes, and specials are the ones with poor recovery. Everything else has a favorable recovery for combos, poking, and ****.

Speed is not much of an issue if one goes with a shorter, lighter . A swordsman of this size and stature is right in the top 5 for walking speed, being a hair faster than but shy of . Now, air speed is quicker than 's but shy of 's. Finally, dash speed exceeds but just shy of 's.


And rather than suggest buffs such that I created a monster last time, I just want an aesthetic change: any of swordsman's attacks that cause noticeable knockback do darkness damage.

That will be all for the night.

 

[Zerp]

Here's Mii Swordfighter's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1AjpjuzS17a9DAs61_R8J45rAhrCSMXb5iVpBSF9lqZk/viewanalytics

And now with that we're done for this round, so just discuss whatever balance related things you want to for today, and the rest of the week since it's break week and all.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I was pondering about whether or not I wanted to discuss a couple MUs, but nowadays I know better not to.
Instead I'm going to ask for something far more relaxed: Who do you guys think is underrated, and why do you think people don't use that character much?
This could be interesting.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I was pondering about whether or not I wanted to discuss a couple MUs, but nowadays I know better not to.
Instead I'm going to ask for something far more relaxed: Who do you guys think is underrated, and why do you think people don't use that character much?
This could be interesting.

There are a lot of characters that aren't used much because of a high learning-curve to reward ratio. It takes a lot to learn them, and even if fully mastered, would struggle to do well competitively. Examples include , of which seem to have the most potential.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

For underrated characters, I would definitely have to say . I know he's my main so I have some bias, but hear me out. I legitimately think his theory is better than Ness's, and that with more representation and possibly higher results, he could easily be top 20, and likely a high tier.

With FOW returning and doing quite well on top of Shaky, S1, and Taranito's efforts, I will agree that in terms of results, Ness is currently doing better than Lucas, who has mainly Taiheita but also JeBB and a couple other players. But you have to remember how much the Lucas meta game has developed, especially from Taiheita.

Lucas's worst matchup is Diddy Kong, and yet Taiheita was able to take a game off ZeRo at Super Smash Con, a huge feat for a character many still consider to be mid tier at best. And between Smash Con and Umebura S.A.T., he was able to take sets off tons of notable players, including 2-0's over Marss and Abadango, and a 2-stock over Abadango at that. In fact, in those 2 tournaments, he only lost sets to ZeRo, Nairo, and Kamemushi, which is nothing to sneeze at. Because of these big efforts, he has been ranked as the ninth best player in Japan, the second strongest region in the world. (This is also a big reason I think Olimar should be high tier, as Shuton is ranked even higher in Japan at fourth.)

And looking purely at Lucas's theory, it's a wonder why he isn't being played more already. First of all, he improves greatly on Ness's two main weakness, neutral game and recovery. His much greater air speed helps both problems as he can more efficiently weave in and out as well as cover more horizontal distance. As for neutral game, where Ness is forced to approach due to his lack of good range options, Lucas can space out the opponent with his much better tools of PK Fire Dashing, Z-air, and several moves with sweetspots at the edges, most notably F-air. These might be more "predictable" than whatever Ness might do, but if they're more effective, who cares? And as for recovery, he might fall a bit faster than Ness, but with much better air speed and a tether recovery, he almost never has to resort to PK Thunder. And even if he does, it's far better for recovery because both the initial thunder ball and his travel go through opponents instead of interacting with them, so fewer characters can effectively gimp the move, and also he goes farther and has more mobility afterward.

As for the rest of his theory, it's not quite as straightforward as Ness's, but it's more versatile and in turn likely to be better. His grab is a bit laggier, but that's already been significantly buffed, and with greater range, it's generally more useful, especially since Lucas can use Z-air, jabs, or D-tilt to frame trap the opponent into a grab. Not only this, his throws are far better than Ness's: Ness has a combo throw that links to a couple aerials that are easy to predict and escape, an admittedly fantastic kill throw, and two throws that can only work as "positioning". On the other hand, Lucas has THREE great kill throws, which allow for versatility based on your stage position to make up for them being not as powerful as Ness's B-throw, as well as an even better combo throw which can lead to even more aerial options, including extensive footstool combos for much more damage, and some other simpler but effective followups, most notably a true kill combo into U-air or B-air if you read the DI.

And generally looking move by move, Lucas's moveset is definitely better than Ness's, with major improvements to undertuned moves like F-tilt, D-air, and even U-smash and neutral-B. Basically Lucas's only downgraded move is U-air, but since it can still true combo out of D-throw, that doesn't matter much.

I hope you all can understand my main bias now, and possibly consider moving Lucas up the tier list in the future.

 

[Zerp]

Lol, that was a active week for sure, wasn't it?

Anyway, since we're starting the next round tomorrow, here's the characters we can vote on for going first tomorrow:


I'll vote for .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I'm voting for .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Voting for , who has a moveset that's half amazing and half terrible.

 

[Zerp]

I swear, Palutena's name is stupidly hard for me to not make typos with consistently. I've managed to get Platuna, Paletuna, Plautena, and Paultena all in a row . Anyways...

Here's Palutena's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/15PRb524bY9DihJ13

And you can vote for the cast of Super Smash Bros 4 Switch minus Plautena, Shrek, Goku, and Waluigi. In other words, these guys:

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Since I've already expressed my opinion on all the characters multiple times, I'll only be commenting on the ones that still need a lot of changes and/or ones for whom my balancing ideas have changed.

is part of the former but not the latter, so I'll post my changes for her from last round:

• Make F-tilt a multi-hit move. This would make it do a bit more damage as well as pressure shields better.
• Decrease end lag of U-tilt so it's safer and it can start combos.
• Increase shield damage and stun of F-smash and D-smash. For being giant wings that crush things, they're surprisingly safe to shield.
• Increase range of D-air. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to read an air dodge with it but ended up missing the move entirely. It's not like its that powerful or quick, why does it also need to be so tiny?
• Make that goddamn Autoreticle have less end lag. It's laughably bad right now so it deserves some kind of buff, but I've realized that if the shots stayed locked onto the opponent, they might be broken for allowing easy and effective shield pressure.
• Increase range of counter. Like Peach, if it's going to be less powerful, it should be better in some other way, like range.

Voting for the bane of floaties (except Mewtwo), .

 

[Zerp]

I feel that Palutena's one of those low-mid characters that are just kinda good, but not really good, if that makes any sense. Not really sure what I'd fix with Palutena though other than the obvious; Making Auto-Reticle not trash, although I'm also assuming that she could use less lag in general and less start up on her kill moves so I'd suggest those as well, but don't take my word for it.

Here's Palutena's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uTcoTVQ6J04x-bilG7bpD5nhcG8HQ6qqQJCC5yv6TFY/viewanalytics
Here's Meta Knight's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/5WwrhNiWeVtNb8b32

You can vote for any of these scrubs who wish they were as good as Meta Knight was back in the Brawl days:


I vote for .

 

[MarioManTAW]

Meta Knight is mostly good, but do all of his specials really need to put him in helpless? Neutral-B and Down-B stick out as moves that put MK in helpless when other characters with similar moves can act after them (Luigi/Doc's Down-B and Greninja's Side-B).

Voting for the only other character to have ever been banned in a Smash game,

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I shall vote for , whom I think fits 's playstyle just right. Hmm...something about that makes me want to make her my secondary alongside and .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is quite balanced overall at the upper end of high tier. I could see him getting rebalanced a bit, though:

• Buff Drill Rush and Dimensional Cape a little bit to make up for their lag, preferably by making the former connect a little better and the latter have more invincibility.
• Remove that one hitbox of hit 1 of aerial Shuttle Loop that can launch the opponent high into the air. This would make it worse at early gimps, but in exchange connect more consistently.

Voting for one of the characters he destroys even though it's not canon, .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Any chance that Robin can be talked about? I recently modified the durability and recharge times for his tomes and Levin Sword to see how that helps him out.

Anyway, voting for Robin:

 

[Zerp]

As a former Meta Knight secondary I feel like this iteration of Meta Knight is perfectly fine as is on the surface, although I think that overtime, Meta Knight may end up being just a little too strong if he gets some more substantial development, but that's just a gut feeling.

Here's Meta Knight's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/189d6RIiDq7moTo_DXO0sFnjiD-kiDbnLFTseVWMf0Dg/viewanalytics
Here's Kirby's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Csl8o4sn9cPcsqVq2

You may vote for any of these people that Kirby is not-so secretly planning to boil alive once he gets back his old Chef ability:


I'll vote for .


Also, I realize I may be jumping the gun a bit here, but; on the off-chance that a Smash Switch port is revealed on the 12th/13th, how would you guys feel about having a special day to discuss said port?
I like being overly-prepared

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, AKA the character who got tons of buffs that don't really help him because his weaknesses were not addressed. Seriously, can we get this pink puffball a meaningful buff?

• I get that he's not that fast in his games, but does he really need the fourth worst air speed in the game, especially since his air game isn't overly threatening? Maybe buff it to the Pits' level, or something more than it is now.
• Buff D-throw to 1% per multi-hit instead of 0.8%, buffing the overall damage from 10.2% to 12%. Right now it's outclassed by all his other throws in usefulness, so it should gain at least some practical use.
• Somewhat decrease end lag of N-air and U-air, the former to prevent lots of SD's when edgeguarding and the latter to improve his juggle game.
• (optional) Slightly decrease end lag of Inhale so he can more consistently use his most defining characteristic.
• Give some super armor to the initial frames of Hammer Flip's swing so it isn't entirely useless given its lag.

Voting for a character who spends too much time studying magic to get their physical activity in, /.

 

[Zerp]

Kirby definitely needs some help, either increase his airspeed or give him something like Project M's Final Cutter that will help him approach, he shouldn't be great at approaching or what not, but the struggle it gives him is ridiculous.

Here's Kirby's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Jv8IHv-0FAB-xX-ASVQLurvctrw42qPpMq_8EKLGJyQ/viewanalytics
Here's Robin's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/exnTwmKkKwA2LMTy2
You may vote for any of these characters that Robin's three steps ahead of:


I'll vote for the eternally controversial .

 

[Tizio Random]

Give slightly better run speed, less endlag on arcfire and remove helplessness on Nosferatu. You have now a sure high tier character.

EDIT: I forgot my vote, I vote for

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

/ is probably in high-mid tier right now. Dath and a few others have used them to great success, but I still feel like they could use two buffs to rise into high tier:

• Okay, they're not supposed to be fast. But why give them the slowest run speed in the game, ruining potential followup opportunities? At least make it faster than current Jiggs and Ganon.
• Remove helplessness after connecting with Nosferatu in the air. Of all the unneeded flaws this move has, this one makes the least sense and hurts its usability the most.

And no, their grab does not need less lag. With how crazy of a combo throw and kill throw they have, making grab less laggy would be likely to break them, especially if they get the aforementioned run speed buff.


Voting for no Jeannes, .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Nosferatu causes helplessness? That I did not know since I never used it much. Well then, remove the free-fall status it puts him/her in when used in the air. Its recharge time ought to be reduced to 30 seconds. I think 6 more durability points on wind tomes can give her a few more chances to recover off-stage if she's being brutally edge-guarded. Increasing her dash speed to 's would be nice, too.

Before I go, I vote for .

 

[MarioManTAW]

Nosferatu causes helplessness? That I did not know since I never used it much.

It does, but only if it connects in the air.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Okay, since today we're talking about Robin, I might as well bring up the adjustments that I made to his tomes and Levin Sword. First up is the tomes...

I raised the durability of the Thunder tome from 20 to 48. I also modified how many durability points are used whenever Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder, or Thoron are used.

• Thunder: 2
• Elthunder: 4
• Arcthunder: 8
• Thoron: 16

This also goes as far as the custom special moves.

• Thunder+
  • Thunder+: 6
  • Elthunder+: 12
  • Arcthunder+: 24
  • Thoron+: 48
• Speed Thunder
  • Speed Thunder: 1
  • Speed Elthunder: 2
  • Speed Arcthunder: 4
  • Speed Thoron: 8

Unfortunately, Thunder+ is less durable than before, using 3x more durability points than Thunder, while Speed Thunder uses 0.5x the amount of durability points as Thunder. The recharge time also gets reduced to 600 frames, so the drawback for Thunder+ is mitigated a little bit. As for Speed Thunder, since it's less powerful than the other Thunder variants, it's made to be more durable; you could perform as many as 48 Speed Thunders in a row before the tome is used up. On a side note, all Thunder durability point values are a factor of 48.

For Arcfire, I raised its durability to 8, and it now takes 480 frames to recharge.

Elwind's durability gets increased to 20, but the biggest improvement for Elwind is that it now takes 240 frames to recharge. That basically helps Robin's recovery to an extent, as once the tome is used up, he won't have to wait long for a new Elwind tome to spawn. However, Robin still needs to be careful that he doesn't have one Elwind use left, or else his recovery will fall short.

Nosferatu's durability increases to 5, and takes 1800 frames to recharge.

Last up is the Levin Sword, where I raised its durability to 10 uses, and it takes 480 frames to recharge.

As for any other changes, I raised Robin's walk speed to 0.9 (walking as fast as Olimar), and raised his weight to 98 (tied with Mario).

 

[Zerp]

I feel like Robin could use some buffs, but I don't really want them, I'm still bitter about how often he got buffs when there was more pressing matters than him to be fixed at most of those times, sorry for my stupid bitterness. And of course, that doesn't mean he should just be ignored because one person is bitter.

Here's Robin's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1e71g__4CKW7g0AuU96sZn49BSAxEZz2Ga4jN_VIaSxc/viewanalytics
Here's Bayonetta's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/4gLk4zjswIB0HNA02

You may vote for any of these characters that didn't get changed in patch 1.1.6:

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Yeah... Bayo's smash attacks remind me of 's smash attacks (good reach, respectable knockback, bad start-up/recovery frames). According to frame data, her smashes are lacking in priority. That is the only thing I'd fix about .

Right...with that out of the way, I'm going to vote for a brawler who does not prefer the air, !

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Oh my, ... I'm not exactly sure how to balance her, because she seems pretty balanced on paper, but the crazy things she's done at even the highest level tournaments would prove otherwise. Here are my likely controversial opinions:

• I could see a buff to F-tilt, which is currently her worst move. Change the angles of hits 1 and 2 so they connect better.
• On the other hand, certain moves are just way too good given their damage, knockback, range, and frame data, these being U-air, B-air, and arguably U-tilt. These moves should either do less damage or be a bit laggier.
  
• I feel like the nerf to Dive Kick's combo ability was a bit too severe, but it's still quite safe. Either keep it as is, or raise the angle to 70 (pre-patch was 80, currently is 60) while giving it a bit more end lag and not bounce as much. These changes would make it less safe but better at comboing, further accentuating what makes her unique as a character.

Voting for the king of smash attacks, .

 

[Zerp]

Remember when people thought that her Pre-Patch MU with Jigglypuff was even and that she was nerfed so badly that she became a low tier? Those were some fun times.

Here's Bayonetta's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1f2ITwb8CZ_Vy6RVaHOVxEUOHBC5MZruoCvkXzYu9oo0/viewanalytics
Here's Little Mac's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/7mHpem3hGrBOU6k13

You may vote for any of these characters that Glass Joe is looking into getting tutoring from:


I vote for .