The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L1N3R1D3R]

FTFY.

First of all, wrong "whose". Second of all, obvious main bias. (I don't want to start this argument for the millionth time for everyone's sanity, so I'll leave it there.)

 

[MarioMeteor]

First of all, wrong "whose"

You can't be serious.

. Second of all, obvious main bias. (I don't want to start this argument for the millionth time for everyone's sanity, so I'll leave it there.)

But I won't. It doesn't take a genius to see that Jigglypuff is better than those two, regardless of whether or not they main Jigglypuff.

 

[L9999]

You can't be serious.

But I won't. It doesn't take a genius to see that Jigglypuff is better than those two, regardless of whether or not they main Jigglypuff.

Explain why Jiggs better than Ganon and Zelda, I can't see it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Explain why Jiggs better than Ganon and Zelda, I can't see it.

"How is this hunk of **** better than this shiny diamond?"

How isn't she better? She sucks less, it's really that simple. Better matchups, better frame data, better recovery, better costumes, better shades of pink, pretty much any way you can imagine. Honestly, it's Ganondorf and Zelda, it doesn't take much to be better than them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf can outreach Jigglypuff though, so it's probably one of those punish or be punished dilemmas.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Obviously needs huge buffs. Rollout needs to not cause helplessness, sing should be improved somehow. Rest should kill earlier and have less ending. And much more.

IMO her weight is fine. It's supposed to be her weakness, plus it makes her harder to combo. And it's fine she dies when her shield breaks, since she would of died most of the time anyways. Plus it's hilarious.

 

[L9999]

"How is this hunk of **** better than this shiny diamond?"

How isn't she better? She sucks less, it's really that simple. Better matchups, better frame data, better recovery, better costumes, better shades of pink, pretty much any way you can imagine. Honestly, it's Ganondorf and Zelda, it doesn't take much to be better than them.

recovery is better than Puff's in every sense possible. Her low % kill move don't have 2 seconds of endlag.
Up Smash has better frame data than a lot of Jigg's moveset. Also, Ganon with rage is scary, a single mistake means Foward Tilt semispike (or a Smash Attack to the face), and Ganon has burst punishers like Falcon Kick and Flame Choke. Jigglypuff can't kill safely outside of a lucky gimp, and Ganon can take a hit and survive if he misses a read unlike Jigglypuff.

 

[Zerp]

Heya, just going to give notice that today's update has a chance of being later than normal, I don't think it will be but I want to let you guys know that it's a possibility. Sorry.
Actually screw it, I'm definitely going to be late, but instead of waiting and giving a late update, here's tomorrow's poll so everything can at least function as normal, Kirby: https://goo.gl/forms/ePrEFKvIog4LNcU52
I'll close off today's poll when I get back, whether or not it's on time, so we're technically discussing Kirby AND Jigglypuff right now.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Just like Wii Fit Trainer, I want to play seriously, but he just has too many flaws for his game plan to work. He has trouble approaching, low survivability, no reliable means of killing, and surprisingly low aerial mobility. My suggested buffs:

+ Increase air speed to at least 0.9. Need I explain?
+ Decrease end lag of dash attack (FAF 54 --> 50) so it's at least somewhat useful.
+ Increase damage of D-throw (10.2 --> 12), so it noticeably out-damages his other throws to give it some sort of use.
+ Decrease end lag of N-air (73 --> 63), and make autocancels for it, F-air, and B-air start earlier.
+ Decrease end lag of U-air so it combos and juggles better.
+ Decrease overall lag of Hammer Flip and Stone so they aren't garbage.
+ Make Final Cutter either more powerful or quicker.


Voting Dabuz's waifu, .

 

[Zerp]

With Jigglypuff, there's alot of things I want changed, and believe me I'd love to talk about those, but that'd just drag this day on even longer. What I will say though, is that, honestly, at this point I'd take pretty much anything, I don't care much how they buff her, I just want buffs, I'd take crappy buffs if it mean't we were getting buffs.

Okay day's over now, here's Jigglypuff's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1o_6e3_-jYeebOejHz0gQVzLekLuFwzHpI_wKKnU3rqM/viewanalytics
And here's Kirby's poll, again: https://goo.gl/forms/ePrEFKvIog4LNcU52
You may vote for any of these strange organisms.


I vote for His Majesty .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

See two posts above for my thoughts on Kirby. Voting .

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don't play Kirby, but I've noticed that his neutral air and up air are really slow. They should probably fix those.

Voting Mewtwo.

recovery is better than Puff's in every sense possible. Her low % kill move don't have 2 seconds of endlag.

Jigglypuff doesn't bounce stupidly off ledges when she recovers.
Zelda is also cursed with awful frame data and sluggish movement.

Up Smash has better frame data than a lot of Jigg's moveset. Also, Ganon with rage is scary, a single mistake means Foward Tilt semispike (or a Smash Attack to the face), and Ganon has burst punishers like Falcon Kick and Flame Choke. Jigglypuff can't kill safely outside of a lucky gimp, and Ganon can take a hit and survive if he misses a read unlike Jigglypuff.

Unless that hit knocks him even so slightly offstage, in which he falls to his death due to his pathetic recovery.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Jigglypuff doesn't bounce stupidly off ledges when she recovers.
Zelda is also cursed with awful frame data and sluggish movement.

The irony with the latter statement is that Jigglypuff is a slower walker, AND a slower runner than Zelda. And of course, Zelda does run faster than Jigglypuff's air speed.

Unless that hit knocks him even so slightly offstage, in which he falls to his death due to his pathetic recovery.

It can depend on how far Ganondorf is sent flying though. Fighters with poor recoveries (including Little Mac) can still get back on-stage if they were sent flying at a high angle. It's the low angled knockback attacks that can potentially lead to the TKOs.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The irony with the latter statement is that Jigglypuff is a slower walker, AND a slower runner than Zelda. And of course, Zelda does run faster than Jigglypuff's air speed.

True, but Jigglypuff doesn't belong on the ground. She spends most of her time in the air, where she's much faster. Zelda can't do that, as she's slow in both regards.

It can depend on how far Ganondorf is sent flying though. Fighters with poor recoveries (including Little Mac) can still get back on-stage if they were sent flying at a high angle. It's the low angled knockback attacks that can potentially lead to the TKOs.

Even still, it isn't that hard to simply chase them offstage and hit them again, especially if you're a character like Sheik, Bayonetta, Jigglypuff, Mario, etc. who excel at edgeguarding.

 

[L9999]

Kirby. Buff his entire mobility. Congratulations, now Kirby can make use of his tilts and aerials without being hopelessly walled out and lose by timeout. Buff the distance of Final Cutter back to Brawl's, and make something to Dash Attack so it is not a complete abhorrent abomination of game programming.

I vote the Space Witch and her evil star child.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Even still, it isn't that hard to simply chase them offstage and hit them again, especially if you're a character like Sheik, Bayonetta, Jigglypuff, Mario, etc. who excel at edgeguarding.

It's all match-up dependent in the end though. And you also need to be careful that you don't commit suicide while trying to edge-guard, as one wrong or whiffed move could put you at a bad position.

 

[HYP3R]

+ Increase knockback of U-air or decrease its end lag, to make it kill or combo better.

Giving U-air more knockback would be a nerf, not a buff.

 

[MarioMeteor]

It's all match-up dependent in the end though. And you also need to be careful that you don't commit suicide while trying to edge-guard, as one wrong or whiffed move could put you at a bad position.

I mean, part of the requirement of being a good edgeguarder is being able to make it back to the stage. That's why Fox and Roy aren't considered to be good edgeguarders.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Giving U-air more knockback would be a nerf, not a buff.

The knockback increase I want would be pretty big, making it a decent killing aerial, so it wouldn't be a nerf. Again, I want EITHER more knockback OR less lag so it becomes either a kill move or a combo move, and not the subpar juggling move it is now.

 

[HYP3R]

The knockback increase I want would be pretty big, making it a decent killing aerial, so it wouldn't be a nerf. Again, I want EITHER more knockback OR less lag so it becomes either a kill move or a combo move, and not the subpar juggling move it is now.

There's really no need for U-air to kill, all of Kirby's smash attacks have no trouble killing, and if you're still having difficulty getting the kill there's Up Throw and B-Air as well. I really don't think handicapping Kirby's combo game is worth adding an extra kill move. It would make Up Tilt juggles almost impossible.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

There's really no need for U-air to kill, all of Kirby's smash attacks have no trouble killing, and if you're still having difficulty getting the kill there's Up Throw and Back Air as well. I really don't think handicapping Kirby's combo game is worth adding an extra kill move. It would make Up Tilt juggles almost impossible.

So then you have the other option of a combo move. Editing my post!

 

[DJBor]

I MISSED JIGGLYPUFF AND CLOUD
anyway, since my opinions are not in the poll, time for a catchup post.

Spoiler

My opinion of Cloud is very simple, and something I boast about often.
1. Nerf the startup and movement speed of neutral air, and increase its landing lag.
2. Nerf the startup and movement speed of up air, and increase its landing lag.
3. Nerf the length of down air, and increase its landing lag.
4. Decrease the base knockback of Forward Smash. But not too much.
5. Decrease the knockback growth of Limit Break Cross Slash a whoooole lot... but increase its damage to 30 instead of 26.
6. Cloud can no longer gain Limit chrarge from taking damage.
This way, Cloud is no longer the must-pick swordfighter he currently is. The Limit mechanic is great, but Cloud's extremely safe normal moveset makes Limit an over-the-top addition. These nerfs to normals and the reversion of Cross Slash to a damage-dealing move turn Cloud back into a balanced swordfighter, while still keeping his Limit gambit strong.

Jigglypuff's biggest flaws are that she lacks basic statistics that other characters take for granted: speed, power, defense, and range. Also, her specials are... to say the least, buggy, and don't work the way they should. Have you seen the way Mario abuses Rollout?
1. Decrease the cooldown of Rest from 4 seconds to 2.75 seconds. Rest always Star KOs.
2. Increase the hitbox size and active hitbox frames of Sing (and make Spinphony affect the whole stage while you're at it)
3. Rollout keeps going after hitting someone, instead of making Jigglypuff open to being punished. (Also, make a missed Rollout less punishable)
4. Pound is a more effective shield breaker.
5. Increase the base damage of Jigglypuff's Smash attacks by three percent.
6. Weight increased to 70.
7. All of Jigglypuff's throws receive less ending lag and more useful knockback properties. Her grab range is increased.
Now, she receives more power, defense, and range, while still relying on air speed to get around. This balances her major weaknesses and compensates for her insta-KO shield property.

(oh yeah, and Marth. But he falls in my balanced group)

As for Kirby... well let's see. I pretty much 100% agree with LINERIDER. He covered everything. I put Kirby in a solid mid tier.
Since I'm late, no reason to vote. Never mind, I'm going Zelda. Something I saw while looking back at other thought really got me mad...

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Kirby definitely needs buffs IMO. Probably to mobility, though I think his fair and u air should be improved.

 

[L9999]

Kirby definitely needs buffs IMO. Obligatory to mobility, though I think his fair and u air should be improved.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Wintermelon43]

One big thing that would help is making Final Cutter much better. Decreasing startup and ending lag would help to make it better. It would be nice to be able to have it as a good tool in neutral.

Improving Dash Attack and air speed a little would also be helpful.

 

[Zerp]

I'd like to buff his air speed, it's not like he'd be broken if he was a bit faster and I think it'd do him wonders.

Here is Kirby's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1VhkxlwBDkRxWO4AczXpIvfSN7oxP8wEIgH0BXITLNRE/viewanalytics
Here's Rosalina's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/lVQ5enP6auSHeE0r1

You may vote for any of these thingies.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

, the spark of lots of controversy because her jank rivals . I get the whole "puppeteer" thing where the puppet should be more powerful than the master, but what we have here is a little bit ridiculous. Rosalina on her own is almost helpless, with hardly any way to combo, rack damage, or kill, but as soon as you add Luma, all of that is thrown out the window and the duo becomes oppressive to most characters. Thus, I want Luma to be (mostly) nerfed and Rosalina to be (mostly) buffed to balance them out:

-- Decrease BKB on Luma's U-tilt, U-air, and D-air to remove crazy gimps. The main argument for having the BKB be so high is that it makes the move connect to Rosalina's version more reliably. This is incorrect most of the time because Luma can be separated from Rosalina, and even when they're next to each other, it's easy to hit with just Luma. And even when it does connect to Rosalina's version, it becomes a broken move, doing crazy damage and decent knockback for how quick and long-lasting it is.
-- Decrease range and increase lag of Gravitational Gimp. It would make her matchups against Ness/Lucas and projectile heavy characters like Pac-Man still be bad, but at least require some skill and strategy on the Rosalina player's side to steal projectiles.
-- EDIT: Decrease hitbox size and knockback of jab. It's likely the best jab right now for having huge AoE for really easy ledge traps, huge damage, and the possibility to either combo or kill. That's too much for a jab, TBH.
-- Increase duration of Luma's spawn time after dying (13 seconds --> 15 seconds), but in exchange:
+ Make Luma have more HP (50 --> 55) so it takes more effort to take it out for more reward.
+ Make Rosalina's attacks (except Jab and throws) have a bit less lag and a bit more knockback. This would make her not helpless without Luma and hopefully also balance her out with Luma to be around the same viability.
+ Since her recovery is weak, buff the actual recovery move Launch Star to go a bit farther more quickly. No, her air speed does not need a buff, because as with Luigi, that would buff her air game to insane levels as well as her recovery, which would be too much.
+ Maybe buff neutral- or side-B, but I'm not sure that would be wise.


Voting for the Super Fighting Robot, , who is definitely more than a "thingie", that's mean!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll just say that with Kirby, because Final Cutter does not give him much horizontal movement, he pretty much warrants having his air speed increased to around 1 (on my end, it's 1.04, tied with PAC-MAN). Those mid-air jumps need to be conserved as much as possible when you have a recovery move that's better designed for vertical recoveries; you can't rely on Upper Cutter all the time after all.

As for Rosalina, I'll just quote the last few posts that I've made regarding her. Yes, I know that there are those who are against my thoughts, but it's just my two cents on the matter.

After all the nerfs that she received in Smash 3DS's 1.0.4 update, Rosalina definitely isn't as strong as she once was. However, people have still complained about her being too strong, and yet all that you need to do is contain the Luma, and you've pretty much weakened Rosalina's offensive options for a while.

Anyway, there are some things that Rosalina has problems with, so I did do some attribute modifications on her. The most notable dilemma is her air speed, which is below average when compared to most other fighters. Combine that with the fact that Launch Star can't deal any damage, and you definitely have some recovery issues. And of course, Rosalina is the third slowest faller, so it's not easy for her to make safe landings if her adversary can walk faster than her air speed.

I did raise Rosalina's air speed to 1.25 (tied with Mewtwo) in hopes of improving her recovery issue, but this also makes Rosalina's air game more dangerous, especially when she edge-guards off-stage.

To finish things up, Rosalina doesn't need any nerfs, but her air speed issue can be a problem when your recovery move can't deal any damage, and sadly, Launch Star Attack is even less effective for recovery, as it halts Rosalina's momentum upon ending, and travels a shorter distance as well. On the other hand, making Rosalina faster in the air also makes her air game better, AND improves her longevity as well; you're basically countering one weakness with something that can potentially lead to even more hate.

I guess the problem that I have is that when you have to resort to Launch Star to recover high, Rosalina can't defend herself if the Luma isn't present. Having better air speed would at least help Rosalina avoid having to use Launch Star, unless she really needs it. And much like with Mewtwo, Rosalina levitates, though I only made small changes to her ground mobility, which are rather negligible (1.09 walk speed, and 1.65 run speed).

I know that this sounds rather selfish, but like I've said before, I've often wanted Rosalina to have one of the best air speed attributes of any fighter, only being slower than Yoshi and Jigglypuff (along with Limit Break Cloud, Wario-Man, and Giga Mac). Attribute hacking has made the air speed increase possible for me, but it's obviously something that can make competitive players quite salty if it ever saw daylight in a competitive environment.

 

[L9999]

While I don't like Rosalina in particular, I wouldn't change her for better on anything. As she is now she invalidates a lot of the cast.

 

[Alexander1583]

Im more of the type that would prefer to buff the rest of the cast(since i dont see utter dominance with rosalina or people spamming her like cloud). But lets just say i wouldn't shed a tear if she got nerfed. On what is a tricky question, but i would go with nerfs to the power of the luma and/or its spawn time.

 

[DJBor]

It's nerf or nothing.
Luma tilt KBG lowered significantly. All tilts.
Jab is a mess. Why should any character have a 7-point jab combo that deals unbelievable damage?
Up air. Up. Air. Nerf the BKB.
Down special is ridiculously overpowered. Shorter hitbox duration, increased FAF? Sounds fair.

I guess now that we have a tier list... here's my opinion on how to balance: All characters should be somewhere between B and E, and characters within those tiers are 100% subject to usage statistics and metagame development to determine their tier placement. All characters in the B to E range should not be buffed or nerfed. Except maybe Robin. And Bayonetta shouldn't be nerfed, honestly she should have been B tier anyway.

*sigh* Voting Zelda again.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

As for Rosalina, I'll just quote the last few posts that I've made regarding her. Yes, I know that there are those who are against my thoughts, but it's just my two cents on the matter.

It has become blatantly obvious how much main bias you have. She most certainly does not need ONLY a major buff, that's crazy.

"All you need to do is contain the Luma" And only a select few characters in the roster can successfully do that, which is why she invalidates so many characters.

"Her air speed issue can be a problem" What air speed issue? Her air speed is exactly 1, which is middle of the road (some characters wish they had this good air speed). Her aerial game is so deadly that an air speed buff would be way overkill. If you want to "improve her recovery issue", just buff Launch Star, the actual underwhelming part of her recovery, instead.

"Making Rosalina faster in the air also makes her air game better, AND improves her longevity as well; you're basically countering one weakness with something that can potentially lead to even more hate" You just said exactly why your air speed buff would be a bad idea. Her air speed is as low as it is for a reason; improving it not only helps recovery but also makes her air game more deadly than it already is AND makes her survive longer, there's no reason she needs a buff like that.

"It's obviously something that can make competitive players quite salty if it ever saw daylight in a competitive environment" You're right, it would make people salty, and they would be justified in their salt as I've shown.

Not only that, you're buffing it by at least 0.25, which is ridiculous for a character who's already at 1 air speed. Really the only characters that might need that kind of buff are King Dedede, Kirby, Ganondorf, and maybe Luigi. The biggest air speed increase anyone has gotten is Mewtwo, and that was only 0.1 (and his aerial game, while good, isn't nearly as oppressive as Rosalina's). I still don't think you quite realize how ridiculous of a buff this would be.

"I know that this sounds rather selfish" Well, yeah it is. All of this paired with the fact that you want to nerf Meta Knight, Rosalina's worst matchup, and Yoshi, who has the highest air speed, just drills this fact in further.

Luma tilt KBG lowered significantly. All tilts.

Just to tell you, it's not every tilt that's a problem, it's U-tilt, U-air, and D-air that are the problem. And they aren't ridiculous due to KBG, but rather their stupidly high BKB which should be lowered.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

L1N3R1D3R : Just so that you know, I did not touch Yoshi's air speed when I modified his attributes; it's still 1.28. Also, when compared to the rest of the roster, an air speed of 1 is actually on the "below average" level; 1.02 is the average air speed value, ranked 29th (and 30th) out of 58 (this excludes Final Smash fighters and Limit Break Cloud).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Just so that you know, I did not touch Yoshi's air speed when I modified his attributes; it's still 1.28.

It still doesn't change the fact that you want his weight to be nerfed. I merely mentioned air speed because his superior air speed to Rosalina seems to be the reason you want him nerfed in some way, which is ridiculous.

Also, when compared to the rest of the roster, an air speed of 1 is actually on the "below average" level; 1.02 is the average air speed value, ranked 29th (and 30th) out of 58 (this excludes Final Smash fighters and Limit Break Cloud).

Then just increase her air speed to 1.02 if anything. As I mentioned, 1.25 is WAY too much, and there's no denying that at this point.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't even know why I'm still coming here. You guys can continue playing the rating game without me, as I have nothing more to share that has not already been brought up in the past.

With that said, I'm out of here.

 

[Axel311]

Rosa is mostly fine, but people dying at 40% off the top and side from upair and dair is not. I'd reduce the BKB of dair a bit so it doesn't kill as early. Although I worry about making upair even better at juggling if you reduce the BKB. You might have to mess with the damage or add more endlag. Or you could potentially increase the luma respawn timer further instead of messing with upair, but that might be a bit much considering her results are pretty meh aside from Dabuz.

 

[DJBor]

"her results are pretty meh outside of Dabuz"
Falln, Atelier, Kirihara, Rayquaza, Xaltis, and even Abadango have great results with her.

Mario & Sonic Guy The nerfs I listed are not as major as you think. Yes, I meant to say BKB of tilts and up air.
Changing jab is not a nerf, but a fix. I remember long ago you mentioning its faults, which actually was one of the reasons I adopted that specific opinion. Now, with down special, yes it is a problem. Rosalina can pretty much go into a state that nullifies all projectiles, because of the length of activation looping over itself.

 

[Axel311]

"her results are pretty meh outside of Dabuz"
Falln, Atelier, Kirihara, Rayquaza, Xaltis, and even Abadango have great results with her.

I'm referring to super top level results that would carry her placement as top 5 on the tier list, as in getting top 8s at nationals, I know there are other extremely good Rosalina players. Bottom line is take Dabuz away and nobody thinks this character is top 5.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I'll do more explaining later, but I just wanna note I'm pretty sure Luma also has rage, and that's when a lot of game changing kills happen, when Rosa is at like 100 and the other is at like 30. So maybe decrease the strength of Lumas range. However, if nerfing up air and those stuff happen directly, then I think a nice compensation would be to buff Nair somewhat and Luma Shot to not make it terrible.

 

[Tizio Random]

If Luma wasn't affected by rage (like thrown items) many problems would have already been solved. Moreover, I like the concept of Rosalina being the best character in the game with Luma and the worst character without him and I also would like that to respawn Luma you have to do a down taunt so you must go aggro on your opponent during the SoRo part instead of just running away, I would compensate by making Luma not dying instantly when near the ledge; however it's too late now to completely rework the character.
If anything, reduce the hitbox on Luma multijab and KB on dair and the third frame of utilt. Uair is tough to deal with also because is Rosalina's the problem.

Voting for DA SUPPA FIGHTING ROBAT