The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Orion*]

rofl lmao at grain of salt

If it was salt I wouldn't have posted smart ***.
The difference between a lot of the posters in here and me is despite disagreeing with someone else I still realize that other people might have opinions that are better than mine, for whatever reason.
Despite disagreeing with so many of the suggestions posted in this board, and absolutely hating the way so many people insight discussion or arguments or whatever you want to call it, I still am for equal opportunity in different peoples opinions

If people want someone else to listen there are some things that should be recognized. Being able to type and put it in a nice format with a good looking essay is half the battle. If you're being a tool, forcing your ideas on other people (I see the irony in this statement) or if you are being rude your point won't get across. Theres a difference between being aggressive with something and blindly running in and not knowing what you're doing.

TL;DR

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar

I mean, come on, who can't beat MK's scrooging on SV? Where else is it even remotely a problem?

I seriously doubt you have ever even been scrooged by someone that knows what they are doing IRL.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I've tried very hard myself to do it...

 

[Orion*]

I've tried very hard myself to do it...

Your offstage game wouldn't make it that effective. If theres a serious risk of getting gimped instead of just taking a little damage every time you chase mk offstage then it becomes a LOT more problematic for the cast.

Just getting uair/down aired isn't that bad. It's the potential followups from it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I really wanted not to discuss TKD's new ruleset....
I mean, I didn't even shared it with mexican people :V

 

[MK26]

i was about to say it didnt look so bad, but...

Optional rule: Floor Settings
The TO may use the following rules instead of the ones in blue font:

Time limit: 10 minutes
If a match clocks out, the character -or team that includes the character-, that accumulated the most ground time, wins.

wat

6. Scouting rule: The side that won the previous round is allowed to reset character selection (repeat steps 4~5) once.
7. Each player is allowed to inflict Handicap upon his/her self. The match is to begin.

these are two interesting rules, actually

tbh there are good things and bad things about this ruleset

 

[John12346]

Well, he did say the Floor Rule was optional so TOs have the right to not use it under this ruleset.

Overall TKD's ruleset looks interesting. Legit? Perhaps.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Interesting, kinda. But no, it is NOT legit.

He tried to explain his motivations, but he just made it worse...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Okay so lets discuss something that ISNT a complete waste of our time.

(The last few pages made my eyes bleed and that's why I had to stop posting here for a bit.)

 

[WindMajor]

Well you are in the BBRRC, tell us: What wouldn't be a waste of time for us to discuss?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Anything that you want to address that is relevant to the Unity Ruleset of course

Although we've covered a few topics such as Japes/a few other controversial stages.

Conduct rules, the infinites..anything is pretty much fair game.

I just don't want this discussion to devolve into "STFU you're wrong" again.

 

[MK26]

How about TKD's scouting rule? Its use will prevent really hard counter matchups from appearing...say, I win the first match as DK and you want to cp me with your pocket D3 that I don't know about, I can pick DK the first time around and, if you go D3, I can call the scouting rule and pick someone else. If you don't have a pocket D3, then no problem for me. But what happens now is a DK might be scared off by the possibility of a D3 and not even be able to pick DK match 2.

How about if I beat you round 1 and you cp Brinstar? I don't want an MK ditto, so I don't pick MK, but if you really want to play MK I can call scouting and we'll have our ditto.

This is somewhat of a devil's advocate post, I want to see where this leads.

 

[John12346]

I win Game 1 and lose Game 2.

I pick Battlefield as the counterpick stage.

Opponent chooses Mr. Game and Watch, because he's a good character on Battlefield.

I choose Donkey Kong, because he has an alleged even matchup against Mr. Game and Watch, plus he's good on Battlefield.

Opponent calls scouting rule and switches to King Dedede.

Totally fair.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

The Scouting Rule completely destroys the concept of counterpicking in the first place. Or what its supposed to be rather. It doesn't seem well thought out at all. It turns the loser's CP into the winner's essentially.

 

[MK26]

he's resetting the character picks, not cp'ing you

you would have a chance to cp his d3 then

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Okay I figured I must have misinterpreted that.

Resetting the situation doesn't mean a hard counter can't occur though. I guess it can stop the "worst possible scenario" but its not flawless. I'm not really fond of this.

 

[John12346]

Oh, well MK26 made it sound like only the winner of the previous match could scout. -___ -;

I guess it's a somewhat legit rule, then.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Not really...if you can keep CPing each other you can just...do that forever. I don't quite understand the limits, so can somebody else explain it to me?

 

[MK26]

sorry, let me rephrase

If the winner calls the scouting rule, then essentially he rolls back the set's procedure to before the latest character picks, re-picks his character, and the loser can re-pick his.

Each person can do this once per set.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Ahh so like..

Let's say i win game 1, person CPs BF. I go DK and they go D3, I can go "wait, scouting rule" and then not go DK?

Terrible rule, ruins the point of CPs basically...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Ahh so like..

Let's say i win game 1, person CPs BF. I go DK and they go D3, I can go "wait, scouting rule" and then not go DK?

Terrible rule, ruins the point of CPs basically...

This is exactly what I said ..lol

If we're interpreting this correctly then yeah.

 

[MK26]

@ESAM: yes

but then you pick, say, falco, and he goes lol pikachu

because if you call scouting then he can re-pick his character after you re-pick yours

he still cp's you, but he cant auto-win off a cp unless he has two different ways to do so

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I win Game 1 and lose Game 2.

I pick Battlefield as the counterpick stage.

Opponent chooses Mr. Game and Watch, because he's a good character on Battlefield.

I choose Donkey Kong, because he has an alleged even matchup against Mr. Game and Watch, plus he's good on Battlefield.

Opponent calls scouting rule and switches to King Dedede.

Totally fair.

Well... Yeah. You're not going to be able to counterpick him, because he still gets to pick his char after you. All this does really is prevent a situation like DDD vs. DK in a situation where you don't know what your opponent is capable of playing. If your opponent tries to CP DK on you, and you use the scouting rule and go DDD, you'd better hope he doesn't have MK, Olimar, or the like up his sleeve... But it does prevent some very nasty surprises.

Ahh so like..

Let's say i win game 1, person CPs BF. I go DK and they go D3, I can go "wait, scouting rule" and then not go DK?

Terrible rule, ruins the point of CPs basically...

Not really. You don't go DK, but who do you go? If you were already going DK, do you have a top tier secondary? If not, you can probably still get counterpicked somehow; like, say you go Falco. They can still pull out their pikachu. It just gives one more little piece of help against "surprise, I win" counterpicking moments. This is one of the most interesting things I see coming out of TKD's ruleset, and I think it's pretty cool.

The other is his take on stage bans and counterpicking. While his stagelist kinda sucks ***, being able to reset stage bans after every round, and having two of them in the place of DSR? That's actually really, really cool. I think that's a really good idea. We could discuss that...

 

[John12346]

@ BPC

Oh, well MK26 made it sound like only the winner of the previous match could scout. -___ -;

I guess it's a somewhat legit rule, then.

10char

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Anything that you want to address that is relevant to the Unity Ruleset of course

Although we've covered a few topics such as Japes/a few other controversial stages.

Conduct rules, the infinites..anything is pretty much fair game.

I just don't want this discussion to devolve into "STFU you're wrong" again.

Global Ledge Grab Limit.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Before Rich Brown vs. Will gets brought up: IT IS NOT WILL'S FAULT IF OLIMAR CAN'T BEAT DK'S PLANKING.

If there is ONE character who can't beat a certain tactic from another character, then that is what we call a WEAKNESS. Dedede has an extreme amount of trouble with Metaknight's Mach Tornado. Should we impose a global Tornado move limit, including moves not proven to be broken but resemble Mach Tornado, including Mario's DAir, Luigi's Down-B, etc? No, we DON'T. Now if Nado by itself could dismantle EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME (even GANONDORF has ways to beat it, and MK should fear for his life if he's somehow over a blastzone) then maybe we would impost a limit SPECIFICALLY ON METAKNIGHT for Tornado.

Not the best example, but I work with what I can. Metaknight's planking is the only planking proven to beat every character in the game frame-wise except for another Metaknight. DK's planking is a weakness specific to the character Olimar. Seriously, it's not that hard for an Olimar main to pick up Dedede as a secondary, or alteratively some other character that can beat DK. There's no shortage of characters in that department. MAYBE Ivysaur might have the same problem, except it's Yoshi's Island and I'm pretty sure Ivysaur can beat the planking with a little move called Bullet Seed. Don't swat a fly with a nuclear missile. Use a flyswatter.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

idk bro, i really hate flies.....

 

[Flayl]

Olimar can deal with DK's planking. RB only did the correct thing 4 times the whole match and didn't time it appropriately.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Then there we go. I was certain it wasn't unbeatable, and apparently am right.

So the only character in the game whose planking has been proven to be a problem is Metaknight.

And don't give me this BS about sponsors being turned off by people planking the whole match. If they can get past the whole overly defensive playstyle of the game, I'm sure they can deal with a few characters (Pit, Jigglypuff, and Game and Watch come to mind) who might want to plank.

 

[WindMajor]

It's not so much that the sponsors want a pretty game as much as it's the sponsors want an appealing community.

Our community tolerates most of the defensiveness in this game, but people REALLY get turned off by the planking, and you can see it in the events and on the boards. It's a lot of negative light that the community casts itself under, and that's not appealing when you're trying to sell a gaming community to sponsors.

It's not just the game itself, it's everything around it as well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What irks me about the LGL is mostly that it's really hurting on chars that have beatable but effective planking that they would like to rely on. Not even the DKs or G&Ws... The Samuses, The ROBs, the Basically Anyone Playing Against Falcos.

 

[WindMajor]

Don't forget about the Toon Links.

And yes, I agree with you. I brought that up a long while ago, and I think it's cause of me that the LGL is the way it is now.

 

[MK26]

if the BRC recognizes that really only MK's planking is a problem, then why is there an lgl imposed on every character?

 

[WindMajor]

I'm only guessing that it's because of Will vs RB, and how after that, everyone jumped on the "LGL on the entire cast" bandwagon.

I'm also only guessing that the LGL is lower for only MK because they acknowledge that it's only broken for MK, and because they acknowledged the point that BPC brought up. In attempt to find middle ground, they put an LGL on everyone, but made it harder for everyone but MK to exceed it, so it's like if it was never there.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

we should have a global lgl. it is good for the community. however, it should be higher for everyone except MK. MK should be left alone, everyone else should have at least 65, but not more than 80. (i think the japanese use a lgl of 80 iirc)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

we should have a global lgl. it is good for the community.

I wish people would stop trying to improve the game themselves.

 

[Ghostbone]

I wish people would stop trying to improve the game themselves.

Weren't you the one who made a thread a while ago saying it was fine for us to do whatever we want with the game?

>.>

I think the main reason that a global LGL is needed is because it's the Unity Ruleset, many people wouldn't consider using it if there isn't a global LGL.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How right you are.

We should just play Coin Mode >_>

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Guys, you won't grab the ledge 50 times unless you are whoring it. Also, it only matters if the match times out. If your purpose is to time him out...count your Ledge grabs. 50 is a lot guys, one ever 10 seconds and you have to go back to the level eventually.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

we should have a global lgl. it is good for the community. however, it should be higher for everyone except MK. MK should be left alone, everyone else should have at least 65, but not more than 80. (i think the japanese use a lgl of 80 iirc)

65 isn't stopping anything.

I don't think you realize how hard it is to grab the ledge that many times unless you're being extreme and you're intent is to just ***** it out.

I mean there are way more extreme cases but still. Plus as ESAM pointed out it really doesn't matter unless the match goes to time. So MUs are so slow that they almost always go to time or close to (D3 vs ROB..so boring..) but in most cases it takes a conscious effort to attempt to bring a match to time.

Also I may not be posting a great deal today...my internet has been acting really stupid and I'm just going to get a better service hopefully within the next few days. I couldn't get on at all yesterday evening.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i said that because characters who can legit plank (g&w, pit, rob, etc) would be able to do short term planking against some of their more difficult MUs. sometimes planking is need for a lot more more than just whoring the edge and going for time out. for example, being edgeguarded by snake as pit requires you be patient on the ledge and time WOI-ing the grenades he places near the ledge and getting past his tilts and C4. this could EASILY take 15 regrabs to do in a mere 30 seconds (WOI ledge regrabbing is fast but pushes the nades too a safe distance so it is neccessary). same could be said about Rob trying to get up against falco. or g&w getting up against MK. all of them vs Diddy Kong.
it takes time and ledge grabs for several characters to just be able to get up safely. you guys who don't play a character with this handicap can't possibly understand that we may not be trying to plank to time out, we just wanna get off the ledge. you make it so that they can count our ledge grabs and then time us out if they are character's who can do that on stage (MK vs everyone, wario vs most people). 65 is not asking to much when you take legit gameplay into thought for the characters this hurts. like i said the general goal is not even be to time them out, just get back in the fight.