The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Mekos]

My man Arcansi going in! Lol their only argument to that is "why make bad characters better".

That comment in itself is so stupid. Well why are yall trying to get rid of a so called "good" character?

 

[MechaWave]

I support a MK ban >.>

But... don't you main MK? o:

I support it, too, though I'm fine if he's still in-or-out.

 

[Alex Strife]

IDC tournament turnouts remain the same in the region regardless xD.

 

[Arcansi]

My man Arcansi going in! Lol their only argument to that is "why make bad characters better".

That comment in itself is so stupid. Well why are yall trying to get rid of a so called "good" character?

Thanks man. :D

 

[Ghostbone]

It takes a lot less skill from the DK then the Lucas. There is an easy way to fix this, and I don't see why we shouldn't.

It doesn't take less skill from the DK, picking DK at the CSS takes skill, and if the opponent doesn't have enough skill not to pick Lucas that's their fault
^Might seem silly but CSS is a skill and we shouldn't try to help players who purposely pick bad characters. Now as for the match-up being DK's advantage, so what? There's no truly even match-ups besides dittos (and even then....) If you want to try to fix one match-up why not every match-up?

It's easy to implement, enforcable, and makes sense in the sense that it balances our game farther.

If all of this is true, why not put it in?

How is it easy to enforce? What if the DK doesn't do it frame perfect and the Lucas has 1 frame to escape, how would you know? And it doesn't make sense to put it in, unless you want to start doing things like banning MK from using the b button, banning blizzard in the IC vs Ganon match-up, banning sheik's f-tilt against Fox, banning Falco's chain-grab > spike against Wolf, etc.

 

[Zankoku]

It takes a lot less skill from the DK then the Lucas. There is an easy way to fix this, and I don't see why we shouldn't.

Sure you could, but you shouldn't be forced too.

Basically my argument is this.

It's easy to implement, enforcable, and makes sense in the sense that it balances our game farther.

If all of this is true, why not put it in?

I think the logic is somewhere along the lines of "unless the imbalance causes a universally broken strategy to form, the game should not be rebalanced by the players." Since nobody is universally forced to use a character than can be infinited by grab release or Dedede's dthrow, Unity advocates allowing it.

 

[Ghostbone]

But... don't you main MK? o:

That I do xD

 

[Mekos]

Lucas is not bad. What makes people call him "bad" is the grab releases and infinite. I'm not asking to take away the grab release lol. No u can't hit me after I release(I'm not saying this haha). lol that is silly.

Alot of TO's don't allow it. I'm just holding this argument because yall seem to want to be the main ruleset for all of US.
And u hear what my man alex said. It doesn't affect attendence. Why would u guys want me to change characters. U want to see a variety and not everyone lean toward mk right.

Those players that play a game to just change a character based on who u play and not master a character are not the greatest. I just played cheese and beat him. It was the first time I played an ice climbers too. I two stocked his ice climbers on yi and 2 stocked his mk on rainbow cruise. He coached will on how to just focus on gaying me. I gaurentee the next time when I play him he will just go DK.

My point is most top players stick to their one character. Very few people can play alot of characters at high level play. I can only think of Ally. And it's funny because everything links back to the mk ban topic. Most people are fustrated wit mk because they dominate someone's character and then they just switch to mk and beat them.

 

[Arcansi]

It doesn't take less skill from the DK, picking DK at the CSS takes skill, and if the opponent doesn't have enough skill not to pick Lucas that's their fault
^Might seem silly but CSS is a skill and we shouldn't try to help players who purposely pick bad characters. Now as for the match-up being DK's advantage, so what? There's no truly even match-ups besides dittos (and even then....) If you want to try to fix one match-up why not every match-up?

CSS may be a skill, but is it a skill we want to test?

How is it easy to enforce? What if the DK doesn't do it frame perfect and the Lucas has 1 frame to escape, how would you know? And it doesn't make sense to put it in, unless you want to start doing things like banning MK from using the b button, banning blizzard in the IC vs Ganon match-up, banning sheik's f-tilt against Fox, banning Falco's chain-grab > spike against Wolf, etc.

1. It doesn't matter unless he gets out or he very obviously makes it possible to get out. Note that a 1 frame window is quite literally 1/60th of a second, and not able to be consistently used to get out of a grab at all.

2. Some of those examples I wouldn't be against. All others I don't know enough about.

I think the logic is somewhere along the lines of "unless the imbalance causes a universally broken strategy to form, the game should not be rebalanced by the players." Since nobody is universally forced to use a character than can be infinited by grab release or Dedede's dthrow, Unity advocates allowing it.

In the DDD vs X matchup, or whatever other matchup we see, is not the...Wait a second, your lying to my face!
(And I really don't appreciate it.)

Unless you actually have proof the ability to ledgegrab as many times as you want forces people to play someone who can be beaten by that strategy. (or something else in the metagame does).

 

[Ghostbone]

Lucas is not bad. What makes people call him "bad" is the grab releases and infinite. I'm not asking to take away the grab release lol. No u can't hit me after I release(I'm not saying this haha). lol that is silly.

Yeaa....cause that makes him bad.

Alot of TO's don't allow it. I'm just holding this argument because yall seem to want to be the main ruleset for all of US.
And u hear what my man alex said. It doesn't affect attendence. Why would u guys want me to change characters. U want to see a variety and not everyone lean toward mk right.

Your secondary doesn't have to be MK.

 

[Arcansi]

Yeaa....cause that makes him bad.

But he doesnt have to be bad.

EDIT: NVM 1 min difference is fine.

 

[Tesh]

Mekos picked a bad character and its someone else's fault that the match was boring and took very little skill to win?

Lucas is LOW TIER. He is a bad character for whatever reason. I could say "Link is not bad, he is only "bad" because of his recovery and mediocre kill power". Should we ban gimps then? I bet you shamelessly Upsmash a poor jigglypuff main, exploiting her low weight.

There are alot of really "easy" ways to win against bad characters. They have alot of flaws or sometimes a few MAJOR flaws that make them bad. Lucas doesn't even have it as bad as the rest of low tier. Bowser mains would love it if only 3-5 characters could combo them from 0-100 for free. Link mains would love it if only 3-5 characters could gimp him easily. Just play keepaway in those matchups with infinites. EVERYONE does it vs ICs.

 

[Arcansi]

Useless stuff

This says nothing about why it is good to keep it in, only that it's the status quo so why not change it.

 

[Mekos]

I'm just holding my argument until the i post the vid. Wants chibo gets it up. I am not mad fellow smashers.

But if u really want me to play keep a way I will. This is what I'm saying this gayness leads to. Me running the whole time. Obviously, u guys think that is competitive smash and are okay with that.

 

[Ghostbone]

This says nothing about why it is good to keep it in, only that it's the status quo so why not change it.

Burden of proof dude.
It's good to keep it in because there's no way to take it out and enforce it properly, plus it's not warranted.

I'm just holding my argument until the i post the vid. Wants chibo gets it up. I am not mad fellow smashers.

But if u really want me to play keep a way I will. This is what I'm saying this gayness leads to. Me running the whole time. Obviously, u guys think that is competitive smash and are okay with that.

You don't see Melee players banning YL because his matches are gay do you?
We don't ban things for being gay (with the exception of a LGL, but nobody would use the unity ruleset if there wasn't one, so there's no choice )

 

[Zankoku]

In the DDD vs X matchup, or whatever other matchup we see, is not the...Wait a second, your lying to my face!
(And I really don't appreciate it.)

Excuse me? You're going to have to tell me exactly what I'm lying about, here.

Unless you actually have proof the ability to ledgegrab as many times as you want forces people to play someone who can be beaten by that strategy. (or something else in the metagame does).

Why are you bringing ledge grab limit into this? As far as I can tell that is a rule that was implemented because a bunch of tournaments used it, and Unity by their own limitations have to cater toward the common rules preferences. I don't know if ledge stalling itself is universally abusable or over-centralizing.

 

[Arcansi]

Burden of proof dude.
It's good to keep it in because there's no way to take it out and enforce it properly, plus it's not warranted.

I have made this argument before, but I will make it again.

It is easy to enforce due to the application of the infinite replay code.

It is warranted because it makes our game better as a game competitively, and is easy to enforce.

 

[Mekos]

Apex is going to be the biggest tourney ever. More than just smashers will be watching the live stream. My fellow smashers think about what u want the world to see. A poor little boy with blond hair getting grabbed and abused over and over and over and over?

It's very easy to enforce silly! Tourneys already do it. U just say it's not allowed. U can still combo after it or have a free smash!

 

[DeLux]

There aren't any ongoing discussions at the moment regarding disallowing infinites.

 

[MechaWave]

IDC tournament turnouts remain the same in the region regardless xD.

Not necessarily. ROB tends to have extremely high results in MK-banned tournaments, it's just not many ROB players attend those when they appear. Some other characters where MK is a disadvantageous matchup may help them move up and develop the metagame to match up to what would be the next best character: Diddy Kong, though the whole A Tier would need some practice.

 

[Arcansi]

Excuse me? You're going to have to tell me exactly what I'm lying about, here.

See the quote right below that one for an explanation(LGL, if you want me to say it).

Why are you bringing ledge grab limit into this? As far as I can tell that is a rule that was implemented because a bunch of tournaments used it, and Unity by their own limitations have to cater toward the common rules preferences. I don't know if ledge stalling itself is universally abusable or over-centralizing.

Do you even know if that's a common rule preference?

Not trying to doubt you without my own proof, but burden of proof is on you here and I have proof that would appear to deny yours, so...............................

NOTE: If not, your point is invalid, just so I've made that clear.

There aren't any ongoing discussions at the moment regarding disallowing infinites.

Except this one.

 

[Ghostbone]

I have made this argument before, but I will make it again.

It is easy to enforce due to the application of the infinite replay code.

It is warranted because it makes our game better as a game competitively, and is easy to enforce.

What if the wii doesn't have an infinite replay code?
That's going to hold up tournaments a lot already, it's not viable.
So no it's not easy to enforce.
Plus you can't tell whether someone had say, a 1 frame window to escape just from the replay.
You're going to need to get someone with the frame advance code or something to go through it frame by frame, and that's going to take a while...

And it doesn't make our game better competitively either, it makes it worse.
You want a more balanced game? Go play BBrawl.

 

[Mekos]

Guys!! I got something for u!! For now until the clash vids are up. Watch this. Tell me what u think?
It's an old vid too. I have knew skills lol that help me even more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UZTNfEC5X4

 

[Arcansi]

What if the wii doesn't have an infinite replay code?
That's going to hold up tournaments a lot already, it's not viable.
So no it's not easy to enforce.

Lets assume the code isn't on the wii. We have many options from here.

1. Observers, witnesses.

2. TOs/Judges. Yes, you could call them to watch. No, it wouldn't look good for either party.

And it doesn't make our game better competitively either, it makes it worse.
You want a more balanced game? Go play BBrawl.

Burden of proof, please.

Irrelevant.

So no it's not easy to enforce.
Plus you can't tell whether someone had say, a 1 frame window to escape just from the replay.
You're going to need to get someone with the frame advance code or something to go through it frame by frame, and that's going to take a while...

What? Any regrabs that you cannot escape from are banned. If you do escape from them if your opponent tries to initiate them, good for you.

Any ones that can be escaped from are not banned.

 

[MechaWave]

I find it funny how some people who main Ness/Lucas, the other just purposely picks Marth for his infinite.

 

[Ghostbone]

Lets assume the code isn't on the wii. We have many options from here.

1. Observers, witnesses.

2. TOs/Judges. Yes, you could call them to watch. No, it wouldn't look good for the guy who did it.

Cause witnesses can sooooo easily tell whether someone had 1 frame to escape right?

 

[Zankoku]

Do you even know if that's a common rule preference?

Not trying to doubt you without my own proof, but burden of proof is on you here and I have proof that would appear to deny yours, so...............................

NOTE: If not, your point is invalid, just so I've made that clear.

First you boldly accuse me of lying, and next you play coy? You may perhaps be a better emotional tease than I.

Oddly enough in the same sentence that you say you're not trying to doubt me without proof, you claim that you do have proof. If there is indeed data that refutes what I am saying, then asking me to go look up what you already have recorded is inefficient at best.

And, based on what I have seen back when the BBR released recommended rules, yes, the two most common deviations from said rules were
1. the stage lists, and
2. a ledge grab limit.

 

[Mekos]

I find it funny how some people who main Ness/Lucas, the other just purposely picks Marth for his infinite.

and that's why i made this. U shouldn't lose to a person who just picks marth randomly for the grab. Same thing for when people switch to mk. People just need to get better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UZTNfEC5X4

lol see yall don't wanna talk about the proof in the pudding eh? I outplayed this marth so bad the only way he could kill me was the grab crap.
One who even went for the infinite

 

[Ghostbone]

So Marth vs Lucas isn't that bad you're saying.
Yet you think Marth is too broken against him and should be nerfed?

 

[MechaWave]

and that's why i made this. U shouldn't lose to a person who just picks marth randomly for the grab. Same thing for when people switch to mk. People just need to get better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UZTNfEC5X4

I have the tendency to switch to MK when I'm practicing, but that was a long time ago. I've been getting better with Peach but I'm at no level of greatness.

Yes, I saw the video Mekos. Excellent work, it's like Marth is a pedo and Lucas is avoiding him at all costs. xD I can't give exact feedback because my experience with Lucas (and Marth, for that matter) is extremely awful.

 

[Mekos]

Marth is bad...i just think DK is worse. Ghostbone. I am outplaying that marth based off of mindgames and perfect spacing. Why if he gets a grab at 0% he should be able to kill me?
My point to show that vid is that I completely outplayed the player. The only way he got a kill was the grab stuff. Imagine if he won that. That is what happened with Will(he got other kills. but the main ones were from the infinite grabs).

And even in that match u see how I am retreating. Against better players who will infinite I will have to run away real hard!! lol

 

[Arcansi]

First you boldly accuse me of lying, and next you play coy? You may perhaps be a better emotional tease than I.

I don't understand how im playing coy. but that's a compliment so ok.

Oddly enough in the same sentence that you say you're not trying to doubt me without proof, you claim that you do have proof. If there is indeed data that refutes what I am saying, then asking me to go look up what you already have recorded is inefficient at best.

I have inconclusive proof that would be overridden by something more conclusive.

Note that my proof is basically nobody here likes the LGL at all. And that I'm pretty sure there is no argument for it being on the ruleset, but I might argue that later/already have, I don't remember.

However, inconclusive proof is most definitely better that nothing, as long as it is on the right track, which mine is.

And, based on what I have seen back when the BBR released recommended rules, yes, the two most common deviations from said rules were
1. the stage lists, and
2. a ledge grab limit.

'Two most common' is way too ambiguous.

It could be 75% of tournies having a different stagelist and 12% having an LGL.

Also that doesn't mean the TO took into account the ledge games of Pit/G&W, and others. You guys definitely should be, and not removing them for no reason.

 

[Tesh]

Honestly, you want a flaw fixed for your character, but would you support banning gimps vs link like I said? Or banning vertical kill moves vs Jiggs? Or landing consecutive hits against Bowser? Or shielding against Ganondorf? Gonna ban living past 170 against Sonic?

All of your arguments DO apply to ICs. You said earlier that ICs takes more skill to chaingrabs. I'll agree there, but then you bring up what people are going to see? You think ICs chaingrabs are fun to watch? You think outsiders watching will cheer with eyes wide in amazement at two little kids throwing a space bird back and forth and then hitting him off the top of the screen?

How about only risking getting grabbed near the ledge? Then you can easily mash out a few times and not lose your stock. You want to be able to get around your characters weaknesses without thinking it out? Don't main Lucas if you can't handle playing as Lucas.

 

[Player-1]

That's a flaw in Lucas' character Mekos, choose a different character.

 

[Ghostbone]

Marth is bad...i just think DK is worse. Ghostbone. I am outplaying that marth based off of mindgames and perfect spacing. Why if he gets a grab at 0% he should be able to kill me?

Because he's Marth and you're Lucas, and you messed up and got grabbed in a bad position and didn't mash out fast enough so he got way more damage than he should have.

My point to show that vid is that I completely outplayed the player. The only way he got a kill was the grab stuff. Imagine if he won that. That is what happened with Will

Completely outplayed? Part of it would have been the Marth's inexperience with the match-up but you did a good job obviously.
If he won that? I guess that means he would have outplayed you.

Will outplayed you obviously, it's your fault for not having a counter to DK.
Again other character mains do it, I know some Yoshi mains were forced to pick up secondaries specifically for Lucario, why shouldn't you have to?

 

[Mekos]

Tesh u have a few points but most are just wrong. Against marth I do do that actually. U will see in the dk vid that isn't possible because of where lucas lands.

Comparing infinites to character weight, gimps, and stuff is just silly. cmon bro

 

[Mekos]

I disagree with your logic. I win does not mean u outplayed yer opponent in my mind, Not at all

 

[Arcansi]

Honestly, you want a flaw fixed for your character, but would you support banning gimps vs link like I said? Or banning vertical kill moves vs Jiggs? Or landing consecutive hits against Bowser? Or shielding against Ganondorf? Gonna ban living past 170 against Sonic?

This is a strawman, Tesh.

All of your arguments DO apply to ICs. You said earlier that ICs takes more skill to chaingrabs. I'll agree there, but then you bring up what people are going to see? You think ICs chaingrabs are fun to watch? You think outsiders watching will cheer with eyes wide in amazement at two little kids throwing a space bird back and forth and then hitting him off the top of the screen?

If I did refrence watchers, it was as a side thing, not a major point. Also this doesn't disprove that it would be good to remove from a watchers perspective.

Also, only some of them apply. The one where I say 'not characters where it is a VERY large part of their metagame against the entire cast', although in not so many words.

How about only risking getting grabbed near the ledge? Then you can easily mash out a few times and not lose your stock. You want to be able to get around your characters weaknesses without thinking it out? Don't main Lucas if you can't handle playing as Lucas.

Only risking getting grabbed = only initiating shieldgrabbable moves. There are a LOT of shieldgrabbable moves in almost every matchup, and basically saying 'You just shouldn't use those when your not near the edge' makes the matchup worse.

 

[MechaWave]

People talking about banning the ICs' chaingrabs? It's what make them who they are. At least with the ICs they're manageable (KO Nana, free Popo KO).

Though I'm not siding whether Marth's infinite should be banned or not, it's just plain silly.

 

[Ghostbone]

Tesh u have a few points but most are just wrong. Against marth I do do that actually. U will see in the dk vid that isn't possible because of where lucas lands.

Comparing infinites to character weight, gimps, and stuff is just silly. cmon bro

Why is it a problem that Lucas can't beat DK? D3 has it just as bad vs IC.

And it's not silly to compare those things, being susceptible to an infinite is a weakness, how do you not see that?