The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Ghostbone]

They skew matchups completly when available to be used (all of this is with the exception of IC's, obviously).

They remove a large amount of the skill definition in the matchup in question, on both players part.

They force players to play other characters, so if someone wants to play DK, they need to also have a secondary to deal with D3, which requires more skill.
So the skill argument isn't necessarily true.

IC also have match-ups heavily in their favour because of the infinite.

 

[Mekos]

I don't understand why the unity committee compares standing infinites to Ic's. Lol. Not the same at all.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't understand why the unity committee compares standing infinites to Ic's. Lol. Not the same at all.

Yes
Yes they are the same.

 

[Arcansi]

Your answer is in bold

Why should they be able to infinite everyone but the others can't do it to whom they can?

This is the Unity Ruleset Discussion.

Why are infinite grabs legal? (With the exception of IC's, as it's pretty much their whole metagame.)

Your answer is also in bold.

I would appreciate it if you would read my post before responding.

They force players to play other characters, so if someone wants to play DK, they need to also have a secondary to deal with D3, which requires more skill.
So the skill argument isn't necessarily true.

IC also have match-ups heavily in their favour because of the infinite.

That is true, I meant that my point doesn't include banning the IC's infinites, sorry.

It forces them to have a much larger amount of skill then their opponent to prove they have any more, which isn't really fair. (this seriously outweighs 60-40 matchups, maybe even 70-30.)

Yes
Yes they are the same.

They are not the same. Standing infinites are standing and do not make up a large amount of the metagame of that character.

IC's infinites do.

 

[Ghostbone]

They would have an even deeper metagame without the infinite, they would just be a worse character.

 

[Mekos]

No they aren't. Or correct me if I'm wrong. Dk and marth just have to press the grab button over and over after the release. I see Ice climbers inputting multiple buttons.

 

[DRDN]

Because its their metagame doesn't make it any less of a problem

I did read it but you did answer your question ICs have a standing infinite essentially why make them special

Ghost said it best and mekos go TRY the infinite and fail a bunch it takes timing and a calm hand to do it just like ICs

 

[Ghostbone]

No they aren't. Or correct me if I'm wrong. Dk and marth just have to press the grab button over and over after the release. I see Ice climbers inputting multiple buttons.

DK has to do more, Marth has to do more.
Marth's isn't even an infinite, it's a walking chain-release afaik.

 

[Mekos]

Just wait for the vids guys. And tell me if you think it is healthy for the community because that is what yall are concerned for. The vids will be a good basis for our discussion

 

[Mekos]

Are u serious!! Well if that is the case. I guess ban theirs too. But I'm not really down for that cuz I truely don't understand it. I mean I can't do ics chain grab. But I can definitly do marths and dk's infinite and I only play lucas

 

[Ghostbone]

Just wait for the vids guys. And tell me if you think it is healthy for the community because that is what yall are concerned for. The vids will be a good basis for our discussion

When I see vids of D3 vs IC I hardly think that's good for the metagame
But then I think, well why didn't the D3 player go another character.
Same with any video of a bad character being *****, why didn't say, the Jigglypuff player go a different character against Snake...

Edit: Oh and DK's isn't exactly hard, I mean it's just grab, turn-around, turn-around grab, but that's more than just spamming grab over and over like you claimed.

 

[Ussi]

How would you actually enforce a no infinite rule on IC?

Cause what about like throw > fair > grab > throw > fair > grab

Or SoPo's dthrow alone..

 

[Chuee]

ICs are different because you can separate them....
Also @ D3 vs ICs
I don't think I've seen a vid of that MU that ended that badly for D3...

 

[Ghostbone]

How would you actually enforce a no infinite rule on IC?

Cause what about like throw > fair > grab > throw > fair > grab

Or SoPo's dthrow alone..

You can tech the fair after a certain point, so that wouldn't be an infinite.
Neither is Popo's d-throw chain-grab.

 

[Mekos]

U def. didn't read my posts. I was the one doing the ******. And when he got a grab it changed the game. I've advanced the lucas metagame but the next step to overcome this is to get a lead and literally run way the WHOLE game. Is that what yall want? When M2k gets a lead and runs yall complain. Some of u you complain so much that u want him banned. But u are promoting it. Hypercritical

Taking a while to answer this one huh...

 

[DMG]

Well I don't blame people for having that mentality. That's like being mad at people who want MK players to scrooge and play gayer. Wanting the gayest thing to happen, if it's legal and allowed, is asking people to play more optimal.


As far as infinites go, idk. We have such a subjective line of what's allowable and what's not that you can easily find different contradicting rules on varying infinites. Even taking IC's out of the equation, you have varying rules on standing infinites, walking infinites, situational infinites (like normally you can't infinite a character, but then you get them at a slope change/edge/etc and it turns into one), etc.


Take grab release infinites for example. To do damage during these infinites, and to keep some of them working, you have to pummel the other character. Technically, characters should be able to get out of most grab release infinites that require a pummel for multiple reasons. If you adopt the super K Prime mash method for example, you can get out of grabs extremely quick. This makes pummeling under certain % thresholds basically give the person a free get out of jail card if your infinite only works if they air release, and if you need a ground release they can try to time this mash period to go after you pummel and try to get out under the small windows available.


Does this mean we should ban the infinite, even if there are ways out of it that definitely have been demonstrated? Maybe, maybe not. But that's probably something not many people considered when just saying "**** infinites, they are gay."


As far as DK goes also, technically you see him do more than just regrab over and over. He's moving around to make sure you can't do anything right? I mean even he has to do more work than Dedede who just sits there and regrabs. Which brings up another thing. For Dedede's infinite requiring a pummel to unstale the Dthrow, why remove his infinite then? Dedede's pummel is very slow and takes up a lot of time before being "done". Because of this, he has probably the largest "mash window" for someone being grabbed to escape from.


His infinite REQUIRES the pummel. Otherwise they get out. But by the very act of pummeling, you allow the person a huge window to get out. So, why ban it then if it stops working because of this condition? I mean you could still ban it for being gay, or for being boring to watch. But at that point you're basically admitting to not banning it specifically because it breaks the game competitively, but because it's "dumb".




Either way, UNITYYYYYYYY *Rick James out*

 

[Ghostbone]

U def. didn't read my posts. I was the one doing the ******. And when he got a grab it changed the game. I've advanced the lucas metagame but the next step to overcome this is to get a lead and literally run way the WHOLE game. Is that what yall want? When M2k does it yall complain. But u are promoting it. Hypercritical

Good job, you've learned you have to play gay to win at Brawl.
Don't like it, go play melee
No but seriously we don't balance the game around bad characters, if you want a balanced game go play BBrawl or something.

ICs are different because you can separate them....
Also @ D3 vs ICs
I don't think I've seen a vid of that MU that ended that badly for D3...

You can get other characters in the air, or stay on a platform where the infinite won't work.
D3 vs ICs is so bad The match-up chart has it as +3 if that gives you any idea how bad it is.

 

[Ussi]

You can tech the fair after a certain point, so that wouldn't be an infinite.
Neither is Popo's d-throw chain-grab.

well..

So then when would IC get in trouble for initiating an infinite?

 

[Arcansi]

I'm going to just try and address points instead of quoting because the thread advanced itself while i went and found a video (that I'm not using).

What about banning all grab-releases/chaingrabs that are both

1. Not ICs doing it.

2. Unescapable and almost garunteed to net over 70% damage(or a kill, or some other random number that is within the realm of common sense, e.g. not 200% or 300% like the current rule.

Enforcing is easy. Lets say the rule says you can't do it more then twice.

You play the match, some guy grab releases you more then twice, you end the match early, take a replay, show the TO(or just have a witness).

This is about trying to make the game more balanced, so going another character, while an option, isn't an answer. (also, you can get cp'd you know.)

 

[Mekos]

DMG good point. But u will see this in the vid. I get out at low %. But after high % u cannot mash out fast enuff. Also, like someone explained the dk infinite is not hard. He just turns around and grabs that it.

@ghostbone - yer mentality is terrible. U are contradicting what this whole ruleset is supposed to be for. To create a healthy community for brawl. Yer talk basically leads to everyone should just go metaknight. Get that trolling out of here. We are being serious. And my lucas isn't bad. He is only bad because of people like you who want to allow this obvious gayness. I could have made history for him at clash 1. but was stopped by a dk that infinite grabbed me. I went toe to toe wit nairo a top mk, the best character in the game. The character yall cry over. So lucas is not bad.

And REMEMBER its not like im saying ban the grab release to smash or anythin.

 

[DMG]

Oh I know it's not "hard". I'm not disputing that at all. But the statement that he only has to press 1 button is a bit misleading since he does have to dance around. Compared to Dedede pressing Z buffered over and over lol.

 

[Bizkit047]

U def. didn't read my posts. I was the one doing the ******. And when he got a grab it changed the game. I've advanced the lucas metagame but the next step to overcome this is to get a lead and literally run way the WHOLE game. Is that what yall want? When M2k gets a lead and runs yall complain. Some of u you complain so much that u want him banned. But u are promoting it. Hypercritical

So Lucas (and Ness) having a gigantic gaping flaw to their character means that it should not be exploited because...it's not fair? You choose to main a character that gets infinited by more than just ICs. That isn't anyones fault but your own. Do you think it's fair for Ganon mains to outplay their opponent but get curb stomped because the character has technically unwinnable matchups?

If you ban standing infinites you might as well ban all of them.

 

[Mekos]

I agree bizkit. Ban all standing infinites. Plus from my knowledge u can still combo from them. Free smash or whatever. U still have gayness! lol. I am not talking soley for my character. I only was not agreeing with the ics cuz I don't understand that one.

@DMG - I exaggerated. Sorry that is not wise in a debate.

 

[Ghostbone]

@ghostbone - yer mentality is terrible. U are contradicting what this whole ruleset is supposed to be for. To create a healthy community for brawl. Yer talk basically leads to everyone should just go metaknight. Get that trolling out of here. We are being serious

I support a MK ban >.>
Your mentality is just really scrubby.
"This is cheap ban it" isn't good enough.

well..

So then when would IC get in trouble for initiating an infinite?

They can't grab you after a b-throw without being disqualified.
Problem solved.

Banning infinites is dumb anyway, what's the difference really between a Pikachu using a 0 > death on fox, and Sheik using a 30(?) > death on Fox, or D3 infiniting DK for the kill.

 

[Arcansi]

As far as infinites go, idk. We have such a subjective line of what's allowable and what's not that you can easily find different contradicting rules on varying infinites. Even taking IC's out of the equation, you have varying rules on standing infinites, walking infinites, situational infinites (like normally you can't infinite a character, but then you get them at a slope change/edge/etc and it turns into one), etc.

Make a less subjective line?

Take grab release infinites for example. To do damage during these infinites, and to keep some of them working, you have to pummel the other character. Technically, characters should be able to get out of most grab release infinites that require a pummel for multiple reasons. If you adopt the super K Prime mash method for example, you can get out of grabs extremely quick. This makes pummeling under certain % thresholds basically give the person a free get out of jail card if your infinite only works if they air release, and if you need a ground release they can try to time this mash period to go after you pummel and try to get out under the small windows available.

Keep: Ones that can be mashed out with X button presses per second (A high amount that pretty much anyone can reach with practice).

Ban: Ones that cannot be mashed out of, or escaped in any way shape or form without inhuman button pressing or something in that realm of possibility.

Do this with a scale, E.G. the grab is banned after X percent, and in between N & G percent (Numbers close to the limit.) you are only allowed L amount of regrabs.

Also, if the window to escape is extremely small, treat it as being inhuman to consistently release upon, because it is.

Does this mean we should ban the infinite, even if there are ways out of it that definitely have been demonstrated? Maybe, maybe not. But that's probably something not many people considered when just saying "**** infinites, they are gay."

See Above.

I support a MK ban >.>
Your mentality is just really scrubby.
"This is cheap ban it" isn't good enough.

What about "This degrades competition by a fair amount"?

Banning infinites is dumb anyway, what's the difference really between a Pikachu using a 0 > death on fox, and Sheik using a 30(?) > death on Fox, or D3 infiniting DK for the kill.

Grab is an extremely strong option in brawl.

I don't know exactly what those death combos are, but assuming they're unavoidable after being initiated (doubt it, but possible), and easy to get...

They're still probably not as easy to get as a grab.

 

[Ghostbone]

Make a less subjective line?



Keep: Ones that can be mashed out with X button presses per second (A high amount that pretty much anyone can reach with practice).

Ban: Ones that cannot be mashed out of, or escaped in any way shape or form without inhuman button pressing or something in that realm of possibility.

Do this with a scale, E.G. the grab is banned after X percent, and in between N & G percent (Numbers close to the limit.) you are only allowed L amount of regrabs.

Also, if the window to escape is extremely small, treat it as being inhuman to consistently release upon, because it is.

Waaay too complicated to be easily enforceable.

Remember the golden rules of banning.
Discrete
Warranted
Enforceable.

 

[Mekos]

still nice tho arcani. I like that. DMG getting out of the grab passed like 30% is inhuman. I will show u the vid when it comes.

@ghostbone - As a competitive community u want to create competition that is fun to watch. That is not fun at all. Other communities lol at us when they see that. This is the skill of brawl players!? That is what they say. And they change the youtube vid lol. Why do u think MLG did not allow it!? They planned to have a stream. It would be embarrassing to them to have that up. "This is our top players ****** with a easily seen dumb broken situation". lol. Get that out of here.

 

[Arcansi]

still nice tho arcani. I like that. DMG getting out of the grab passed like 30% is inhuman. I will show u the vid when it comes.

Thanks so much.

 

[DMG]

It's not inhuman, just hard to do. Ask Reflex.


Either way, my main point is that people tend not to fully analyze infinites/the context of the infinite when talking about banning it, and prefer to use blanket judgements on whether to ban it or not.

 

[Ghostbone]

@ghostbone - As a competitive community u want to create competition that is fun to watch. That is not fun at all. Other communities lol at us when they see that. This is the skill of brawl players!? That is what they say. And they change the youtube vid lol. Why do u think MLG did not allow it!? They planned to have a stream. It would be embarrassing to them to have that up. This is our top players lol. Get that out of here.

lol you have no idea.
They laugh when we ban items, when we ban stages, and laugh at our LGL, and would laugh if we ban infinites.

 

[Arcansi]

So Lucas (and Ness) having a gigantic gaping flaw to their character means that it should not be exploited because...it's not fair? You choose to main a character that gets infinited by more than just ICs. That isn't anyones fault but your own. Do you think it's fair for Ganon mains to outplay their opponent but get curb stomped because the character has technically unwinnable matchups?

No I'm not, but I can't argue everything at once, now can I.

It should not be exploited because it ruins competition in a way that is unfair, uncompetitive AND horrible to watch AND play.

If you ban standing infinites you might as well ban all of them.

Why?

It's not inhuman, just hard to do. Ask Reflex.


Either way, my main point is that people tend not to fully analyze infinites/the context of the infinite when talking about banning it, and prefer to use blanket judgements on whether to ban it or not.

I don't know who Reflex is, Real Talk.

I understand that, but I have to go through everything to make sure my argument has no holes and is therefore right.

Else I'm wrong and I have to change my point.

 

[Mekos]

Good point DMG. Sorry if I come off that way. The proof is in the pudding tho. I will bring the vid when it is up and I want u to tell me what u feel in your soul!

 

[Bizkit047]

I agree bizkit. Ban all standing infinites.

You misunderstood me. This is more concise: If you're going to ban standing infinites, you might as well ban all infinites. It does not make any sense to ban standing infinites but not others just because to you it's "more gay." I think it's equally gay to see Ganon have free losses to ICs because he has absolutely no safe approach. At least for Lucas Vs DK you have the options.

 

[Mekos]

What he said - "It should not be exploited because it ruins competition in a way that is unfair, uncompetitive AND horrible to watch AND play." Something that takes no skill and is in the game should be gone and enforced. Mk takes skill at high level play but yet some of yall want him gone. Super hypocrites! If yer losing to a scrubby mk then u suck and get better.

 

[Ghostbone]

Lucas vs DK still takes skill from the DK side to win.
Lucas has options for staying away, has nair which is only -5 on shield or whatever, so DK doesn't have a guaranteed grab, and he can platform camp the whole time if necessary.
It's not like it's an auto-win.
And even if it was, you can still pick a different character, Yoshi mains do it because of how bad Lucario is, why shouldn't you do it because of how hard Marth or DK are?

Edit: And what the hell is this the technique taking little skill argument.
It doesn't take skill to press the A button.
Ban A moves?

 

[Mekos]

lol that a button comment was funny

 

[Arcansi]

You misunderstood me. This is more concise: If you're going to ban standing infinites, you might as well ban all infinites. It does not make any sense to ban standing infinites but not others just because to you it's "more gay." I think it's equally gay to see Ganon have free losses to ICs because he has absolutely no safe approach. At least for Lucas Vs DK you have the options.

I think your example is pretty bannable too, although I would have to have more then a glance at all infinites to determine if their bannable or not.

I'm just not currently into arguing 2 arguments at once (see: I always have more antis then I do supporters for some reason.)

 

[Mekos]

But anyways ghostbone. I only go lucas and focus on making him better. I'm not a mk sellout or any other character sellout. If I lose, I get better from that experiance! I have advanced his metagame that I can get passed marths now. Even with their infinite. The way his grab infinite is keeps lucas in front. Dk's goes back into the stage. facing Will was the first time I played the best DK. Well, I've learned from that and know now I just need to run. Is that what u want my friend?

Anyways...like I said earlier. I know I can get past it! I will use perfect spacing, outplay him, and get the lead. But then I need to RUN AWAY the rest of the time. That is not healthy for the community. Do u understand this?

 

[DMG]

Good point DMG. Sorry if I come off that way. The proof is in the pudding tho. I will bring the vid when it is up and I want u to tell me what u feel in your soul!

Yo dawg


Don't tell me proof in the puddin son. Razer knows bout that.

 

[Arcansi]

Lucas vs DK still takes skill from the DK side to win.
Lucas has options for staying away, has nair which is only -5 on shield or whatever, so DK doesn't have a guaranteed grab, and he can platform camp the whole time if necessary.
It's not like it's an auto-win.
And even if it was, you can still pick a different character, Yoshi mains do it because of how bad Lucario is, why shouldn't you do it because of how hard Marth or DK are?

It takes a lot less skill from the DK then the Lucas. There is an easy way to fix this, and I don't see why we shouldn't.

Sure you could, but you shouldn't be forced too.

Basically my argument is this.

It's easy to implement, enforcable, and makes sense in the sense that it balances our game farther.

If all of this is true, why not put it in?