The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Vinylic.]

whoah whoah woah. Now don't be talking about marth like that. His attacks are very powerful.

 

[Mekos]

Also Tesh playing an edge game is very risky at high level play. I'm not sure if yer aware of that. But most of the time it is bad to position yourelf there. U being the one closest to the edge I mean.

 

[Zankoku]

I have inconclusive proof that would be overridden by something more conclusive.

Note that my proof is basically nobody here likes the LGL at all. And that I'm pretty sure there is no argument for it being on the ruleset, but I might argue that later/already have, I don't remember.

However, inconclusive proof is most definitely better that nothing, as long as it is on the right track, which mine is.

Then it would be prudent of the community to host tournaments without LGL.

'Two most common' is way too ambiguous.

It could be 75% of tournies having a different stagelist and 12% having an LGL.

Also that doesn't mean the TO took into account the ledge games of Pit/G&W, and others. You guys definitely should be, and not removing them for no reason.

I have reason to believe that TOs did not take into account the ledge games of any characters (besides Meta Knight) when they implemented LGL. It still happens, just like how you're advocating removing standing infinites - rules are put in place largely due to how convinced TOs are from potential attendants that there is a problem, rather than due to results. I'll make no comment on whether I think this is for better or worse.

Specifics escape me at the moment, but for a while it seemed that the only tournaments that did not use an LGL were ones in the Midwest, and the only ones that even pretended to follow the recommended stage list was the northeastern section of the Midwest.

 

[Player-1]

I disagree with your logic. I win does not mean u outplayed yer opponent in my mind, Not at all

the game also involved being able to CP. By losing in any way means you are getting outplayed since CPing is part f the game. You can say you outplayed him as far as spacing, mindgames, and technical abilities goes, but not the game as a whole.

 

[Mekos]

Okay so help me understand yalls thinking.

If a player wins by doing a standing infinite to smash for all three kills the whole match. That means he outplayed the other player?

 

[Ghostbone]

the game also involved being able to CP. By losing in any way means you are getting outplayed since CPing is part f the game. You can say you outplayed him as far as spacing, mindgames, and technical abilities goes, but not the game as a whole.

This
Excluding randomness, e.g. Halberd's hazards, tripping, etc. when you lose a set that means your opponent is better than you at Brawl.

 

[Tesh]

How is that silly? Its a weakness of the character you picked. Its an attribute that you KNEW applied to your character. You like his power don't you? You like the good attributes of the character don't you?

Playing the edge game is the risk you have to take because you picked a character that can get destroyed on stage by a grab. Why do you think the ruleset should improve your character but not mine? Your rule is just as enforceable as one i just came up with for Sonic. "If your damage % ever rises above 150 and a Sonic is on the opposing team, you must SD to cover Sonics poor killing ability". Why should Sonic work so hard to land kill moves when a MUCH BETTER CHARACTER can kill him with like a frame 6 move?

 

[Arcansi]

Cause witnesses can sooooo easily tell whether someone had 1 frame to escape right?

See the post I posted before yours for the counter to that. Note that you ignoring my arguments essentially means their right, correct? Which would mean you should stop arguing, correct?

Maybe it's just me.

Won != Outplayed, by definition. E.G. I'm playing MK vs Ganon as Ganon, and read you 70% of the time, and take the best option I have.

I can still lose, quite easily

 

[Player-1]

Okay so help me understand yalls thinking.

If a player wins by doing a standing infinite to smash for all three kills the whole match. That means he outplayed the other player?

yes .

 

[Mekos]

Okay I understand what yall are saying

 

[Ghostbone]

Okay so help me understand yalls thinking.

If a player wins by doing a standing infinite to smash for all three kills the whole match. That means he outplayed the other player?

Yes.
Because the other player was silly enough to pick a character that works against.
Just like spamming chain underneath a platform for 8 minutes is outplaying your opponent if they're Ganondorf.

 

[Bizkit047]

Mekos: Play to ****ing win. If that means you have to time out DKs, then you time out DKs. No one likes to watch Sonic run away for 8 minutes when he gets a lead, but that's how Sonic wins. We can't be like "Oh well don't use (insert tactic here) so your opponents char doesn't have to play gay".

 

[Mekos]

Alright guys I understand yalls logic now. Well I'll still show the vid for a chance. But I think I know how it will still turn out. If it still hold nothing then I will definitely just do that Bizkit.

Remember one thing tho. We were also saying what was best for the community. I still don't think allowing that is positive for it. That is one main point remember?

 

[Zankoku]

Remember one thing tho. We were also saying what was best for the community. I still don't think allowing that is positive for it. That is one main point remember?

On the contrary, I feel that the stigma the community has against "playing gay" is a negative thing, rather than the necessity of players to "play gay" in certain match-ups.

 

[Ghostbone]

Alright guys I understand yalls logic now. Well I'll still show the vid for a chance. But I think I know how it will still turn out. If it still hold nothing then I will definitely just do that Bizkit.

Remember one thing tho. We were also saying what was best for the community. I still don't think allowing that is positive for it. That is one main point remember?

Allowing MK is really ****ing negative for the community, yet he's not banned yet.
Once he is we can reconsider that, but even then, there's a bunch of reasons why we shouldn't start to surgically alter every match-up in the game to try and make them even. (which if you don't do, you're just introducing a bunch of double standards into the ruleset, and that's bad)

 

[Arcansi]

Then it would be prudent of the community to host tournaments without LGL.

Too many people just copy/paste the Unity ruleset for me to be able to counter the argument 'I don't want to practice something that's not going to happen outside my region'.

I have reason to believe that TOs did not take into account the ledge games of any characters (besides Meta Knight) when they implemented LGL. It still happens, just like how you're advocating removing standing infinites - rules are put in place largely due to how convinced TOs are from potential attendants that there is a problem, rather than due to results. I'll make no comment on whether I think this is for better or worse.

So as it stands, I am right and ledge games should be taken into account, Correct? If so, thanks.

Although I can see why it was implemented, if it doesn't hold up when put under scrutiny why should it stay?

Specifics escape me at the moment, but for a while it seemed that the only tournaments that did not use an LGL were ones in the Midwest, and the only ones that even pretended to follow the recommended stage list was the northeastern section of the Midwest.

No worries, I believe you. I just can't draw a lot from stuff that isn't decently specific. Hope you understand.

the game also involved being able to CP. By losing in any way means you are getting outplayed since CPing is part f the game. You can say you outplayed him as far as spacing, mindgames, and technical abilities goes, but not the game as a whole.

The game as a whole is the sum of all it's parts. Each part should come up to a percentage, and when cping comes up as literally 33% or more, we have a problem.

This
Excluding randomness, e.g. Halberd's hazards, tripping, etc. when you lose a set that means your opponent is better than you at Brawl.

Not as a whole.

It means they are better then you in one matchup, on one stage, at that time.
Note that I'm trying to change the requirements for being 'better at Brawl'. So this argument seems silly.

Yes.
Because the other player was silly enough to pick a character that works against.
Just like spamming chain underneath a platform for 8 minutes is outplaying your opponent if they're Ganondorf.

Your character is bad, therefore it shouldn't be made better.

Please explain how this makes sense.

 

[Player-1]

@Arcansi, the RC will be bringing stuff up regarding CPing shortly.

As far as this specific example of infinites...you don't see random people bringing out their pocket DK and beating every Lucas they play, clearly it requires a good amount of skills in other areas in order to win this MU.

 

[Arcansi]

Playing the edge game is the risk you have to take because you picked a character that can get destroyed on stage by a grab. Why do you think the ruleset should improve your character but not mine? Your rule is just as enforceable as one i just came up with for Sonic. "If your damage % ever rises above 150 and a Sonic is on the opposing team, you must SD to cover Sonics poor killing ability". Why should Sonic work so hard to land kill moves when a MUCH BETTER CHARACTER can kill him with like a frame 6 move?

And a sonic is the only opposing character, for one. Else it is abusable in doubles.

2. I'm pretty much OK with rules like this being added, with of course going more in depth and making it likely more specific, if it is even needed.

 

[Mekos]

MK is not negative. There are two reasons why people want mk banned I think.
1. Because they beat someone's character and they switch to mk.
-Well that is their fault. You shouldn't lose to someone who doesn't even main mk. Just take responsibility and get better. Smash is about reads. As long as there is not an infinite u can overcome the other character with spacing, predictions, etc. Cmon yall! A lucas went toe-to-toe with Nairo.

2. M2k
Guys if u compare M2k to other top players he can be stopped.
Lets use ADHD for an example. ADHD is considered the best diddy yet my friend complains about mk's brokeness. Well I love ADHD but he can get better. All of us have flaws in our gameplay we can get better. Analyzing my pal he always goes for unnecessary spikes EVERYTIME. For example, on delfinio he even tried to spike nairo while nairo was sharking. It was easy to see and he took percent everytime. That is just one example. I believe in ADHD that he can take out M2k. But I feel he is at a stage where he is no longer growing. This can be seen by the fact he complains about Mk. Because excuses are signs of the weak. U give the circumstance power over yer ability to change when u make excuses.
Many of u are at that stage. U cry when yer tactics fail. Make new tactics.

 

[Bizkit047]

Remember one thing tho. We were also saying what was best for the community. I still don't think allowing that is positive for it. That is one main point remember?

What's best for the community is to not create arbitrary rules. DK's infinite on Lucas is not over-centralized to the metagame, unlike MK. If DK could infinite everyone and the metagame changed into "Pick DK and do an infinite or you probably won't win", then it would be a real problem. It's not fair that Ganon is completely not viable due to having so many bad matchups (far worse than Lucas Vs DK), but that's not enough reason to take action on it just because it's not fair.

Lucas is a bad character and he will stay a bad character with or without standing infinites. You make it sound as if people go DK on you and beat you just by using his infinite.

 

[Zankoku]

So as it stands, I am right and ledge games should be taken into account, Correct? If so, thanks.

Although I can see why it was implemented, if it doesn't hold up when put under scrutiny why should it stay?

If people don't go beyond words and actually complain with action, then Unity has no reason to act a total lack of evidence towards wanting change.

 

[Arcansi]

@Arcansi, the RC will be bringing stuff up regarding CPing shortly.

As far as this specific example of infinites...you don't see random people bringing out their pocket DK and beating every Lucas they play, clearly it requires a good amount of skills in other areas in order to win this MU.

You don't see Lucas.

Because of this, nobody has a pocket DK to beat Lucas'

Also, just because this doesn't happen doesn't mean it's not an issue when the matchup does happen.

Also, it in no way proves what skill is or is not needed to win the matchup.

 

[Mekos]

lol get em Arcansi. To back my pal up. More people are aware of Marths instead of Dk's. And do just what u say player 1 but with marth instead. That's why I made that vid to help out my lucas mains.

 

[Arcansi]

If people don't go beyond words and actually complain with action, then Unity has no reason to act a total lack of evidence towards wanting change.

You see, I would.

However, people in my region (italics because I already said this and you ignored it)aren't going to play with a ruleset that won't hold up at Apex or other large events/events outside their region.

And I am pretty sure that is how other TO's/Attendees feel about it too.

So it's not like nobody wants change (words very easily can be people wanting change, btw.)

It's just that we have to enact it as a large group/a whole, which is VERY difficult to organize.

OR, we need you guys to change it.

NOTE: Won't be able to respond until tomorrow morning, school tomorrow

 

[Mekos]

What's best for the community is to not create arbitrary rules. DK's infinite on Lucas is not over-centralized to the metagame, unlike MK. If DK could infinite everyone and the metagame changed into "Pick DK and do an infinite or you probably won't win", then it would be a real problem. It's not fair that Ganon is completely not viable due to having so many bad matchups (far worse than Lucas Vs DK), but that's not enough reason to take action on it just because it's not fair.

Lucas is a bad character and he will stay a bad character with or without standing infinites. You make it sound as if people go DK on you and beat you just by using his infinite.

I take that challenge bizkit! I'm making him better. ANd yall need to do the same with yer characters instead of just crying over mk. Mk forced my lucas to get creative and for me to advance his metagame. At genesis 2 I couldn't touch m2k. At Clash 1 we went back and forth! Every tourney I grow and watch what I did wrong. And see how I can get better. I also, practice new setups and create new techniques

 

[NearZzz]

MK is not negative. There are two reasons why people want mk banned I think.
1. Because they beat someone's character and they switch to mk.
-Well that is their fault. You shouldn't lose to someone who doesn't even main mk. Just take responsibility and get better. Smash is about reads. As long as there is not an infinite u can overcome the other character with spacing, predictions, etc. Cmon yall! A lucas went toe-to-toe with Nairo.

2. M2k
Guys if u compare M2k to other top players he can be stopped.
Lets use ADHD for an example. ADHD is considered the best diddy yet my friend complains about mk's brokeness. Well I love ADHD but he can get better. All of us have flaws in our gameplay we can get better. Analyzing my pal he always goes for unnecessary spikes EVERYTIME. For example, on delfinio he even tried to spike nairo while nairo was sharking. It was easy to see and he took percent everytime. That is just one example. I believe in ADHD that he can take out M2k. But I feel he is at a stage where he is no longer growing. This can be seen by the fact he complains about Mk. Because excuses are signs of the weak. U give the circumstance power over yer ability to change when u make excuses.
Many of u are at that stage. U cry when yer tactics fail. Make new tactics.

mks not broken just get better.

i have seen mks that don't even play beat players who take top 4 at nationals, but i guess they just have to get better.

the only time i see mks lose is if when they don't know the mu.

 

[Mekos]

wow show me a video of a mk that doesn't even play beat ADHD, Gnes, Atmoskm or any of the consistant top placing players. Are u serious! That is so disrespectful to them!

 

[ぱみゅ]

MK is not negative. There are two reasons why people want mk banned I think.

(stuff)

You just exposed yourself at not knowing what are you talking about.

I think the first one is half true, but not everyone is THAT biased.

 

[Yink]

Mekos, Lucas and Ness suffer from a grab release and yeah, it sucks. There shouldn't be a ban on a DK infiniting you, or Marth or whatever. You chose to main Lucas so you get to take his imperfections along too.

It's all or nothing. I'm sure you get that though.

 

[Player-1]

MK is not negative. There are two reasons why people want mk banned I think.
1. Because they beat someone's character and they switch to mk.
-Well that is their fault. You shouldn't lose to someone who doesn't even main mk. Just take responsibility and get better. Smash is about reads. As long as there is not an infinite u can overcome the other character with spacing, predictions, etc. Cmon yall! A lucas went toe-to-toe with Nairo.

2. M2k
Guys if u compare M2k to other top players he can be stopped.
Lets use ADHD for an example. ADHD is considered the best diddy yet my friend complains about mk's brokeness. Well I love ADHD but he can get better. All of us have flaws in our gameplay we can get better. Analyzing my pal he always goes for unnecessary spikes EVERYTIME. For example, on delfinio he even tried to spike nairo while nairo was sharking. It was easy to see and he took percent everytime. That is just one example. I believe in ADHD that he can take out M2k. But I feel he is at a stage where he is no longer growing. This can be seen by the fact he complains about Mk. Because excuses are signs of the weak. U give the circumstance power over yer ability to change when u make excuses.
Many of u are at that stage. U cry when yer tactics fail. Make new tactics.

This is just outright wrong, I really don't see anyone ever saying MK should be banned because of either of these 2 facts lol.

You don't see Lucas.

Because of this, nobody has a pocket DK to beat Lucas'

Also, just because this doesn't happen doesn't mean it's not an issue when the matchup does happen.

Also, it in no way proves what skill is or is not needed to win the matchup.

I can just look at specific Lucas players such as Mekos that ever enter tournament and it never happens.

That 2nd part doesn't even make sense.

 

[Mekos]

You just exposed yourself at not knowing what are you talking about.

I think the first one is half true, but not everyone is THAT biased.

I meant negative for the community. But I still see what u mean. I agree he has had some bad affects on the community. I still hold true to that people need to just get better tho. Smash is a heavy mental game. Like the Dk thing. I have realized that I do what it takes to get a lead and then run! lol

 

[Player-1]

And Mekos I really don't see how you can say we should ban standing infinites like DK on Lucas just because it makes the match boring to watch when that's also a main factor of MK and say that he shouldn't be banned, that's just being hypocritical.

 

[NearZzz]

wow show me a video of a mk that doesn't even play beat ADHD, Gnes, Atmoskm or any of the consistant top placing players. Are u serious! That is so disrespectful to them!

to who? the mks?

I find it disrespectful that you keep spouting the same "get better" argument to people like those you just mentioned.

I remember when pink was goin to toe with m2k and then someone told m2k how to beat lucas came in and pink was doomed.

if the mk knows what to do u effed.

 

[Ghostbone]

MK is not negative. There are two reasons why people want mk banned I think.
1. Because they beat someone's character and they switch to mk.
-Well that is their fault. You shouldn't lose to someone who doesn't even main mk. Just take responsibility and get better. Smash is about reads. As long as there is not an infinite u can overcome the other character with spacing, predictions, etc. Cmon yall! A lucas went toe-to-toe with Nairo.

2. M2k
Guys if u compare M2k to other top players he can be stopped.
Lets use ADHD for an example. ADHD is considered the best diddy yet my friend complains about mk's brokeness. Well I love ADHD but he can get better. All of us have flaws in our gameplay we can get better. Analyzing my pal he always goes for unnecessary spikes EVERYTIME. For example, on delfinio he even tried to spike nairo while nairo was sharking. It was easy to see and he took percent everytime. That is just one example. I believe in ADHD that he can take out M2k. But I feel he is at a stage where he is no longer growing. This can be seen by the fact he complains about Mk. Because excuses are signs of the weak. U give the circumstance power over yer ability to change when u make excuses.
Many of u are at that stage. U cry when yer tactics fail. Make new tactics.

-calls other people weak for making excuses
-makes excuses for why he loses to DKs

 

[Mekos]

wow show me a video of a mk that doesn't even play beat ADHD, Gnes, Atmoskm or any of the consistent top placing players. Are u serious! That is so disrespectful to them!

this ^. Please show me a vid of a random mk who doesn't play beating a "pro".

 

[Bizkit047]

I take that challenge bizkit! I'm making him better. ANd yall need to do the same with yer characters instead of just crying over mk. Mk forced my lucas to get creative and for me to advance his metagame. At genesis 2 I couldn't touch m2k. At Clash 1 we went back and forth! Every tourney I grow and watch what I did wrong. And see how I can get better. I also, practice new setups and create new techniques

I almost beat M2K too. But neither of us did. Until you do beat a top MK (as you are clearly a top Lucas), you can't throw around those "almost beat" situations like they're relevant.

 

[NearZzz]

this ^. Please show me a vid of a random mk who doesn't play beating a "pro".

i didn't say random i said mks who dont play.

ill go find it

 

[Mekos]

Well show a vid of a mk that doesn't play then

 

[Zankoku]

You see, I would.

However, people in my region (italics because I already said this and you ignored it)aren't going to play with a ruleset that won't hold up at Apex or other large events/events outside their region.

And I am pretty sure that is how other TO's/Attendees feel about it too.

So it's not like nobody wants change (words very easily can be people wanting change, btw.)

It's just that we have to enact it as a large group/a whole, which is VERY difficult to organize.

OR, we need you guys to change it.

NOTE: Won't be able to respond until tomorrow morning, school tomorrow

This would indicate a lack of either majority desire or strong desire to remove the LGL. You claim people don't want to use rules that deviate from Apex, yet Apex itself had several rules that differed from Unity. There are MK-banned events popping up all around the country. There was even one or two tournaments experimenting with a 2-stock format.

Making excuses about how people are afraid of having a rule set that is different in one (possibly major?) way when there are plenty of tournaments these days that are different in several other major ways does not make me sympathetic to your plight, sorry.

 

[Mekos]

-calls other people weak for making excuses
-makes excuses for why he loses to DKs

yer wrong. I have already overcame that. I said I learned I just need to run. U didn't comprehend that. I brought it up as to say I felt it wasn't healthy for the community. I'm like a super saiyan. I don't let things shut me down. I get stronger from experience. I already told u I have analyzed what to do from that infinite. That was the first time I played the best Dk.