The Ultimate Life Form ~ Shadow the Hedgehog for Smash Ultimate! (Maria...)

[7NATOR]

So I think with Pyra/Mythra's Inclusion, I think this might be good news for Shadow.

I think with Rex being a Bonus Costume for the FP1, there by being related to the DLC, I think it does hurt the argument for Tails and Knuckles being costumes meaning no new Sonic characters

It's arguable that Joker's Pack might have come before it was fully decided to greenlit FP2. As we see with both ARMS and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 getting content around the launch of the game, including Mii Costumes, Spirits, and Music (in Xenoblade's case), Even if all of the Fighters in FP2 were planned around the same time as FP1, that it doesn't mean FP2 would have actually happened

Personally, Taking into account all the comments Sakurai has made, and other miscellaneous things, here is where I see how FP2 was being made

-Sometime after January 11th of 2018, DLC was approved of without the Developers will. There may have already been talks for the characters in the DLC, but after January, those plans were now starting to be envisioned to Reality

-Steve, who was already in talks, was probably delayed in terms of him being Implemented ,and Banjo was used instead since he's Popular and Nintendo were already talking to Microsoft.

-Hero and Sephiroth were probably both planned for the game, and Hero was decided to be in FP1, with Sephiroth coming later

-Steve and Sephiroth likely would have been included even if FP2 wasn't a thing, since perhaps their negotiations surrounding their content were already in production and it did not follow through. Sakurai made the statement that intially he thought "1-2 Extra fighters would suffice" and it might have been these 2

-ARMS and Xenoblade Chronicles 2, which were games that couldn't be considered for Base roster, had content added in base game, but it does seem like even around Launch, that there were already Ideas of who to represent these games if they did get Fighters

Pyra/Mythra were not Mii costumes, while Rex and Nia were, and Min Min wasn't a costume unlike Spring Man and Ribbon Girl (along with Spring Man being an Assist). Sakurai did say that he was considering Min Min or Ninjara, so I think this might add up

-When FP2 was fully greenlit, it was decided that these 2 games would get Fighters



Now there are 2 Fighters left, and I think these 2 Fighters could be in a situation different from the 4 we already have gotten. I think Shadow could be one of these last 2 Fighters, and I'll explain the reasoning here

-By the time of January 11th 2018 or after, The base game content was already decided upon, which includes the Assists and Spirits. Pretty much the Base game was made without the intention that there would be DLC

-Shadow is a Veteran Assist Trophy, and a very popular one at that. If you notice with the Assists we have in Ultimate, both New and old, Alot of them are very popular characters in some ways. Alot of the Veteran Assist trophies that got cut were not the most popular (not in a bad way, just not as much priorty). This includes Tingle, Magnus, and Saki

-If there was no intention of DLC intially, than I can't imagine Shadow would have his assist removed, when he is not in the same league as characters like Tingle, Magnus, and Saki, but higher than that. If DLC did not happen, than Shadow would get a downgrade in his role, which with his popularity and relevance to his series doesn't make sense

-as an example, if FP1 was all we got, and Sephiroth was not in the game in some form, than it wouldn't be weird since Sephiroth hasn't made an appearance in Smash up until that point, but Shadow has been in the game since Brawl, so if he was taken out completely, only for there to be no Further DLC, it would be weird

-Negotiations for the Sonic Content was probably already done when the Base game was underway, and before DLC was greenlit sometime after January of 2018. Compare this to Minecraft and the Additional FF7 Content. Nintendo might have already started to get access to content from those Franchises to be in the game once the DLC was decided to be a thing, so if they were not implemented at all, then it would have been a Waste on Nintendo's Terms

However with Sonic, all the content negotiated was probably already implemented, So even if there wasn't a FP2, It would not have been a waste on Nintendo's part since the Sonic content is already in the game.

-However, it's very possible that Perhaps it may have been decided and/or plans to add in Shadow if Further DLC was a thing, just like the case with Min Min and Pyra/Mythra, though unlike those cases, Shadow was probably considered but not added to the base roster plan, unlike with Min Min and Pyra/Mythra who couldn't be considered at all for Base roster, so in Shadow's case, it would be a case of Reconsideration, or a True Second Chance

-Microsoft and Square both got 2 Characters because there were talks regarding 2 or more characters. Sega got one with Joker (through Atlus), and it's very possible that's not all that was discussed, which is where Shadow would come in

-Since Sonic Content has been negotiated before in the base game, including Shadow, than it would be much easier to re-negotiate for a Full Fighter

Pretty much, the idea is that Shadow could have been reconsidered as a Fighter when Nintendo decided to have DLC sometime after January of 2018.

I don't think he was as much Priority as Steve and Sephiroth, since Shadow himself, along with the other Sonic characters and content were already in the game in some form, where as Steve and Sephiroth were not in the game and if Negotiations were far enough, it would be a waste on Nintendo's Part

However with a Full FP2 in production, Since the Sonic content has been negotiated before, it would be very easy on Nintendo's end to negotiate for character like Shadow for FP2



Now Why would Shadow have been reconsidered, well here's my opinions as to why

-Shadow's popularity within Smash was at his highest during Ultimate's Lifecycle. Now yes alot of it came with the idea he'd be an echo Fighter, but if Shadow wasn't already popular in the past, he would not have blown up as much as he did. The Echo fighter thing was what made Shadow seem like a Realizable idea, when previously that wasn't the case, and especially after Richter showed up, that's when he started heavily blowing up

-Sonic has been more relevant these days then back then. The last game that came out before the Project Plan finished was Sonic Boom, and we all know what that did to Sonic's Reputation. Sonic Dash came out that year too, but that was it's first year

Now Sonic Mania was a thing, the Mobile games like Sonic Dash and Sonic Forces Speed battle really set in their popularity, and while Sonic Forces was definitely controversial and kind of mediocre, it still did really good for Sega apparently and stuff like that. the Movie was also in production around this time and other games like Team Sonic racing and Mario and Sonic Olympics

-Perhaps DLC was a better avenue for a character like Shadow, since Sonic was already in the game. The Base roster was limited, and the one 3rd party franchise was a new one in Castlevania, which means perhaps new audiences coming to the game and such.

Ken and Richter were echo Fighters, So there wasn't as much time put into them as it would be a character like Sephiroth.

I think it's also apparent in that FP1, all the 3rd party franchises were all new, and it was only with FP2 that we started getting Unique characters from represented 3rd parties. It seems that the New 3rd party franchises were a priorty

-There's also the possibility that Shadow might have been too complicated for the time to implement into the base roster as well, with all the Content that needed to be included and everything. Consider that the Newcomers in Base Ultimate aren't as complex as the DLC Fighters have been in terms of mechanics

Shadow's toolset Would require alot of balancing because it be very easy for him to be overpowered otherwise, and Perhaps the mechanics themselves would need time to be implemented

That might add to the possibility that perhaps Shadow's Assist 2nd phase, which was added to Ultimate, was a way of testing out how a Chaos Control move would work if he was added as Playable. Shadow's Timestop mechanic in his 2nd phase of his Assist trophy is only seen with Shadow's Assist trophy in Ultimate. This particular mechanic has not been seen anywhere else in the franchise, as all other time affecting stuff only Slow down the opponent, not completely stop them in Time.

Pretty much, Shadow got more popular within Smash community in Ultimate's Lifecycle, and Sonic as a franchise has been more relevant than it was when the Project Plan for Ultimate was complemented. DLC also allows more time to be put into Shadow's potential moveset, since I imagine his moveset would have a lot of Complicated variables to implement


that's my speculation, at least for Shadow.

 

[millsfan]

I agree with your points, and also know his moveset would get more love with solely focusing on DLC. Shadow was always popular since brawl, but ultimate made him even more popular.

Perhaps after fp2, the supposed 3 extra datamined slots could be upgrading the 3 assist trophies people freaked out about more than others.

Shadow, Isaac, and waluigi.

Fp2 focused on adding stuff that wasn’t done for base game.. how about fp3 pleases the fans of assist trophy characters we have wanted to play as since brawl?

 

[Heoj]

Yo, i definitely support shadow, or any other sonic character(except amy), Shadow used to be my most wanted in Brawl, as a kid i remember always pausing the screen when shadows assist trophy would show up and id just look at all his poses. Nowadays he prob in my top 10 of most wanted. So if someone could add me to the support list that would be cool.

Also, the next Death Battle is confirmed to be Shadow vs Ryuko so thats cool!

If you arent familiar with death battle, heres their youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/screwattack

 

[7NATOR]

I agree with your points, and also know his moveset would get more love with solely focusing on DLC. Shadow was always popular since brawl, but ultimate made him even more popular.

Perhaps after fp2, the supposed 3 extra datamined slots could be upgrading the 3 assist trophies people freaked out about more than others.

Shadow, Isaac, and waluigi.

Fp2 focused on adding stuff that wasn’t done for base game.. how about fp3 pleases the fans of assist trophy characters we have wanted to play as since brawl?

That would be swell. the only thing is that with the way Sakurai has been wording things, FP3 seems heavily unlikely. Development seems to be winding down and coming to a Close after these Last 2

I do think we will get at least one Assist Trophy promotion, there's been rumors, some implications of one happening, as well as the fact that the Popular Assist characters have alot of merit in their favor anyway

I lean on Shadow or Waluigi more than Isaac though. I still do think Shadow will be in, heavily confident in him.

Also did you guys see the Dark Pit glitch, It's possible it could be for Shadow since like Dark Pit's arrows, Shadow has been able to Aim and Control his Spears even after Firing. they have also had homing capabilities in the past. I don't think the one glitch with the Projectiles missing Head hitboxes apply to him though

Yo, i definitely support shadow, or any other sonic character(except amy), Shadow used to be my most wanted in Brawl, as a kid i remember always pausing the screen when shadows assist trophy would show up and id just look at all his poses. Nowadays he prob in my top 10 of most wanted. So if someone could add me to the support list that would be cool.

Also, the next Death Battle is confirmed to be Shadow vs Ryuko so thats cool!
View attachment 306530

If you arent familiar with death battle, heres their youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/screwattack

I haven't watched Death Battle in a long while, I should go back to it though because I have seen interesting matchups

I really hope Shadow does not take another L. He's already lost Twice, so doing it a third time will just seem so unfortunate. I have watched Kill la Kill and of course Played Sonic and know the lore.

Shadow should body Ryuko, just from the Stats. Shadow also I think has Superior abilities anyway, especially Chaos Control and such, and we see he can do it without an Emerald also

 

[millsfan]

If we got an assist, I’d love for it to be shadow, but waluigi is more requested. Shadow is second in line (in my opinion). If there’s no fp3 assist upgrades, then I’m not counting on shadow. Fp1 had new third party and one Nintendo rep, fp2 added reps that did not make it to base game. Now we need fp3 to upgrade popular assist chars people flipped out about that were still assist trophies.

While discussing shadow and Isaac, interesting they were revealed last and are different than their previous assist counterparts. They definitely gave them more love...they know they’re popular. Time to upgrade them nintendo. We all saw the bad reactions to waluigi, shadow, and isaacs assist trophies

 

[7NATOR]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So these are both of the Glitches that are gaining traction, And in here I'll explain why I think both Glitches could point to Shadow the Hedgehog

The Dark Pit glitch is about the arrow that he is Shooting. It seems to be about the property of the Arrow since it specifically works with Dark Pit and not other arrow users. It also doesn't work with Pit, who has similar properties to Dark Pit, but not the same, so here's what we could assume

-This Projectile might be able to be Aimed before Firing

-This Projectile can also be Steered even after firing

-The Projectile might be able to Embed in surfaces or opponents

-However, this doesn't have the Freeflow steering property of Pit's arrows that allow 180's, but more constrained steering property similiar to Dark Pit

Chaos Spear is a move that has some of these properties. Not only has Shadow been shown to use different variations of Chaos Spear and different aiming techniques, but Chaos Spears have had homing capabilities in the past as well, where Shadow steers where the projectiles go

It also is more similar to Dark Pit's in Aiming and steering the Projectiles, not like Pit's more freeflow style

It's also been shown to embed in Surfaces in the Past. Sonic Generations and Sonic Boom where games where the Spears can embed itself for a time, just like how the Arrows embed in Dark Pit.

Now for the Projectile glitch. the Glitch happens when Moving forward or Dashing it seems. While previously it seemed to only be Head hitboxes, in the update you can see it also works with any type of hitbox. Does Shadow have some Mechanic and move that allows him to do something like this, Yes (Kind of)

Light Speed Dash Is a move that both Sonic and Shadow can use that allows them to Dash at the speed of Light. Typically this move activates when there are rings close by

However since Smash doesn't have Rings like Sonic games do, in Implementing a move like this, creative liberties might be taken, and this is where this glitch comes in

Perhaps Shadow might instead Light Speed dash whenever Projectiles come towards his way. Now whether this be a Special Move, or some type of Passive ability, I'm not sure, but this could be a way to implement the Light Speed dash that compliments the Smash gameplay.

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Spear

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Light_Speed_Dash

Some of this might be a stretch, but I do think there could be reason both these glitches could point towards mechanics that Shadow might have

 

[millsfan]

I’d live for him to be playable but if there’s only 2 spots (and I feel Sakurai doesn’t like sonic). I just want an assist char dlc. Shadow would be popular for that pack.

 

[ivanlerma]

Hello Shadow Fans, did anyone here saw the recent Death Battle with Shadow? This is his third appearance in the series since Season 3.

Shadow VS Ryuko (Sonic the Hedgehog VS Kill la Kill) | DEATH BATTLE!

Get extra perks as a Death Battle CHAMPION: https://www.youtube.com/deathbattle/join►Click to SUBSCRIBE: http://bit.ly/SubToDeathBattleOFFICIAL DEATH BATTLE ...

youtu.be

 

[millsfan]

No I did not watch. I want to watch him be playable in ultimate

 

[7NATOR]

Hello Shadow Fans, did anyone here saw the recent Death Battle with Shadow? This is his third appearance in the series since Season 3.

Shadow VS Ryuko (Sonic the Hedgehog VS Kill la Kill) | DEATH BATTLE!

Get extra perks as a Death Battle CHAMPION: https://www.youtube.com/deathbattle/join►Click to SUBSCRIBE: http://bit.ly/SubToDeathBattleOFFICIAL DEATH BATTLE ...

youtu.be

I watched it

Spoiler: My Thoughts

I'm so glad that Shadow finally got a Win on Death Battle. I watched Kill La Kill, so I have an idea of what Ryuko was capable of (though I did forget some details though), but I figured Shadow would be too fast for her, Plus he has more Hax Abilities like Slowing down time and such

Still didn't mean I wasn't scared that somehow she would somehow pull the win, but I'm glad that Shadow did win. It was at the cost of killing his Waifu Unfortunately, and Ryuko herself is a very cool character, so her dying was kind of sad. I also wish they acknowledge his liking of Kill La Kill in the actual animation, but I imagine they couldn't fit that into this scenario of the both of them wanting to kill each other. Glad Shadow got mad at someone saying "Sayonara" to him though

Also, I think Shadow should have a rematch against Mewtwo. Shadow should be able to beat Mewtwo. No chance against Vegeta though, especially now with Super

 

[millsfan]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

My fav vid

 

[millsfan]

Be sure to show your support for shadow whenever Sakurai tweets about sonic

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1397779600432791552

Best recommendation for movesets https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5jOLqpY3Dj4

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

 

[millsfan]

Edit- not sure why my posts separated into 2 posts

https://mobile.twitter.com/Vlaedx/status/1403779276198105088

Make sure you make your voice heard on social media for shadow. I just stumbled upon this thread.
I’m always voicing my want for shadow on nintendos social media, you never know where it could go. Their bio says “remember, we’re listening”

 

[7NATOR]

So in like 7 Hours from the time of this post, E3 Nintendo presentation will be airing

I usually write long winded posts, but I don't have much to say. I think I rather the presentation do the talking. While most people still don't believe Shadow can be in FP2, There still lot of supporters though. I'm glad we still have supporters that visit the thread, even if it's like a graveyard

I see today as Do or Die for Shadow. Even as someone that has been predicting him for FP2, if he doesn't show up, I'll give up (even if there is only one reveal). If he does show up, I'm still gonna be shocked because Dreams usually don't be come reality, I actually don't know How I'll handle it

Good luck, and hope we can win among the chaos of Smash possibilities

 

[Inferno7]

Bump
With Kazuya being one of the last two, I think this heavily favors Shadow as our last pick, and I'll explain why in this post.

>Sakurai seems to like edgy characters
yeah this one should be obvious, we just got Joker, Kazuya & Sephiroth as DLC when he could've chosen other characters from their series. Let's not forget he also praised Iori's design and favors Dark Pit greatly. Also Dark Samus & Wolf.

>He likes to go for the antagonists/rivals
Akin to the first point we went from like, what, barely having Bowser & Ganon as our true villains to being able to play as Dark Samus, Ridley, Wario, Dark Pit, Wolf, Ken, Sephiroth, Bowser Jr./Koopalings, Meta Knight, Dedede, Piranha Plant, K. Rool and the Minecraft alts. This game has by far the richest and most diverse roster as far as villains or opposing forces are concerned. Shadow fits both the rival and antagonist bill.

>Shadow fits the second chance thematic like a glove
Self-explanatory, if it wasn't for the AT you can bet Shadow would be heavily speculated as well, but the same did happen for all the DLCs that came before in FP2. This ''second chance'' thing has been a current thematic for 5 times in a row, the last fighter not being able to replicate it would seem like a stretch at this point.
-ARMS & XC2 reps were considered for base game but scrapped due to timing
-Steve was negotiated for 5 years
-Sephiroth fixed FF7's representation
-Tekken was considered but ultimately scrapped because Sakurai couldn't make Heihachi work at first
A Sonic rep has been very heavily requested for ages and it's possible Shadow couldn't be included in base game because he was planned to be an echo, to which Sega didn't agree with. Considering other 3rd franchises have gotten a fighter before Sonic did this isn't a stretch, not because of quotas or anything but rather out of merits, fan requests and such. Sega also has been the most loyal 3rd party company (perfect attendance) in the franchise and Nintendo already ''rewarded'' Namco, which could mean they could do the same with Sega in this game as our first company with 4 reps.

>All the DLCs in FP2 have broken a precedent rule
-Min Min and Pythra broke the no main character rule
-Nobody thought Steve was coming and they stopped talking about him after Banjo, because; he was too PC and western heavy, meme request, Microsoft won't get 2 reps, hard to adapt, he's a non character, etc.
-Sephiroth? not real need to explain, he broke a crap ton of perceived rules; people thought he wouldn't get in due to Square being petty, English VAs were nowhere to be seen, balancing nightmare, lack of requests, other FF would get in, no 2nd unique third party character, etc.
-People thought we wouldn't get a XC2 rep due to the mii
-Kazuya ultimately broke the mii costume thematic/timing rule, so the Sonic miis in FP1 don't matter at all in this regard
-Shadow himself has not gotten mii'd in spite of being one of the most requested Sonic characters over the years
That being said Shadow would break the AT rule which has been a long-standing one, but so far it's just a precedent that could be easily justified for him in particular.

>Arle doesn't seem to be coming so very little competence from Sega atm
-She doesn't fit the second chance theory imo
-Harada's tweet, although this could be a troll
-Sonic is the best selling Sega franchise nonetheless, having 360 million over the 25 million that Puyo Puyo has
only real competence seems to be Tails, Eggman didn't gather enough support before DLC

Now regarding Shadow's AT;
-Alucard is coded to not appear in Wii Fit Stage, so a DLC fighter could easily get the same treatment if he was an AT beforehand
-No real need to code the game anyway since they could call the AT a Shadow Android and call it a day
-His AT got upgraded and he has 2 spirits, one of which is Legend class which could mean he was given priority. So far the best treatment a character can get without being playable (aside from mii costumes which usually deconfirm a specific fighter).

all things considered, here's a summary
-Shadow has his own merits to get in over Eggman & Tails, and such arguments against him wouldn't even matter since Sakurai likes to go with unexpected picks (and certainly the community has overlooked his inclusion, deeming him as impossible)
-He fits perfectly in this pass
-Been requested since Brawl
-Sonic absolutely deserves another rep and could've been planned for base game or neglected
-Sakurai likes edgy characters and rivals
-Easy to work with and would sell well
-He could come with a gimmick which would be Chaos Control and very magic-esque moves from Sonic Battle which are currently lacking in the roster, since so far every DLC character has come with something that makes them unique
-FP2 was made with base game in consideration and wasn't planned when ATs were added
-Comes from a franchise already represented, which makes me think was the reason why they put Tekken as our E3 reveal instead since it would introduce a new fanbase to the game
-Not sure if it matters at this point but there hasn't been any Sega mii costumes in FP2 yet, which is suspicious at best
-Safe pick and the AT rule being broken at the very end seems fitting, along with him being the ''Ultimate Lifeform''

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I will say I agree with the sentiment that Shadow not being a Sonic echo or even semi-clone is a huge missed opportunity

 

[Janx_uwu]

I appreciate the optimism of others in this thread and wish I could share it, but I don't see Shadow happening in this last character slot and I think it's time to throw in the towel. Shadow is an Assist Trophy, which may not seem like something that holds him back too much considering all of the evidence for Waluigi. But when you realize that there are several other Assist Trophies that would be more warranted of an uprgrade than Shadow, and only one slot left and that's it for DLC, I really cannot possibly imagine Shadow getting in. At best Waluigi will get in as the final fighter and we get a third Fighter's Pass, but I seriously doubt that.
Like I've said before though-if there is an echoes pass then he's 100% in unless they go for Metal Sonic instead.

 

[7NATOR]

Bump
With Kazuya being one of the last two, I think this heavily favors Shadow as our last pick, and I'll explain why in this post.

>Sakurai seems to like edgy characters
yeah this one should be obvious, we just got Joker, Kazuya & Sephiroth as DLC when he could've chosen other characters from their series. Let's not forget he also praised Iori's design and favors Dark Pit greatly. Also Dark Samus & Wolf.

>He likes to go for the antagonists/rivals
Akin to the first point we went from like, what, barely having Bowser & Ganon as our true villains to being able to play as Dark Samus, Ridley, Wario, Dark Pit, Wolf, Ken, Sephiroth, Bowser Jr./Koopalings, Meta Knight, Dedede, Piranha Plant, K. Rool and the Minecraft alts. This game has by far the richest and most diverse roster as far as villains or opposing forces are concerned. Shadow fits both the rival and antagonist bill.

>Shadow fits the second chance thematic like a glove
Self-explanatory, if it wasn't for the AT you can bet Shadow would be heavily speculated as well, but the same did happen for all the DLCs that came before in FP2. This ''second chance'' thing has been a current thematic for 5 times in a row, the last fighter not being able to replicate it would seem like a stretch at this point.
-ARMS & XC2 reps were considered for base game but scrapped due to timing
-Steve was negotiated for 5 years
-Sephiroth fixed FF7's representation
-Tekken was considered but ultimately scrapped because Sakurai couldn't make Heihachi work at first
A Sonic rep has been very heavily requested for ages and it's possible Shadow couldn't be included in base game because he was planned to be an echo, to which Sega didn't agree with. Considering other 3rd franchises have gotten a fighter before Sonic did this isn't a stretch, not because of quotas or anything but rather out of merits, fan requests and such. Sega also has been the most loyal 3rd party company (perfect attendance) in the franchise and Nintendo already ''rewarded'' Namco, which could mean they could do the same with Sega in this game as our first company with 4 reps.

>All the DLCs in FP2 have broken a precedent rule
-Min Min and Pythra broke the no main character rule
-Nobody thought Steve was coming and they stopped talking about him after Banjo, because; he was too PC and western heavy, meme request, Microsoft won't get 2 reps, hard to adapt, he's a non character, etc.
-Sephiroth? not real need to explain, he broke a crap ton of perceived rules; people thought he wouldn't get in due to Square being petty, English VAs were nowhere to be seen, balancing nightmare, lack of requests, other FF would get in, no 2nd unique third party character, etc.
-People thought we wouldn't get a XC2 rep due to the mii
-Kazuya ultimately broke the mii costume thematic/timing rule, so the Sonic miis in FP1 don't matter at all in this regard
-Shadow himself has not gotten mii'd in spite of being one of the most requested Sonic characters over the years
That being said Shadow would break the AT rule which has been a long-standing one, but so far it's just a precedent that could be easily justified for him in particular.

>Arle doesn't seem to be coming so very little competence from Sega atm
-She doesn't fit the second chance theory imo
-Harada's tweet, although this could be a troll
-Sonic is the best selling Sega franchise nonetheless, having 360 million over the 25 million that Puyo Puyo has
only real competence seems to be Tails, Eggman didn't gather enough support before DLC

Now regarding Shadow's AT;
-Alucard is coded to not appear in Wii Fit Stage, so a DLC fighter could easily get the same treatment if he was an AT beforehand
-No real need to code the game anyway since they could call the AT a Shadow Android and call it a day
-His AT got upgraded and he has 2 spirits, one of which is Legend class which could mean he was given priority. So far the best treatment a character can get without being playable (aside from mii costumes which usually deconfirm a specific fighter).

all things considered, here's a summary
-Shadow has his own merits to get in over Eggman & Tails, and such arguments against him wouldn't even matter since Sakurai likes to go with unexpected picks (and certainly the community has overlooked his inclusion, deeming him as impossible)
-He fits perfectly in this pass
-Been requested since Brawl
-Sonic absolutely deserves another rep and could've been planned for base game or neglected
-Sakurai likes edgy characters and rivals
-Easy to work with and would sell well
-He could come with a gimmick which would be Chaos Control and very magic-esque moves from Sonic Battle which are currently lacking in the roster, since so far every DLC character has come with something that makes them unique
-FP2 was made with base game in consideration and wasn't planned when ATs were added
-Comes from a franchise already represented, which makes me think was the reason why they put Tekken as our E3 reveal instead since it would introduce a new fanbase to the game
-Not sure if it matters at this point but there hasn't been any Sega mii costumes in FP2 yet, which is suspicious at best
-Safe pick and the AT rule being broken at the very end seems fitting, along with him being the ''Ultimate Lifeform''

I feel like it's possible the Shadow echo idea didn't go far at all. I'd be honest and say that considering Shadow matches Sonic's Body type and could use the same abilities, it was considered. I don't think even just Sega disagreed, but perhaps Sakurai as well.

And yeah, Eggman didn't have the most support of Sonic characters before FP2, but I think his individual merits outside of Requests shouldn't be underestimated. I think especially since the Sonic Movie was taken into Account (well at least the fact it exists), and Eggman was in there when other characters weren't (Besides you know who at the end), and just his frequent apperances, it's something to keep in Mind. I still don't think he'd be the Sonic character chosen though

Otherwise I do agree with this sentiment. Here are some things I want to add to it

-The 3rd Party characters represented in here have been on average bigger deals than the ones in FP1, whether in the comparison on Company origin or Genre Origin

Steve is a Bigger deal than Banjo
Sephiroth is a Bigger deal than Hero, globally (Hero probably bigger deal in the East)
Kazuya is a bigger deal than Terry (Not Same company, but similar appeal to Fighting game players)

The thing I've been thinking about is that I think part of the reason Nintendo was confident in a 2nd pass, besides the fact that Ultimate and FP1 sold well, was that they had higher caliber characters that they had a chance to include.

I Imagine the characters in FP2 would have had higher priority for inclusion, if not for certain reasons. Steve and Kazuya were probably because of Developmental reasons with Movesets, as in comparison Banjo and Terry are less Complex characters to develop. With Sephiroth and Hero, DQ 11 was more relevant during Pass 1 like how FF7 Remake was more relevant in Pass 2 (and Square and/or Nintendo probably wanted to capitalize on this), plus With Dragon Quest being a New Franchise, they may have tried to get more new people in intially

Another Sonic character could fit into the situation of Sephiroth. Persona 5 was a big game and Definitely made Persona more of a household name, along with being a new franchise to Smash, so they wanted to capitalize. Sonic would be more relevant in Pass 2 due to the Sonic 30th anniversary happening around Pass 2. Sonic characters are bigger deals than Persona

-Shadow's Assist uses a Timestop mechanic exclusive only to his Assist in this game. This exclusivity isn't just in Smash Ultimate, but across the entire series, so one could make a theory that maybe they were testing the waters of potential mechanic he have in the future

-Shadow is the Favorite character of Head of Sonic Team (or Sonic Studio), Iizuka

However, there is something that I Might be worried about, or Potentially excited about

-Sonic Colors Ultimate is coming out in September, 7, 2021 (which actually could line up with September Direct, where we get out last DLC Character). This is a remaster that has extra features. While It's unknown Shadow would be in it (I'm not sure about that, despite the Ultimate in the title), There is one character we know will show up who's exclusive to this version: Metal Sonic

-Metal Sonic has been getting used very frequently since the Mid 2000's, ever since his Reapperance in Sonic Heroes. More importantly, Recently he's not only in Sonic Colors Ultimate, but he's also in the Animated series to advertise the game, Sonic Colors: Rise of the Wips, but he's been making frequent appearances in recent games

-To bring this to something Smash related, You guys might have heard that there was a Particular Smash Mod taken down in March of 2020, titled Legacy XP. This takedown of course can be just Nintendo doing Nintendo things, however there has been interest in this takedown, especially when a Prominent Smash Speculator, Papagenos, In July was talking about 100% real Evidence that pointed towards certain characters: Waluigi and/or Geno, and "Other Unlikely characters". People speculated this was talking about Legacy XP, and if that's true, the other characters that would fit this would be both Metal Sonic and Shadow

-There's also the Bonus slot thing that was found on the websites, that could point to some sort of Bonus content we don't know about yet, with many speculating on a Bonus Fighter

If this were to all correlate in something, with the Takedown and the Bonus Fighter slot thing, it's possible that this could imply both Shadow and Metal Sonic, Likely with Shadow being the main character, and Metal being the Bonus (perhaps Echo) fighter

Metal as an Echo is somewhat both understandable and not understandable. Metal does have his own abilities like Flying, Shooting Lasers, and his Black Shield.

However he has played like Sonic in games before (but to be fair, who hasn't), He has similar body type, And his Main purpose is to emulate and Surpass Sonic at his own game.

If he were an Echo Fighter, he would work as a Bonus Perfectly. He could be free for those who bought FP2, but for those who didn't, he could be separate purchase, but unlike usual other echo ideas, he's both connected to the Franchise getting the Challenger Pack (so it could technically still be only 1 character/DLC left), but he also is not Echoing the DLC Character, so there's no obstacle of finding a way to make him purchasable by people who maybe don't buy the challenger pack

The thing I'm worried about is that Metal Sonic just happened to be the character we get as CP11. Metal Sonic is cool, but Shadow is our Most wanted character, so it be weird. and also of course, all of this speculation might be for naught, as Nintendo/Sakurai and the team might go in a different direction for CP11. There are lots of characters to consider after all

Hope you found interesting

 

[Inferno7]

I feel like it's possible the Shadow echo idea didn't go far at all. I'd be honest and say that considering Shadow matches Sonic's Body type and could use the same abilities, it was considered. I don't think even just Sega disagreed, but perhaps Sakurai as well.

And yeah, Eggman didn't have the most support of Sonic characters before FP2, but I think his individual merits outside of Requests shouldn't be underestimated. I think especially since the Sonic Movie was taken into Account (well at least the fact it exists), and Eggman was in there when other characters weren't (Besides you know who at the end), and just his frequent apperances, it's something to keep in Mind. I still don't think he'd be the Sonic character chosen though

Otherwise I do agree with this sentiment. Here are some things I want to add to it

-The 3rd Party characters represented in here have been on average bigger deals than the ones in FP1, whether in the comparison on Company origin or Genre Origin

Steve is a Bigger deal than Banjo
Sephiroth is a Bigger deal than Hero, globally (Hero probably bigger deal in the East)
Kazuya is a bigger deal than Terry (Not Same company, but similar appeal to Fighting game players)

The thing I've been thinking about is that I think part of the reason Nintendo was confident in a 2nd pass, besides the fact that Ultimate and FP1 sold well, was that they had higher caliber characters that they had a chance to include.

I Imagine the characters in FP2 would have had higher priority for inclusion, if not for certain reasons. Steve and Kazuya were probably because of Developmental reasons with Movesets, as in comparison Banjo and Terry are less Complex characters to develop. With Sephiroth and Hero, DQ 11 was more relevant during Pass 1 like how FF7 Remake was more relevant in Pass 2 (and Square and/or Nintendo probably wanted to capitalize on this), plus With Dragon Quest being a New Franchise, they may have tried to get more new people in intially

Another Sonic character could fit into the situation of Sephiroth. Persona 5 was a big game and Definitely made Persona more of a household name, along with being a new franchise to Smash, so they wanted to capitalize. Sonic would be more relevant in Pass 2 due to the Sonic 30th anniversary happening around Pass 2. Sonic characters are bigger deals than Persona

-Shadow's Assist uses a Timestop mechanic exclusive only to his Assist in this game. This exclusivity isn't just in Smash Ultimate, but across the entire series, so one could make a theory that maybe they were testing the waters of potential mechanic he have in the future

-Shadow is the Favorite character of Head of Sonic Team (or Sonic Studio), Iizuka

However, there is something that I Might be worried about, or Potentially excited about

-Sonic Colors Ultimate is coming out in September, 7, 2021 (which actually could line up with September Direct, where we get out last DLC Character). This is a remaster that has extra features. While It's unknown Shadow would be in it (I'm not sure about that, despite the Ultimate in the title), There is one character we know will show up who's exclusive to this version: Metal Sonic

-Metal Sonic has been getting used very frequently since the Mid 2000's, ever since his Reapperance in Sonic Heroes. More importantly, Recently he's not only in Sonic Colors Ultimate, but he's also in the Animated series to advertise the game, Sonic Colors: Rise of the Wips, but he's been making frequent appearances in recent games

-To bring this to something Smash related, You guys might have heard that there was a Particular Smash Mod taken down in March of 2020, titled Legacy XP. This takedown of course can be just Nintendo doing Nintendo things, however there has been interest in this takedown, especially when a Prominent Smash Speculator, Papagenos, In July was talking about 100% real Evidence that pointed towards certain characters: Waluigi and/or Geno, and "Other Unlikely characters". People speculated this was talking about Legacy XP, and if that's true, the other characters that would fit this would be both Metal Sonic and Shadow

-There's also the Bonus slot thing that was found on the websites, that could point to some sort of Bonus content we don't know about yet, with many speculating on a Bonus Fighter

If this were to all correlate in something, with the Takedown and the Bonus Fighter slot thing, it's possible that this could imply both Shadow and Metal Sonic, Likely with Shadow being the main character, and Metal being the Bonus (perhaps Echo) fighter

Metal as an Echo is somewhat both understandable and not understandable. Metal does have his own abilities like Flying, Shooting Lasers, and his Black Shield.

However he has played like Sonic in games before (but to be fair, who hasn't), He has similar body type, And his Main purpose is to emulate and Surpass Sonic at his own game.

If he were an Echo Fighter, he would work as a Bonus Perfectly. He could be free for those who bought FP2, but for those who didn't, he could be separate purchase, but unlike usual other echo ideas, he's both connected to the Franchise getting the Challenger Pack (so it could technically still be only 1 character/DLC left), but he also is not Echoing the DLC Character, so there's no obstacle of finding a way to make him purchasable by people who maybe don't buy the challenger pack

The thing I'm worried about is that Metal Sonic just happened to be the character we get as CP11. Metal Sonic is cool, but Shadow is our Most wanted character, so it be weird. and also of course, all of this speculation might be for naught, as Nintendo/Sakurai and the team might go in a different direction for CP11. There are lots of characters to consider after all

Hope you found interesting

I don't think the bonus rumor or Metal Sonic are happening tbh, to include the long awaited second rep only for him to not be a popular request and literally have ''Sonic'' in his name would piss off a lot of people I imagine. I also don't think he would get in before his creator did. The takedown is just Nintendo being Nintendo, it happens all the time.

Eggman does have merits, but he for sure would be harder to implement as a fighter and I think Shadow would seem more reasonable for Sakurai overall, since he's the 2nd most popular Sonic character, so I feel like Sega would push for the latter more if they got a fighter (all things considered, the main character rule has been broken many times so it's pretty much anyone's game in terms of merits of importance in their home series). In the end it comes down to who does the madlad want to add first, he does like edgy characters and I forgot to mention he did consider Alucard who has a pretty dark design, which is why I'm inclined to think he'd go for Sonic's rival first. You really can't go wrong with ''the Ultimate'' Lifeform for this game.

Thanks for pointing out the ''bigger deal'' part, I feel like many people tend to overlook how all the 3rd parties in this pass so far come from big franchises that belong to companies already present in the game (Tekken, FF7 & Minecraft are gaming titans in their own right). Simply put Sonic would be a good contrast to Persona which is owned by a subsidiary of Sega.

There's literally nothing against Shadow save for the Assist Trophy rule, otherwise he perfectly fits in this pass and checks all the boxes. Not wanting to say he's a guaranteed or anything, but his chances seem to be far greater than ever and there's lots of info to back it up.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Shadow and friends having a night out.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Perkilator]

SA2's anniversary

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Still sad Shadow was an Assist Trophy again when an Echo Fighter seemed like a no-brainer.

 

[millsfan]

Everyone! Please go share your support on this tweet!

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1407579173472796683

Ugh I missed this tweet of course when it was first put out. Would’ve liked if I saw it right away so I could post my message to sakurai regarding Shadow in hopes he’d see it as he made the post.

 

[Inferno7]

Everyone! Please go share your support on this tweet!

https://mobile.twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1407579173472796683

Ugh I missed this tweet of course when it was first put out. Would’ve liked if I saw it right away so I could post my message to sakurai regarding Shadow in hopes he’d see it as he made the post.

yep, already posted there
it's neat that Sakurai even acknowledged Shadow at all tbh, maybe he does care about Sonic more than I thought

 

[Aboyd]

yep, already posted there
it's neat that Sakurai even acknowledged Shadow at all tbh, maybe he does care about Sonic more than I thought

I always felt like he was just limited by what Sega allowed (though the Moveset is still from his preference for Classic games and arcade fighters). There’s even a possible reference in Kid Icarus Uprsiing. One of the sets of claws are the Hedgehog Claws (Rapid Hedgehog Claws in Japan) and what is their main ability? Increased attack speed, increased move speed, and faster charging

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm still not over not getting Shadow as an echo... I don't understand how we got so few, and missed so many clear opportunities... why did they even bother to spend so much time explaining them (I mean, I understand), but without us getting a good handful more?

I don't actually think Sakurai would need to do much oversight to add more in another fighters pass. If echoes are only balanced against their base character, then couldn't he just come up with concepts and be a bit more hands off?

 

[Inferno7]

I'm still not over not getting Shadow as an echo... I don't understand how we got so few, and missed so many clear opportunities... why did they even bother to spend so much time explaining them (I mean, I understand), but without us getting a good handful more?

I don't actually think Sakurai would need to do much oversight to add more in another fighters pass. If echoes are only balanced against their base character, then couldn't he just come up with concepts and be a bit more hands off?

I agree that the concept was wasted in hindsight, but being an echo definitely isn't the end all be all for Shadow, as he can definitely get his own moveset. In fact, every single Smash fangame or mod has given him a rather creative set of tools, why couldn't Ultimate do better?
Now I'm not saying he can't be an echo, but he certainly has what it takes to be unique, just as much as the other popular Sonic candidates do.

 

[Baba]

I'm not a huge Sonic fan but I still think introducing this new "echo fighter" concept and then not adding Shadow as a Sonic echo was one of the dumbest decisions made with this game. Whether it was Nintendo not pursuing it or Sega not allowing it, it was a bad call.

Just give him some different stats and maybe Mewtwo's recovery or Joker's neutral special and you've got a pretty decent representation of Shadow.

I'll never understand why this didn't happen.

 

[Inferno7]

I'm not a huge Sonic fan but I still think introducing this new "echo fighter" concept and then not adding Shadow as a Sonic echo was one of the dumbest decisions made with this game. Whether it was Nintendo not pursuing it or Sega not allowing it, it was a bad call.

Just give him some different stats and maybe Mewtwo's recovery or Joker's neutral special and you've got a pretty decent representation of Shadow.

I'll never understand why this didn't happen.

Agreed tho, some decisions in Ultimate's roster have and will certainly age badly, even if they are very few. Like how they animated half a moveset for Zero only to keep him as an AT, Incineroar getting picked over the more requested Decidueye, Alph still being an alt, shafting Bomberman even when DLC is on the table, etc.

 

[ivanlerma]

Agreed tho, some decisions in Ultimate's roster have and will certainly age badly, even if they are very few. Like how they animated half a moveset for Zero only to keep him as an AT, Incineroar getting picked over the more requested Decidueye, Alph still being an alt, shafting Bomberman even when DLC is on the table, etc.

Basically a plethora of missed opportunities done into this game.

 

[Perkilator]

Agreed tho, some decisions in Ultimate's roster have and will certainly age badly, even if they are very few. Like how they animated half a moveset for Zero only to keep him as an AT, Incineroar getting picked over the more requested Decidueye, Alph still being an alt, shafting Bomberman even when DLC is on the table, etc.

• Incineroar was chosen because Sakurai figured a wrestler would be more interesting
• Assist Trophies have never been DLC in the same game where they were an Assist Trophy

Definitely agree that Alph should’ve been an Echo as well, though

 

[Janx_uwu]

I think Bomberman's costume was both a blessing and a curse for Assist Trophy fans depending on your perspective.
On one hand, it means Sakurai is alright with making a model that looks very similar to an Assist Trophy model playable! This means Shadow or Zero could be added and they wouldn't have to do anything special (like disabling or outright removing the AT's) to prepare!
On the other hand, it means Sakurai does have a no AT promotion rule and wanted to include Bomberman as DLC but simply couldn't given his status. So he gave Bomberman a Mii Costume, with 8 colors just like a Smash fighter, and encouraged players to play as him in X-Bomb only battles.
As much as I want to believe the former, the latter seems much more plausible.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I agree that the concept was wasted in hindsight, but being an echo definitely isn't the end all be all for Shadow, as he can definitely get his own moveset. In fact, every single Smash fangame or mod has given him a rather creative set of tools, why couldn't Ultimate do better?
Now I'm not saying he can't be an echo, but he certainly has what it takes to be unique, just as much as the other popular Sonic candidates do.

Personally- I think his most authentic version IS an echo, considering he was created to be very similar to Sonic. Where needed, it can change a thing or two- but if he doesn't feel VERY, VERY similar to Sonic, to me- it isn't Shadow.

 

[7NATOR]

Personally- I think his most authentic version IS an echo, considering he was created to be very similar to Sonic. Where needed, it can change a thing or two- but if he doesn't feel VERY, VERY similar to Sonic, to me- it isn't Shadow.

Shadow was created to be Similar to Sonic, but not quite the same at the same time.

I think you can still have Shadow be unique while still have Shadow's moves reflect Sonic's in a way. K.Rool kind of does this with Donkey Kong in some of his attacks, where K.Rool uses his own Spin on some of DK's Moves

Overall, I'd Imagine Shadow to have more of an Agressive/Tactical/Straight to the point take on Sonic's Moveset, in terms of how his moves animate and function

 

[pupNapoleon]

Shadow was created to be Similar to Sonic, but not quite the same at the same time.

I think you can still have Shadow be unique while still have Shadow's moves reflect Sonic's in a way.

You could have him unique, absolutely. I just don't think it suits the character well.
As far as any research I've done, and what I remember from his original games (where each character had a direct parallel in playstyle), Shadoow was created to be an evil version of Sonic, who became more of an antihero.

Shadow was created by Takashi Iizuka and Shiro Maekawa, who respectively served as director and writer of Sonic Adventure 2. According to Iizuka, the idea for Shadow originated during development of the original Sonic Adventure in 1998, when Sonic Team intended to introduce a rival for Sonic in a potential sequel. Although they rarely discussed the idea, the staff continually thought about it. Eventually, while work on Sonic Adventure 2 progressed, Sonic Team found use in Shadow when they laid out the game's "good vs. evil" plotlines. Shadow's name at the beginning of development was "Terios" ("reflection of"), referencing his role as Sonic's doppelganger.

 

[millsfan]

Shadow is unique. He is similar in appearance (hedgehog), but he is his own person. He has his own powers. Best reference is watch how he fights in the great sonic fighting game… Sonic Battle.
Then the 2 great smash mods - Smash Legacy XP and Smash flash mod by ZNX

I’ve been wanting Shadow in Smash Bros since Brawl (2007)! Shadow fights with unique chaos abilities, as seen in Sonic Battle on the GBA!



Smash Flash Mod by Znx is a great moveset. Also Smash Bros Legacy xp.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

 

[Inferno7]

Shadow is unique. He is similar in appearance (hedgehog), but he is his own person. He has his own powers. Best reference is watch how he fights in the great sonic fighting game… Sonic Battle.
Then the 2 great smash mods - Smash Legacy XP and Smash flash mod by ZNX

I’ve been wanting Shadow in Smash Bros since Brawl (2007)! Shadow fights with unique chaos abilities, as seen in Sonic Battle on the GBA!



Smash Flash Mod by Znx is a great moveset. Also Smash Bros Legacy xp.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

Legacy XP moveset is so pog, kinda makes me wish he was actually playable in SSF2.

That's one of the reasons why I'm not particularly fond of the idea of Tails getting in as DLC (no offense to his fans), he has been way too overused in Smash fangames and Shadow deserves his chance to shine. Plus I think he'd be cooler to play as.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think two of the most memorable games with Shadow are Heroes and the Adventure Battle series. He plays identically to Sonic, just how he was made.

 

[millsfan]

Blah. I wish we had playable shadow in ultimate so I could be happy. It stinks waiting since brawl. Thatd be crazy if he was the last character, but I know waluigi is more requested.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Blah. I wish we had playable shadow in ultimate so I could be happy. It stinks waiting since brawl. Thatd be crazy if he was the last character, but I know waluigi is more requested.

You thought he would get in during Brawl- when we had two third party characters total?

 

[Inferno7]

Blah. I wish we had playable shadow in ultimate so I could be happy. It stinks waiting since brawl. Thatd be crazy if he was the last character, but I know waluigi is more requested.

Indeed sucks to be a Shadow fan in this day and age, and with one character left things aren't looking very nice
Well, at least there will be Smash 6 and mods in the future, so hopefully we can play as our favorite Hedgehog in the Ultimate Crossover in the distant future.